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David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby HartmutHolzwart » November 11th, 2014, 10:53 am

Just a variation on the theme:

If negative speed downstream helices are comparably cheap, it might be more efficient to use upstream *WSS convoys as the central spine and build them with the downstream helix.

Then the correspinding upstream helix would just need to destroy the upstream convoy, which would be considerably easier than building new *WSS.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby codeholic » November 11th, 2014, 1:28 pm

I think building negative speed helices for the backend is an absolute waste. Given you've got a universal constructor in the form of a tape reader, you can build glider salvo seeds, that will destroy the tape-reading spaceships further down.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 11th, 2014, 2:13 pm

codeholic wrote: you can build glider salvo seeds, that will destroy the tape-reading spaceships further down.


Great (and thx for the advice)! So this problem solved. Didn't think of it -I'm still not experienced with caterpillar designs, it has something of circular logic in it, so it's a bit confusing.

Anyway working on the front now - hopefully will get away with 3-5 helices per *WSS, finishing with ~ 20 helices which is ~100 up streams. Then the slow salvo, which is not only monochromatic (step 2 in grid) but also mono-generic, which means step 2 in generation (can't produce states of some gliders at even/odd generations - which is crucial for some recipes with blinkers + monochromaticity requires 2 recipes for odd and even placements of the helix, so a lot of work there).

HartmutHolzwart wrote: it might be more efficient to use upstream *WSS convoys as the central spine and build them with the downstream helix


Hmm don't think it will work - generating *WSS with slow salvo costs too much to waste it again on glider of the down srteam to generate another *WSS.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 11th, 2014, 5:14 pm

For the front I'm working in two major directions:

1. Converting upper stream to "side" stream.

Here are some search results (I'm currently missing HWSS):

x = 23, y = 298, rule = B3/S23
11bo$9b2o$10b2o22$5b3o$5bo2bo$5bo$5bo$6bobo2$bo$3o$ob2o$b3o$b2o44$bo$
2b2o$b2o29$13bo$12b3o$11b2obo$11b3o$12b2o5$14b3o$14bo2bo$14bo$14bo$15b
obo57$17bo$17bobo$17b2o13$13b3o$13bo2bo$13bo$13bo3bo$13bo$14bobo2$10bo
$9b3o$9bob2o$10b3o$10b3o$10b3o$10b2o50$20bobo$20b2o$21bo25$12b3o$11bo
2bo$14bo$14bo$11bobo3$11b3o$11bo2bo$11bo$11bo3bo$11bo3bo$11bo$12bobo!


EDIT Here are some more recipes for LWSS turners (by codeholic):
viewtopic.php?p=10379#p10379

EDIT2 Found HWSS turner, although with self crossing paths and three *WSS, it should be useful for most application that tries to turn HWSS:

x = 21, y = 64, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o25$8b3o$8bo2bo$8bo$8bo3bo$8bo3bo$8bo$9bobo5$17bo$16b3o$16bo
b2o$17b3o$17b3o$17b2o15$18bo$17b3o$17bob2o$18b3o$18b3o$18b2o!


EDIT3 Found great HWSS turner!

x = 36, y = 58, rule = B3/S23
6$14b2o$14b3o$5bobo5bob2o$8bo4b3o$4bo3bo5bo$4bo3bo$8bo$5bo2bo$6b3o28$
22b2o$22bobo$22bo!


this can work on any HWSS that is not to close to other *WSS (which are 3 out of 4).

2. Converting Upper G + Lower G + Side M/LWSS -> Down *WSS. Here I've got only MWSS:

x = 21, y = 61, rule = B3/S23
bo$o$3o8$18bo$16bo3bo$15bo$15bo4bo$15b5o44$13b3o$13bo$14bo!


The total cost of such approach is 5 (for lower glider) + 6 (for upper glider) + 7 (5 for down glider + 2 for *WSS stram) = 18 streams which is very nice. If the recipe is not clean another glider is needed for cleaning the mess so it's 23 (which is OK).

EDIT Here is the same cost (actually 24) for LWSS (thx chris):

x = 92, y = 92, rule = B3/S23
12$26bo$25bo$25b3o11$26b3o6b4o$26bo8bo3bo$27bo7bo$36bo2bo50$86b3o$86bo
$87bo!


As for HWSS the regular recipe costs 11 (for block) + 11 (for blinker) + 5(for trigger) + 5(for cleaning) = 32.

It's all not that bad, but I've hopes for better recipe. Need to check what in the current recipe can be switches to L/MWSS.

EDIT2 Wow my recipe is almost entirely HWSS based. Only one MWSS out of 5, and the tail is also HWSS must. We need to get lower than 32 for it.

EDIT3 Here is something that might work, for 11 + 2 * 6 + 5 = 28.

x = 14, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
o$o$o$2b3o$2bo$3bo17$11b2o$11bobo$11bo!


Here is a proof of compatibility:

x = 117, y = 514, rule = B3/S23
bo$bo$bo37$3o37$bo$bo$bo37$3o37$bo$bo$bo$3b3o$3bo$4bo$29b2o$29b2o15$
12b2o$12bobo$12bo19$23b3o$22bo2bo$25bo$21bo3bo$21bo3bo5bo$25bo4b3o$22b
obo5bob2o$31b3o$31b3o$31b2o10$112b2o$112b2o3$94b2o$93b2o$95bo2$25b3o$
24bo2bo$27bo$27bo$24bobo3$18b3o$17bo2bo$20bo$20bo$17bobo7$23b3o$22bo2b
o$25bo$21bo3bo$21bo3bo$25bo$22bobo11$24b3o$23bo2bo$26bo$22bo3bo$26bo$
23bobo3$107bo$106b3o$105b2obo$105b3o$105b3o$105b3o5b3o$106b2o4bo2bo$
115bo$111bo3bo$115bo$112bobo17$109bo$108b3o$107b2obo$107b3o$108b2o3$
102bo$101b3o$100b2obo$100b3o$101b2o7$107bo$106b3o$105b2obo$105b3o$105b
3o$105b3o$106b2o4$24bo$23b3o$23bob2o$24b3o$24b3o$24b3o3b3o$24b2o4bo2bo
$30bo77bo$30bo3bo72b3o$30bo75b2obo$31bobo72b3o$106b3o$107b2o15$26bo$
25b3o$25bob2o$26b3o$26b2o3$19bo$18b3o$18bob2o$19b3o$19b2o7$24bo$23b3o$
23bob2o$24b3o$24b3o$24b3o$24b2o11$25bo$24b3o$24bob2o$25b3o$25b3o$25b2o
4$106b3o$105bo2bo$108bo$104bo3bo$104bo3bo5bo$108bo4b3o$105bobo5bob2o$
114b3o$114b3o$114b2o18$108b3o$107bo2bo$110bo$110bo$107bobo3$101b3o$
100bo2bo$103bo$103bo$100bobo7$106b3o$105bo2bo$108bo$104bo3bo$104bo3bo$
108bo$105bobo4$23b3o$23bo2bo$23bo$23bo3bo$23bo3bo3bo$23bo6b3o$24bobo2b
2obo$29b3o75b3o$29b3o74bo2bo$30b2o77bo$105bo3bo$109bo$106bobo15$25b3o$
25bo2bo$25bo$25bo$26bobo3$18b3o$18bo2bo$18bo$18bo$19bobo7$23b3o$23bo2b
o$23bo$23bo3bo$23bo3bo$23bo$24bobo11$24b3o$24bo2bo$24bo$24bo3bo$24bo$
25bobo!


EDIT4 Not sure whether this recipe has use, but it might do better in some situations:

x = 21, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
4b6o$4bo5bo$4bo$5bo4bo$7b2o2$16b4o$15b6o$14b2ob4o$15b2o3$bo$2o$obo!


Nope it can't be used:

x = 192, y = 305, rule = B3/S23
45$126b2o$126b3o$126b3o$126b3o$125bob2o$125b3o$126bo92$166b2o$166b3o$
166b3o$166b3o$165bob2o$165b3o$166bo80$117bobo$120bo$116bo3bo$116bo3bo$
120bo$117bo2bo$118b3o4$121bobo$124bo$120bo3bo$120bo3bo$124bo$121bo2bo$
122b3o10$147b2o$145bo4bo$144bo$144bo5bo$144b6o5$155b2o$154b2ob4o$155b
6o$156b4o2$141b2o$140b2o$142bo!


---

The minimal cost for HWSS is now 25 (7 + 7 for two *WSS + 11 for the two gliders using "back shoot").

The total cost now (with the new HWSS turner) is 25 * 3 (HWSS using the short recipe) + 28 (HWSS for the edge) + 24 (edge MWSS) = 127.
Last edited by simsim314 on November 12th, 2014, 4:53 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby chris_c » November 11th, 2014, 7:07 pm

simsim314 wrote:2. Converting Upper G + Lower G + Side M/LWSS -> Down *WSS. Here I've got only MWSS:

I've got a couple of these lying around from some 31c/240 experiments. Hope they are useful.

x = 102, y = 40, rule = B3/S23
75bo$75bobo$75b2o12$bo$o$3o5$97b4o$97bo3bo$97bo$98bo2bo3$b3o6b4o$bo8bo
3bo$2bo7bo$11bo2bo7$73b2o$73bobo$73bo!
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 12th, 2014, 5:55 am

While searches are running to try and squeeze a bit more for HWSS synth, I was thinking on building helices that can reach c/2 as close as we want them to.

The regular approach of somehow building long armada of *WSS and try to pass glider between them has speed limitation lower than c/2, and needs unique approach toward each specific speed.

So I was thinking of something different. We take a c/2 puffer, debris of which can be cleaned by *WSS. Then we need crawler along the trace of the puffer debris which is faster than c/2. Then this puffer should be possible to kill, using this crawler.

Something of this sort (but the lower puffer will be killed on impact + the upper will reignite + *WSS will clean the puff):

x = 359, y = 115, rule = B3/S23
41b3o$40b5o$39b2ob3o$40b2o2$44bo$44bo$44bo$39b2ob4o$38b4o$37b2o$38bo$
39b4o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$43bo2bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$39b
4o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$38bo$37b2o$38b4o$39b2ob4o$44bo$44bo$44b
o2$40b2o$39b2ob3o$40b5o$41b3o62$4b3o$3b5o$2b2ob3o$3b2o2$7bo$7bo$7bo$2b
2ob4o$b4o$2o309bo$bo308bobob3o$2b4o5bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b4obob3o$6bo4bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo$2b4o5bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b4obob3o$bo308bobob3o$2o309bo$b4o$2b2ob4o
9b2o$7bo9b2ob3o$7bo10b5o$7bo11b3o2$3b2o$2b2ob3o$3b5o$4b3o!


If this is reachable, we can make signal that travels at any speed lower than c/2 using this construction as helix. Because the crawler is traveling faster than c/2 adjusting the timing so that the triggered glider will hit the new puffer at the correct moment making it possible to reach any speed we want.

EDIT Couldn't find any way to destroy any c/2 puffer by burning its puff. So maybe something can be done with this kind of signal:

x = 170, y = 43, rule = B3/S23
3$45b3obo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$44bo4bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$38bobo6bobo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$38bo5b3o$37b2o2bo$27bo7b
2ob3o$26bo9bobo$26b3o9b2o3b2o$42bob2o$42bo3b2o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$42bo4bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$43bo
2b2o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo$43b3o3$27b2o$27bobo$27bo$38b2o$38bobo$38bo37b3obo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$49b2o24bo4bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$49bobo18b2o6bobo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$49bo25b3o$60b2o8b
3o$60bobo$60bo7b2o4bo$70bo2bo3bo$72b2o4bo$72bo5bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$79bo2bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$78bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo$73bo4bo$74b2o!


EDIT As another side note, the fastest helix recipe with current approach I've found is 25/103, which is a bit slower than c/4 (for example it can be used in 31/240 caterpillar).

x = 26, y = 43, rule = B3/S23
22bobo$21bo$21bo3bo$21bo3bo$21bo$21bo2bo$21b3o4$14b2o5b2o$14b3o4b3o$
14b3o4b3o$13bob2o4b3o$13b3o4bob2o$14bo5b3o$21bo11$b2o$3o$3o$3o$2obo$b
3o$2bo3$3bobo4bobo$2bo6bo$2bo3bo2bo3bo$2bo3bo2bo$2bo6bo2bo$2bo2bo3b3o
2b2o$2b3o9b2o!
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby Alexey_Nigin » November 12th, 2014, 5:33 pm

I am not keen on creating such patterns, so please excuse me if I say anything stupid or already known.

Here is my variation of the idea.

Downward stream of *WSS (A) activates SLs and produces slow salvos. Now, these salvos do not create a complex helix. Instead, they create an upward stream of *WSS (B) capable of activating SLs plus a simple positive-speed helix, which can destroy (B). Spaceships (B) then construct (A) with a slow salvo.

As a result, helices are not used to construct things.

Do you get the idea?


(Oh, and my congratulations to ESA!)
Last edited by Alexey_Nigin on November 13th, 2014, 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 12th, 2014, 6:41 pm

Alexey_Nigin wrote: Instead, they create an upward stream of *WSS (B) capable of activating SLs


Hey Alexey it's cool idea that I can't see working unfortunately. The reason is that upward stream capable of activating SLs will not move those SLs up (while those SLs are the "actual" caterpillar material). This is unpleasant feature of this mechanism. Any stream that activates SLs will move those SLs in opposite direction of its movement, so the only way to move the front is using helices and not stream that activate SLs.

That being said, one can use only one helix, and this helix will activate other upward streams to generate downstream *WSSs. I was thinking in this direction, but because we're using adjustable speed mechanisms, and want it to be adjusted freely, we don't want many intersection in out way. This is why helices are great - they pass information from below, and don't use other information passes from other parts of the front. This allows very simple non intersecting design of the front, which hopefully I'll build as soon as I'm sure no major improvement can be made for the recipes for generating HWSS (as it's the major component of the 5 *WSS downstream recipe).
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby codeholic » November 12th, 2014, 8:18 pm

simsim314 wrote:The total cost of such approach is 5 (for lower glider) + 6 (for upper glider) + 7 (5 for down glider + 2 for *WSS stram) = 18 streams which is very nice. If the recipe is not clean another glider is needed for cleaning the mess so it's 23 (which is OK).

That is quite a generous calculation. You don't need a separate helix for each glider (or spaceship), you need only one helix to set the pace. And then fanout devices are more efficient. (Though you might need delay devices too in order to adjust timings. But I bet one can find two-in-one.)
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 13th, 2014, 1:51 am

codeholic wrote:That is quite a generous calculation. You don't need a separate helix for each glider (or spaceship), you need only one helix to set the pace. And then fanout devices are more efficient


I thought of this, but I don't see any simple adjustable speed fanout without going through hell. Because fanouts are based on gliders they have 2 major disadvantages. 1. They require precise timing making it harder to be speed adjustable. 2. They create self intersecting path traces, which might intersect each other at some places at some times, and it becomes very "nasty" and speed specific.

Another thing to point out any fanout device requires: 2 streams just for input output fanout + 4 streams * number of objects in the recipe (2 for fanout and 2 for object itself). If some additional "stabilization" is required and we come to 6, it's already what I've without any fanout.

The simple and straight approach can be used very simply, using the same recipe with any speed, no headache, no self intersecting paths, no complex design. To make myself such a headache (even if possible to solve) just to reduce the size of the caterpillar by 20-30% just not worth it. But yes thx, this direction does seems to be better at first. I think the main reason why it's not efficient here is because helices are relatively cheap (5-7), and fanouts cost more than it seems (4-6 + adjusting self intersections, it's just too messy).

EDIT Anyway I'm open for suggestions, if you find something good, or you think I'm missing something I'll be more than glad to "cheaply" reduce the size of my caterpillar design.

Here are some recipes for fanout, I devised when started to think in this direction:

x = 333, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
212bo$8b3o200bo59bo57bo$3o5bo133bo68b3o56bo57bo$o2bo5bo131bo128b3o55b
3o$o93b3o44b3o$o3bo89bo$o94bo$bobo$214bo57b3o$213b3o56bo2bo52b3o$212b
2obo56bo55bo2bo$86b3o55bo67b3o57bo3bo51bo$86bo2bo53b3o66b3o57bo3bo51bo
3bo$86bo55b2obo67b2o57bo55bo$86bo3bo51b3o128bobo53bobo$86bo3bo51b3o$
86bo56b2o$87bobo!


EDIT2 I've thought of this again, and my conclusion is such: whatever can be done "locally" and fast should be done with single glider trigger that comes from helix. Whatever takes longer than minimal period (337), from that point on will be ambiguous (and will require adjustment for each period separately). In simple words if it can be done under 337 ticks, do it with trigger, if not use helix. For our needs the upper and lower gliders will be sent from helix, but the *WSS combo for HWSS turn should be done with single helix + triggers.

Here an interesting recipe:

x = 10, y = 60, rule = B3/S23
6bo$5bo$5b3o6$8bo$7b3o$6b2obo$6b3o$6b3o$7b2o40$2b3o$bo2bo$4bo$o3bo$o3b
o$4bo$bobo!
Last edited by simsim314 on November 14th, 2014, 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 14th, 2014, 5:23 am

Here are results of pretty extensive search (in 20x30 square) for *WSS turners with 2 *WSS.

Those results include some small amount of debris (which probably can be cleaned with third *WSS):

x = 2654, y = 1467, rule = B3/S23
1847bo$1848b2o236bobo$1847b2o238b2o545bobo$2087bo547b2o$2635bo$2538bo$
2539b2o$2538b2o11$2329bobo$2330b2o$2330bo13$1177bo$1178b2o$1177b2o$
1607bo$1608bo$1606b3o6$963bo$964bo429bobo$962b3o430b2o$774bo620bo$772b
obo$773b2o7$614bobo$615b2o$615bo7$2651bo$2564bo85b3o$2563b3o84bob2o$
171bo2390b2obo85b3o$169bobo2390b3o86b3o$170b2o2390b3o86b3o$2bobo2558b
2o86b2o$3b2o$3bo320bo867bo$322bobo148bo717b3o$323b2o146bobo716b2obo$
472b2o716b3o216b3o$1190b3o216bo2bo942bo$1191b2o216bo944b3o$1409bo3bo
940bob2o$1409bo945b3o$1410bobo210b3o245bo483b3o$1622bo2bo244b3o482b2o$
1625bo244bob2o$1621bo3bo245b3o$1621bo3bo245b3o$1625bo245b2o239bo$1622b
obo486b3o$2110b2obo$2110b3o$2110b3o432b3o$2111b2o432bo2bo$2545bo$2545b
o3bo$787bo1757bo97b3o$786b3o1757bobo94bo2bo$628bo157bob2o188bo1664bo$
627b3o157b3o187b3o634b3o1026bo$626b2obo157b2o187b2obo422b3o209bo2bo
1026bobo$626b3o347b3o206b3o214bo2bo208bo723b3o$626b3o348b2o206bo2bo
213bo211bo3bo719bo2bo$626b3o556bo216bo3bo207bo3bo719bo$627b2o556bo216b
o211bo723bo$10b3o768b3o402bobo214bobo209bobo237b3o481bobo$10bo2bo164b
3o600bo2bo1070bo2bo$10bo167bo2bo599bo1073bo$10bo3bo163bo602bo1073bo$
10bo3bo163bo603bobo185b3o883bobo$10bo168bobo788bo2bo$11bobo609b3o344bo
$488b3o132bo2bo343bo3bo1119b3o$488bo2bo131bo346bo1123bo2bo$488bo134bo
347bobo1120bo$479b3o6bo3bo131bobo1467bo3bo$479bo2bo5bo1605bo$479bo9bob
o1603bobo$479bo3bo$479bo$480bobo5$339bo$16bo321b3o$15b3o320bob2o$14b2o
bo321b3o$14b3o167bo154b3o$15b2o166b3o153b3o$182b2obo145b3o5b2o$182b3o
146bo2bo$182b3o146bo$183b2o146bo$332bobo90$1381bo$1381bobo$1381b2o5$
1586bo$1585bo$1585b3o3$2118bo$2117bo$1832bo284b3o$1830b2o$1831b2o5$
1261bobo$1261b2o$697bo564bo$697bobo$697b2o303bo$1002bobo1318bo$29bo
972b2o1317b2o$28bo2293b2o$28b3o2$471bo$469b2o$470b2o3$600bo247bobo$
598b2o248b2o295bobo$599b2o248bo295b2o106b3o$1146bo105bo2bo$1255bo$
1251bo3bo117b3o$1251bo3bo116bo2bo$1255bo119bo$1252bobo116bo3bo197b3o$
327bobo1041bo3bo197bo2bo$327b2o1046bo197bo$193bobo132bo1043bobo198bo3b
o$193b2o1378bo3bo$194bo1378bo$1574bobo$1241b3o580bo$1240bo2bo579b3o
489bo$840b3o400bo579bob2o487b3o$839bo2bo294b3o103bo580b3o487bob2o$842b
o293bo2bo100bobo581b3o488b3o$838bo3bo296bo684b2o489b3o$838bo3bo292bo3b
o222b3o950b3o$319b3o520bo296bo222bo2bo949b2o$20b3o295bo2bo517bobo294bo
bo223bo$19bo2bo298bo1040bo$22bo294bo3bo367b3o301b3o367bobo$18bo3bo294b
o3bo366bo2bo300bo2bo$18bo3bo298bo369bo303bo581b3o$22bo162b3o130bobo
366bo3bo303bo580bo2bo$19bobo162bo2bo503bo300bobo584bo$187bo500bobo884b
o3bo$183bo3bo937b3o447bo3bo$187bo638b3o295bo2bo451bo$184bobo639bo2bo
153bo143bo448bobo$826bo155b3o142bo$826bo3bo151bob2o138bobo$826bo156b3o
837b3o$461b3o363bobo153b3o836bo2bo487b3o$460bo2bo127b3o389b3o839bo276b
3o207bo2bo$463bo126bo2bo389b2o836bo3bo276bo2bo209bo$463bo129bo1231bo
276bo212bo$460bobo126bo3bo1228bobo277bo3bo205bobo$593bo1508bo3bo$171b
3o416bobo1509bo$171bo2bo1928bobo$171bo518bo$171bo3bo132b3o378b3o$171bo
135bo2bo377b2obo$172bobo135bo377b3o$306bo3bo377b3o$310bo378b2o$307bobo
142bo$451b3o$450b2obo128bo$450b3o128b3o$10bo440b2o127b2obo$9b3o568b3o$
8b2obo569b2o$8b3o$8b3o2097b3o$8b3o2096bo2bo$9b2o2099bo$2110bo$2107bobo
85$354bo$354b2o$353bobo2$259b2o$260b2o$259bo$135b2o$134bobo$136bo233bo
$369b3o$3o5b3o358bob2o$2bo5bo2bo358b3o$bo6bo361b2o$8bo3bo129b3o$8bo3bo
129bo2bo128bo$8bo133bo130b3o$9bobo130bo3bo119b3o3b2obo$142bo3bo119bo2b
o2b3o$142bo123bo6b2o86b3o$143bobo120bo3bo90bo2bo$266bo3bo90bo$266bo94b
o3bo$267bobo91bo3bo$361bo$362bobo10$145bo$144b3o$144bob2o$145b3o$145b
3o$145b2o2$13b3o$12bo2bo$15bo$11bo3bo$15bo$12bobo98$165bo237b3o286b2o
128b3o$164b2o237bo130b3o154b2o129bo260b2o$164bobo237bo129bo158bo129bo
120b2o136b2o$535bo407b2o139bo$267bo545b3o129bo$266b2o544bo2bo$38bo227b
obo546bo$37b2o776bo$37bobo218b3o551bobo$257bo2bo$260bo$256bo3bo$260bo$
257bobo424b3o$156b3o524bo2bo383bo4b3o$155bo2bo235b3o289bo382b3o2bo2bo$
158bo234bo2bo128b3o154bo3bo240b3o139bob2o4bo$154bo3bo237bo127bo2bo154b
o3bo126bo113bo2bo139b4o3bo$158bo237bo130bo158bo125b3o112bo142b3o4bo$
155bobo235bobo131bo155bobo125b2obo112bo8b3o131b3obobo$29b3o492bobo284b
3o114bobo4bo2bo131b2o$28bo2bo780b2o124bo$31bo902bo3bo$27bo3bo481bo168b
o251bo3bo$31bo348bo131b3o166b3o254bo$28bobo348b3o129b2obo166bob2o250bo
bo$256bo122bob2o128b3o168b3o$255b3o122b3o129b2o168b2o$254b2obo122b3o$
254b3o123b2o$255b2o5$141b3o$141bo2bo$141bo$141bo$142bobo4$12b3o$11bo2b
o$14bo$10bo3bo$14bo$11bobo165$25bobo$25b2o$26bo2$160bo$160bobo133bo$
160b2o132b2o$295b2o24$152b3o124bo$151bo2bo123b3o$154bo123bob2o$150bo3b
o124b3o$150bo3bo124b3o$154bo124b3o$151bobo125b2o$17b3o$16bo2bo$19bo$
15bo3bo$15bo3bo$19bo267b3o$10bo5bobo267bo2bo$9b3o277bo$8b2obo273bo3bo$
8b3o274bo3bo$8b3o278bo$8b3o275bobo$9b2o$152bo$151b3o$150b2obo$150b3o$
151b2o128$20b2o$19bobo$21bo6$32bo$31b3o$30b2obo$30b3o$30b3o$31b2o15$
27b3o$27bo2bo$27bo$27bo3bo$27bo$28bobo125$270bobo$271b2o$271bo5$32bo$
33b2o$32b2o106bo$141bo$139b3o31$284bo$283b3o$39b3o241bob2o$39bo2bo241b
3o$39bo244b3o$39bo3bo240b3o$39bo3bo103b3o134b2o$39bo107bo2bo$40bobo
104bo130b3o$147bo3bo126bo2bo$147bo3bo126bo$147bo8b3o119bo3bo$148bobo5b
o2bo118bo3bo$156bo121bo$156bo3bo118bobo$156bo3bo$156bo$157bobo9$51bo$
50b3o$49b2obo$49b3o$49b3o$50b2o94$366bo$367b2o$366b2o$216bo$217bo$215b
3o4$376bo$375b3o$375bob2o$376b3o$376b3o$376b3o$376b2o2$27bo$25bobo$26b
2o16$374b3o$374bo2bo$374bo$374bo$375bobo2$223b3o$223bo2bo$223bo$33b3o
187bo3bo$33bo2bo186bo$33bo190bobo$33bo3bo$33bo3bo$33bo$34bobo$234b3o$
233bo2bo$236bo$232bo3bo$42bo193bo$41b3o189bobo$41bob2o$42b3o$42b3o$42b
2o104$32bobo$32b2o$33bo9$23bo$22b3o$22bob2o$23b3o$23b3o$23b3o$23b2o7$
24b3o$23bo2bo$26bo$22bo3bo$26bo$23bobo!


And those are clean:

x = 1594, y = 1031, rule = B3/S23
115bo$116bo$114b3o34$217bo$218b2o$217b2o15$2bo$obo$b2o8$136bo$135b3o$
134b2obo$134b3o$134b3o90b3o$134b3o89bo2bo$135b2o92bo$229bo$226bobo4$
224b3o$9b3o212bo2bo$9bo2bo211bo$9bo214bo3bo$9bo113b3o98bo3bo$10bobo
110bo2bo97bo$123bo101bobo$123bo$124bobo$12bo$11b3o$11bob2o$12b3o$12b2o
161$1434bo$1434bobo$1434b2o6$847bo$845b2o$846b2o10$639bo$637b2o$638b2o
9$29bo$28bo$28b3o$424bobo$424b2o$425bo5$259bo$258bo$258b3o1332bo$1591b
2o$1592b2o3$1286bo$1286bobo$1286b2o128b3o$1057bobo356bo2bo$1057b2o357b
o166b3o$1058bo357bo3bo161bo2bo$250b3o1163bo3bo164bo$249bo2bo1023b3o
137bo164bo3bo$252bo1023bo2bo137bobo165bo$248bo3bo1023bo305bobo$252bo
1023bo3bo$249bobo1024bo3bo$20b3o597bo655bo$19bo2bo224bo371b3o655bobo$
22bo223b3o370bob2o425bo$18bo3bo223bob2o370b3o424b3o$22bo224b3o165b3o
202b3o424bob2o$19bobo225b3o164bo2bo202b2o426b3o$247b2o168bo630b3o$17bo
399bo411bo218b2o$16b3o395bobo411b3o$15b2obo808b2obo$15b3o809b3o$15b3o
396b3o410b3o447b3o$15b3o396bo2bo410b2o219b3o224bo2bo145b3o155b3o$16b2o
396bo215b3o415bo2bo227bo144bo2bo154bo2bo$414bo3bo210bo2bo418bo227bo
147bo157bo$414bo3bo213bo414bo3bo224bobo148bo157bo$414bo213bo3bo418bo
372bobo155bobo$415bobo210bo3bo415bobo$632bo$629bobo2$837b3o$836bo2bo$
839bo$839bo$836bobo125$952bo$233bo716b2o$232bo565bo152b2o$232b3o146bob
o413bo$34bobo344b2o414b3o$34b2o346bo$35bo6$535bobo$535b2o$536bo$675bob
o$675b2o$676bo14$936b3o$787b3o146bo2bo$786bo2bo146bo$789bo146bo3bo$
785bo3bo146bo3bo$789bo146bo$786bobo148bobo3$372b3o$371bo2bo$26b3o195b
3o147bo$25bo2bo194bo2bo147bo$28bo197bo144bobo$24bo3bo193bo3bo$24bo3bo
187bo5bo3bo141bo419b3o$28bo186b3o8bo140b3o417bo2bo$25bobo186b2obo5bobo
140b2obo420bo$214b3o149b3o157b3o261bo$214b3o149b3o156bo2bo258bobo$214b
3o149b3o159bo413b3o$215b2o150b2o159bo137b3o272bo2bo$525bobo137bo2bo
275bo$668bo275bo$522bo145bo272bobo$521b3o141bobo$520b2obo$520b3o139bo$
520b3o138b3o$521b2o137b2obo$660b3o$14b3o644b2o$14bo2bo$14bo$14bo$15bob
o78$206bobo$207b2o$207bo28$29bo$30b2o$29b2o24$221bo$220b3o$220bob2o$
221b3o$221b3o$41bo179b2o$40b3o$40bob2o$41b3o$41b3o$41b3o$41b2o16$215b
3o$215bo2bo$36b3o176bo$36bo2bo175bo$36bo179bobo$36bo3bo$36bo3bo$36bo$
37bobo139$58b3o$60bo$59bo4$74bo$73b3o$73bob2o$74b3o$74b3o$74b3o$74b2o
5$66b3o$66bo2bo$66bo$66bo3bo$66bo3bo$66bo$67bobo100$142bo$141bo$141b3o
16$70bobo$70b2o$71bo21$132b3o$131bo2bo$134bo$130bo3bo$134bo$131bobo2$
55bo$54b3o$53b2obo$53b3o$53b3o$53b3o5b3o$54b2o4bo2bo$63bo$63bo$60bobo
13$132b3o$131bo2bo$134bo$134bo$131bobo!


EDIT Using mentioned above, I've built an adjustable 180% turner for HWSS:

x = 166, y = 103, rule = B3/S23
31$59bo$57bobo$58b2o12$143bo$143bobo$143b2o6$135b3o$134bo2bo$137bo$
133bo3bo$137bo$134bobo4$102b2o$103b2o$102bo$147bo$146b3o$145b2obo$116b
3o26b3o$115bo2bo26b3o$118bo26b3o$114bo3bo27b2o$114bo3bo$118bo$115bobo
4$110bo$109b3o$109bob2o$110b3o$110b3o$110b3o$110b2o!


And this is the only recipe needed for HWSS turners, as it can fit in all 4 HWSS in the SLs reader!

x = 133, y = 315, rule = B3/S23
41bobo$44bo$40bo3bo$40bo3bo$44bo$41bo2bo$42b3o92$bobo$4bo$o3bo$o3bo$4b
o$bo2bo$2b3o81$49b2o$48b3o$48b3o$48b3o$48b2obo$49b3o$50bo6$34b2o$33b3o
$33b3o$33b2obo$34b3o$35bo44$15bo$13bobo$14b2o12$99bo$99bobo$99b2o3$
127bo$127bobo$127b2o$91b3o$90bo2bo$93bo$89bo3bo$93bo$90bobo26b3o$118bo
2bo$121bo$117bo3bo$58b2o61bo$59b2o57bobo$58bo$103bo$102b3o$101b2obo$
72b3o26b3o$71bo2bo26b3o$74bo26b3o27bo$70bo3bo27b2o26b3o$70bo3bo54b2obo
$74bo54b3o$71bobo55b3o$129b3o$130b2o2$66bo$65b3o$65bob2o$66b3o$66b3o$
66b3o$66b2o14$40b2o$40b2o!


And fits the 337 goal:

x = 150, y = 151, rule = B3/S23
11$65b2o$64b3o$64b3o$64b3o$64b2obo$65b3o$66bo4$61b2o$60b3o$50b2o8b3o$
49b3o8b3o$49b3o8b2obo$49b2obo8b3o$50b3o9bo$51bo55$28bo$29bo$27b3o12$
112bo$111bo$111b3o5$104b3o$104bo2bo$104bo$104bo3bo$104bo$105bobo4$72bo
$72b2o$71bobo$116bo$115b3o$115bob2o$85b3o28b3o$85bo2bo27b3o$85bo30b3o$
85bo3bo26b2o$85bo3bo$85bo$86bobo4$79bo$78b3o$77b2obo$77b3o$77b3o$77b3o
$78b2o!
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby Alexey_Nigin » November 14th, 2014, 7:21 am

Michael Simkin wrote:Hey Alexey it's cool idea that I can't see working unfortunately. The reason is that upward stream capable of activating SLs will not move those SLs up (while those SLs are the "actual" caterpillar material). This is unpleasant feature of this mechanism. Any stream that activates SLs will move those SLs in opposite direction of its movement, so the only way to move the front is using helices and not stream that activate SLs.


I did not mean that streams (A) and (B) will be identical. I do not see any reason why a stream cannot move SLs forward. Do I miss anything?

Anyway, even if this is theoretically possible, it will of course be very difficult to construct 2 compatible streams. So we should probably forget about this idea unless somebody wants to spend a century on it.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 14th, 2014, 1:20 pm

Alexey_Nigin wrote: I do not see any reason why a stream cannot move SLs forward. Do I miss anything?


WOW! Alexey you right! It's possible to move the stream forward. I was trying to prove you wrong, and then I saw this:

x = 18, y = 32, rule = B3/S23
10b2o$10b2o14$15b3o$4b3o7bo2bo$3bo2bo10bo$6bo6bo3bo$2bo3bo10bo$2bo3bo
7bobo$6bo$3bobo3$2b3o$bo2bo$4bo$o3bo$o3bo$4bo$bobo!


This hit me in the face! Block -> two forward gliders converter (obviously some mess should be removed, but it's simple enough task). Each glider can then be converted back to block, and yet again into two forward gliders creating a moved block with simple adjustable mechanism!!

This is great! Thx Alexey.

I'll post the finished recipe soon, so be tuned.
Last edited by simsim314 on November 14th, 2014, 2:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby codeholic » November 14th, 2014, 2:07 pm

Did I get it right, that there should be actually two tapes in this design, and either spaceship stream should build another one using its own tape?
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 14th, 2014, 2:43 pm

codeholic wrote:Did I get it right


Yep. The only important detail is that tape A will move SLs forward and tape B backward at same step. Because the tape readers are speed adjustable, they simply can be made to have the same period.

As for more complex issue of correct and efficient SL placement (backward and forward), this will be done in similar way to the 5 WSS reader - converting SL into glider, manipulating it, and eventually placing it in the correct spot. I'll hopefully post more specific designs soon.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby Alexey_Nigin » November 14th, 2014, 3:45 pm

I wrote:to spend a century on it.

Michael Simkin wrote:and then I saw this:


Great! Sometimes I am pleased when my estimates turn out to be incorrect!
Last edited by Alexey_Nigin on November 15th, 2014, 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 14th, 2014, 6:48 pm

Once again thx to Alexey that "showed the way" of optimizing the "caterpillar" idea to it's maximal potential. Although at this point it's should not be called caterpillar but some other creature like gemnipillar or something.

Here are the recipes. I modified both the front and the back SL movement to be 59 cells (I hope it will solve some problems in the slow salvo, as it creates problems with tight *WSS placement + costs extra *WSS - which worth it only for better slow salvo, otherwise one can reflect the glider with 2 *WSS):

Backwards:
x = 188, y = 469, rule = B3/S23
31$123bobo$122bo$122bo3bo$122bo3bo$122bo$122bo2bo$122b3o146$167b2o$
166b3o$166b3o$166b3o$166b2obo$167b3o$168bo80$121bobo$120bo$120bo3bo$
120bo3bo$120bo$120bo2bo$120b3o55$131b2o$131b3o$131b3o$130bob2o$130b3o$
131bo7$110bobo$109bo6b2o$109bo3bobo2bo$109bo5bobo$109bo2bo3bo$109b3o
26$116b2o$115bo2bo$115bobo$116bo57$116b2o$115bo2bo$115bobo$116bo!


Forward:
x = 80, y = 372, rule = B3/S23
46b2o$46b3o$46b3o$46b3o$45bob2o$45b3o$46bo13$77b2o$77b3o$76bob2o$76b3o
$77bo12$22b2o$21b3o$21b2obo$22b3o$23bo$obo$3bo$3bo$o2bo$b3o3$4bobo$3bo
$3bo3bo$3bo3bo$3bo$3bo2bo$3b3o46$31bobo$34bo$30bo3bo$30bo3bo$34bo$31bo
2bo$32b3o4$35bobo$38bo$34bo3bo7bobo$34bo3bo10bo$38bo6bo3bo$35bo2bo10bo
$36b3o7bo2bo$47b3o14$42b2o$42b2o29$42b2o$42b2o59$42b2o$42b2o29$42b2o$
42b2o59$42b2o$42b2o29$42b2o$42b2o29$42b2o$42b2o!


Notice the mechanism is very adjustable. The loaf allows switching the back parity. Jason Samer's collection allows any parity in reflection, and the fact there is a reflection allows to adjust the step.

Another point to note, is that if it's useless to have odd step of 59 and it will give the same slow salvo issues, or if for some reason 58 or some even number is OK, this will get us out of trouble in very tight *WSS salvo on the odd reflector in the forward recipe.

Anyway we're at very good place - reducing the problem to 12-13 slow salvos generating *WSS. This is significantly smaller than the original caterpillar, and maybe 4 times bigger than the centipede.

EDIT While I'm on it, here are recipes for step of 58:

x = 318, y = 410, rule = B3/S23
261bobo$260bo$260bo$260bo2bo$260b3o140$315b2o$314b3o$314b3o$314b3o$
314b2obo$315b3o$316bo36$44bobo$47bo$43bo3bo$43bo3bo$47bo$44bo2bo$45b3o
13$77b2o$77b3o$76bob2o$76b3o$77bo13$15bobo$14bo$14bo3bo$14bo3bo$14bo$
14bo2bo$14b3o2$bobo265bobo$o267bo$o3bo263bo3bo$o3bo263bo3bo$o267bo$o2b
o264bo2bo$3o265b3o49$31bobo$34bo$30bo3bo$30bo3bo$34bo$31bo2bo$32b3o
244b2o$279b3o$279b3o$278bob2o$35bobo240b3o$38bo240bo$34bo3bo7bobo$34bo
3bo10bo$38bo6bo3bo$35bo2bo10bo$36b3o7bo2bo$47b3o$258bobo$257bo6b2o$
257bo3bobo2bo$257bo5bobo$257bo2bo3bo$257b3o8$42b2o$42b2o17$264b2o$263b
o2bo$263bobo$264bo11$42b2o$42b2o29$42b2o$42b2o15$264b2o$263bo2bo$263bo
bo$264bo11$42b2o$42b2o!


EDIT2 Here is 8 *WSS forward 59, but with well separated *WSS - so no construction issues should be encountered with slow salvo.

x = 77, y = 322, rule = B3/S23
33bobo$36bo$32bo3bo$32bo3bo$36bo$33bo2bo$34b3o4$44bobo$47bo$43bo3bo$
47bo$44bo2bo$45b3o31$15bobo56b2o$18bo55b3o$14bo3bo55b3o$14bo3bo55b3o$
18bo54bob2o$15bo2bo54b3o$16b3o55bo2$bobo$4bo$o3bo$o3bo$4bo$bo2bo$2b3o
54$40bobo$39bo$39bo3bo$39bo3bo$39bo$39bo2bo$39b3o55$50b2o$50b3o$50b3o$
49bob2o$49b3o$50bo7$29bobo$28bo6b2o$28bo3bobo2bo$28bo5bobo$28bo2bo3bo$
28b3o36$35b2o$34bo2bo$34bobo$35bo47$35b2o$34bo2bo$34bobo$35bo37$35b2o$
34bo2bo$34bobo$35bo!


EDIT3 Here is 7 WSS forward 59. Not so well separated but should suffice.

x = 63, y = 302, rule = B3/S23
40bobo$43bo$39bo3bo$39bo3bo$43bo$40bo2bo$41b3o4$51bobo$54bo$50bo3bo$
54bo$51bo2bo$52b3o38$15bobo$18bo$14bo3bo$14bo3bo$18bo$15bo2bo$16b3o2$b
obo$4bo$o3bo$o3bo$4bo$bo2bo$2b3o60$60b2o$60b3o$60b3o$59bob2o$59b3o$60b
o6$57bobo$60bo$56bo3bo$56bo3bo$60bo$57bo2bo$58b3o23$36bobo$35bo6b2o$
35bo3bobo2bo$35bo5bobo$35bo2bo3bo$35b3o36$42b2o$41bo2bo$41bobo$42bo47$
42b2o$41bo2bo$41bobo$42bo37$42b2o$41bo2bo$41bobo$42bo!
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby codeholic » November 15th, 2014, 6:12 am

simsim314 wrote:Once again thx to Alexey that "showed the way" of optimizing the "caterpillar" idea to it's maximal potential. Although at this point it's should not be called caterpillar but some other creature like gemnipillar or something.

I thought about it too. The best metaphor I could think of is "Drawing hands" lithography by M. C. Escher. But "strange loop" seems a better name.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 15th, 2014, 6:36 am

codeholic wrote: "strange loop" seems a better name.

How about caterloop (strangepilar doesn't sound).

I've also decided to use oscillation free slow salvo, to cover even periods. Here are recipe for block movements from dvgrn (9 gliders) without oscillators (see "here" for script that interprets this notation):

m1,2:E-11
m-12,11:E-9 E13 E-7
m5,12:E-9 E-29 E35
m8,9:E-9 E13 E-51
m-8,7:E9 E29 E9
m1,7:E-9 E11 E3 E-23
m10,10:E-9 E13 E9 E-51
m-10,12:E-9 E13 E-35 E-7
m-11,13:E-9 E13 E-57 E-7
m-2,1:E9 E13 E29 E5
m3,5:E-9 E-27 E-19 E7
m6,14:E-9 E-29 E-25 E35
m-6,5:E-9 E-3 E13 E-11
m-6,8:E9 E29 E-19 E9
m7,13:E-9 E-29 E-3 E35
m-7,9:E9 E29 E-41 E9
m9,11:E-9 E13 E-13 E-51
m0,4:E9 E-7 E-11 E29 E-7
m1,3:E9 E-7 E5 E29 E27
m-10,15:E-9 E13 E-57 E-59 E-7
m11,12:E-9 E13 E9 E-11 E-51
m-14,2:E9 E3 E-11 E5 E29
m2,6:E9 E23 E-5 E19 E9
m2,9:E-9 E-23 E3 E-23 E3
m-2,10:E-9 E7 E-21 E3 E-9
m-2,9:E9 E3 E-1 E-3 E-3
m-3,7:E-9 E-23 E-11 E13 E11
m4,9:E-9 E11 E-7 E-11 E3
m-4,8:E-9 E-23 E-27 E13 E-23
m-4,9:E9 E29 E-19 E-17 E9
m5,6:E-9 E7 E-19 E7 E-19
m-5,10:E9 E29 E-19 E-39 E9
m-6,11:E9 E29 E-41 E-43 E9
m-6,13:E-9 E-13 E-17 E-19 E-19
m7,16:E-9 E-29 E-25 E-27 E35
m8,15:E-9 E-29 E-25 E-5 E35
m-8,13:E-9 E13 E-35 E-33 E-7
m9,14:E-9 E-29 E-3 E-1 E35
m-9,14:E-9 E13 E-35 E-55 E-7
m1,28:E-9 E7 E7 E-17 E-5 E9
m-10,5:E-9 E-3 E11 E7 E-27 E-9
m-11,17:E-9 E-13 E-17 E-19 E-23 E-41
m13,21:E-9 E-29 E-23 E-1 E-55 E35
m17,17:E9 E29 E5 E-15 E39 E-35
m-20,18:E9 E29 E-39 E-17 E-37 E9
m-24,22:E-9 E13 E-55 E-33 E-53 E-7
m-3,19:E-9 E-29 E-5 E15 E5 E35
m-3,9:E-9 E7 E11 E13 E-21 E19
m-4,18:E9 E29 E-19 E-19 E-33 E-5
m5,24:E9 E23 E23 E-1 E3 E-3
m-5,13:E9 E29 E-41 E-43 E-45 E9
m-7,13:E9 E3 E-1 E-3 E-7 E-5
m-7,15:E-9 E13 E-35 E-33 E-53 E-7
m-7,23:E-9 E-29 E-23 E-1 E-11 E35
m-8,16:E-9 E13 E-57 E-59 E-39 E-7
m-8,22:E-9 E13 E-35 E-35 E-49 E-37
m-9,17:E-9 E13 E-57 E-59 E-61 E-7
m0,29:E-9 E-27 E-27 E-39 E-49 E-3 E-13
m-1,23:E9 E29 E-41 E-43 E-43 E-63 E1
m-13,17:E9 E29 E-19 E-39 E-21 E-1 E7
m14,23:E-9 E-29 E-25 E-25 E-3 E-57 E35
m-14,29:E9 E29 E5 E-9 E-9 E27 E27
m-15,-1:E9 E27 E29 E-1 E23 E-9 E-57
m-16,16:E-9 E7 E13 E-23 E-3 E-25 E-21
m-17,21:E-9 E13 E-35 E-55 E-37 E-17 E-9
m18,19:E9 E29 E5 E-15 E39 E-11 E-35
m-18,19:E9 E29 E-19 E-37 E-15 E-35 E9
m-18,33:E-9 E13 E-11 E-25 E-25 E11 E9
m-19,20:E9 E29 E-39 E-17 E-37 E-87 E9
m-21,12:E-9 E-3 E11 E7 E-27 E-25 E-5
m-21,9:E9 E3 E-1 E-17 E-1 E7 E33
m22,22:E9 E29 E3 E21 E-19 E-21 E-47
m-22,23:E-9 E13 E-35 E-53 E-31 E-51 E-7
m-25,13:E-9 E-13 E-17 E-33 E-17 E-9 E17
m-5,27:E-9 E13 E-57 E-59 E-59 E-79 E-15
m-6,25:E-9 E-29 E-25 E-25 E-3 E-13 E35
m-16,34:E-9 E13 E-11 E-25 E-25 E11 E-91 E9
m-17,35:E-9 E13 E-11 E-25 E-25 E11 E-113 E9
m-21,25:E-9 E13 E-57 E-57 E-35 E-83 E-55 E-7
m-23,14:E-9 E-13 E-17 E-33 E-17 E-9 E-65 E17
m-30,17:E-9 E-13 E-27 E-11 E-57 E-35 E-55 E-5
m16,36:E-9 E-29 E-5 E-17 E-17 E-7 E-19 E9 E35
m-16,-13:E-9 E7 E-5 E-3 E11 E11 E-1 E27 E-9
m-22,-8:E-9 E-13 E-17 E-15 E1 E-21 E-27 E-49 E45
m-25,-11:E9 E3 E-1 E1 E17 E-5 E-11 E-17 E61
m-28,18:E-9 E-13 E-27 E-11 E-57 E-35 E-55 E-83 E-5
m-29,19:E-9 E-13 E-27 E-11 E-57 E-35 E-55 E-105 E-5
m-29,-7:E-9 E-13 E-17 E-15 E1 E-21 E-27 E-33 E45
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 15th, 2014, 7:58 am

Trying to work out edge shooting recipes with P1. I've got this (feels a bit too heavy), will appreciate help here from the slow salvo masters :):

x = 63, y = 42, rule = B3/S23
61bo$60bo$60b3o10$20b2o$20b2o3$10b2o3b2o$6b2o2b2o3b2o$6b2o9$6bo$5bobo$
5bobo$6bo2$b2o$o2bo$b2o$36b2o$7b2o11b2o14b2o$7b2o11b2o$27b2o$27b2o$12b
2o$12b2o!


EDIT
OK this looks a better (I've added a block to remove blinker in debris):

x = 30, y = 30, rule = B3/S23
2$23b2o$23b2o10$16b2o5b2o$16b2o4bo2bo$11bo11b2o$9bobo$10b2o2$20b2o$19b
o2bo$19bobo$20bo2$13b2o$13b2o!


EDIT2 Here is blinker-less synth of edge shooting MWSS (the best I came up with):

x = 60, y = 70, rule = B3/S23
$9bo$10bo$8b3o21$40b2o$40b2o8$43b2o$43b2o4$12b2o$12b2o$41b2o$41b2o5$
22b2o$17b2o3b2o$17b2o29b2o$37bo9bo2bo$36bobo9b2o$36bobo$37bo6bo$43bobo
$43bobo$44bo3$43b2o$43b2o5$42b2o$41bo2bo$38bo3b2o$37bobo$37bobo$38bo!


NOTE Just noticed that non of my recipes for 59 step use LWSS anywhere. So current slow salvos P1 edge shooters are needed only for HWSS and MWSS.

Although no LWSS edge shooter needed, but in any case just for reference + some unseen design issues here it is:

x = 15, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
2b2o$2b2o2$12bo$12bobo$12b2o9$10b2o$10b2o3$b2o$obo$bo!
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 15th, 2014, 1:07 pm

We have problem with tail.

If we use codeholic's approach, the slower the caterloop will move, the more far away we will need to send the seed for the glider reflection. The further the seeds the more operations they will require. Eventually the whole loop will be mostly wasted on tail erasing slow salvo construction seeds. Another problem with this approach is timing. Because the gliders that delete the *WSS reading head are from some other reading head, each caterloop speed will require speed specific adjustments.

If we use the negative helix, it will be twice the size of the other parts of the caterloop. I guess somewhere around 5-6 *WSS will be required for step 59, and another 3 -4 to delete the reading head, making it 10 *WSS for helix function alone.

I don't see any solution for this problem yet... Although I must admit that I prefer a bigger design than more work (i.e. paying the price of negative helix, with few more salvos which to that time will already be devised, instead of designing timing oriented new slow salvo for each timing).
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby codeholic » November 15th, 2014, 1:14 pm

simsim314 wrote:The further the seeds the more operations they will require.

Hmm. Why so?
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby simsim314 » November 15th, 2014, 1:57 pm

codeholic wrote:
simsim314 wrote:
The further the seeds the more operations they will require.

Hmm. Why so?


Think the distance between Head1 and Head2 is about million ticks. Head1 will be destroyed by glider shoot from Head2 (Head1 can't be killed by glider shoot from itself obviously - because it's faster). Because everything is in steps of million ticks the reflected glider will be reflected from far away, because lets say we reflect the glider after 10000 ticks, there will be nothing there to destroy after 20000. So the reflected seeds should be more further away as the period growth. And because they further away and we're using slow salvos, pushing them this far away will take a lot of time.

Maybe we can create another *WSS that will trigger new salvo seed at that back and shoot a glider, but I'm really not so sure it will work.

By the way codeholic do you have any idea how to generate edge shooting MWSS using only P1 in more efficient way (less than 12 SLs)? (and where can I find Glue recipes for different SLs P1?)
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby codeholic » November 15th, 2014, 3:12 pm

simsim314 wrote:Head1 can't be killed by glider shoot from itself obviously - because it's faster

That's not obvious to me. The only conclusion I can make up from it is that the whole spaceship's velocity should be less than c/4.
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Re: David Bell's engineless caterpillar idea revisited

Postby codeholic » November 15th, 2014, 3:16 pm

simsim314 wrote:By the way codeholic do you have any idea how to generate edge shooting MWSS using only P1 in more efficient way (less than 12 SLs)? (and where can I find Glue recipes for different SLs P1?)

I'll take a look when I've got time. But if you're faster, there might be something in these threads:

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