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Oscillator Discussion Thread

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.

Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby wwei23 » August 20th, 2017, 5:05 pm

dvgrn wrote:Did you try checking the jslife collection before posting your question?

I don't even know what that is.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby muzik » August 20th, 2017, 5:08 pm

wwei23 wrote:
dvgrn wrote:Did you try checking the jslife collection before posting your question?

I don't even know what that is.

Anyone who's wanting to get serious with Life-related technologies probably should.

It's linked in his post, by the way.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby wwei23 » August 20th, 2017, 5:36 pm

Octagon 6:
x = 45, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
4bo12bo9bo12bo$4b3o3b2o3b3o9b3o3b2o3b3o$7bo2b2o2bo15bo2b2o2bo$6b2o6b2o
13b2o6b2o$2o18b2ob2o18b2o$bo6b6o6bo3bo6b6o6bo$bobo3bo6bo3bobo3bobo3bo
6bo3bobo$2b2o2bo8bo2b2o5b2o2bo8bo2b2o$5bo10bo11bo10bo$5bo4b2o4bo11bo
10bo$b2o2bo3bo2bo3bo2b2o3b2o2bo4b2o4bo2b2o$b2o2bo3bo2bo3bo2b2o3b2o2bo
4b2o4bo2b2o$5bo4b2o4bo11bo10bo$5bo10bo11bo10bo$2b2o2bo8bo2b2o5b2o2bo8b
o2b2o$bobo3bo6bo3bobo3bobo3bo6bo3bobo$bo6b6o6bo3bo6b6o6bo$2o18b2ob2o
18b2o$6b2o6b2o13b2o6b2o$7bo2b2o2bo15bo2b2o2bo$4b3o3b2o3b3o9b3o3b2o3b3o
$4bo12bo9bo12bo!

Can anyone fit a still life in here?
x = 24, y = 23, rule = B3/S23
4bo13bo$4b3o9b3o$7bo7bo$6b2o7b2o$2o19b2o$bo6b7o6bo$bobo3bo7bo3bobo$2b
2o2bo9bo2b2o$5bo11bo$5bo11bo$5bo5bo5bo2b2o$5bo4bobo4bo3bo$5bo5bo5bo2bo
$5bo11bo3b3o$5bo11bo5bo$2b2o2bo9bo2b2o$bobo3bo7bo3bobo$bo6b7o6bo$2o19b
2o$6b2o7b2o$7bo7bo$4b3o9b3o$4bo13bo!

Octagon 8:
x = 28, y = 28, rule = B3/S23
12bo2bo$12b4o$6bo14bo$6b3o3b4o3b3o$9bo2bo2bo2bo$8b2o8b2o$2b2o20b2o$3bo
6b8o6bo$3bobo3bo8bo3bobo$4b2o2bo10bo2b2o$7bo12bo$7bo12bo$2ob2o2bo5b2o
5bo2b2ob2o$bobo3bo4bo2bo4bo3bobo$bobo3bo4bo2bo4bo3bobo$2ob2o2bo5b2o5bo
2b2ob2o$7bo12bo$7bo12bo$4b2o2bo10bo2b2o$3bobo3bo8bo3bobo$3bo6b8o6bo$2b
2o20b2o$8b2o8b2o$9bo2bo2bo2bo$6b3o3b4o3b3o$6bo14bo$12b4o$12bo2bo!
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Sokwe » August 20th, 2017, 6:09 pm

wwei23 wrote:Octagon 6... Can anyone fit a still life in here?... Octagon 8

These octagon variants are already well-known. Here is an example pattern from the jslife pattern collection (in osc/o0004.lif):
x = 29, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
5bo$b2obobo4b2obob2o$b2obobo4bob2ob2o3b2o$4bob2o13bo$b4o2bo$o4b18o$b3o
bo17bo$3b3o18bo$5bo19bo2bo$5bo3b2o2b2ob2o2b2o3bob2o$5bo3b2o2b2ob2o2b2o
3bo$b2o2bo19bo$b2o2bo3b2o9b2o3bo$5bo3b2o9b2o3bo$5bo19bo$5bo3b2o2b2ob2o
2b2o3bo$2b2obo3b2o2b2ob2o2b2o3bob2o$2bo2bo19bo2bo$6bo17bo$7bo15bo$8b
15o2$9bo11bo$8b2o3b2ob2o3b2o$13b2ob2o!

Please check jslife before posting.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby wwei23 » August 20th, 2017, 6:20 pm

Sokwe wrote:
wwei23 wrote:Octagon 6... Can anyone fit a still life in here?... Octagon 8

These octagon variants are already well-known. Here is an example pattern from the jslife pattern collection (in osc/o0004.lif):
x = 29, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
5bo$b2obobo4b2obob2o$b2obobo4bob2ob2o3b2o$4bob2o13bo$b4o2bo$o4b18o$b3o
bo17bo$3b3o18bo$5bo19bo2bo$5bo3b2o2b2ob2o2b2o3bob2o$5bo3b2o2b2ob2o2b2o
3bo$b2o2bo19bo$b2o2bo3b2o9b2o3bo$5bo3b2o9b2o3bo$5bo19bo$5bo3b2o2b2ob2o
2b2o3bo$2b2obo3b2o2b2ob2o2b2o3bob2o$2bo2bo19bo2bo$6bo17bo$7bo15bo$8b
15o2$9bo11bo$8b2o3b2ob2o3b2o$13b2ob2o!

Please check jslife before posting.

I did, but didn't see their exact forms, which is why I posted it.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Gamedziner » August 20th, 2017, 8:25 pm

Could some of these octagons act as sort of OWSS-type emulators?
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby wwei23 » August 21st, 2017, 8:57 am

Gamedziner wrote:Could some of these octagons act as sort of OWSS-type emulators?

Good question. Would you like to see my octagon collection so far?
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby toroidalet » August 21st, 2017, 10:50 am

wwei23 wrote:Good question. Would you like to see my octagon collection so far?

This is off-topic, as all these octagon components have been discovered. You shouldn't have posted your octagons if you saw the base components in a collection but not the specific oscillators themselves.
x = 4, y = 2, rule = B3/S23
ob2o$2obo!

(Check Gen 2)
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby wwei23 » August 23rd, 2017, 1:21 pm

Almost P4:
x = 4, y = 10, rule = Life
bo$3bo$bobo$bo$bo$2bo$2bo$obo$o$2bo!
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Kazyan » August 23rd, 2017, 7:18 pm

wwei23 wrote:Almost P4:
x = 4, y = 10, rule = Life
bo$3bo$bobo$bo$bo$2bo$2bo$obo$o$2bo!


Here's a completion of that, found with WLS:

x = 18, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
13bo$12bobo$12bobo$11b2ob2o$17bo$9b4obob2o$9bo4bobo$11bo2bobo$11bobobo
$7b3o3$8b3o$2bobobo$bobo2bo$bobo4bo$2obob4o$o$2b2ob2o$3bobo$3bobo$4bo!
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby gameoflifemaniac » August 24th, 2017, 2:16 pm

Kazyan wrote:
wwei23 wrote:Almost P4:
x = 4, y = 10, rule = Life
bo$3bo$bobo$bo$bo$2bo$2bo$obo$o$2bo!


Here's a completion of that, found with WLS:

x = 18, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
13bo$12bobo$12bobo$11b2ob2o$17bo$9b4obob2o$9bo4bobo$11bo2bobo$11bobobo
$7b3o3$8b3o$2bobobo$bobo2bo$bobo4bo$2obob4o$o$2b2ob2o$3bobo$3bobo$4bo!

It's p3.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Kazyan » August 29th, 2017, 1:13 pm

Part of a discussion from a buried thread:

dvgrn wrote:
83bismuth38 wrote:
dvgrn wrote:In general, any question starting with "is this p3..." is going to be answered "no", unless it has a very large number of cells in its rotor.

Really? because i discovered a small one with no unique properties and was new...

Yes, well, maybe I can weasel out by saying that your oscillator's bounding box may be small, but it's almost all rotor.

With 33 cells to move around, there are a lot of possible arrangements, many of which may not have been seen before. New examples probably still won't be all that interesting, unless someone is trying for an exhaustive collection -- and people learn pretty quick not to try to do that when there are too many trivial variants.

Zacinfinity's billiard table has only four rotor cells. At that size, if you aren't seeing it in existing collections, the odds are very very high that it's just because you're not looking in the right place...!


I looked into this with Beluchenko's version of WLS to see if the weasel had any more secrets. In a 12x20 search space for up to 8 stator cells, no new p3s with at most 21 cells showed up. So if there are any more small p3s out there, they're either sprawling or have 9+ stator cells. I give it 2:1 odds that there aren't any.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby mniemiec » August 29th, 2017, 1:22 pm

Kazyan wrote:I looked into this with Beluchenko's version of WLS to see if the weasel had any more secrets. In a 12x20 search space for up to 8 stator cells, no new p3s with at most 21 cells showed up. So if there are any more small p3s out there, they're either sprawling or have 9+ stator cells. I give it 2:1 odds that there aren't any.

The P3 space has been exuhaustively searched up to 20 bits, so you shouldn't find any less than 21. 21 is theoretically possible, as I have searched that space manually (mostly for 400+ boring extrapolations of smaller oscillators), but hit has never been subject to an exhaustive computer search yet.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Kazyan » August 29th, 2017, 1:29 pm

mniemiec wrote:The P3 space has been exuhaustively searched up to 20 bits, so you shouldn't find any less than 21. 21 is theoretically possible, as I have searched that space manually (mostly for 400+ boring extrapolations of smaller oscillators), but hit has never been subject to an exhaustive computer search yet.


How would an exhaustive search be done? WLS doesn't seem up to the task, since there isn't really a way for it to stop expanding the search space to infinity for diagonal sort orders.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby mniemiec » August 29th, 2017, 4:48 pm

I wrote:The P3 space has been exuhaustively searched up to 20 bits, so you shouldn't find any less than 21. 21 is theoretically possible, as I have searched that space manually (mostly for 400+ boring extrapolations of smaller oscillators), but hit has never been subject to an exhaustive computer search yet.

Kazyan wrote:How would an exhaustive search be done? WLS doesn't seem up to the task, since there isn't really a way for it to stop expanding the search space to infinity for diagonal sort orders.

As I understand it, it was done by several separate WLS searches within constrained areas (one rectangular, and one diagonal), those areas having been previously proven sufficiently large to hold all oscillators. While I can't speak specifically to the P3 oscillator question, for n-bit still-lifes, (n-3)x(n-3) and (n-2)x(n-4) rectangles are sufficient, or one (n-2)x(n-3) rectangle could cover both of them. Constraints on oscillators are even more restrictive.

This exactly matched the hand-generated lists up to 19 bits, and included all the 20-bit ones, plus 10 additional ones that had not been previously known.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Kazyan » August 31st, 2017, 10:52 am

If anyone has some 15-year-old email from one of the Old Guards of this hobby that can elaborated on the constraints for p3 oscillators, now is the time.

Anyway, partway through a non-exhaustive search, this appeared. Your database doesn't recognize it and it's not in jslife, so now I wonder.

x = 8, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
2o4bo$o2bobobo$2b3o2bo2$4b3o$3bo$3bobo2$4bobo$5b2o!
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby mniemiec » August 31st, 2017, 11:53 am

Kazyan wrote:If anyone has some 15-year-old email from one of the Old Guards of this hobby that can elaborated on the constraints for p3 oscillators, now is the time.
Anyway, partway through a non-exhaustive search, this appeared. Your database doesn't recognize it and it's not in jslife, so now I wonder. ...

Interesting. That's 3 new ones (that, plus two variants w/snake or cis-carrier instead of trans-carrier). I'm not surprised, as I only manually searched for "obvious" extensions of smaller objects. There are bound to be a few new non-trivial ones that would likely only show up in exhaustive searches.

I asked Nicolay Beluchenko about this (because he was the one who did the actual search).
Here is what he wrote me on 2016-04-10:

It may seem strange, I spent a full search oscillator period 3 with WLS program. Only it was me reworked version of the program. Significantly reduce the number of issued results enabled the option "Search only one of the two reflected or rotated asymmetric objects."
The same option is also reduced search time.
The mechanism of this search option will explain in the following example. Just we search from left to right on the strip width of 4 cells. Then there are 16 ways to fill in the first column. Of these, 4 symmetrical, and the remaining 12 can be divided into 6 pairs symmetrical to each other fillings. In each pair, only one search is sufficient to continue, and the second will be a waste of time. Because it will find the same objects, but in mirror image form. The program discards the extra filling when the option is ON. After filling the second column of the program will reject more half asymmetric filling those in the first column were considered symmetric. And so on.
To search from left to right it makes sense to use only horizontal mirror version of this option. However, if you start the search with the center of the field, you can enable and rejection on the grounds of other symmetries. This will make the search more efficient.
Unfortunately, much more difficult to make such a selection in the initial stages of the search to drop shifted objects. Part of the program does this in the postprocessing filter that reduces the amount of duplicate objects (is activated when the "Use hash" option), but does not reduce the search time.
The latest near-final version of the program I presented in 2014 in response to a letter Hartmut. In it I was not satisfied with the implementation of breadth-first search. I would like to improve it, but the work was delayed. For our purposes, this part of the program does not matter. Link http://beluch.ru/files/wls.zip

> Do you remember how long the search took? I'm perfectly fine with running
> searches that take a few hours or even a few days, although a few weeks
> might cause logistical problems.

As I recall, the search took 2-3 weeks. Much more I processed the results. The fact that each object has been obtained in several copies. The program considers different generations of the same object in different objects. In addition, I used only one of the options "Search only one of two" - is added to the results turned small objects.

> Also, did you check all four of the "Search only one of two" options? I
> have been doing that in my experiments.

Why four? Their seven. I tested all individually and several combinations, including when all seven applied simultaneously. But it was short tests. Although I do not understand why some options might work while others do not. Most of the code have a common. In real applications tested horizontal and downward diagonal.

> It turns out that the version of wls you pointed me at is exactly the same
> version I had previously downloaded. One vital option I had failed to notice
> before was the option (enabled by default) that stops after finding a single
> solution, which is what was stopping me before.

Options from the page "Output Options" can be changed in the search process. So it was in previous versions of wls. But of course, all the better to ask - to remove a stop at finding the object and specify the file name to save the results. If I forgot to do that, I first found object maintained by copy-paste, and then correcting the desired option. And then I continued to search.

> One persistent problem I an noticing is that the program keeps crashing,
> every time I save the configuration (so I must make changes, save them,
> wait for the crash, restart the program, reload the saved configuration).
> I'm currently running this on 64-bit Windows 7, although I am also
> considering running it on 32-bit Windows XP and 64-bit Windows 10 once I
> have established viable search parameters.

I have not watched the collapse of the program. I need to know under what options the program crashes. It is best to send me to a dump file.
The initial state can be saved after executing the command "Prepare" instead of "Start" command. At the same time all the preliminary steps are performed, including check the correctness of the options, but calculation is stopped.
And I advise to use a periodic save dump option, for example, every one million calculations. I usually pick up this number, depending on the performance of computer to the saving occurred in 5-10 minutes. Always convenient to return to the last dump in the event of an unexpected stop. With the periodic saving of the dump program also saves the dump in finding the object.
For our research, I would set the following options.
General settings. Period 3.
Rows and columns: Rows 11, Columns I can leave 35.
Sort order. Sort center: X1, Y6 (middle of 11). Direction 1: X1, Y0.
Search settings. Force an ON cell in column 1. Limit ON cells in generation 0 to 20. Search only one of two... Mirrored X. Ignore objects with a pop up to 20.
(The latest adjustment to exclude the known oscillators up to 20 bits.)
Output settings - we have already discussed.
Other default.
After searching repeat the search for the diagonal variant.
Rows and columns: Rows 35, Columns 35. Draw a downward passage width of 8 cells (orthogonally measured width).
Sort order. Sort center: X1, Y1. Direction 1: X1, Y1.
Search only one of two... Diag-Backward refl.
The rest as before.

You can try this option instead. Perhaps it faster give the desired result. I am almost certain that the search will be too full, but unlike the previous one tiny question remains.
Rows and columns: Rows 13, Columns 13.
Sort order. Sort center: X7, Y7. Direction 1: X1, Y0. Direction 2: X0, Y1.
Search only one of two... All. Force an ON cell in column 0 - Instead, draw the ON cell in the 0 generation in almost-midfield (X6, Y7).
The rest as before.

The program was made by a 32-bit system. In a 64-bit system, I almost did not check it.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Kazyan » August 31st, 2017, 11:31 pm

mniemiec wrote:Interesting. That's 3 new ones (that, plus two variants w/snake or cis-carrier instead of trans-carrier). I'm not surprised, as I only manually searched for "obvious" extensions of smaller objects. There are bound to be a few new non-trivial ones that would likely only show up in exhaustive searches.


Huh, I was expecting 'this is 21.135 from an obscure pentadecathlon.com list' or something. Now I've gotta go synthesize it. :P

mniemiec wrote:I asked Nicolay Beluchenko about this (because he was the one who did the actual search).
Here is what he wrote me on 2016-04-10:


Noted. I'll start an exhaustive search once I'm done collecting the higher-hanging fruit from this partial search tree.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Saka » September 1st, 2017, 12:08 am

Is this random p3 new? I couldn't find it in jslife, but I am bad at looking for rotors.
x = 14, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
2ob2o$bobobob2o$bo3bobo$2bo2bo2bo$3bob2ob3o$2b2o$2bo2b2o$2bob3o$2bo5b
3o$6bo$6bo4bo$7b2o2bo$9bob2o$3b2obobo2bobo$3bob2ob2o2b2o!
If you're the person that uploaded to Sakagolue illegally, please PM me.
x = 17, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
b2ob2obo5b2o$11b4obo$2bob3o2bo2b3o$bo3b2o4b2o$o2bo2bob2o3b4o$bob2obo5b
o2b2o$2b2o4bobo2b3o$bo3b5ob2obobo$2bo5bob2o$4bob2o2bobobo!

(Check gen 2)
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby AbhpzTa » September 3rd, 2017, 10:50 am

Saka wrote:Is this random p3 new? I couldn't find it in jslife, but I am bad at looking for rotors.
x = 14, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
2ob2o$bobobob2o$bo3bobo$2bo2bo2bo$3bob2ob3o$2b2o$2bo2b2o$2bob3o$2bo5b
3o$6bo$6bo4bo$7b2o2bo$9bob2o$3b2obobo2bobo$3bob2ob2o2b2o!

Reduced (L=population, R=bounding box):
x = 33, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
3b2ob2o15b2ob2o$2o2bobo13b2o2bobo$o3bo3bo11bo3bo3bo$2bobo3bo13bobo3bo$
ob3o3bo11bob3o3bo$4b2o18b2o$o19bo$b2obo3bo12b2obo3bo$6bob2o16bob2o$5bo
2b2o15bo2b2o$6b2obo16b2obo$8bobo12b3o2bobo$8bobobo10bo2bobobobo$5b2obo
2b2o13b2o3b2o$5bob2o!
Iteration of sigma(n)+tau(n)-n [sigma(n)+tau(n)-n : OEIS A163163] (e.g. 16,20,28,34,24,44,46,30,50,49,11,3,3, ...) :
965808 is period 336 (max = 207085118608).
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Scorbie » September 3rd, 2017, 12:54 pm

AbhpzTa wrote:
Saka wrote:Is this random p3 new? I couldn't find it in jslife, but I am bad at looking for rotors.
x = 14, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
2ob2o$bobobob2o$bo3bobo$2bo2bo2bo$3bob2ob3o$2b2o$2bo2b2o$2bob3o$2bo5b
3o$6bo$6bo4bo$7b2o2bo$9bob2o$3b2obobo2bobo$3bob2ob2o2b2o!

Reduced (L=population, R=bounding box):
x = 33, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
3b2ob2o15b2ob2o$2o2bobo13b2o2bobo$o3bo3bo11bo3bo3bo$2bobo3bo13bobo3bo$
ob3o3bo11bob3o3bo$4b2o18b2o$o19bo$b2obo3bo12b2obo3bo$6bob2o16bob2o$5bo
2b2o15bo2b2o$6b2obo16b2obo$8bobo12b3o2bobo$8bobobo10bo2bobobobo$5b2obo
2b2o13b2o3b2o$5bob2o!
I think there are waaaaaaay many p3s with that rotor population for us to count every one.
Nonetheless, nice.
Best wishes to you, Scorbie
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Kazyan » September 15th, 2017, 12:04 pm

Kazyan wrote:Noted. I'll start an exhaustive search once I'm done collecting the higher-hanging fruit from this partial search tree.


This took quite a bit longer than my initial guess, but I've finished searching a 10x40 area for 21-bit p3s. Besides the recent p3, nothing new showed up--only stator variants and such. If there are any missed p3s, their 21-cell phases do not fit in this bounding box.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby mniemiec » September 15th, 2017, 4:02 pm

Kazyan wrote:This took quite a bit longer than my initial guess, but I've finished searching a 10x40 area for 21-bit p3s. Besides the recent p3, nothing new showed up--only stator variants and such. If there are any missed p3s, their 21-cell phases do not fit in this bounding box.

Great! Would it be possible for me to have a look at this (raw data in any format would be fine) so I can verify that these match my lists? I had thought that I had done all the trivial stator variants, but when the 20-bit ones were searched, a coupleo of stator variants were found that I had missed. Also, since that search also included pseudo-objects, I was able to verify that my list of P3 pseudo-oscillators up to 20 bits was also complete. My current hand-generated lists shows 422 21-bit P3 oscillators and 90 21-bit P3 pseudo-oscillators. As far as I know, nobody has yet tackled exhaustive searches of P4 or higher oscillators beyond 12 bits.
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby Kazyan » September 15th, 2017, 4:33 pm

mniemiec wrote:Great! Would it be possible for me to have a look at this (raw data in any format would be fine) so I can verify that these match my lists? I had thought that I had done all the trivial stator variants, but when the 20-bit ones were searched, a coupleo of stator variants were found that I had missed. Also, since that search also included pseudo-objects, I was able to verify that my list of P3 pseudo-oscillators up to 20 bits was also complete. My current hand-generated lists shows 422 21-bit P3 oscillators and 90 21-bit P3 pseudo-oscillators. As far as I know, nobody has yet tackled exhaustive searches of P4 or higher oscillators beyond 12 bits.


I hope you're not shy about duplicates and pseudo-oscillators. Here is a pastebin link, in leau of me knowing how attachments work.
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Kazyan
 
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Re: Oscillator Discussion Thread

Postby mniemiec » September 15th, 2017, 7:00 pm

Kazyan wrote:I hope you're not shy about duplicates and pseudo-oscillators. Here is a pastebin link, in leau of me knowing how attachments work.

Oh no, that's great! Thanks! My own still-life/oscillator enumerator already emits duplicate and pseudo-objects, and I have filters that separate those out. All I need to do now is to write a filter that slices the huge RLE into separate objects and converts them into my own internal object format. (Presumably, all occurrences of two or more adjacent blank rows can be assumed to be pattern separators).

EDIT:
When Nicolay Beluchenko searched for the P3s up to 20 bits, he ran two searches: a rectangular one for most of them, plus a narrow diagonal one to catch the few remaining larger ones. My lists include 14 13x12s, 6 12x12s, 1 14x11s, 24 13x11s, 11 12x11s. and 8 11x11s. These would all fit within a 9-bit-wide diagonal stripe in a 14x12 box (21x12 to be safe, for a total of 108 active cells).
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