ConwayLife.com - A community for Conway's Game of Life and related cellular automata
Home  •  LifeWiki  •  Forums  •  Download Golly

Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby codeholic » December 28th, 2015, 3:52 am

chris_c wrote:I made a 0hd-Demonoid gun of period 660 * 4 * 3^6 that shoots 0hd-Demonoids of period 660 * 3^6 (approx 480,000).

That's c/7402 diagonal, isn't it? (I've updated Game of Life Status page on LifeWiki.)
Ivan Fomichev
User avatar
codeholic
Moderator
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: September 13th, 2011, 8:23 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » December 28th, 2015, 12:01 pm

codeholic wrote:
chris_c wrote:I made a 0hd-Demonoid gun of period 660 * 4 * 3^6 that shoots 0hd-Demonoids of period 660 * 3^6 (approx 480,000).

That's c/7402 diagonal, isn't it? (I've updated Game of Life Status page on LifeWiki.)

Close, but not exactly. Those Demonoids' speed is c/(7402 + 2/13), or 13/96228.

The diagonal step size is 65, so an exact c/N speed would have required building guns with some multiple-of-65 period. That wouldn't really be very difficult, just a little bigger and more awkward than the p660 base period that chris_c chose.
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby codeholic » December 28th, 2015, 3:27 pm

Thanks, fixed.
Ivan Fomichev
User avatar
codeholic
Moderator
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: September 13th, 2011, 8:23 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » May 14th, 2016, 11:44 pm

In the Pattern of the Year 2015 thread, simsim314 wrote:#2. Demonoids. As I consider Gemini one of the most beautiful design patterns of all times, Demonoid 0hd brings the best of them all into single neat and spectacular self replicating spaceship.

Why I like Demonoid 0hd:

1. It's the smallest designed ship of all times. Compare it to the original Gemini: its replication cycle is 75 times faster, and the cell count is 30 times smaller. This is reduction of almost two orders of magnitude (!). I can't think of any design pattern that was improved by so much. It looks more like Geminoid from GeminoidParticles rule, than Gemini.

Well, there are a few other similar cases. Check out Bill Gosper's original period-1100 MWSS gun, circa 1984:

#C pure p1100 double MWSS gun, built by recirculating gliders
#C reflected by p100 'centinal' oscillators.
#C Bill Gosper, circa 1984.
x = 12112, y = 13584, rule = B3/S23
...
[see p1100-MWSS-gun.py in Golly's Scripts/Python.] A quarter century later, it was possible to build a p1100 MWSS gun that fits happily between most of the adjacent glider lanes in the original gun --

#C p1100 MWSS gun (centinals and Herschels)
#C Dave Greene, 28 September 2007
x = 288, y = 256, rule = B3/S23
93boo48boo$94bo48bo$94bobo9boo19bo13bobo$95boo7bo4b3o13bobbo5bo6boo$
102boo6b3o15bo5boo$102bo8bobo10bo10boo$102bo8bobo10bo3boo4boo$103bo3b
6o12b5o$$103bo3b6o12b5o$102bo8bobo10bo3boo4boo$102bo8bobo10bo10boo$
102boo6b3o15bo5boo$95boo7bo4b3o13bobbo5bo6boo$94bobo9boo19bo13bobo$94b
o48bo$93boo48boo3$88bo15bo$88b3o11b3o$91bo9bo$90boo9boo4$112boo$113boo
$112bo3$93bo5bo$92b3o3b3o$91boobbobobboo$93b3ob3o4$93boo3boo$93boo3boo
11$20boo48boo21boo3boo$21bo48bo22boo3boo$21bobo10bo10boo21bobo$22boo
10boo9boo9b3o9boo$32bob3o18bo4bo33bo3bo$25boo9boo16bo5bo4boo25bobbobo
bbo$o15bo10bo7boo18bo8bobbo24bobbobobbo$3o11b3o18bo20boo7bo26b3o3b3o$
3bo9bo$bboo9boo20bo20boo7bo$27bo7boo18bo8bobbo$25boo9boo16bo5bo4boo$
32bob3o18bo4bo$22boo10boo9boo9b3o9boo$21bobo10bo10boo21bobo$21bo48bo$
20boo48boo$90boo9boo$4bo7bo78bo9bo$3bobbo3bobbo74b3o11b3o$7bobo78bo15b
o$7bobo$7bobo$3bobbo3bobbo$4b3o3b3o7$bboo9boo$bboo9boo6$5bo5bo$4b3o3b
3o$4bobooboobo$6booboo$6booboo$6booboo11$bboo9boo$3bo9bo$3o11b3o$o15bo
41$159bo$157b3o$156bo$156boo$144bo$144b3o$147bo$146boo$199bo$91boo104b
3o$91boo67boo11bo22bo$63bo15bo80boo11b3o20boo$63b3o11b3o96bo$66bo9bo
98boo$65boo9boo$206bo42bo$109bo96b3o38b3o13bo$108bobo98bo36bo16b3o$
108bobbo96boo11boo23boo18bo$109boo110boo42boo$95bo69boo$93bobobboo37b
oo26boo$94boobboo37boo3$69booboo$69booboo181boo$69booboo88boo32boo57b
oo$67bobooboobo86bo20boo11boo34boo$67b3o3b3o9boo76bo20bo46bobo52boo$
68bo5bo10boo75boo17b3o47bo54boo$89boo90bo48boo10boo$88bobo152bo$88bo
151b3o9boo$87boo151bo11bo19boo$100boo119boo30bo17bobo$65boo9boo22boo
119bo30boo17bo$65boo9boo144b3o45boo$224bo$102boo$102boo4$67b3o3b3o$66b
obbo3bobbo$70bobo$70bobo$70bobo$66bobbo3bobbo$67bo7bo9$65boo9boo$66bo
9bo$63b3o11b3o$63bo15bo29$122boo48boo$123bo48bo$123bobo44bobo$124boo
10b3o19boo10boo$134bo3boo16boobbo$130boobbobobboo15bobb3obboo$130boobo
5bo16bo4bobboo$134b5o18b5o$$134b5o18b5o$130boobo5bo16bo4bobboo$130boo
bbobobboo15bobb3obboo$134bo3boo16boobbo$124boo10b3o19boo10boo$123bobo
44bobo$123bo48bo$122boo48boo!

-- and we didn't even have Snarks or syringes or small H-to-MWSSes yet! I wonder how much smaller it would be now.

Anyway...

simsim314 wrote:2. It's the first self constructing ship that uses latest novelties. Eater2 synth kit, synthesizable syringe, correctly utilizes self destruct, and uses 0hd recipes kit. It's basically well executed, the edge of the current technology ship. This ship just couldn't be done in the past year.

Hmm, but we have much better eater2 seeds now...

simsim314 wrote:3.On top of this all, the 0-hd uses doubled tape trick, it's amazing and very simple idea, which deserves special exclamation mark.

... And this year there's simeks' single-channel construction toolkit still coming along, which might cut the population somewhat, though maybe not the period or the bounding box.

Now I can't decide if a new 2016 edition of the Demonoid should try out the single-channel toolkit, or just replace the ugly eater2+fishhook synthesis, or if it's worth trying other optimizations, like reworking the gp-compiler to take alternate recipe options into account.

(The gp-compiler is the one that takes a list of lanes as input, and produces the actual glider pairs that will come in to the construction-arm circuits. There ought to be another compiler stage, that takes any Spartan constellation as input and produces an optimized slow salvo... but nobody seems to have gotten around to writing that yet. Maybe 2016 will be the year.)

The simplest alternate-recipe case for the gp-compiler involves checking the elbow-op library whenever you have to delete a block (for example) and picking the cheapest of six nearby lanes. More complicated is picking the best possible ordering when there are several independent gliders in a slow salvo -- maybe they all delete junk, or they modify different parts of the construction.

Probably the self-destruct system could be optimized quite a bit, also, come to think of it. That would be another place where it would be nice to have a halfway decent algorithm to place self-destruct seeds, but I haven't been able to come up with a reasonable angle of approach yet --!
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby simsim314 » May 15th, 2016, 2:14 am

dvgrn wrote:Well, there are a few other similar cases. Check out Bill Gosper's original period-1100 MWSS gun, circa 1984:


Well you won't get X30-X70 improvement more like X10 improvement or even less. Its cell count is not that high ~670, while p120 has minimum 36 cells and you would need 3 of those in somewhat different phases (using syringe + H->MWSS will cost even more). You'll get period reduction of X9 and cell count reduction of X5. The Demonoid improvement is another order of magnitude (!).

To give some proportions - you'll need MWSS gun with 20 cells, and period 15 to be in the range of the Demonoid reduction.

I think another good candidate is syringe vs. the first G->H yet it's still X68 recovery time reduction but only X15 cell count reduction (you get some more if you add the eaters to block the extra gliders). And this is somewhat cheating as the first stable reflector was just proof of concept and never was intended as a real "production grade" design (it was just a sketch).

x = 555, y = 460, rule = B3/S23
368bo$366b3o$365bo$365boo5$355bo$353bobo19bo$354boo17b3o$372bo$372boo$
350boo$350boo6$362boo$362boo$376boo$376boo$380boo$380boo14$356boo$356b
obo$357bo7$352boboo$352boobo$$361boo$361boo24$388bo$349boo35b3o$349boo
34bo$385boo3$354boo$354boo$350boo$350boo3$356boo$356boo14boo23bo$373bo
22bobo$370b3o8boo14bo$370bo11bo$379b3o$359bo19bo$359b3o$362bo31boo$
361boo31bobo$396bo$396boo$378boboo$378boobo$$387boo$387boo24$414bo$
375boo35b3o$375boo34bo$411boo3$380boo$380boo$376boo$376boo3$382boo$
382boo14boo23bo$399bo22bobo$396b3o8boo14bo$396bo11bo$405b3o$385bo19bo$
385b3o$388bo31boo$387boo31bobo$422bo$422boo$404boboo$404boobo$$413boo$
413boo24$440bo$401boo35b3o$401boo34bo$437boo3$406boo$406boo$402boo$
402boo3$408boo$408boo14boo23bo$425bo22bobo$422b3o8boo14bo$422bo11bo$
431b3o$411bo19bo$411b3o$414bo31boo$413boo31bobo$448bo$448boo$430boboo$
430boobo$$439boo$439boo24$466bo$427boo35b3o$427boo34bo$463boo3$432boo$
432boo$428boo$428boo3$434boo$434boo14boo23bo$451bo22bobo$448b3o8boo14b
o$448bo11bo$457b3o$437bo19bo$437b3o$440bo31boo$439boo31bobo$474bo$474b
oo$456boboo$456boobo$$465boo$465boo24$492bo$453boo35b3o$453boo34bo$
489boo3$458boo$458boo$454boo$454boo3$460boo$460boo14boo23bo$477bo22bob
o$474b3o8boo14bo$474bo11bo$483b3o$463bo19bo$463b3o$466bo31boo$465boo
31bobo$500bo$500boo$482boboo$482boobo$$491boo$491boo24$518bo$479boo35b
3o$479boo34bo$515boo3$484boo$484boo$480boo$480boo3$486boo$486boo14boo
23bo$503bo22bobo$500b3o8boo14bo$500bo11bo$509b3o$489bo19bo$489b3o$492b
o31boo$491boo31bobo$526bo$526boo$508boboo$508boobo$$517boo$517boo3$44b
oo$44bo$45bo11bo$44boo9b3o$54bo$54boo10boo$66bo17boo$64bobo17bo$64boo
19bo11bo$41boo41boo9b3o$41boo51bo$94boo10boo$106bo17boo$104bobo17bo$
104boo19bo11bo$81boo41boo9b3o$34bo46boo51bo$134boo10boo$50boo94bo17boo
$51bo92bobo17bo$48b3o93boo19bo11bo$48bo72boo41boo9b3o366bo$121boo51bo
330boo35b3o$174boo10boo317boo34bo$15boo73boo94bo17boo335boo$15boo3boo
69bo92bobo17bo$20boo66b3o93boo19bo11bo$88bo72boo41boo9b3o292boo$161boo
51bo295boo$21boo191boo10boo278boo$bo12boo5bo108boo94bo17boo260boo$obo
11boo6b3o106bo92bobo17bo$bo22bo103b3o93boo19bo11bo$128bo72boo41boo9b3o
254boo$201boo51bo257boo14boo23bo$254boo10boo261bo22bobo$170boo94bo17b
oo240b3o8boo14bo$171bo92bobo17bo241bo11bo$168b3o93boo19bo11bo237b3o$
168bo72boo41boo9b3o237bo$241boo51bo$294boo10boo242boo$210boo94bo17boo
224bobo$211bo92bobo17bo227bo$208b3o93boo19bo11bo214boo$208bo72boo41boo
9b3o196boboo$281boo51bo199boobo$334boo10boo$250boo94bo17boo177boo$251b
o92bobo17bo178boo$248b3o93boo19bo11bo$248bo72boo41boo9b3o$321boo51bo$
374boo10boo$290boo94bo17boo$291bo92bobo17bo$288b3o93boo19bo11bo$288bo
72boo41boo9b3o$361boo51bo$414boo10boo$330boo94bo17boo$331bo92bobo17bo$
328b3o93boo19bo11bo$328bo72boo41boo9b3o$401boo51bo78boo$454boo10boo66b
o$370boo94bo17boo48bobo$371bo92bobo17bo50boo$368b3o93boo19bo11bo$368bo
72boo41boo9b3o$441boo51bo$494boo10boo$410boo94bo17boo$411bo92bobo17bo
6boo$408b3o93boo19bo6bo$408bo72boo41boo6bobo$481boo50boo$$450boo$451bo
94boo$448b3o95bobo$448bo72boo25bo$521boo25boo$$490boo$491bo$488b3o$
488bo$528boo$529bo$526b3o6bo$526bo7bobo$535bo!



dvgrn wrote:Hmm, but we have much better eater2 seeds now...


There is no perfect pattern of this size, still compare it to any other working Geminoid.

dvgrn wrote:Now I can't decide if a new 2016 edition of the Demonoid should try out the single-channel toolkit, or just replace the ugly eater2+fishhook synthesis, or if it's worth trying other optimizations, like reworking the gp-compiler to take alternate recipe options into account.


I think eater2+fishook is very minor (less than 1% improvement).
single-channel kit will probably improve by 5-10%.
better self destruct might get you somewhere in 10-15% range with a lot of effort.
better gp-compiler can get you to 10-20% improvement.

How about using p120 (for reset) + the old spartan receiver? You will just need to adjust the op-toolkit, and it shouldn't be too hard. Drying out p120 should be also pretty simple task. Or is it too big of a project?

I think Orthogonoid although wouldn't be smaller than the Demonoid is also interesting, as the first pattern that uses *WSS to pass a signal instead of gliders.
User avatar
simsim314
 
Posts: 1516
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 1:27 pm

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby codeholic » May 15th, 2016, 9:24 am

If I understand anything, the problem with using p120 for reset is that it's useless with Simon's fast salvos.
Ivan Fomichev
User avatar
codeholic
Moderator
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: September 13th, 2011, 8:23 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » May 15th, 2016, 9:39 am

simsim314 wrote:I think another good candidate is syringe vs. the first G->H yet it's still X68 recovery time reduction but only X15 cell count reduction (you get some more if you add the eaters to block the extra gliders). And this is somewhat cheating as the first stable reflector was just proof of concept and never was intended as a real "production grade" design (it was just a sketch).

Well, in point of fact the prototype Spartan construction arm was also supposed to be just a proof of concept. It was just the first thing that Paul Chapman could patch together in a late-night construction marathon, once the design of the static tape and the switching system were worked out.

The plan was to rebuild the prototype universal constructor completely -- it could have been probably several times smaller with known technology... but that didn't happen for half a decade, and then Andrew Wade used three copies of the original unaltered prototype to build the Gemini. That made the Gemini kind of an artificially easy target to improve on...!

simsim314 wrote:
dvgrn wrote:Hmm, but we have much better eater2 seeds now...

There is no perfect pattern of this size, still compare it to any other working Geminoid.

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the Demonoid, but it's a very limited design -- can only travel diagonally, where other Geminoid designs can manage a range of oblique directions (and need a lot more circuitry to allow for this).

simsim314 wrote:How about using p120 (for reset) + the old spartan receiver? You will just need to adjust the op-toolkit, and it shouldn't be too hard. Drying out p120 should be also pretty simple task. Or is it too big of a project?

Well, doubled recipe gliders are going to increase the population by a lot, and it's not really clear that the whole design will really end up improving the period or bounding box. The old Spartan receiver has a compression rating around 117, as I recall, so the signal glider loses a lot of potential adjustability. As codeholic mentions, if simeks' single-channel library is still usable at p117, it would be a fairly restrictive subset of the full library, though it might still include a universal operation set ).

I'm actually more interested in something like a 10hd design using a freeze-dried p120 to supply one of the gliders in each pair, and circuitry with p90 repeat time. 10hd has been the most efficient glider-pair spacing of any that have been investigated so far, by a fairly good margin, and the space could still be searched much more thoroughly to get an even more enormous library -- no one has even applied the multiple-elbow idea to 10hd yet, except for the two (2,1)-pullable blocks.

And who knows, with multiple elbows it might be worth trying wider spacings than 10hd, to allow for cheaper ways to insert the signal glider stream to the p120 "carrier" stream. That whole area is wide open for investigation.

simsim314 wrote:I think Orthogonoid although wouldn't be smaller than the Demonoid is also interesting, as the first pattern that uses *WSS to pass a signal instead of gliders.

That really might be the most tempting target to look at next -- an Orthogonoid with a single-channel construction arm, or again a freeze-dried p120 if that turns out to provide a much more efficient construction library.

Will have to think about that some more, just as soon as my other projects are done -- Life Lexicon and pattern improvements for upcoming Golly release, and also finally finishing proofreading the documentation for Guam's search utility GUI, and making it generally available (!).
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby simsim314 » May 15th, 2016, 10:00 am

@dvgrn Wow Guam search utility! I was thinking about it lately - should be great addition to the current utility collection. Is there some code available?

As for the adjustability of the p120 + 0hd - I'm really doubtful it would be a problem (I remember to research that area in the new construction arms thread and almost always universality was available, I posted many recipes there with quiet small working interval and many lanes). On the other hand you actually don't need another reading unit - if 0-hd would be a problem, just add another p120, it shouldn't cost too much anyway.

I think having the first "not completely stable" Geminioid is pretty interesting, and should be more efficient.
User avatar
simsim314
 
Posts: 1516
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 1:27 pm

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » May 16th, 2016, 10:04 pm

simsim314 wrote:@dvgrn Wow Guam search utility! I was thinking about it lately - should be great addition to the current utility collection. Is there some code available?

Yes, Guam included the full source code. However, it's a Delphi project (just like Golly's predecessors, Mirek's Cellebration and Life32, by the way) with assembler inserts. I didn't even know that Delphi was still in general use, but Wikipedia says that "Embarcadero Delphi 10.1 Berlin" was just released (April 20, 2016). Guam used Delphi 7.

simsim314 wrote:As for the adjustability of the p120 + 0hd - I'm really doubtful it would be a problem (I remember to research that area in the new construction arms thread and almost always universality was available, I posted many recipes there with quiet small working interval and many lanes). On the other hand you actually don't need another reading unit - if 0-hd would be a problem, just add another p120, it shouldn't cost too much anyway.

I might be reading this wrong, but the adjustability I was worried about involved trying to use a p120 as a reset on a G-to-H, in construction-arm circuitry where construction would be done with simeks' single-channel toolkit. That might still be universal, but it's likely to be an order of magnitude less efficient.

"0hd" implies zero distance between two glider lanes. I agree that p120 + 0hd is very likely universal, and it will have a lot more elbow-op recipes than the above. But I suspect that p120 + 10hd will be something like twice as efficient as p120 + 0hd, once the full range of multi-elbow searches are done.

simsim314 wrote:I think having the first "not completely stable" Geminioid is pretty interesting, and should be more efficient.

The combination of an Orthogonoid design with a period-120 drive gun seems even more irresistible. It seems strange that the resulting spaceship wouldn't necessarily have a period that would be a multiple of 120. Here's a workable implementation of the idea, at a spacing of 128 cells:

x = 232, y = 354, rule = LifeHistory
60.A$60.3A$47.2A3.2A9.A17.A$46.B2AB.B2AB7.2A15.3A$47.2B2.3B3.B4.4B12.
A$48.3B.3B.4B4.3B11.2A$40.2A5.7B.13B11.B$41.A5.23B9.3B19.4B$41.A.AB.
19B.8B4.6B16.5B$42.2AB.29B2.10B10.8B$44.44B3.2B2.10B$44.33BD3B2A15BD
6B$44.33B2D2B2A15BDBD4B$45.33B2D18B3D4B$47.31BD21BD4B$45.32BD26B$45.
2A3.25B4.13B.4B$46.A3.20B4.B4.7B.B5.3B$43.3A6.15B7.2A15.4B$43.A8.11B
12.A15.2A$51.13B8.3A17.A$50.15B7.A16.3A$50.16B23.A$50.17B$50.16B$52.
13B$51.4B.2B2A5B$50.4B2.2B2A3B$49.B2AB2.8B$49.2BA4.2B3D3B$48.3A5.3BD
4B$48.AB7.2B3D2B$57.7B$49.A7.6B$48.A.A6.6B$48.A.A6.5B$46.3A.2A4.6B$
45.A4.B.B4.6B$46.3AB2A2B2.7B$48.A.2A10B$52.10B$52.6B2A3B$52.6B2A2B5.
2A$52.10B5.A$51.11B2.BA.A$51.12B.B2A$50.15B$49.16B$46.2B.16B$45.2A18B
$45.2AB.17B$46.B.4B.8B2.4B$53.7B4.4B$54.6B5.4B$56.4B6.4B$58.3BA5.4B$
59.BA.A5.4B$60.A.A6.4B$61.A8.4B$62.3A6.4B$64.A7.4B$73.4B$74.4B$75.4B$
76.4B$77.4B$78.4B$79.4B$80.4B$81.4B$82.4B$83.4B$84.4B$85.4B$86.4B$87.
4B$88.4B$89.4B$90.4B$91.4B$92.4B$93.4B$94.4B$95.4B$96.4B$97.4B$98.4B$
40.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.D.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.5B$40.
38BD3BD22B$40.43BD22B.B$40.38BD4BD23B2A$40.39B5D23B2A$40.65B2.B$41.B.
B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B2.2B$103.B
2A$104.A.A.2A$102.A.A.2A.A$102.2A12$87.3B$87.4B$88.4B$89.4B$90.4B$91.
4B$92.4B$93.4B$94.4B$95.4B$96.4B$97.4B$98.4B$99.4B$100.4B$101.4B$102.
4B$103.4B$104.4B$105.4B$106.4B$107.4B$108.4B$109.4B$110.4B$111.4B$
112.4B$113.4B$114.4B$115.4B$116.4B$117.4B$118.4B$119.4B$120.4B$121.4B
$122.4B$123.4B$124.4B$125.4B$126.4B$127.4B$128.4B$129.4B$130.4B$131.
4B$132.4B$133.4B$134.4B$135.4B$136.4B$137.4B$138.4B$139.4B$140.4B$
141.4B$142.4B$143.4B$144.4B$145.4B$146.4B$147.4B$148.4B$149.4B$150.4B
$151.4B$152.4B$153.4B$154.4B$155.4B$156.4B$157.4B$158.4B$159.4B$160.
4B$149.A11.4B$149.3A10.4B$152.A10.4B$151.2A11.4B$151.4B10.4B$153.3B
10.4B$141.4B2.B.3B.4B10.4B$141.4B.18B4.4B$140.2A5B2A16B4.4B$140.2A5B
2A16B5.4B$141.B.22B6.4B$143.B2A21B5.4B$144.2A7B2.13B5.4B$144.8B6.10B
6.4B$146.7B7.7B8.4B$145.10B6.8B7.4B$145.13B2.7B2A8.4B$146.8BA12B2AB8.
4B$148.4BABA15B.B7.4B$148.4B3A9B2A5B2A7.4B$148.4BA11B2A5B2A8.4B$149.
18B.4B10.4B$156.4B.3B.B2.4B11.4B$157.4B23.4B$185.4B$159.4B.B2.B18.4B$
160.9B18.4B$161.9B18.4B$161.4B2C4B3.3B12.4B$161.3BC2BC3B.6B12.4B$161.
4B2C9BA2B12.4B$41.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B
.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.D.B.B.B.B.
16BABA14.4B$40.107BD3BD24B2A15.4B$40.106BD30B17.4B$40.106BD4BD23B20.
4B$40.106B5D25B20.4B$40.136B21.4B$40.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.
B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B
.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.17B21.4B$162.16B21.4B$162.17B21.4B$162.11B3.4B21.
4B$161.13B3.4B21.4B$160.15B3.B24.4B$159.16B3.2C24.4B$158.17B3.CB25.4B
$159.16B4.3C24.4B$160.13B8.C25.4B$160.5B2A2B39.4B$162.3B2A2B40.4B$
162.8B40.4B$161.3B3D2B42.4B$161.4BD3B43.4B$161.2B3D2B45.4B$161.7B46.
4B$162.6B7.A39.4B$162.6B6.A.A39.4B$163.5B6.A.A40.4B$163.6B4.2A.3A39.
4B$148.A13.6B6.B4.A39.4B$146.3A13.7B3.B2AB3A41.4B$145.A17.8B.B2A.A44.
4B$135.2A8.2A16.10B49.4B$136.A5.5B15.3B2A6B50.4B$136.A.AB.4B11.2A5.2B
2A6B51.4B$137.2AB.6B4.B5.A5.10B51.5B$139.10B.B2A4.A.AB2.11B49.5B.2E$
123.2A14.12B2A5.2AB.12B48.4B.B.2E$123.BA2B12.11B.B8.15B46.4B3.4B$124.
ABAB2.4B3.13B10.16B44.4B5.3B$125.2A2B.5B2.12B.2B8.16B.2B40.4B6.3B$
126.25B2A7.18B2A38.4B6.BC2B$127.24B2A6.17B.B2A37.4B6.3CB$60.A67.20B.B
.B6.4B2.8B.4B.B37.4B6.C3B$60.3A34.A28.B2.20B8.4B4.7B43.4B6.B2CB$47.2A
3.2A9.A17.A15.3A12.B.3B.4B2.26B6.4B5.6B43.4B6.4B$46.B2AB.B2AB7.2A15.
3A18.A10.40B4.4B6.4B44.4B6.4B$47.2B2.3B3.B4.4B12.A20.2A3.B5.2B2A11BDB
2A21B4.4B5.A3B45.4B6.4B$48.3B.3B.4B4.3B11.2A19.8B3.2B2A9B3DB2A21B3.4B
5.A.AB45.4B6.4B$40.2A5.7B.13B11.B21.8B.13BDBD23B3.4B6.A.A45.4B6.4B$
41.A5.23B9.3B19.22BD25B2.4B8.A45.4B6.4B$41.A.AB.19B.8B4.6B16.15B.2B2.
29B.4B6.3A45.4B6.4B$42.2AB.29B2.10B10.18B8.12B.17B7.A46.4B6.4B$44.44B
3.2B2.19B11.9B2.16B54.4B6.4B$44.33BD3B2A15BD15B12.7B3.10B.4B54.4B6.4B
$44.33B2D2B2A15BDBD4B.7B18.B4.14B54.4B6.4B$45.33B2D18B3D13B23.12B54.
4B6.4B$47.31BD21BD14B22.11B54.4B6.4B$45.32BD26B2.8B23.11B53.4B6.4B$
45.2A3.25B4.13B.4B11.6B24.9B53.4B6.4B$46.A3.20B4.B4.7B.B5.3B12.5B25.
9B52.4B6.4B$43.3A6.15B7.2A15.4B14.4B20.2A3.9B51.4B6.4B$43.A8.11B12.A
15.2A16.3B22.A3.9B50.4B6.4B$51.13B8.3A17.A17.4B20.A.A9B50.4B6.4B$50.
15B7.A16.3A20.2A21.2A2.6B50.4B6.4B$50.16B23.A22.A26.6B49.4B6.4B$50.
17B46.3A23.D2B2D2B47.4B6.4B$50.16B49.A23.B3D4B2.2A41.4B6.4B$52.13B72.
4BD7BA.A39.4B6.4B$51.4B.2B2A5B72.11B3.A38.4B6.4B$50.4B2.2B2A3B74.5B2A
4B3.2A36.4B6.4B$49.B2AB2.8B74.5B2A3B41.4B6.4B$49.2BA4.2B3D3B73.10B40.
4B6.4B$48.3A5.3BD4B73.9B40.4B6.4B$48.AB7.2B3D2B73.9B39.4B6.4B$57.7B
74.8B38.4B6.4B$49.A7.6B74.8B38.4B6.4B$48.A.A6.6B75.6B38.4B6.4B$48.A.A
6.5B70.2A4.6B37.4B6.4B$46.3A.2A4.6B71.A4.6B36.4B6.4B$45.A4.B.B4.6B70.
A.AB.7B34.4B6.4B$46.3AB2A2B2.7B71.2AB2.6B33.4B6.4B$48.A.2A10B74.8B33.
4B6.4B$52.10B74.8B32.4B6.4B$52.6B2A3B74.8B30.4B6.4B$52.6B2A2B5.2A69.
7B8.A20.4B6.4B$52.10B5.A71.7B5.3A19.4B6.4B$51.11B2.BA.A71.2B3D2B4.A
21.4B6.4B$51.12B.B2A72.2BD4B4.2A19.4B6.4B$50.15B74.B3D4B.4B18.4B6.4B$
49.16B74.11B19.4B6.4B$46.2B.16B74.12B17.4B6.4B$45.2A18B74.12B16.4B6.
4B$45.2AB.17B74.11B15.4B6.4B$46.B.4B.8B2.4B76.9B13.4B6.4B$53.7B4.4B
74.10B.2B9.4B6.4B$54.6B5.4B62.3B4.B.16B7.4B6.4B$56.4B6.4B61.28B3.4B6.
4B$58.3BA5.4B59.2A33B6.4B$59.BA.A5.4B58.2A32B6.4B$60.A.A6.4B58.B.30B
6.4B$61.A8.4B59.29B6.4B$62.3A6.4B60.25B7.4B$64.A7.4B60.B5.17B7.4B$73.
4B68.14B6.4B$74.4B67.14B5.4B$75.4B67.2B4.3B8.4B$76.4B65.2B6.B8.4B$77.
4B63.B2AB13.4B$78.4B63.2A13.4B.3B.B2.4B$79.4B70.18B.4B$80.4B68.4BA11B
2A5B2A$81.4B67.4B3A9B2A5B2A$82.4B66.4BABA15B.B$83.4B63.8BA12B2AB$84.
4B61.13B2.7B2A$85.4B60.10B6.8B$86.4B60.7B7.7B$87.4B57.8B6.10B$88.4B
56.2A7B2.13B$89.4B54.B2A21B$90.4B51.B.22B$91.4B49.2A5B2A16B$92.4B48.
2A5B2A16B$93.4B48.4B.18B$94.4B47.4B2.B.3B.4B$95.4B58.3B$96.4B55.4B$
97.4B54.2A$98.4B54.A$B.C.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.
B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.5B50.3A$C3BC100B48.
A$5BC100B.B$C4BC101B2A$B5C101B2A$105B2.B$.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B
.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.
B.B.B2.2B$103.B2A$104.A.A.2A$102.A.A.2A.A$102.2A!

Looks like a power-of-two period will be possible, as well as a power-of-two offset -- it's trivially adjustable to any multiple of eight. I think there was only one-in-eight odds of that happening.

Remove the second p120 drive gun at the bottom right, and you have something even better, I think: a design with only one startup timing problem and one (trivial) shutdown timing problem, instead of two synchronized ones. It will still be an Orthogonoid, and still a not-all-stable Geminoid design -- and it could be the first design to use the single-channel toolkit, as well.

EDIT: Drat -- of course it's not quite that simple. If the p120 gun is being used to remove the beehive, and thus reduce the amount of circuitry, then only a subset of single-channel circuitry can be used. You can still use pairs of gliders with spacing as low as 90 ticks, but they have to average out to 120 ticks in the long run -- and they have to keep coming in a continuous stream.

(Well, I did add an extra white glider, which would allow careful skips of as many p120 periods as you want. You have to start up again with a -26 to -30 glider, though, because the glider takes so long to cross the H-to-MWSS. A different beehive suppression path would probably give a slightly wider startup range, at the cost of a slightly taller circuit.)

Here are the +30 and -30 gliders (white) relative to a red p120 reference glider:

x = 156, y = 201, rule = LifeHistory
64.4B$53.A11.4B$53.3A10.4B$56.A10.4B$55.2A11.4B$55.4B10.4B$56.4B10.4B
$45.4B2.B.3B.4B10.4B$45.4B.18B4.4B$44.2A5BA17B4.4B$44.2A4B3A16B5.4B$
45.B.3BA2B2A14B6.4B$47.6B2A16B5.4B$48.2B2ABA3B2.13B5.4B$48.2B4A2B6.
10B6.4B$50.2B2ABAB7.7B8.4B$42.B6.AB4A4B6.8B7.4B$42.2B5.ABA10B2.7B2A8.
4B$42.3B5.A20B2AB8.4B$42.4B6.22B.B7.4B$43.4B5.6B.9B2A5B2A7.4B$44.4B4.
16B2A5B2A8.4B$45.4B4.18B.4B10.4B$46.4B10.4B.3B.B2.4B11.3B$61.4B23.2B$
62.4B23.B2.B$63.8B.B2.B16.2B$64.13B15.3B$65.13B14.4B$66.7B2C4B3.3B8.
3B$67.5BC2BC3B.6B8.2B$68.5B2C9BA2B8.B$39.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.D.B.B.B.B.
16BABA$39.16BD3BD11B3.10B2A$39.15BD16B3.11B$39.15BD4BD11B3.9B$39.15B
5D25B$39.45B$40.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.17B$70.16B$70.17B$70.12B
2.4B$69.14B2.4B$68.16B2.B$67.18B$66.20B$67.19B$68.13B3.4B$68.5B2A2B9.
2C$70.3B2A2B9.CB$70.8B9.3C$69.3B3D2B12.C$69.4BD3B$69.2B3D2B$69.7B$70.
6B7.A$70.6B6.A.A$71.5B6.A.A$71.6B4.2A.3A$70.6B6.B4.A$70.7B3.B2AB3A37.
4B$71.8B.B2A.A28.A11.4B$71.10B32.3A10.4B$70.3B2A6B35.A10.4B$64.2A5.2B
2A6B34.2A11.4B$65.A5.10B34.4B10.4B$65.A.AB2.11B34.4B10.4B$66.2AB.12B
23.4B2.B.3B.4B10.4B$68.15B22.4B.10B2A6B4.4B$68.16B20.2A5B2A7BABA6B4.
4B$68.16B.2B17.2A5B2A7BA8B5.4B$68.18B2A17.B.22B6.4B$67.17B.B2A19.B2A
20BA5.4B$66.4B2.8B.4B.B21.2A7B2.10BABA5.4B$65.4B4.7B28.8B6.4B2A2B2A6.
4B$64.4B5.6B31.7B7.2B2A2BA8.4B$63.4B6.4B25.B6.10B6.A3B2A2B7.4B$62.2A
2B5.A3B27.2B5.13B2.3BA5B8.4B$61.A.AB5.A.AB28.3B5.16B2ABA4B8.4B$63.A6.
A.A29.4B6.15BA2BA3B.B7.4B$71.A31.4B5.6B.9B3A4B2A7.4B$68.3A33.4B4.23B
2A8.4B$68.A36.4B4.18B.4B10.4B$106.4B10.4B.3B.B2.4B11.3B$121.4B23.2B$
122.4B23.B2.B$123.8B.B2.B16.2B$124.13B15.3B$125.13B14.4B$126.7B2C4B3.
3B8.3B$127.5BC2BC3B.6B8.2B$128.5B2C9BA2B8.B$99.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.D.B.
B.B.B.16BABA$99.16BD3BD11B3.10B2A$99.15BD16B3.11B$99.15BD4BD11B3.9B$
99.15B5D25B$99.45B$100.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.17B$130.16B$130.
17B$130.12B2.4B$129.14B2.4B$128.16B2.B$127.18B$126.20B$127.19B$32.2D
94.13B3.4B$31.D.D94.5B2A2B9.2C$33.D96.3B2A2B9.CB$130.8B9.3C$129.3B3D
2B12.C$129.4BD3B$129.2B3D2B$129.7B$24.3C103.6B7.A$26.C103.6B6.A.A$25.
C105.5B6.A.A$131.6B4.2A.3A$130.6B6.B4.A$130.7B3.B2AB3A$131.8B.B2A.A$
131.10B$130.3B2A6B$124.2A5.2B2A6B$125.A5.10B$125.A.AB2.11B$126.2AB.
12B$128.15B$128.16B$128.16B.2B$128.18B2A$127.17B.B2A$126.4B2.8B.4B.B$
125.4B4.7B$124.4B5.6B$123.4B6.4B$2.2A118.2A2B5.A3B$.ABA117.A.AB5.A.AB
$3BA119.A6.A.A$3B128.A$128.3A$128.A18$99.3C$101.C$100.C5$92.2D$91.D.D
$93.D16$74.B12$62.2A$61.ABA$60.3BA$60.3B!

Any more circuit simplifications that I'm missing here? I had a tough time to get the converter geometry to work out the way I wanted, so ended up using two syringes. Two eater2s and that xs14_354cgs26 double eater still life don't seem too bad at all.

EDIT: -- But how much bigger is the pure-stable version, really, with no p120 averaging issues? And how much more efficient is the 10hd version, with two p120 guns to start up synchronously and a correspondingly trickier cleanup problem? And you'd still be tied to the timing of the beehive-cleaning p120 -- can't drift farther than +30 or -30 from the period-120 baseline, or the H-to-MWSS stage will be unhappy.
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » May 18th, 2016, 9:43 am

dvgrn wrote:EDIT: -- But how much bigger is the pure-stable version, really, with no p120 averaging issues?

It's an interesting problem getting Orthogonoid geometry to behave itself, for the pure-stable case. I'll start a new thread soon for the topic.

The problem is that combining an Orthogonoid design with simeks' single-channel toolkit requires building a near-Spartan H-to-MWSS with a repeat time about the same as the syringe+Lx200 -- just 90 ticks. Kazyan's original R64+R64 solution is much too slow to be single-channel compatible.

Luckily the H-to-MWSS reaction itself is very fast -- could be repeated in 72 ticks, if you could get rid of the extra beehive fast enough. And there are three possible directions to attack the beehive from. The fourth direction, from the southeast in the pattern below, crosses the Herschel track and so has a repeat time of 97, at least for the deletion lane I tried. There's probably still a single-channel universal set, but the other directions should allow 90-tick recovery so it seems better to use one of those.

For example, glider pairs coming from the SW can create an MWSS and delete the beehive if they're G31, G38, or G41. Here's a G38 example with a repeat time of 134 -- Spartan if we replace the Fx176 with a simpler pi eater, but just not fast enough:

x = 117, y = 81, rule = LifeHistory
101.B2.B$100.6B$100.7B$100.2B2D4B3.3B$99.2BD2BD3B.6B$98.4B2D9BA2B$94.
B.16BABA$93.20B2A$93.21B$93.19B$93.20B$93.20B$93.B.B.16B$99.14B$99.
13B$99.11B$98.13B$97.15B$96.16B$95.17B$96.16B$97.13B$97.5B2A2B$99.3B
2A2B$99.8B$98.3B3D2B$98.4BD3B$98.2B3D2B$98.7B$99.6B7.A$99.6B6.A.A$
100.5B6.A.A$100.6B4.2A.3A$99.6B6.B4.A$99.7B3.B2AB3A$100.8B.B2A.A$100.
10B$99.3B2A6B$93.2A5.2B2A6B$94.A5.10B$94.A.AB2.11B$95.2AB.12B$28.2A
67.15B$27.B2AB66.16B$27.3B67.16B.2B$28.B12.2A54.18B2A$27.3B4.B6.A54.
17B.B2A$26.5B.5B.BA.A53.4B2.8B.4B.B$26.11B.B2A53.3AB4.7B$25.14B54.3BA
5.6B$25.14B15.4B7.A26.3BA6.4B$25.14B5.2A7.4B8.3A23.4B5.A3B$25.13B5.B
2AB5.4B12.A21.4B5.A.AB$25.13B5.3B5.4B12.2A20.4B6.A.A$26.12B6.B.B3.4B
13.4B17.4B8.A$24.13B5.6B.4B16.3B15.4B6.3A$23.15B4.10B16.4B14.4B7.A$
23.28B7.2A8.5B12.4B19.A$22.28B8.A8.6B10.5B.3B.B12.3A$17.2A3.27B6.BA.A
8.8B2.18B10.A$17.A3.28B2.3B.B2A8.14BD11B2A2B5.B3.2A$14.BA.A2.12B3D21B
11.13B3D9B2A2B3.8B$11.B.BA.A3.12BD23B12.7B.4BDBD13B.8B$10.2A3BA5.11B
3D20B12.15BD19B2AB$10.2AB.3B6.33B11.19B2.2B.10BA2BAB$11.B3.2B10.31B8.
17B8.10BA2BA3B$14.4B.3B.2B.12B3.20B2.2B.15B11.9B5A5B2.2B.B$7.30B5.15B
C22B12.12B2ABCA8B$6.4BD11B2A13B6.7B.4BCBC13B.8B13.7B.4BDAD9B$6.4B3D9B
2A3B2D7B7.6B2.4B3C9B2A2B3.8B10.13B3D9B$6.4BDBD14BD6B8.6B3.4BC11B2A2B
5.B3.2A9.14BD11B$6.6BD15B2D6B6.4B6.18B10.A11.8B2.15B$.A4.10B2.2B2.7BD
3B.2A6.2B2AB12.4B.3B.B12.3A8.6B10.5B.3B$A.A3.7B10.9B2.A5.2AB.2A14.3B
20.A9.5B12.4B$A.A3.5B12.9B3.3A.A.AB18.4B28.4B14.4B$.A4.4B15.8B4.A.A
23.2A29.3B15.B2AB$26.4B.B2A4.2A23.A28.4B17.A2B$25.B2A2B.BA.A29.3A25.
2A20.3A$26.2A6.A31.A26.A21.BA$34.2A54.3A$90.A!

So to build a pure-stable Orthogonoid and dodge all the p120-related timing constraints, we'd have to add a bunch of near-Spartan circuitry to produce a G31 or G38 or G41 with better relative timing, or the equivalent with the beehive reset glider coming from the top. Obviously this can be done easily with enough circuitry, but what circuit can pull off this trick with the smallest possible number of near-Spartan still lifes?

The added circuitry should be as easy to construct as possible. Really the metric to optimize is the number of gliders in the slow salvo that constructs the circuitry. But still-life count seems like a reasonably equivalent metric, as long as there aren't a lot of catalysts packed closely together. Maybe total cell count would be an even better metric, since it correctly prefers blocks over eaters.

I particularly like the looks of this color-preserving glider reflector. It contains a couple of eater2s, but there's plenty of space between them. Like the syringe-to-H-to-MWSS combination, there's no fishhook eater needed right next to the syringe's eater2:

x = 59, y = 33, rule = LifeHistory
57.2D$4.D51.DBD$5.D49.3BD$3.3DB47.4B$4.4B10.A34.4B$5.4B7.3A33.4B$6.4B
5.A21.B13.4B$7.4B4.2A15.B3.3B11.4B$2A6.9B14.2B.6B8.5B$.A7.6B13.5B.7B
3.8B$.A.2A5.6B3.B2.2B2.26B$2.A2.A4.19BD23B$3.2AB3.20BDBD21B.3B$4.14B
2A9B3DB2A22B$5.13B2A11BDB2A21B2A$6.48B.B2A$6.17B.4B2.23B3.B$7.15B.4B
5.B2.18B$7.19B9.17B$8.17B10.17B$10.13B12.19B$9.8B4.2A.A11.18B$9.6B6.
2AB3A9.4B2.12B$9.5B8.B4.A14.11B$9.B.B9.2A.3A15.8B$10.3B9.A.A17.10B$9.
B2AB9.A.A13.A.2AB.4B2.2A$10.2A11.A12.3AB2AB7.A$35.A4.B10.3A$36.3A.2A
11.A$38.A.A$38.A.A$39.A!
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » June 26th, 2017, 9:06 am

Orthogonoids have their own thread now, so back on topic --

Reading back through this thread, it's pretty surprising how far self-construction techniques have evolved in less than three years.

The 10hd and 0hd Demonoids needed several customized construction tricks, each of which took days or weeks of collaborative research to figure out. It took over a year from the first post to a completed spaceship.

Now there are so many good pieces lying around that it's possible for one person working alone to build a new Demonoid in a weekend, with no late nights even, and plenty of time left over for other things:

single-channel-Demonoid-79c1183842.rle
single-channel Demonoid using a temporary lossless elbow -- 79c/1183842+/-8N
(334.75 KiB) Downloaded 40 times

This is the first single-channel spaceship, I believe. It comes out a little bigger in bounding box than the 0hd Demonoid, with over twice the population, and the period is almost three times as long. It doesn't take nearly as long to understand everything it's doing, though!

The 0-degree Snark construction was previously used in the triple wickstretcher and the latest spiral-growth pattern, so the biggest new features in this single-channel Demonoid are the Snark-destroy recipe (removing a lossless elbow from the construction arm) and the way the self-destruction is implemented, which is more along the lines of the original Gemini spaceship but doesn't require any extra circuitry at all. Destruction commences in the upper left corner shortly after the pattern starts running.

It appears to be possible to increase the speed to c/14982 or a little faster -- there are various places where a few more ticks can be squeezed out of the Demonoid recipe. But it takes quite a while for Golly to fold the gliders back into shape after changing the spacing, so I'll probably only compile a few more variants.

One interesting thing that I'm almost done with is a demonstration pattern that runs a single-channel construction arm through one cycle, and then stops. It will technically fit in LifeViewer, but unfortunately not in a forum posting (4000x4000+, but about 250K). It's really impressive how much faster Golly can run it, just because it's been reworked to avoid the back-and-forth glider streams.
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby simsim314 » June 26th, 2017, 11:41 am

Very impressive! I see you utilized all the latest single lane discoveries - Snark, *WSS self destruct, probably calcyman script.

I think you've definitely used the simplest replication unit possible, and moved all the hard work to the glider stream.
User avatar
simsim314
 
Posts: 1516
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 1:27 pm

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby BlinkerSpawn » June 26th, 2017, 11:50 am

This isn't my area of expertise so I'm definitely not qualified to ask questions like this but from watching the new Demonoid run for a bit the following thought ran through my mind:
A whole lot of single-channel gliders are spent creating a constellation with 0-degree gliders that could probably be made a whole lot more cheaply with single-channel gliders.
Is it possible to, say, use single-channel gliders to construct a base constellation plus an extra elbow, back up the elbow into a safer place, and then start firing 0-degree gliders?
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]
User avatar
BlinkerSpawn
 
Posts: 1448
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby gmc_nxtman » June 26th, 2017, 11:53 am

simsim314 wrote:I think you've definitely used the simplest replication unit possible, and moved all the hard work to the glider stream.


Agreed! This is very impressive.
User avatar
gmc_nxtman
 
Posts: 1043
Joined: May 26th, 2015, 7:20 pm

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby Scorbie » June 26th, 2017, 12:21 pm

dvgrn wrote: It doesn't take nearly as long to understand everything it's doing, though!
Couldn't agree more! really nice to see this!
BlinkerSpawn wrote:This isn't my area of expertise so I'm definitely not qualified to ask questions like this but from watching the new Demonoid run for a bit the following thought ran through my mind:
A whole lot of single-channel gliders are spent creating a constellation with 0-degree gliders that could probably be made a whole lot more cheaply with single-channel gliders.
Is it possible to, say, use single-channel gliders to construct a base constellation plus an extra elbow, back up the elbow into a safer place, and then start firing 0-degree gliders?
Huh, I wondered the same thing. Also a novice.
[useless]I was hoping to find an even smaller construction unit, but the output gliders were not *quite* in the appropriate direction, I think:
x = 83, y = 53, rule = LifeHistory
.BC$CBCB$.2C2B$2.4B$3.4B$4.4B$5.4B$6.4B$7.4B$8.4B$9.4B$10.4B$11.4B$
12.4B$13.4B$14.4B$15.4B$16.4B$17.4B$18.4B$19.4B43.A$20.4B42.3A$21.3BC
44.A$22.3BC34.A7.2A$23.3CB33.3A5.4B$24.4B10.A24.A6.4B$25.4B7.3A23.2A
3.8B$26.4B5.A21.B4.3B.9B$27.4B4.2A19.3B5.14B$20.2A6.9B17.6B3.16B$21.A
7.6B13.4B2.7B2.16B$21.A.2A5.6B3.B2.2B2.33B$22.A2.A4.19BD28B$23.2AB3.
20BDBD27B$24.14B2A9B3DB2A25B$25.13B2A11BDB2A21B.4B$26.51B.4B$26.17B.B
5.26B3.4B$27.15B10.B2.19B6.3B$27.15B12.19B8.2B$28.13B11.22B8.B$30.13B
8.10B2.11B$29.8B4.2A.A5.5B.5B2.11B$29.6B6.2AB3A3.4B2.4B3.9B.B2A$29.5B
8.B4.A2.3B11.8B.BA.A$29.B.B9.2A.3A4.B11.9B4.A$30.3B9.A.A5.2A10.9B5.2A
$29.B2AB9.A.A5.A10.4B2.3B$30.2A11.A7.3A6.4B4.B$53.A5.4B$58.4B$57.4B$
56.4B!

EDIT, after some thought: Huh, is this design actually possible using a snark to deflect the SW glider to NW?[/useless]
Best wishes to you, Scorbie
User avatar
Scorbie
 
Posts: 1322
Joined: December 7th, 2013, 1:05 am

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » June 26th, 2017, 12:30 pm

BlinkerSpawn wrote:A whole lot of single-channel gliders are spent creating a constellation with 0-degree gliders that could probably be made a whole lot more cheaply with single-channel gliders.
Is it possible to, say, use single-channel gliders to construct a base constellation plus an extra elbow, back up the elbow into a safer place, and then start firing 0-degree gliders?

Yes, there are a *lot* of possible optimizations here. All of the recipes used here are "off-the-shelf" versions. For example, the Snarkmaker recipe was made by starting from a standard elbow block and running a compiler to throw a standard slow-salvo recipe at it, using 0-degree gliders.

You're absolutely right that the first pile of 0-degree gliders just kind of shoves the block around a little bit. After an embarrassing length of time, there's still just a block and a couple of blinkers there, and the duplicated elbow down close to the reflector/constructor. That constellation could probably be produced with a couple of orders of magnitude fewer gliders.

But simeks hasn't published a recent version of his search code yet, so I don't know _which_ few gliders would do that job. In the bigger picture, this would only improve the Snarkmaker recipe by a fairly small fraction, and the Snarkmaker recipe isn't the majority of the whole single-channel stream anyway (though it's a sizable percentage of it).

--------------------------

I originally wanted to build the Snark from the other side, with cheap slow-salvo gliders, along with the rest of the reflector/constructor. But then the new Snark would be right in the middle of the parent's construction-arm lane, so that location couldn't be reached by the arm without moving the parent's Snark. Which would just be silly...

-- Hang on a minute, though. It does look like I missed a good trick.

The new Snark could be built by the parent construction arm, after the rest of the child reflector/constructor is finished. Just need a version of the Snark-destroy recipe that leaves an elbow behind. That's easy enough -- if nothing else, just send an elbow-duplicator recipe first. Then the Snarkmaker recipe can easily be sent by the un-bent construction arm, with no need for those tricky 0-degree gliders at all.

The same optimization described above could be applied here, except it's a different Snark orientation, 90 degrees from the old one (from the point of view of where the gliders are coming from.)

Now, 0-degree gliders are actually fairly cheap, so the Demonoid would get smaller, but not all that much smaller I think. The main improvement is not having to build the Snark so far away from the main reflector/constructor body.

Anyone want to try building that version and see how it looks? I'd be happy to help walk through the whole process, if someone is interested in getting hands-on experience in this strange new constructor-arm business.
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby BlinkerSpawn » June 26th, 2017, 1:01 pm

Scorbie wrote:I was hoping to find an even smaller construction unit, but the output gliders were not *quite* in the appropriate direction, I think:
rle!

EDIT, after some thought: Huh, is this design actually possible using a snark to deflect the SW glider to NW?[/useless]

Like this? Maybe.
x = 216, y = 216, rule = LifeHistory
143.2A$143.A.A$145.A4.2A$141.4A.2A2.A2.A$141.A2.A.A.A.A.2A$143.BABABA
.A$144.B2ABA.A$145.2B.BA$144.3B$135.2A6.4B$136.A6.B2A3B$136.A.AB3.B2A
3B$137.2AB.10B$139.13B$139.14B$139.15B$141.8B2.4B$141.6B5.4B$140.9B4.
4B$139.4B4.2A5.4B$138.4B5.A7.4B$137.4B7.3A5.4B$136.4B10.A6.4B$135.4B
19.4B$134.4B21.4B$133.4B23.4B$132.4B25.4B$131.4B27.4B$130.4B29.4B$
129.4B31.4B$128.4B33.4B$127.4B35.4B$126.4B37.4B$125.4B39.4B$124.4B41.
4B$123.4B43.4B$122.4B45.4B$121.4B47.4B$120.4B49.4B$119.4B51.4B$118.4B
53.4B$117.4B55.4B$70.2A44.4B57.4B$70.2A43.4B59.4B$114.4B61.4B$113.4B
63.4B$112.4B65.4B$111.4B67.4B$110.4B69.4B$109.4B71.4B$108.4B73.4B$
107.4B75.4B$106.4B5.A71.4B$100.B4.4B6.3A7.A11.2A49.4B$99.3B2.4B10.A5.
A.A9.B2AB49.4B$91.2A5.9B10.2A5.A.A9.3B51.4B$92.A4.9B11.B4.3A.2A9.B.B
51.4B$92.A.AB.8B11.3B2.A4.B8.5B52.4B$93.2AB.9B3.4B2.4B3.3AB2A6.6B53.
4B$95.11B2.5B.5B5.A.2A4.8B54.4B$95.11B2.10B8.13B56.4B$86.B8.22B11.13B
55.4B$86.2B8.19B12.15B55.4B$86.3B6.19B2.B10.15B56.4B$86.4B3.26B5.B.
17B56.4B$87.4B.51B57.4B$88.4B.21B2ABD11B2A13B57.4B$89.25B2AB3D9B2A14B
57.4B$90.27BDBD20B3.B2A57.4B$91.28BD19B4.A2.A57.4B$73.2A15.33B2.2B2.B
3.6B5.2A.A57.4B$73.A.A14.16B2.7B2.4B13.6B7.A58.4B$75.A4.2A8.16B3.6B
17.9B6.2A58.4B$71.4A.2A2.A2.A7.14B5.3B19.2A4.4B66.3B$71.A2.A.A.A.A.2A
10.9B.3B4.B21.A5.4B66.2B$73.BABABA.A13.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B66.B$74.B2ABA.A
14.4B6.A24.A10.4B$75.2B.BA17.4B5.3A33.4B$74.3B22.2A7.A34.4B$65.2A6.4B
22.A44.4B$66.A6.B2A3B21.3A42.4B$66.A.AB3.B2A3B23.A43.4B$67.2AB.10B66.
4B$69.13B66.4B$69.14B66.4B$69.15B66.4B$71.8B2.4B66.4B$71.6B5.4B66.4B$
70.9B4.4B66.4B$69.4B4.2A5.4B66.4B$68.4B5.A7.4B66.4B$67.4B7.3A5.4B66.
4B$66.4B10.A6.4B66.4B$65.4B19.4B66.4B$64.4B21.4B66.4B$63.4B23.4B66.4B
$62.4B25.4B66.4B$61.4B27.4B66.4B$60.4B29.4B66.4B$59.4B31.4B66.4B$58.
4B33.4B66.4B$57.4B35.4B66.4B$56.4B37.4B66.4B$55.4B39.4B66.4B$54.4B41.
4B66.4B$53.4B43.4B66.4B$52.4B45.4B66.4B$51.4B47.4B66.4B$50.4B49.4B66.
4B$49.4B51.4B66.4B$48.4B53.4B66.4B$47.4B55.4B66.4B$2A44.4B57.4B66.4B$
2A43.4B59.4B66.4B$44.4B61.4B66.4B$43.4B63.4B66.4B$42.4B65.4B66.4B$41.
4B67.4B66.4B$40.4B69.4B66.4B$39.4B71.4B66.4B$38.4B73.4B66.4B$37.4B75.
4B66.4B$36.4B5.A71.4B66.4B$30.B4.4B6.3A7.A11.2A49.4B66.4B$29.3B2.4B
10.A5.A.A9.B2AB49.4B66.4B$21.2A5.9B10.2A5.A.A9.3B51.4B66.4B$22.A4.9B
11.B4.3A.2A9.B.B51.4B66.4B$22.A.AB.8B11.3B2.A4.B8.5B52.4B66.4B$23.2AB
.9B3.4B2.4B3.3AB2A6.6B53.4B66.4B$25.11B2.5B.5B5.A.2A4.8B54.4B66.4B$
25.11B2.10B8.13B56.4B66.4B$16.B8.22B11.13B55.4B66.4B$16.2B8.19B12.15B
55.4B66.4B10.2A$16.3B6.19B2.B10.15B56.4B66.4B9.A$16.4B3.26B5.B.17B56.
4B66.4B10.A$17.4B.51B57.4B59.2A5.4B5.5A$18.4B.21B2ABD11B2A13B57.4B59.
A5.4B4.A$19.25B2AB3D9B2A14B57.4B7.A50.A.AB.7B2.B3A$20.27BDBD20B3.B2A
57.4B6.3A49.2AB.7B3.2B.A$21.28BD19B4.A2.A57.4B8.A50.12B4A$20.33B2.2B
2.B3.6B5.2A.A57.4B6.A.A49.7B2A3BAB2.2A$20.16B2.7B2.4B13.6B7.A58.4B5.A
.AB48.7B2A2B.B3A2.A$20.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A58.4B5.A3B47.10B3.B.A.2A$21.
14B5.3B19.2A4.4B66.4B6.4B44.8B8.A$24.9B.3B4.B21.A5.4B66.4B5.6B41.9B7.
2A$24.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B66.4B4.7B39.4B2.3B$25.4B6.A24.A10.4B66.4B2.8B.4B
.B31.4B3.5B$27.4B5.3A33.B3C66.17B.B2A29.4B7.2A$29.2A7.A34.C3B66.18B2A
28.4B8.A$29.A44.C3B65.16B.2B28.4B10.3A$30.3A42.4B64.16B30.4B13.A$32.A
43.4B63.15B30.4B$77.4B60.2AB.12B30.4B$78.4B58.A.AB2.11B29.4B$79.4B57.
A5.10B29.4B$80.4B55.2A5.2B2A6B28.4B$81.4B60.3B2A6B27.4B$82.4B60.10B
26.4B$83.4B59.8B.B2A.A21.4B$84.4B57.7B3.B2AB3A18.4B$85.4B56.6B6.B4.A
16.4B$86.4B56.6B4.2A.3A16.4B$87.4B55.5B6.A.A17.4B$88.4B53.6B6.A.A16.
4B$89.4B52.6B7.A16.4B$90.4B50.7B23.4B$91.4B49.2B3D2B22.4B$92.4B48.4BD
3B4.3B.2A10.4B$93.4B47.3B3D2B3.5BA.A8.4B$94.2B2C47.8B.5B3.A7.4B$95.BC
BC46.3B2A2B2.4B4.2A5.4B$96.CB45.5B2A2B.4B11.4B$143.13B11.4B$142.16B8.
4B$141.17B7.4B$142.16B6.4B$143.15B5.4B$137.2A5.13B5.4B$138.A6.10B6.4B
$138.A.AB3.10B5.4B$139.2AB.15B.4B$141.21B$142.19B$134.2A5.20B$135.A4.
22B$135.A.AB.23B$136.2AB.22B$138.23B$138.22B$139.18B$139.14B.5B$140.
12B5.2A$142.10B5.A$142.7B.B7.3A$142.8B10.A$143.3B.4B$148.4B$149.4B$
150.4B$151.4B15$172.2A$172.2A!

On an unrelated note, eventually somebody's going to have to compile that XWSS library.
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]
User avatar
BlinkerSpawn
 
Posts: 1448
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » June 26th, 2017, 1:32 pm

BlinkerSpawn wrote:
Scorbie wrote:I was hoping to find an even smaller construction unit, but the output gliders were not *quite* in the appropriate direction, I think:
rle!

EDIT, after some thought: Huh, is this design actually possible using a snark to deflect the SW glider to NW?

Like this? Maybe.
rle for new Demonoid blueprint

No reason why not. This design has the advantage of being adjustable to a Hashlife-friendly spacing, 128 spaces diagonally. Unfortunately the timing can't also be adjusted to be a power of two, so Golly won't be able to run away with it after just one cycle. EDIT: Except I was totally wrong about that -- see below. Might be interesting to see how much of a speed increase happens after 2, 4, 8... 2^N cycles, though.

BlinkerSpawn wrote:On an unrelated note, eventually somebody's going to have to compile that XWSS library.

Yes, indeed. No point in wasting time building lossless elbows, if the path is perfectly clear to do constructions by throwing *WSSes directly at the next construction site...!
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby muzik » June 26th, 2017, 3:54 pm

How small in terms of population can we go with demonoids?
2c/n spaceships project

Current priorities: see here
muzik
 
Posts: 2564
Joined: January 28th, 2016, 2:47 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby BlinkerSpawn » June 26th, 2017, 4:10 pm

dvgrn wrote:Unfortunately the timing can't also be adjusted to be a power of two, so Golly won't be able to run away with it after just one cycle.

I know I've read this a while ago but what exactly dictates whether this is possible, again?
muzik wrote:How small in terms of population can we go with demonoids?

The population is O(total_gliders), so the population limit just depends on how small we can make the constituent recipes.
As for a preliminary estimate? Not entirely certain.
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]
User avatar
BlinkerSpawn
 
Posts: 1448
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » June 26th, 2017, 4:55 pm

BlinkerSpawn wrote:
dvgrn wrote:Unfortunately the timing can't also be adjusted to be a power of two, so Golly won't be able to run away with it after just one cycle.

I know I've read this a while ago but what exactly dictates whether this is possible, again?

Well, start with a glider with its nose on (0,0), and run it through your candidate reflector/constructor for some large 2^N number of ticks, say 2048. If the output glider is a 180-degree rotated copy of the input glider, that's a good sign. The nose of the output glider also has to be the same color as the nose of the original glider (sum of X+Y coordinates is the same parity, in this case an even number). And the offset between input lanes and output lanes should be a power of two.

If all that is true, then it will be possible to get to an exact power-of-two period by moving the two halves of the Demonoid farther apart -- every one-cell step diagonally increases the period by 8N. With everything a power of two, it's guaranteed that Golly will have seen every possible hashtile after just one cycle. If enough memory is available the Demonoid will shift into hyperdrive at that point.

If the lane offset is a small multiple of a power of two, that's still pretty good. The larger hashtiles will take a few more cycles to pick up, but all the small ones will already have been seen. If the output lane is right but the phase is wrong, as in Scorbie's new reflector/constructor, then that's not so good. Golly eventually ends up having to memoize half or a quarter or an eighth of all the phases of the Demonoid. You need a lot more memory to manage that trick.

EDIT: Maybe an easier trick is to copy-paste three copies of the reflector/constructor, so you get the next copy on the diagonal. Then see how many ticks it takes for a glider to get from its starting point to the same place in the next copy:

x = 203, y = 164, rule = LifeHistory
70.2A$70.A.A$72.A4.2A$68.4A.2A2.A2.A$68.A2.A.A.A.A.2A$70.BABABA.A$71.
B2ABA.A$72.2B.BA$71.3B$62.2A6.4B$63.A6.B2A3B$63.A.AB3.B2A3B$64.2AB.
10B$66.13B$66.14B$66.15B$68.8B2.4B$68.6B5.3B$67.9B4.2B$66.4B4.2A5.B$
65.4B5.A$64.4B7.3A$63.4B10.A$62.4B$61.4B$60.4B26.B43.A40.4B$59.4B27.
2B42.3A39.4B$58.4B28.2BC44.A39.4B$57.4B29.3BC34.A7.2A40.4B$44.2A10.4B
31.3CB33.3A5.4B39.4B$45.A9.4B33.4B10.A24.A6.4B38.4B$43.A10.4B35.4B7.
3A23.2A3.8B38.4B$43.5A5.4B5.2A30.4B5.A21.B4.3B.9B39.4B$48.A4.4B5.A32.
4B4.2A19.3B5.14B37.4B$45.3AB2.7B.BA.A25.2A6.9B17.6B3.16B37.4B10.2A$
44.A.2B3.7B.B2A27.A7.6B13.4B2.7B2.16B38.4B9.A$44.4A12B29.A.2A5.6B3.B
2.2B2.33B39.4B10.A$42.2A2.BA3B2A7B30.A2.A4.19BD28B34.2A5.4B5.5A$41.A
2.3AB.2B2A7B31.2AB3.20BDBD27B34.A5.4B4.A$41.2A.A.B3.10B32.14B2A9B3DB
2A25B33.A.AB.7B2.B3A$44.A8.8B32.13B2A11BDB2A21B.4B33.2AB.7B3.2B.A$44.
2A7.9B32.51B.4B34.12B4A$54.3B2.4B31.17B.B5.26B3.4B33.7B2A3BAB2.2A$52.
5B3.4B31.15B10.B2.19B6.4B32.7B2A2B.B3A2.A$52.2A7.4B30.15B12.19B8.4B
31.10B3.B.A.2A$53.A8.4B30.13B11.22B8.4B29.8B8.A$50.3A10.4B31.13B8.10B
2.11B9.4B27.9B7.2A$50.A13.4B29.8B4.2A.A5.5B.5B2.11B10.4B25.4B2.3B$65.
4B28.6B6.2AB3A3.4B2.4B3.9B.B2A9.4B23.4B3.5B$66.4B27.5B8.B4.A2.3B11.8B
.BA.A9.4B21.4B7.2A$67.4B26.B.B9.2A.3A4.B11.9B4.A10.4B19.4B8.A$68.4B
26.3B9.A.A5.2A10.9B5.2A10.4B10.A6.4B10.3A$69.4B24.B2AB9.A.A5.A10.4B2.
3B19.4B7.3A5.4B13.A$70.4B24.2A11.A7.3A6.4B4.B21.4B5.A7.4B$71.4B46.A5.
4B28.4B4.2A5.4B$72.4B50.4B30.9B4.4B$73.4B.3B44.4B32.6B5.4B$63.A10.8B
42.4B33.8B2.4B$63.3A7.B.7B41.4B32.15B$66.A5.10B40.4B33.14B$65.2A5.12B
37.4B34.13B$65.5B.14B35.4B33.2AB.10B$67.18B34.4B33.A.AB3.B2A3B$64.22B
32.4B34.A6.B2A3B$63.23B31.4B34.2A6.4B$62.22B.B2A28.4B44.3B$61.23B.BA.
A26.4B46.2B.BA$62.22B4.A25.4B46.B2ABA.A$63.20B5.2A23.4B46.BABABA.A$
63.19B30.4B45.A2.A.A.A.A.2A$62.21B28.4B46.4A.2A2.A2.A$61.4B.15B.B2A
25.4B51.A4.2A$60.4B5.10B3.BA.A23.4B50.A.A$59.4B6.10B6.A22.4B51.2A$58.
4B5.13B5.2A20.4B$57.4B5.15B26.2A$56.4B6.16B25.2A$55.4B7.17B$54.4B8.
16B$53.4B11.13B$52.4B11.4B.2B2A5B$51.4B5.2A4.4B2.2B2A3B$50.4B7.A3.5B.
8B$49.4B8.A.A5B3.2B3D3B$48.4B10.2A.3B4.3BD4B$47.4B22.2B3D2B$46.4B23.
7B$45.4B16.A7.6B$44.4B16.A.A6.6B$43.4B17.A.A6.5B$42.4B16.3A.2A4.6B$
41.4B16.A4.B6.6B$40.4B18.3AB2AB3.7B$39.4B21.A.2AB.8B$39.2AB26.10B$39.
2A27.6B2A3B$68.6B2A2B5.2A$68.10B5.A$67.11B2.BA.A$67.12B.B2A$66.15B$
65.16B$62.2B.16B$61.2A18B$61.2AB.17B$62.B.4B.8B2.4B$69.7B4.3B$70.6B5.
2B$72.4B6.B$74.3BA$75.BA.A$B75.A.A$2B75.A$3B43.A31.3A$4B42.3A31.A$.3B
C44.A$2.3BC34.A7.2A$3.3CB33.3A5.4B39.4B$4.4B10.A24.A6.4B38.4B$5.4B7.
3A23.2A3.8B38.4B$6.4B5.A21.B4.3B.9B39.4B$7.4B4.2A19.3B5.14B37.4B$2A6.
9B17.6B3.16B37.4B10.2A$.A7.6B13.4B2.7B2.16B38.4B9.A$.A.2A5.6B3.B2.2B
2.33B39.4B10.A$2.A2.A4.19BD28B34.2A5.4B5.5A$3.2AB3.20BDBD27B34.A5.4B
4.A$4.14B2A9B3DB2A25B33.A.AB.7B2.B3A$5.13B2A11BDB2A21B.4B33.2AB.7B3.
2B.A$6.51B.4B34.12B4A$6.17B.B5.26B3.4B33.7B2A3BAB2.2A$7.15B10.B2.19B
6.4B32.7B2A2B.B3A2.A$7.15B12.19B8.4B31.10B3.B.A.2A$8.13B11.22B8.4B29.
8B8.A$10.13B8.10B2.11B9.4B27.9B7.2A$9.8B4.2A.A5.5B.5B2.11B10.4B25.4B
2.3B$9.6B6.2AB3A3.4B2.4B3.9B.B2A9.4B23.4B3.5B$9.5B8.B4.A2.3B11.8B.BA.
A9.4B21.4B7.2A$9.B.B9.2A.3A4.B11.9B4.A10.4B19.4B8.A$10.3B9.A.A5.2A10.
9B5.2A10.4B10.A6.4B10.3A$9.B2AB9.A.A5.A10.4B2.3B19.4B7.3A5.4B13.A$10.
2A11.A7.3A6.4B4.B21.4B5.A7.4B$33.A5.4B28.4B4.2A5.4B$38.4B30.9B4.4B$
37.4B32.6B5.4B$36.4B33.8B2.4B$35.4B32.15B$34.4B33.14B$33.4B34.13B$32.
4B33.2AB.10B$31.4B33.A.AB3.B2A3B$30.4B34.A6.B2A3B$29.4B34.2A6.4B$28.
4B44.3B$27.4B46.2B.BA$26.4B46.B2ABA.A$25.4B46.BABABA.A$24.4B45.A2.A.A
.A.A.2A$23.4B46.4A.2A2.A2.A$22.4B51.A4.2A$21.4B50.A.A$20.4B51.2A$20.
2A$20.2A!
#C [[ STEP 9 STOP 1024 ]]

If the number of ticks is a multiple of eight, then you're all set, as long as the output lane is adjustable.

The above is an attempt to use the other output glider from Scorbie's reflector/constructor. No luck there either. So even three (or more) Snarks won't help -- we'd have to add another syringe-based rephaser to get the required Hashlife-friendly timing.

Then again, the same applies to the new single-channel Demonoid, which doesn't even have the advantage of adjustability to a spatial power of two.

BlinkerSpawn wrote:
muzik wrote:How small in terms of population can we go with demonoids?

The population is O(total_gliders), so the population limit just depends on how small we can make the constituent recipes.

It depends. Current technology, obsessive optimization and a few new tricks might save another factor of two or so over the current 0hd Demonoid record-holder (27,250 ON cells, compared with the single-channel Demonoid's minimum of 60,672). Under 10,000 cells seems like an ambitious goal.

If someone finds a nice direct Spartan glider-to-2-glider converter that recovers as fast as a Snark, then a four-digit number of ON cells might suddenly be very easy... but I'm not holding my breath.
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby BlinkerSpawn » June 27th, 2017, 7:47 pm

dvgrn wrote:Maybe an easier trick is to copy-paste three copies of the reflector/constructor, so you get the next copy on the diagonal. Then see how many ticks it takes for a glider to get from its starting point to the same place in the next copy [...] If the number of ticks is a multiple of eight, then you're all set, as long as the output lane is adjustable.

Now I'm confused, because I did just that:
x = 305, y = 305, rule = LifeHistory
143.2A$143.A.A$145.A4.2A$141.4A.2A2.A2.A$141.A2.A.A.A.A.2A$143.BABABA
.A$144.B2ABA.A$145.2B.BA$144.3B$135.2A6.4B$136.A6.B2A3B$136.A.AB3.B2A
3B$137.2AB.10B$139.13B$139.14B$139.15B$141.8B2.4B$141.6B5.4B$140.9B4.
4B$139.4B4.2A5.4B$138.4B5.A7.4B$137.4B7.3A5.4B$136.4B10.A6.4B$135.4B
19.4B$134.4B21.4B$133.4B23.4B$132.4B25.4B$131.4B27.4B$130.4B29.4B$
129.4B31.4B$128.4B33.4B$127.4B35.4B$126.4B37.4B$125.4B39.4B$124.4B41.
4B$123.4B43.4B$122.4B45.4B$121.4B47.4B$120.4B49.4B$119.4B51.4B$118.4B
53.4B$117.4B55.4B$70.2A44.4B57.4B$70.2A43.4B59.4B$114.4B61.4B$113.4B
63.4B$112.4B65.4B$111.4B67.4B$110.4B69.4B$109.4B71.4B$108.4B73.4B$
107.4B75.4B$106.4B5.A71.4B$100.B4.4B6.3A7.A11.2A49.4B$99.3B2.4B10.A5.
A.A9.B2AB49.4B$91.2A5.9B10.2A5.A.A9.3B51.4B$92.A4.9B11.B4.3A.2A9.B.B
51.4B$92.A.AB.8B11.3B2.A4.B8.5B52.4B$93.2AB.9B3.4B2.4B3.3AB2A6.6B53.
4B$95.11B2.5B.5B5.A.2A4.8B54.4B$95.11B2.10B8.13B56.4B$86.B8.22B11.13B
55.4B$86.2B8.19B12.15B55.4B$86.3B6.19B2.B10.15B56.4B$86.4B3.26B5.B.
17B56.4B$87.4B.51B57.4B$88.4B.21B2ABD11B2A2B2D9B57.4B$89.25B2AB3D9B2A
B2D11B57.4B$90.27BDBD14BD5B3.B2A57.4B$91.28BD19B4.A2.A57.4B$73.2A15.
33B2.2B2.B3.6B5.2A.A57.4B$73.A.A14.16B2.7B2.4B13.6B7.A58.4B$75.A4.2A
8.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A58.4B$71.4A.2A2.A2.A7.14B5.3B19.2A4.4B66.3B$71.A2.A
.A.A.A.2A10.9B.3B4.B21.A5.4B66.2B$73.BABABA.A13.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B66.B$
74.B2ABA.A14.4B6.A24.A10.4B$75.2B.BA17.4B5.3A33.4B$74.3B22.2A7.A34.4B
$65.2A6.4B22.A44.4B$66.A6.B2A3B21.3A42.4B$66.A.AB3.B2A3B23.A43.4B$67.
2AB.10B66.4B$69.13B66.4B$69.14B66.4B$69.15B66.4B$71.8B2.4B66.4B$71.6B
5.4B66.4B$70.9B4.4B66.3BD$69.4B4.2A5.4B66.B2DB$68.4B5.A7.4B66.DBDB$
67.4B7.3A5.4B66.4B$66.4B10.A6.4B66.4B$65.4B19.4B66.4B$64.4B21.4B66.4B
$63.4B23.4B66.4B$62.4B25.4B66.4B$61.4B27.4B66.4B$60.4B29.4B66.4B$59.
4B31.4B66.4B$58.4B33.4B66.4B$57.4B35.4B66.4B$56.4B37.4B66.4B$55.4B39.
4B66.4B$54.4B41.4B66.4B$53.4B43.4B66.4B$52.4B45.4B66.4B$51.4B47.4B66.
4B$50.4B49.4B66.4B$49.4B51.4B66.4B$48.4B53.4B66.4B$47.4B55.4B66.4B$2A
44.4B57.4B66.4B$2A43.4B59.4B66.4B$44.4B61.4B66.4B$43.4B63.4B66.4B$42.
4B65.4B66.4B$41.4B67.4B66.4B$40.4B69.4B66.4B$39.4B71.4B66.4B$38.4B73.
4B66.4B$37.4B75.4B66.4B$36.4B5.A71.4B66.4B$30.B4.4B6.3A7.A11.2A49.4B
66.4B$29.3B2.4B10.A5.A.A9.B2AB49.4B66.4B$21.2A5.9B10.2A5.A.A9.3B51.4B
66.4B$22.A4.9B11.B4.3A.2A9.B.B51.4B66.4B$22.A.AB.8B11.3B2.A4.B8.5B52.
4B66.4B$23.2AB.9B3.4B2.4B3.3AB2A6.6B53.4B66.4B$25.11B2.5B.5B5.A.2A4.
8B54.4B66.4B$25.11B2.10B8.13B56.4B66.4B$16.B8.22B11.13B55.4B66.4B$16.
2B8.19B12.15B55.4B66.4B$16.3B6.19B2.B10.15B56.4B66.4B$16.4B3.26B5.B.
17B56.4B66.4B$17.4B.51B57.4B66.4B$18.4B.21B2ABD11B2A2B2C9B57.4B66.4B$
19.25B2AB3D9B2AB2C11B57.4B66.4B$20.27BDBD14BC5B3.B2A57.4B66.4B$21.28B
D19B4.A2.A57.4B66.4B$20.33B2.2B2.B3.6B5.2A.A57.4B66.4B$20.16B2.7B2.4B
13.6B7.A58.4B66.4B$20.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A58.4B66.4B$21.14B5.3B19.2A4.4B
66.4B66.4B$24.9B.3B4.B21.A5.4B66.4B66.4B$24.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B66.4B66.4B
$25.4B6.A24.A10.4B66.4B66.4B$27.4B5.3A33.4B66.4B66.4B$29.2A7.A34.4B
66.4B66.4B$29.A44.4B66.4B66.4B$30.3A42.4B66.4B66.4B$32.A43.4B66.4B66.
4B$77.4B66.4B66.4B$78.4B66.4B66.4B$79.4B66.4B66.4B$80.4B66.4B66.4B$
81.4B66.4B66.4B$82.4B66.4B66.4B$83.3BC66.4B66.4B$84.B2CB66.4B66.4B$
85.CBC67.4B66.4B$156.4B66.4B$157.4B66.4B$158.4B66.4B$159.4B66.4B$160.
4B66.4B$161.4B66.4B$162.4B66.4B$163.4B66.4B$164.4B66.4B$165.4B66.4B$
166.4B66.4B$167.4B66.4B$168.4B66.4B$169.4B66.4B$170.4B66.4B$171.4B66.
4B$172.4B66.4B$173.4B66.4B$174.4B66.4B$175.4B66.4B$176.4B66.4B$177.4B
66.4B$178.4B66.4B$179.4B66.4B$180.4B66.4B$181.4B66.4B$182.4B66.4B$
183.4B66.4B$184.4B66.4B$185.4B66.4B$186.4B66.4B$187.4B66.4B$188.4B66.
4B$189.4B66.4B$190.4B66.4B$191.4B66.4B$192.4B66.4B$193.4B66.4B$194.4B
66.4B$195.4B66.4B$196.4B66.4B$197.4B66.4B$198.4B66.4B$199.4B66.4B$
200.4B66.4B$201.4B66.4B$202.4B66.4B$203.4B66.4B$204.4B66.4B$205.4B66.
4B$206.4B66.4B$207.4B66.4B$208.4B66.4B$209.4B66.4B$210.4B66.4B$211.4B
66.4B$212.4B66.4B$213.4B66.4B$214.4B66.4B$215.4B66.4B$216.4B66.4B10.
2A$217.4B66.4B9.A$218.4B66.4B10.A$219.4B59.2A5.4B5.5A$220.4B59.A5.4B
4.A$221.4B7.A50.A.AB.7B2.B3A$222.4B6.3A49.2AB.7B3.2B.A$223.4B8.A50.
12B4A$224.4B6.A.A49.7B2A3BAB2.2A$225.4B5.A.AB48.7B2A2B.B3A2.A$226.4B
5.A3B47.10B3.B.A.2A$227.4B6.4B44.8B8.A$228.4B5.6B41.9B7.2A$229.4B4.7B
39.4B2.3B$230.4B2.8B.4B.B31.4B3.5B$231.17B.B2A29.4B7.2A$232.18B2A28.
4B8.A$232.16B.2B28.4B10.3A$232.16B30.4B13.A$232.15B30.4B$230.2AB.12B
30.4B$229.A.AB2.11B29.4B$229.A5.10B29.4B$228.2A5.2B2A6B28.4B$234.3B2A
6B27.4B$235.10B26.4B$235.8B.B2A.A21.4B$234.7B3.B2AB3A18.4B$234.6B6.B
4.A16.4B$235.6B4.2A.3A16.4B$235.5B6.A.A17.4B$234.6B6.A.A16.4B$234.6B
7.A16.4B$233.7B23.4B$233.2B3D2B22.4B$233.4BD3B4.3B.2A10.4B$233.3B3D2B
3.5BA.A8.4B$234.8B.5B3.A7.4B$234.3B2A2B2.4B4.2A5.4B$232.5B2A2B.4B11.
4B$232.13B11.4B$231.16B8.4B$230.17B7.4B$231.16B6.4B$232.15B5.4B$226.
2A5.13B5.4B$227.A6.10B6.4B$227.A.AB3.10B5.4B$228.2AB.15B.4B$230.21B$
231.19B$223.2A5.20B$224.A4.22B$224.A.AB.23B$225.2AB.22B$227.23B$227.
22B$228.18B$228.14B.5B$229.12B5.2A$231.10B5.A$231.7B.B7.3A$231.8B10.A
$232.3B.4B$237.4B$238.4B$239.4B$240.4B15$261.2A$261.2A!
[[ STEP 8 STOP 2048 ]]
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]
User avatar
BlinkerSpawn
 
Posts: 1448
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » June 27th, 2017, 9:12 pm

BlinkerSpawn wrote:Now I'm confused, because I did just that...

Nice! One of us was confused, and it wasn't you. I have no idea how I came out with an odd parity when I ran the same test. The laws of the Life universe must have changed since yesterday, because it sure works well now.

(And in case it isn't obvious to everyone by now, nobody should ever trust anything I say without checking it very carefully.)

Scorbie's new Demonoid might end up looking something like this:

#C 129-cell Hashlife-friendly Demonoid reflector/constructor
#C (exact same population as the last one, but 2^N-compatible in space AND time)
x = 81, y = 79, rule = B3/S23
70b2o$70bobo$72bo4b2o$68b4ob2o2bo2bo$68bo2bobobobob2o$71bobobobo$72b2o
bobo$76bo2$62b2o$63bo7b2o$63bobo5b2o$64b2o7$74b2o$74bo$75b3o$77bo17$2o
$2o10$55bo11b2o$54bobo10b2o$21b2o31bobo$22bo25b2o2b3ob2o$22bobo23bo2bo
$23b2o21bobo3b3ob2o$46b2o6bob2o7$44b2o13b2o$44b2o13b2o$74b2o$73bo2bo$
74b2obo$77bo$77b2o$62b2o$63bo$35b2o23b3o$35bo24bo$36b3o$29b2o7bo$29bo$
30b3o$32bo!

Or in the form that is easiest to compile and needs the shortest recipe, maybe this:

#C 174-cell Hashlife-friendly Demonoid reflector/constructor
x = 120, y = 78, rule = B3/S23
3b2o$4bo$2bo$2b5o14b2o$7bo13bo$4b3o12bobo$3bo15b2o$3b4o$b2o3bo3b2o$o2b
3o4b2o$2obo$3bo$3b2o3$11b2o$12bo$9b3o$9bo23$96bo11b2o$95bobo10b2o$62b
2o31bobo$63bo25b2o2b3ob2o$63bobo23bo2bo$64b2o21bobo3b3ob2o$87b2o6bob2o
7$85b2o13b2o$47b2o36b2o13b2o$47bobo65b2o$49bo4b2o58bo2bo$45b4ob2o2bo2b
o57b2obo$45bo2bobobobob2o60bo$48bobobobo63b2o$49b2obobo48b2o$53bo50bo$
76b2o23b3o$39b2o35bo24bo$40bo7b2o27b3o$40bobo5b2o20b2o7bo$41b2o27bo$
71b3o$73bo5$51b2o$51bo$52b3o$54bo!

Here's the full blueprint adjusted to all powers of 2:

Code: Select all
x = 398, y = 348, rule = LifeHistory
93.4B$92.4B$91.4B$90.4B$89.4B$88.4B83.2A$87.4B84.A.A$86.4B87.A4.2A$
85.4B84.4A.2A2.A2.A$84.4B85.A2.A.A.A.A.2A$83.4B88.BABABA.A$82.4B90.B
2ABA.A$81.4B92.2B.BA$80.4B92.3B$67.2A10.4B84.2A6.4B$68.A9.4B86.A6.B2A
3B$66.A10.4B87.A.AB3.B2A3B$66.5A5.4B5.2A82.2AB.10B$71.AD3.4B5.A85.13B
$68.3A2D.7B.BA.A85.14B$67.A.2B3.7B.B2A86.15B$67.4A12B90.8B2.4B$65.2A
2.BA3B2A7B90.6B5.4B$64.A2.3AB.2B2A7B89.9B4.4B$64.2A.A.B3.10B88.4B4.2A
5.4B$67.A8.8B86.4B5.A7.4B$67.2A7.9B84.4B7.3A5.4B$77.3B2.4B82.4B10.A6.
4B$75.5B3.4B80.4B19.4B$75.2A7.4B78.4B21.4B$76.A8.4B76.4B23.4B$73.3A
10.4B74.4B25.4B$73.A13.4B72.4B27.4B$88.4B70.4B29.4B$89.4B68.4B31.4B$
90.4B66.4B33.4B$91.4B64.4B35.4B$92.4B62.4B37.4B$52.2E39.4B60.4B39.4B$
52.2E40.4B58.4B41.4B$95.4B56.4B43.4B$96.4B54.4B45.4B$97.4B52.4B47.4B$
98.4B50.4B49.4B$99.4B48.4B51.4B$100.4B46.4B53.4B$101.4B44.4B55.4B$
102.4B42.4B57.4B$103.4B40.4B59.4B$104.4B38.4B61.4B$105.4B36.4B63.4B$
106.4B34.4B65.4B$107.4B32.4B67.4B$108.4B30.4B69.4B$109.4B28.4B71.4B$
110.4B21.B4.4B16.A11.2A43.4B$111.4B19.3B2.4B16.A.A9.B2AB43.4B$112.4B
10.2A5.9B17.A.A9.3B45.4B$113.4B10.A4.9B12.2A2.3A.2A9.B.B45.4B$114.4B
9.A.AB.8B13.A2.A4.B8.5B46.4B$115.4B9.2AB.9B3.4B2.BA.A3.3AB2A6.6B47.4B
$116.4B10.11B2.5B2.B2A6.A.2A4.8B48.4B$117.4B9.11B2.8B10.13B50.4B$118.
4B8.21B12.13B49.4B$29.4B86.4B8.19B12.15B49.4B$28.4B88.4B6.19B2.B10.
15B50.4B$27.4B90.4B3.26B5.B.17B50.4B$26.4B92.4B.51B51.4B$25.4B94.4B.
21B2ABD11B2A13B51.4B$24.4B83.2A11.25B2AB3D9B2A14B51.4B$23.4B84.A.A11.
27BDBD20B3.B2A51.4B$22.4B87.A4.2A6.28BD19B4.A2.A51.4B$21.4B84.4A.2A2.
A2.A3.33B2.2B2.B3.6B5.2A.A51.4B$20.4B85.A2.A.A.A.A.2A3.16B2.7B2.4B13.
6B7.A52.4B$19.4B88.BABABA.A6.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A52.3B$18.4B90.B2ABA.A7.
14B5.3B19.2A4.4B60.2B$17.4B92.2B.BA11.9B.3B4.B21.A5.4B60.B$16.4B92.3B
14.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B$3.2A10.4B84.2A6.4B15.4B6.A24.A10.4B$4.A9.4B86.A6.B
2A3B15.4B5.3A33.4B$2.A10.4B87.A.AB3.B2A3B17.2A7.A34.4B$2.5A5.4B5.2A
82.2AB.10B15.A44.4B$7.AD3.4B5.A85.13B15.3A42.4B$4.3A2D.7B.BA.A85.14B
16.A43.4B$3.A.2B3.7B.B2A86.15B60.4B$3.4A12B90.8B2.4B60.4B$.2A2.BA3B2A
7B90.6B5.4B60.4B$A2.3AB.2B2A7B89.9B4.4B60.4B$2A.A.B3.10B88.4B4.2A5.4B
60.4B$3.A8.8B86.4B5.A7.4B60.4B$3.2A7.9B84.4B7.3A5.4B60.3BD$13.3B2.4B
82.4B10.A6.4B60.B2DB$11.5B3.4B80.4B19.4B60.DBDB$11.2A7.4B78.4B21.4B
60.4B$12.A8.4B76.4B23.4B60.4B$9.3A10.4B74.4B25.4B60.4B$9.A13.4B72.4B
27.4B60.4B$24.4B70.4B29.4B60.4B$25.4B68.4B31.4B60.4B$26.4B66.4B33.4B
60.4B$27.4B64.4B35.4B60.4B$28.4B62.4B37.4B60.4B$29.4B60.4B39.4B60.4B$
30.4B58.4B41.4B60.4B$31.4B56.4B43.4B60.4B$32.4B54.4B45.4B60.4B$33.4B
52.4B47.4B60.4B$34.4B50.4B49.4B60.4B$35.4B48.4B51.4B60.4B$36.4B46.4B
53.4B60.4B$37.4B44.4B55.4B60.4B$38.4B42.4B57.4B60.4B$39.4B40.4B59.4B
60.4B$40.4B38.4B61.4B60.4B$41.4B36.4B63.4B60.4B$42.4B34.4B65.4B60.4B$
43.4B32.4B67.4B60.4B$44.4B30.4B69.4B60.4B$45.4B28.4B71.4B60.4B$46.4B
21.B4.4B16.A11.2A43.4B60.4B$47.4B19.3B2.4B16.A.A9.B2AB43.4B60.4B$48.
4B10.2A5.9B17.A.A9.3B45.4B60.4B$49.4B10.A4.9B12.2A2.3A.2A9.B.B45.4B
60.4B$50.4B9.A.AB.8B13.A2.A4.B8.5B46.4B60.4B$51.4B9.2AB.9B3.4B2.BA.A
3.3AB2A6.6B47.4B60.4B$52.4B10.11B2.5B2.B2A6.A.2A4.8B48.4B60.4B$53.4B
9.11B2.8B10.13B50.4B60.4B$54.4B8.21B12.13B49.4B60.4B$55.4B8.19B12.15B
49.4B60.4B$56.4B6.19B2.B10.15B50.4B60.4B$57.4B3.26B5.B.17B50.4B60.4B$
58.4B.51B51.4B60.4B$59.4B.21B2ABD11B2A13B51.4B60.4B$60.25B2AB3D9B2A
14B51.4B60.4B$61.27BDBD20B3.B2A51.4B60.4B$62.28BD19B4.A2.A51.4B60.4B$
61.33B2.2B2.B3.6B5.2A.A51.4B60.4B$61.16B2.7B2.4B13.6B7.A52.4B60.4B$
61.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A52.4B60.4B$62.14B5.3B19.2A4.4B60.4B60.4B$65.9B.3B
4.B21.A5.4B60.4B60.4B$65.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B60.4B60.4B$66.4B6.A24.A10.4B
60.4B60.4B$68.4B5.3A33.4B60.4B60.4B$70.2A7.A34.4B60.4B60.4B$70.A44.4B
60.4B60.4B$71.3A42.4B60.4B60.4B$73.A43.4B60.4B60.4B$118.4B60.4B60.4B$
119.4B60.4B60.4B$120.4B60.4B60.4B$121.4B60.4B60.4B$122.4B60.4B60.4B$
123.4B60.4B60.4B$124.3BC60.4B60.4B$125.B2CB60.4B60.4B$126.CBC61.4B60.
4B$191.4B60.4B$192.4B60.4B$193.4B60.4B$194.4B60.4B$195.4B60.4B$196.4B
60.4B$197.4B60.4B$198.4B60.4B$199.4B60.4B$200.4B60.4B$201.4B60.4B$
202.4B60.4B$203.4B60.4B$204.4B60.4B$205.4B60.4B$206.4B60.4B$207.4B60.
4B$208.4B60.4B$209.4B60.4B$210.4B60.4B$211.4B60.4B$212.4B60.4B$213.4B
60.4B$214.4B60.4B$215.4B60.4B$216.4B60.4B$217.4B60.4B$218.4B60.4B$
219.4B60.4B$220.4B60.4B$221.4B60.4B$222.4B60.4B$223.4B60.4B$224.4B60.
4B$225.4B60.4B$226.4B60.4B$227.4B60.4B$228.4B60.4B$229.4B60.4B$230.4B
60.4B$231.4B60.4B$232.4B60.4B$233.4B60.4B$234.4B60.4B$235.4B60.4B$
236.4B60.4B$237.4B60.4B$238.4B60.4B$239.4B60.4B$240.4B60.4B$241.4B60.
4B$242.4B60.4B$243.4B60.4B$244.4B60.4B$245.4B60.4B$246.4B60.4B$247.4B
60.4B$248.4B60.4B$249.4B60.4B$250.4B60.4B$251.4B60.4B$252.4B60.4B$
253.4B60.4B$254.4B60.4B$255.4B60.4B$256.4B60.4B$257.4B60.4B$258.4B60.
4B$259.4B60.4B$260.4B60.4B10.2A$261.4B60.4B9.A$262.4B7.A52.4B10.A$
263.4B6.3A44.2A5.4B5.5A$264.4B8.A44.A5.4B4.A$265.4B6.A.A43.A.AB.7B2.B
3A$266.4B5.A.AB43.2AB.7B3.2B.A$267.4B5.A3B44.12B4A$268.4B6.4B42.7B2A
3BAB2.2A$269.4B5.6B40.7B2A2B.B3A2.A$270.4B4.7B39.10B3.B.A.2A$271.4B2.
8B.4B.B31.8B8.A$272.17B.B2A29.9B7.2A$273.18B2A28.4B2.3B$273.16B.2B28.
4B3.5B$273.16B30.4B7.2A$273.15B30.4B8.A$271.2AB.12B30.4B10.3A$270.A.A
B2.11B29.4B13.A$270.A5.10B29.4B$269.2A5.2B2A6B28.4B$275.3B2A6B27.4B$
276.10B26.4B$276.8B.B2A.A21.4B$275.7B3.B2AB3A18.4B$275.6B6.B4.A16.4B$
276.6B4.2A.3A16.4B$276.5B6.A.A17.4B$275.6B6.A.A16.4B$275.6B7.A16.4B$
274.7B23.4B$274.2B3D2B8.A13.4B$274.4BD3B5.3A12.4B$274.3B3D2B4.A14.4B$
275.8B3.2A12.4B$275.3B2A2B2.4B11.4B91.D$273.5B2A2B.3B12.4B90.3D$273.
13B11.4B90.D$272.16B8.4B91.2D$271.17B7.4B$272.16B6.4B$273.15B5.4B$
267.2A5.13B5.4B$268.A6.10B6.4B$268.A.AB3.10B5.4B$269.2AB.15B.4B88.2D$
271.21B88.D.D5.2D$272.19B89.D7.2D$264.2A5.20B88.2D$265.A4.22B$265.A.A
B.23B100.D$266.2AB.22B97.2D.D.D$268.23B97.D.D.D.D$268.22B95.D2.D.D.D.
D.2D$269.18B98.4D.2D2.D2.D$269.14B.5B100.D4.2D$270.12B5.2A98.D.D$272.
10B5.A99.2D$272.7B.B7.3A$272.8B10.A$273.3B.4B$278.4B$279.4B$280.4B$
281.4B$282.4B$283.4B$284.4B$285.4B83.2E$286.4B82.2E$287.4B$288.4B$
289.4B$290.4B$291.4B$292.4B$293.4B$294.4B$295.4B$296.4B$297.4B$298.4B
$299.4B$300.4B$301.4B$302.4B$303.4B$304.4B$305.4B$306.4B$307.4B$308.
4B$309.4B$310.4B$311.4B$312.4B$313.4B$314.4B21.4B$315.4B19.4B$316.4B
10.A6.4B$317.4B7.3A5.4B$318.4B5.A7.4B$319.4B4.2A5.4B$320.9B4.4B$321.
6B5.4B$321.8B2.4B$319.15B$319.14B$319.13B$317.2AB.10B$316.A.AB3.B2A3B
$316.A6.B2A3B$315.2A6.4B$324.3B.2D$325.2B.DA$324.B2ABA.A$323.BABABA.A
$321.A2.A.A.A.A.2A$321.4A.2A2.A2.A$325.A4.2A$323.A.A$323.2A!
#C [[ THUMBNAIL THUMBSIZE 2 ZOOM 1.3 STOP 2048 ]]

... So who wants to try compiling it? Have to see if it will go plaid when it reaches Ludicrous Speed after the first cycle.

(It's much more likely to be able to do that than the Orthogonoid, with a reasonable amount of RAM, just because the recipe will be so much shorter.)
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby dvgrn » June 29th, 2017, 1:58 pm

dvgrn wrote:Scorbie's new Demonoid might end up looking something like this...
...
So who wants to try compiling it?

Hey, there's a nice not-much-used-yet mechanism, previously seen mostly in chris_c's tricky construction recipes for the 0hd Demonoid, that can be applied here for cleanup.

The parent constructor/reflector's permanent Snark is quite close to the child's construction arm, so it can be removed very cheaply by 180-degree gliders directly from the elbow, once the Snark has been removed:

x = 127, y = 141, rule = LifeHistory
109.2A$109.A.A$111.A4.2A$107.4A.2A2.A2.A$107.A2.A.A.A.A.2A$109.BABABA
.A$110.B2ABA.A$111.2B.BA$110.3B$101.2A6.4B$8.2E92.A6.B2A3B$8.2E92.A.A
B3.B2A3B$103.2AB.10B$105.13B$105.14B$105.15B$107.8B2.4B$107.6B5.4B$
18.4B84.9B4.4B$19.4B82.4B4.2A5.4B$20.4B80.4B5.A7.4B$21.4B78.4B7.3A5.
4B$22.4B76.4B10.A6.4B$23.4B74.4B19.3B$24.4B72.4B21.2B$25.4B70.4B23.B$
5.A20.4B68.4B$3.A.A21.4B66.4B$4.2A22.4B64.4B$29.4B62.4B$30.4B60.4B$
31.4B58.4B$32.4B56.4B$33.4B54.4B$34.4B52.4B$35.4B50.4B$36.4B48.4B$37.
4B46.4B$38.4B44.4B$39.4B42.4B$40.4B40.4B$18.A22.4B38.4B$16.A.A23.4B
36.4B$17.2A24.4B34.4B$44.4B32.4B$45.4B30.4B$46.4B28.4B$47.4B21.B4.4B
16.A11.2A$48.4B19.3B2.4B16.A.A9.B2AB$49.4B10.2A5.9B17.A.A9.3B$33.A16.
4B10.A4.9B12.2A2.3A.2A9.B.B$34.A16.4B9.A.AB.8B13.A2.A4.B8.5B$32.3A17.
4B9.2AB.9B3.4B2.BA.A3.3AB2A6.6B$53.4B10.11B2.5B2.B2A6.A.2A4.8B$54.4B
9.11B2.8B10.13B$55.4B8.21B12.13B$56.4B8.19B12.15B$57.4B6.19B2.B10.15B
$58.4B3.26B5.B.17B$59.4B.51B$60.4B.21B2ABD11B2A13B$48.2A11.25B2AB3D9B
2A14B$48.A.A11.27BDBD20B3.B2A$50.A4.2A6.28BD19B4.A2.A$46.4A.2A2.A2.A
3.33B2.2B2.B3.6B5.2A.A$46.A2.A.A.A.A.2A3.16B2.7B2.4B13.6B7.A$49.A.A.A
.A6.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A$50.2A.A.A7.14B5.3B19.2A4.4B$54.A11.9B.3B4.B21.A
5.4B$66.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B$40.2A25.4B6.A24.A10.4B$41.A7.2A18.4B5.3A33.B
3D$41.A.A5.2A20.2A7.A34.D3B$42.2A27.A44.D3B$72.3A42.4B$74.A43.4B$119.
4B$120.4B$121.4B2$52.2A$52.A$53.3A$55.A25$36.A11.2A$35.A.A10.2A$2.2A
31.A.A$3.A25.2A2.3A.2A$3.A.A23.A2.A$4.2A21.A.A3.3A.2A$27.2A6.A.2A7$
25.2A13.2A$25.2A13.2A$55.2A$54.A2.A$55.2A.A$58.A$58.2A$43.2A$44.A$16.
2A23.3A$16.A24.A$17.3A$10.2A7.A$10.A$11.3A$13.A4$B!

Optimization problems
After that, the rest of the cleanup can be done with *WSSes fairly easily, except maybe for the far right edge of the circuit which might need a little customization.

I'd like to declare a new contest for the minimum number of slow *WSSes needed to shoot down the ten still lifes in the main body. Ties can maybe be broken by saying that the candidate with the rightmost *WSS that's farthest to the left wins, and similarly for the second-rightmost *WSS and so on.

If anyone wants to go the simeks GoL-destroy route, the optimization problem there is to find the minimum number of bait objects added (in non-interfering locations, of course) to allow for complete destruction to be triggered by just one southbound *WSS. Again, in case of a tie in the number of still lifes, the leftmost *WSS wins -- just stay away from that right edge.

If the beehive-with-tail and block farthest to the right turn out to be a huge problem, they can be left out of the solution, to be shot down first with slow gliders from the NW. Those would basically just be super-wide 180-degree gliders; it's easy (just expensive) to build recipes for any offset that's needed.

Contests #3 and #4 might be the minimum number of *WSSes needed when just one or two additional bait objects are added, respectively. The winner among all these contests would be the single-channel recipe that has the smallest bounding box and/or population -- hopefully both! For a fair comparison, the measured recipe has to include the construction as well as the destruction.

The only other problem that might need some work --
As in the current Orthogonoid, the construction-arm Snark is part of the initial build, but it's supposed to be done last, with 0-degree gliders from the parent's construction-arm Snark. It's not entirely clear that there's enough room for this without going to the next higher spacing, but we can worry about that later.

Looking for aspiring single-channel construction engineers -- no experience required
If anyone would be interested in working on putting this spaceship together but doesn't know quite where to start, I can help as much as needed with Golly and slmake setup. This would be a fairly easy blueprint to complete (as these things go).
dvgrn
Moderator
 
Posts: 3936
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Demonoid (diagonal Geminoid) completed!

Postby Scorbie » June 30th, 2017, 12:52 pm

Wow, I'm astonished how short it takes to run slmake! Here's my first run of the program (in linux, so no sweat.)
x = 35109, y = 35075, rule = B3/S23
2o$2o127$133b2o$132b2o$134bo126$263b2o$262b2o$264bo126$389b2o$388b2o$
390bo126$512b2o$511b2o$513bo126$649b2o$648b2o$650bo126$762b2o$761b2o$
763bo126$887b2o$886b2o$888bo126$1011b3o$1011bo$1012bo126$1142b3o$1142b
o$1143bo126$1272b3o$1272bo$1273bo126$1399b3o$1399bo$1400bo126$1530b3o$
1530bo$1531bo126$1666b3o$1666bo$1667bo126$1798b2o$1797b2o$1799bo126$
1923b2o$1922b2o$1924bo126$2042b3o$2042bo$2043bo126$2174b2o$2173b2o$
2175bo126$2302b2o$2301b2o$2303bo126$2433b3o$2433bo$2434bo126$2547b2o$
2546b2o$2548bo126$2683b3o$2683bo$2684bo126$2814b3o$2814bo$2815bo126$
2935b3o$2935bo$2936bo126$3064b3o$3064bo$3065bo126$3189b3o$3189bo$3190b
o126$3309b3o$3309bo$3310bo126$3435b2o$3434b2o$3436bo126$3562b2o$3561b
2o$3563bo126$3704b2o$3703b2o$3705bo126$3830b2o$3829b2o$3831bo126$3952b
3o$3952bo$3953bo126$4063b2o$4062b2o$4064bo126$4188b2o$4187b2o$4189bo
126$4308b3o$4308bo$4309bo126$4419b3o$4419bo$4420bo126$4549b3o$4549bo$
4550bo126$4661b3o$4661bo$4662bo126$4791b3o$4791bo$4792bo126$4919b3o$
4919bo$4920bo126$5052b2o$5051b2o$5053bo126$5182b3o$5182bo$5183bo126$
5304b3o$5304bo$5305bo126$5430b3o$5430bo$5431bo126$5568b3o$5568bo$5569b
o126$5695b3o$5695bo$5696bo126$5837b3o$5837bo$5838bo126$5956b3o$5956bo$
5957bo126$6079b2o$6078b2o$6080bo126$6202b2o$6201b2o$6203bo126$6343b2o$
6342b2o$6344bo126$6479b3o$6479bo$6480bo126$6602b3o$6602bo$6603bo126$
6742b3o$6742bo$6743bo126$6840b2o$6839b2o$6841bo126$6965b2o$6964b2o$
6966bo126$7098b2o$7097b2o$7099bo126$7223b2o$7222b2o$7224bo126$7343b3o$
7343bo$7344bo126$7476b3o$7476bo$7477bo126$7599b3o$7599bo$7600bo126$
7730b3o$7730bo$7731bo126$7877b3o$7877bo$7878bo126$7994b3o$7994bo$7995b
o126$8121b2o$8120b2o$8122bo126$8244b2o$8243b2o$8245bo126$8358b2o$8357b
2o$8359bo126$8495b2o$8494b2o$8496bo126$8654b3o$8654bo$8655bo126$8775b
3o$8775bo$8776bo126$8913b2o$8912b2o$8914bo126$9038b2o$9037b2o$9039bo
126$9166b2o$9165b2o$9167bo126$9293b3o$9293bo$9294bo126$9435b2o$9434b2o
$9436bo126$9546b3o$9546bo$9547bo126$9695b2o$9694b2o$9696bo126$9819b2o$
9818b2o$9820bo126$9933b3o$9933bo$9934bo126$10059b3o$10059bo$10060bo
126$10173b2o$10172b2o$10174bo126$10309b2o$10308b2o$10310bo126$10439b2o
$10438b2o$10440bo126$10550b2o$10549b2o$10551bo126$10690b3o$10690bo$
10691bo126$10819b2o$10818b2o$10820bo126$10950b2o$10949b2o$10951bo126$
11070b2o$11069b2o$11071bo126$11222b2o$11221b2o$11223bo126$11341b3o$
11341bo$11342bo126$11472b2o$11471b2o$11473bo126$11582b2o$11581b2o$
11583bo126$11713b2o$11712b2o$11714bo126$11849b2o$11848b2o$11850bo126$
11981b2o$11980b2o$11982bo126$12118b3o$12118bo$12119bo126$12238b3o$
12238bo$12239bo126$12371b3o$12371bo$12372bo126$12488b2o$12487b2o$
12489bo126$12614b3o$12614bo$12615bo126$12710b3o$12710bo$12711bo126$
12831b3o$12831bo$12832bo126$12971b3o$12971bo$12972bo126$13107b2o$
13106b2o$13108bo126$13228b3o$13228bo$13229bo126$13359b2o$13358b2o$
13360bo126$13472b2o$13471b2o$13473bo126$13609b3o$13609bo$13610bo126$
13721b3o$13721bo$13722bo126$13849b3o$13849bo$13850bo126$13976b3o$
13976bo$13977bo126$14104b2o$14103b2o$14105bo126$14245b2o$14244b2o$
14246bo126$14376b3o$14376bo$14377bo126$14515b2o$14514b2o$14516bo126$
14643b2o$14642b2o$14644bo126$14763b2o$14762b2o$14764bo126$14910b2o$
14909b2o$14911bo126$15041b2o$15040b2o$15042bo126$15164b2o$15163b2o$
15165bo126$15291b3o$15291bo$15292bo126$15413b2o$15412b2o$15414bo126$
15562b3o$15562bo$15563bo126$15696b3o$15696bo$15697bo126$15805b3o$
15805bo$15806bo126$15938b3o$15938bo$15939bo126$16047b3o$16047bo$16048b
o126$16175b3o$16175bo$16176bo126$16313b3o$16313bo$16314bo126$16468b3o$
16468bo$16469bo126$16597b3o$16597bo$16598bo126$16714b2o$16713b2o$
16715bo126$16832b3o$16832bo$16833bo126$16959b3o$16959bo$16960bo126$
17071b3o$17071bo$17072bo126$17209b3o$17209bo$17210bo126$17327b3o$
17327bo$17328bo126$17465b3o$17465bo$17466bo126$17583b3o$17583bo$17584b
o126$17710b3o$17710bo$17711bo126$17883b2o$17882b2o$17884bo126$18054b2o
$18053b2o$18055bo126$18189b3o$18189bo$18190bo126$18309b2o$18308b2o$
18310bo126$18434b2o$18433b2o$18435bo126$18554b2o$18553b2o$18555bo126$
18692b2o$18691b2o$18693bo126$18820b3o$18820bo$18821bo126$18943b2o$
18942b2o$18944bo126$19067b3o$19067bo$19068bo126$19163b3o$19163bo$
19164bo126$19294b3o$19294bo$19295bo126$19430b3o$19430bo$19431bo126$
19549b3o$19549bo$19550bo126$19684b3o$19684bo$19685bo126$19819b3o$
19819bo$19820bo126$19950b2o$19949b2o$19951bo126$20072b2o$20071b2o$
20073bo126$20182b2o$20181b2o$20183bo126$20313b3o$20313bo$20314bo126$
20495b3o$20495bo$20496bo126$20633b3o$20633bo$20634bo126$20752b3o$
20752bo$20753bo126$20877b3o$20877bo$20878bo126$20999b2o$20998b2o$
21000bo126$21146b2o$21145b2o$21147bo126$21248b2o$21247b2o$21249bo126$
21373b2o$21372b2o$21374bo126$21500b2o$21499b2o$21501bo126$21626b3o$
21626bo$21627bo126$21745b3o$21745bo$21746bo126$21871b3o$21871bo$21872b
o126$22005b2o$22004b2o$22006bo126$22140b2o$22139b2o$22141bo126$22261b
2o$22260b2o$22262bo126$22381b2o$22380b2o$22382bo126$22518b3o$22518bo$
22519bo126$22641b2o$22640b2o$22642bo126$22782b2o$22781b2o$22783bo126$
22898b3o$22898bo$22899bo126$23032b2o$23031b2o$23033bo126$23132b3o$
23132bo$23133bo126$23269b3o$23269bo$23270bo126$23394b3o$23394bo$23395b
o126$23522b3o$23522bo$23523bo126$23640b2o$23639b2o$23641bo126$23801b3o
$23801bo$23802bo126$23924b3o$23924bo$23925bo126$24058b3o$24058bo$
24059bo126$24185b3o$24185bo$24186bo126$24317b2o$24316b2o$24318bo126$
24445b3o$24445bo$24446bo126$24570b3o$24570bo$24571bo126$24703b3o$
24703bo$24704bo126$24834b3o$24834bo$24835bo126$24952b2o$24951b2o$
24953bo126$25081b2o$25080b2o$25082bo126$25192b3o$25192bo$25193bo126$
25316b3o$25316bo$25317bo126$25438b3o$25438bo$25439bo126$25572b2o$
25571b2o$25573bo126$25710b3o$25710bo$25711bo126$25832b2o$25831b2o$
25833bo126$26009b2o$26008b2o$26010bo126$26141b2o$26140b2o$26142bo126$
26272b2o$26271b2o$26273bo126$26399b3o$26399bo$26400bo126$26532b3o$
26532bo$26533bo126$26664b2o$26663b2o$26665bo126$26770b2o$26769b2o$
26771bo126$26900b2o$26899b2o$26901bo126$27030b3o$27030bo$27031bo126$
27156b3o$27156bo$27157bo126$27280b3o$27280bo$27281bo126$27403b2o$
27402b2o$27404bo126$27540b3o$27540bo$27541bo126$27664b3o$27664bo$
27665bo126$27797b3o$27797bo$27798bo126$27926b2o$27925b2o$27927bo126$
28047b2o$28046b2o$28048bo126$28182b2o$28181b2o$28183bo126$28318b2o$
28317b2o$28319bo126$28432b3o$28432bo$28433bo126$28556b3o$28556bo$
28557bo126$28681b2o$28680b2o$28682bo126$28800b3o$28800bo$28801bo126$
28929b2o$28928b2o$28930bo126$29057b2o$29056b2o$29058bo126$29188b2o$
29187b2o$29189bo126$29328b2o$29327b2o$29329bo126$29458b3o$29458bo$
29459bo126$29570b2o$29569b2o$29571bo126$29700b2o$29699b2o$29701bo126$
29834b2o$29833b2o$29835bo126$29958b2o$29957b2o$29959bo126$30094b2o$
30093b2o$30095bo126$30221b2o$30220b2o$30222bo126$30351b2o$30350b2o$
30352bo126$30478b3o$30478bo$30479bo126$30595b2o$30594b2o$30596bo126$
30731b3o$30731bo$30732bo126$30846b3o$30846bo$30847bo126$30976b3o$
30976bo$30977bo126$31098b3o$31098bo$31099bo126$31232b2o$31231b2o$
31233bo126$31357b3o$31357bo$31358bo126$31468b2o$31467b2o$31469bo126$
31597b3o$31597bo$31598bo126$31725b3o$31725bo$31726bo126$31817b2o$
31816b2o$31818bo126$31944b2o$31943b2o$31945bo126$32079b3o$32079bo$
32080bo126$32214b2o$32213b2o$32215bo126$32338b3o$32338bo$32339bo126$
32466b2o$32465b2o$32467bo126$32582b3o$32582bo$32583bo126$32701b2o$
32700b2o$32702bo126$32833b2o$32832b2o$32834bo126$32969b2o$32968b2o$
32970bo126$33084b3o$33084bo$33085bo126$33217b2o$33216b2o$33218bo126$
33356b2o$33355b2o$33357bo126$33471b3o$33471bo$33472bo126$33589b3o$
33589bo$33590bo126$33722b2o$33721b2o$33723bo126$33881b3o$33881bo$
33882bo126$34016b3o$34016bo$34017bo126$34211b3o$34211bo$34212bo126$
34332b3o$34332bo$34333bo126$34477b3o$34477bo$34478bo126$34606b3o$
34606bo$34607bo126$34728b3o$34728bo$34729bo126$34847b2o$34846b2o$
34848bo126$34978b3o$34978bo$34979bo126$35106b3o$35106bo$35107bo!

Edit: oops, wrong glider direction, but this took less than 5 mins on my old laptop!
Edit2: fixed the pattern, and it takes about 40 seconds, which is about the time taken to watch it run in golly.
Best wishes to you, Scorbie
User avatar
Scorbie
 
Posts: 1322
Joined: December 7th, 2013, 1:05 am

PreviousNext

Return to Patterns

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests