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## Slow salvo seeds

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.

### Slow salvo seeds

Now that there is Catagolue out there, I think it makes sense to open a special thread for slow salvo seeds for not-so-common still lifes and oscillators that might be useful for self-constructing circuitry. I think this topic is specific enough in order not to pile it all up into "Soup search results" thread.

`x = 9, y = 14, rule = B3/S23o\$3o\$bo2\$7b2o\$7b2o7\$b2o\$b2o!`

`x = 12, y = 10, rule = B3/S239b2o\$9bobo\$10bo3\$b2o\$o2bo\$b2o6bobo\$9bobo\$9b3o!`

`x = 14, y = 16, rule = B3/S233b2o5bo\$2bo2bo3bobo\$3b2o3bo2bo\$9b2o6\$12b2o\$12b2o3\$b2o\$obo\$2bo!`

`x = 18, y = 16, rule = B3/S239bo5b2o\$8bobo3bo2bo\$8bo2bo3b2o\$9b2o6\$12b2o\$12b2o3\$b2o\$obo\$2bo!`

`x = 15, y = 21, rule = B3/S238bo\$7bobo\$7bobo\$8bo3\$8b2o\$8bobo\$9bo4\$13bo\$12bobo\$12bobo\$13bo3\$b2o\$obo\$2bo!`

`x = 15, y = 20, rule = B3/S236b2o5bo\$5bo2bo3bobo\$6b2o3bo2bo\$12b2o3\$13bo\$12bobo\$12bobo\$13bo8\$b2o\$obo\$2bo!`

`x = 21, y = 20, rule = B3/S2312bo5b2o\$11bobo3bo2bo\$11bo2bo3b2o\$12b2o3\$13bo\$12bobo\$12bobo\$13bo8\$b2o\$obo\$2bo!`

`x = 16, y = 17, rule = B3/S2313b2o\$12bo2bo\$13b2o5\$11b2o\$10bo2bo\$b2o7bobo\$obo8bo\$2bo2\$8bo\$7bobo\$7bobo\$8bo!`

`x = 22, y = 15, rule = B3/S2313bo5b2o\$12bobo3bo2bo\$12bo2bo3b2o\$13b2o3\$13b2o\$12bo2bo\$13b2o4\$b2o\$obo\$2bo!`

`x = 21, y = 10, rule = B3/S2313b2o\$12bobo\$13bo3\$12b2o\$11bo2bo3b2o\$b2o8bobo3bo2bo\$obo9bo5b2o\$2bo!`

`x = 21, y = 10, rule = B3/S2313b2o\$12bobo\$13bo3\$12b2o4b2o\$11bobo3bo2bo\$b2o9bo5b2o\$obo\$2bo!`

and so on...

House siamese shillelagh
`x = 21, y = 31, rule = B3/S2320bo\$20bo\$15bo4bo\$15b3o\$16bo\$8b2o\$8b2o7\$8b2o\$7bo2bo\$8b2o\$o\$o\$o8\$8b3o2\$6bo\$6bo\$6bo!`

`x = 21, y = 26, rule = B3/S232bo\$b2o\$2o\$o7\$11b3o\$4b2o\$3bo2bo10b2o\$4b2o10bo2bo\$16bobo\$17bo4\$19b2o\$19b2o3\$6bo\$6bo\$6bo!`

`x = 15, y = 17, rule = B3/S237bob2o\$7b3o\$8bo5\$bo\$obo10b2o\$obo10b2o\$bo2\$8bo\$8bo\$8bo2\$4b3o!`

What's the minimum number of gliders to synthesise Herschel transmitter?
Ivan Fomichev

codeholic
Moderator

Posts: 1142
Joined: September 13th, 2011, 8:23 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

codeholic wrote:What's the minimum number of gliders to synthesise Herschel transmitter?

Via traditional method or slow salvo?

Eater 2 variant:
`x = 20, y = 25, rule = B3/S237bo\$6bobo\$6bobo\$7bo4\$15bo\$15bo\$15bo2\$11b3o8\$18bo\$17bobo\$b2o10b2o2b2o\$o2bo10b2o\$obo10bo\$bo!`

Currently looking through the eater bridge eater used in F116 and a few other conduits.

EDIT: Assorted results of varying quality:
`x = 3695, y = 351, rule = B3/S2379\$3623b2o\$3317b2o304b2o\$3317b2o2\$3625bo\$3320b2o303bo2bo\$3320b2o303b3o4\$3333b2o285b2o\$3332bo2bo283bo2bo\$3333b2o285b2o10b2o\$3340bo291b2o\$3339bobo\$3320b2o17b2o\$3320b2o2\$3295bo10bo13bo\$3294bo12bo12b2o\$3294bo12bo11bobo\$3294bo12bo\$3293bo14bo\$3293bo14bo\$3293bo6b2o6bo\$3293bo6b2o6bo\$3293bo14bo\$3293bo14bo\$3294bo12bo\$3294bo12bo\$3294bo12bo\$3295bo10bo30b3o10\$3509b2o\$3490b3o16b2o2\$3488bo\$3488bo15b2o\$3488bo15b2o2\$3495bo13b2o\$3489b2o2b2o8bo4bo2bo\$3487b2obo11bobo4b2o\$3487b2o13bobo\$3417b3o68bobo12bo\$3417bobo68bobobo3b2o\$3416bo3bo57bo7bob3obo2bobo\$3416bo3bo57bo3b3ob2o7bobo22bo104bo\$3416bo3bo57bo3b2o12bo23bo103bobo\$3413b2o4bo100bo103bobo\$3422bo202bo\$3411bo3bo5bobo\$3415bo5bo2bo88bo\$3412b2o2bo4bo2bo87bobo\$3403b2o17b3o80bo5bo3bo\$3403bobo15bo2bo68bo10b3o4bo2bo120b2o\$3404bo4b2o10bob2o67bobo8bo3bo2b2ob2obo118b2o\$3409bobo11bo68bo2bo6b3o3bo2bobo2bo\$3398b2o5bo3bobo81b2o11b3o3bo3bo\$3397bo2bo3bobo3b2o95bo115b2o\$3397bo2bo3bobo204b2o9bo2bo\$3093b2o303bobo3bo206b2o10b2o\$3092bobo303bo2bo2b2o8b2o\$3093bo305bobo2b2obo5bo2b2o63b3o130b2o7b2o\$3215bo184b2o2b3o6bo4bo188b2o6bobo4bo2bo\$3214bobo76bobo104bo2b3o7bo4bo60bo5bo120bo2bo3bobo7b2o\$2941bo219bo54b2o76b2o103bo3b3o7bo7b2o56bo5bo121b2o4b2o\$2942b2o217bo50bo3b2o76bo104b2o4bo6b2o6bo2bo55bo5bo18bo\$2941b2o2b2o126b2o7b3o76bo49bo5bo180b2o12b2ob2o2b2ob2o79b3o\$2945bobo124bo2bo5bo2bo80b2o43bo83b2o117bobo5bo59b3o19bo3b3o\$2946bo124bobo7b3o81b2o44bo82b2o34bo83bo89bo3bo\$3071bo3bo6bo129b2obo113bobo173b3o\$2264bo448b2o356bo2b2o127b2o10bo113b2o85b3o87bo\$2260bo3bo2bo156bo288b2o357bo2bo64bobo60b2o110b2o\$2263bo2bobo155bo281b2o433b2o172b2o\$2261b2o3bo2bo154bo281b2o380b2o51bo5bo\$2267b2o818bobo57b2o495b2o\$2426b3o659bo57b2o328bo10b2o24b2o128b2o\$3476bo10b2o24b2o130bo\$2266b2o156bo1051bo\$2266b2o156bo640b3o6b2o229b2o\$2424bo648bo2bo227bo2bo\$3074bobo228b2o20b2o\$2712bo362bo251b2o\$2712bo\$2712bo223b2o\$2935bo2bo\$2417b2o279b2o236b2o\$2416bo2bo277bobo174bo452b3o\$2416bobo278b2o175bo\$2417bo397bo4b2o51b3o74b2o\$2815b7o45b2o81b2o\$2415bo4bo4bo390b2obo2bo43bo2bo3bo\$2415b2o2bo6bo265bo19bo103b6o45b2o4b2o3b2o\$2415b3obo6bo264b3o17bobo94b3o3bo3b2o58b2o\$2413b2obo2bo6bo263bo2b2o5b3o8bobo94b4ob3o\$2415bo4bo4bo263b2o2b2o4bo12bo98bobo4bo\$2688bo2bob3o3bo3bo110bobo2bob2o2b2o\$2613b3o72b5obo4bo2b2o104b3o6bob3o3b2o\$2689b4o6bo108bo8bo3bo45b2o\$2694bo5bo2bo103b2o3b2o3bo2bo46b2o71b2o\$2400b2o290b2obo7b2o100b2o3b6o2b3o119bobo\$2400b2o13b3o118b3o12b2o139b3ob2o2bo2bo102b5ob2o2bo124b2o\$2550bo2bo60bo4b2o73bob2o5b2o101bo3b2o3b2o\$2551b2o60bo4b2o74bob3o4b2o105bob3o\$2416b3o194b3o3bo77b2o5b2o105b2o2b2o\$2416bo2bo116bo12bo149bo116bo\$2418b2o112b2ob3o11bo147b3o112bob2o\$2155bo376bob4o11bo131b3o128b2o6b3o\$2155bo114b3o259bo2bo79b2o203bo2bo\$2155bo15bo98bobo260b2o2bo7b3o3b3o267b3o\$1434b2o734bobo96bo2bo261bob2o72b3obo\$1433bo2bo720b3o10bobo95b4obo259b2obo12bo60b2obo\$1434b2o735bo97bo5bo257bo7bo7bo59b2ob2o3bo99b2o\$1424b3o618b3o221bo4bo258bo6bobo6bo58b2o2bo4bo82b2o14bo2bo\$2055bo213b2o145bo123bobo66b2o3bobo58bo24b2o14bo2bo\$2054bobo208bo5bo144bo124b2o67b5obo57bobo32bo7b2o\$1422b2o2bobo625bo2bo88b2o117bo150bo193b2o62bobo31b3o\$1420b2o2b3obo2bo623b2o89b2o107bo9bobo5bo3bo397bo31bo\$1422bo3bobo408b3o206b2o119b2o85bob4o16bobo127b3o3b3o3b3o287b2o\$1425b2o5b2o612b2o106bo11bo88bobo4b2o5b2o5bobo391b2o7b2o28bo\$1425b2o4b2o416b2o301b3o11bobo80b3o4bo4b4o5bo6bo138bo123bo128bo2bo5bo2bo29bo\$1417b2o4b2ob2o421b2o294b2o4bo2bo10b2ob2o78bo2bo5bo3b2obo5bo2bo142bo123bo129b2o7b2o30b3o\$1416bobo4b3ob2o3bo280b2o12b3o415b2o4b2o15bo78bo23b3o142bo123bo171b2o\$1416bo9b2o4b2o278bobo319b2o132bo79bo2bo177b2o244bo\$1381b2o34b3obo2bob2o4b2o14b3o262bo11bo5bo302b2o121b2o8b2obo78b3o6b3o168b2o111b3o129bobo32b2o\$1381b2o10bo24bo2bo4bo298bo5bo425b2o11bo85b2o280b2o134bobo32b2o\$1392bobo18b2o7b3o300bo5bo429bo5bob2o83b3o10b2o268bo2bo134bo7b3o\$1393b2o18b2o422bo13b2o202b2o103bobo5b2o83b3obo9b2o269b2o\$1709b2o16b3o106bobo11bo2bo180b2o12b2o111bo6bo83b2o2bo\$1371b2o51b2o128bo98bo55b2o125b2o13b3o174b2o4b2o3bo7bo2bo3b2o195bobob2o\$935b2o434b2o49bo3bo127bo97bobo373bobo7b3o7b2o4bobo104bo89b3ob2o\$934bo2bo12b2o471bobo126b3o81bo15bobo374b2o7bo10bo4bobo94bob3o4b3o90bo2bo3b3o\$934bobo13b2o423b2o24b2o21bo126b2o8b2o72bobo15bo185b2o309b3ob2o2b2o2bo90bob2o2bo2bo4b2o\$935bo291b2o145bo2bo22bo2bo10bo135b2o8bo2bo70b2obo80bo119bo2bo213b2o9b2o81bo3b2o3bo94b2obo5bo3bobo\$957b2o268b2o146b2o24b2o10bobo135b2o7bobo63bo8bobo10b2o7b2o58b3o119b2o211b5o9b2o80b2ob2o99b2o7bo7b3o\$956bo2bo403bo50b2o21b2o122bo64bo9bo10bo2bo5bo2bo57bo33bo235b3o61b3o95b3o2b3o95bobo3bo10b3o\$957bobo159b3o240b2o3b3o67b2o187bo21b2o7b2o65bo26bo95b2o3b2o135bo60bob3o99bobo13bo82b2o4b2obobo6b2o\$918b3o37bo402bo5bo2bo195b2o155bobo25bo95b2o5b2o69b3o59b2o60b3o2b2o87bo9bo2b2o12bo83bo7bob2o5bo\$1223bo136b3o3bob2o195bo87bo69bo2bo125bob2o131bo56b2o3bobo3b2o85bobo7b2ob4o11bo94bo4bo\$1222bobo135bo2bob4o80b2o114bo71b2o13bobo69b2o21b3o3b3o167bo5bo114b2o3b3o2b2o85bo2bo9bo2b2o107bo\$1221bobo135bo2b2ob2o4bo76bo2bo113bo70b2o14bobo197b5o66bo5bo4bo114bobo90b2o8b3o2bo\$1221b2o137bob2obo5bo77b2o11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I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)

Extrementhusiast

Posts: 1794
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

I had a little go at this kind of thing in the very early days of Catagolue.

I posted a ten glider recipe for a dead spark coil from a traffic light here. It is based on the very common Interchange + Beehive predecessor.

`x = 918, y = 891, rule = B3/S23913bo\$913bo\$913bo2\$909b3o3b3o2\$913bo\$913bo\$913bo29\$885bo\$885b2o\$884bobo79\$790b3o\$792bo\$791bo98\$692b3o\$694bo\$693bo85\$613bo\$613b2o\$612bobo99\$518b3o\$520bo\$519bo98\$421b3o\$423bo\$422bo80\$301b2o\$300bobo\$302bo98\$196b2o\$195bobo\$197bo98\$102b2o\$101bobo\$103bo98\$b2o\$obo\$2bo!`

Here I posted a 6 SL seed for the eater on eater. It comes from a reaction that is about 80% of the way along Extrementhusiast's list.

`x = 23, y = 18, rule = B3/S2311b2o\$11b2o5\$2o\$2o4bo4b2o\$5bobo2bo2bo\$5b2o4b2o\$21b2o\$21b2o\$8b2o\$8bobo\$9bo\$b3o\$3bo\$2bo!`

Here is some stuff that I worked on but don't appear to have posted before...

Slow hat in both orientations from 3 "SL's" plus a 3 glider recipe from 2 "SL's":

`x = 222, y = 71, rule = B3/S23221bo\$221bo\$221bo7\$217bo\$217bo\$217bo\$12bo85bo\$12bo85bo114b3o3b3o\$12bo85bo\$217bo\$217bo\$217bo6\$10b2o87b2o\$9bo2bo85bo2bo\$10b2o87b2o\$4b2o99b2o\$4bobo97bobo\$5bo99bo\$194b3o\$196bo\$195bo3\$3o98b3o\$2bo100bo\$bo100bo12\$180bo\$180b2o\$179bobo18\$159bo\$159b2o\$158bobo!`

Idea for a slow twit that should lead to a working recipe in two of the four orientations:

`x = 17, y = 15, rule = B3/S2311b2o\$10bo2bo\$11b2o6\$b2o\$o2bo\$o2bo\$b2o\$14b3o\$14bo\$14b3o!`

Bookends from 4 "SL's". Extrementhusiast posted something very similar recently, but this variant has the advantage that the bookends appear at the back of the reaction envelope. I remember searching for a way to make bookends pointing in the other direction but I wasn't successful.

`x = 16, y = 13, rule = B3/S239bo\$8bobo\$9bo\$b2o\$obo\$2bo7b2o\$9bobo\$9b2o\$14b2o\$14b2o\$10bo\$10bo\$10bo!`
chris_c

Posts: 905
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

Extrementhusiast wrote:Via traditional method or slow salvo?

With slow salvo, of course. IMHO, "traditional" method becomes less and less important, besides maybe synthesis of spaceships and academic interest. For practical purposes it seems it's always cheaper to build a Spartan circuit directly (with either uni- or bidirectional salvos) rather than constructing an even smaller analogous non-Spartan circuit with freeze-dried salvos.
Extrementhusiast wrote:Eater 2 variant:

Amazing! It opens some options for using Kazyan's Holy Grail in self-constructing circuits! A good recipe for beehive-with-tail is wanted.
Ivan Fomichev

codeholic
Moderator

Posts: 1142
Joined: September 13th, 2011, 8:23 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

chris_c wrote:I posted a ten glider recipe for a dead spark coil from a traffic light here. It is based on the very common Interchange + Beehive predecessor.

Thanks for sharing it again! I missed it on my radar.

I think, time has come to have slow salvo construction section in the infobox on LifeWiki, analogous to the glider synthesis section.
Ivan Fomichev

codeholic
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### Re: Slow salvo seeds

codeholic wrote:
Extrementhusiast wrote:Via traditional method or slow salvo?

With slow salvo, of course. IMHO, "traditional" method becomes less and less important, besides maybe synthesis of spaceships and academic interest. For practical purposes it seems it's always cheaper to build a Spartan circuit directly (with either uni- or bidirectional salvos) rather than constructing an even smaller analogous non-Spartan circuit with freeze-dried salvos.
Extrementhusiast wrote:Eater 2 variant:

Amazing! It opens some options for using Kazyan's Holy Grail in self-constructing circuits! A good recipe for beehive-with-tail is wanted.

It moves the problem into the "technically possible" category, anyway. Until a slow-salvo eater2 shows up that's at the back edge of its reaction envelope, it doesn't seem to me that it will make any sense to build syringes with slow salvos.

The syringe variant that can use an eater2 variant (yellow, below) is already 13 still lifes -- including the eater2, but not counting the five objects in the eater2 seed, and also not counting cleanup for the half-dozen junk objects left over when the construction is complete.

Code: Select all
`x = 73, y = 54, rule = LifeHistory67.C\$67.C.C\$54.E12.2C\$13.2E39.3E\$13.E43.E\$14.E41.2E\$13.2E32.3B21.2E\$71.E\$45.B5.B16.2E.E\$45.B5.B15.E2.E\$45.B2.D2.B16.2E\$38.2E7.D.D3.2E\$10.2E26.2E7.CBC3.2E\$10.2E36.D3\$43.3B\$56.D\$56.D\$40.2E3.A2.A.2A4.D\$2E38.E.E2.4A.2A\$E41.E9.3D\$.3E11.2E25.2E3.2A.2A\$3.E11.2E23.2B6.A.A\$40.2B6.A.A10.2E\$49.A11.2E\$29.2E25.2B\$29.E26.2B\$30.3E\$32.E11.2B13.D\$19.2E23.2B12.D.D\$20.E21.2D8.2B4.2D\$17.3E21.D2.D6.B2.B\$17.E23.D.D8.2B\$42.D17\$34.2D\$35.2D\$34.D![[ HEIGHT 240 ]]`

(The other orientation of the eater2 also works, but seems much trickier to clean up even than this one, assuming that the trigger glider is coming from the same direction as the construction gliders.)

A couple of blocks would have to be constructed after the eater2. The hive-with-tail seems to be safely out of the way, along with one of the other eaters. The eater very close to the eater2 would be a bit tricky.

By contrast, a Silver reflector (or G-to-H) is only about 20 still lifes, and they're all well-separated and really easy to slow-construct incrementally in any orientation. Unfortunately I think we're stuck with Silver reflectors in self-constructing circuitry until someone comes up with a Spartan G-to-H.

EDIT:
codeholic wrote:I think, time has come to have slow salvo construction section in the infobox on LifeWiki, analogous to the glider synthesis section.

The only tricky part about listing slow-salvo construction on the LifeWiki is that the slow salvo with the smallest number of gliders probably won't be anywhere near the most useful slow salvo for a given object. Really we want to collect, usually, two or four completely different slow-salvo constructions -- one that can put each orientation of the object at the very back edge of its construction envelope.

It can also be worth collecting recipes that can drop the object at (or near) a lateral edge of the construction envelope -- for non-symmetric objects, it will probably be a different recipe at each edge again. Even that might not always be enough: there might be a really useful recipe where Object X shows up nowhere near the NW or NE edges of the construction envelope, but it's right on the N boundary. In general the metric for usefulness seems to be the number of cells from Object X to the nearest boundary of untouched space.

This all seems like a painful amount of detail to try to fit into a LifeWiki info box.

dvgrn
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### Re: Slow salvo seeds

The eater2 variation could also fit into the boojum reflector (where it place on the edge):

`x = 45, y = 32, rule = B3/S234bobo6b2o\$5b2o6b2o\$5bo7\$40bo\$39bobo\$39bobo\$20b2o16b2ob2o\$20b2o\$38b2ob4o\$2b2o34b2obo2bo\$bobo\$bo\$2o2\$34b2o\$34b2o4b2o\$11b2o27bobo\$10bobo29bo\$10bo31b2o\$9b2o23b2o\$34b2o3\$29bo\$28bobo\$29bo!`

Obviously not as good as syringe, but still only around 200 ticks for recovery. Might be useful for opposite collisions.

simsim314

Posts: 1702
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 1:27 pm

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

simsim314 wrote:The eater2 variation could also fit into the boojum reflector (where it place on the edge).

The boojum reflector is eight still lifes, plus the five initial objects for the eater2 seed, plus an unfortunate amount of cleanup, since the order of construction of the boojum reflector would be somewhat constrained by the junk left over from the eater2 construction. Again we're already at least three-quarters of the way to the cost of a Silver reflector. I hate to say this, since I always like to find uses for the old boojum reflector... but there just aren't very many good uses any more.

Looks like in either of the two possible orientations, the two blocks and eater at the far end of the boojum reflector would have to be constructed after the eater2, reaching around the corner behind the eater2 in either case. Reaching around corners is not impossible, but it does tend to be tricky, expensive, and just plain headache-inducing.

So a slow-salvo recipe for a boojum reflector will require a lot of customized cleverness, different for each of four different orientations. (If you have a recipe for one orientation, you also have its diagonal mirror-image, but not its 90- or 180-degree rotations.)

Silver reflectors are equally capable of doing 180-degree reflections, with a much better separation between input glider and output glider. And they're trivial to slow-construct in any orientation. That's really pretty hard to beat, I'm afraid.

Eater2s are also part of several other handy pieces of non-Spartan circuitry, like the H-to-2G transparent inserter used in a lot of the recent pseudo-period guns. The thing is, they're not absolutely indispensable anywhere. So until slow-salvo recipes are found that make eater2s just as easy to use as Spartan still lifes -- i.e., an edge-of-envelope recipe for four different orientations, at a minimum, and more recipes would be better -- then I just can't see the point of worrying about engineering eater2s into self-constructing circuitry.

Anyone is welcome to do all that work, of course, and come up with a complete construction recipe for something. But with current eater2 recipes, I'd be pretty surprised if there's any functional self-constructing circuit with eater2s in it, that can't be replaced by an equivalent Spartan circuit at the same total slow-salvo construction cost. Usually the Spartan circuit will probably cost a little less, and certainly not much more.

Or... if the circuit in question isn't self-constructing, is there any particular reason to construct it with slow salvos? Are there any designs that need constructible circuitry that are not self-constructing?

dvgrn
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### Re: Slow salvo seeds

dvgrn wrote:Or... if the circuit in question isn't self-constructing, is there any particular reason to construct it with slow salvos? Are there any designs that need constructible circuitry that is not self-constructing?

Over-linearly growing patterns is another obvious application, like Paul Tooke's SSS breeder.
Ivan Fomichev

codeholic
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### Re: Slow salvo seeds

dvgrn wrote: I just can't see the point of worrying about engineering eater2s into self-constructing circuitry.

The reason is simple. Silver defines not only the cost of SL, but also the separation between gliders. That means Silver reflector recovery time defines the distance between two gliders in the data stream to be ~400 ticks. Now if instead we use syringe we will have ~70 ticks of recovery, and in the same space/time will have X5 more gliders i.e. more information coded in denser glider stream.

Every slow salvo recipe will just work 5 times faster, and that means that Silver's cost should be count as SL count (or more precisely slow salvo glider synth count) X 400 ticks (glider/tick). And syringe cost should be count as #SLX70.

That means if we take replication time as the final goal, syringe with eater2 will replicate 5 times faster, i.e. allowing much "uglier" solutions and larger SL counts for any particular problem.

simsim314

Posts: 1702
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 1:27 pm

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

simsim314 wrote:Every slow salvo recipe will just work 5 times faster, and that means that Silver's cost should be count as SL count (or more precisely slow salvo glider synth count) X 400 ticks (glider/tick). And syringe cost should be count as #SLX70.

That means if we take replication time as the final goal, syringe with eater2 will replicate 5 times faster, i.e. allowing much "uglier" solutions and larger SL counts for any particular problem.

Yes, I keep going back and forth about this. If there was something like a million-dollar prize for the replicator that completed a replication cycle in the smallest number of ticks, then this all makes complete sense.

The winning design might be a fairly complicated multi-channel device with multiple construction arms running in parallel. That way you could build not just with slow 90-degree glider pairs, but with maybe six or eight gliders colliding at a time. Maybe there would be dedicated programmable shotguns that could build a syringe, let's say, or some complex piece of general-purpose logic circuitry, at very high speed.

-----------------------------------------

An idea that Paul Chapman came up with a decade ago was to build an entire replicator out of a single standardized part, as much as possible -- imagine some arrangement of different orientations of glider reflectors, so that you could get a left or right or 180-degree reflection, or various kinds of logic gates, just by sending gliders in at different locations. Then the construction instructions would be relatively tiny -- just a list of all the different locations to place these Big Logic Gate Things. Could probably store that list in a static tape instead of a circulating loop.

-- It seems like a nice idea until you start to try to implement it. One of the problems is that you still have to store the recipe for a Big Logic Gate Thing somewhere somehow, probably in a circulating glider loop.

Anyway, that design is aimed more at simplifying and compartmentalizing the construction data, rather than minimizing the total number of ticks needed to replicate. After I thought about it for a while, neither of those design goals seemed like the most useful one.

-----------------------------------------

The problem with a cost metric like (number-of-still-lifes x ticks-per-glider) is twofold:

1) If a recipe is five times as complex, then (as a rough rule of thumb) the pattern will actually run in Golly at about a fifth of the speed. Tighter-packed patterns tend to fill up memory with more different hashtiles, so if there are more gliders in the recipe loop, Golly will have to do more work. Just as a practical consideration with the simulation software that we have at the moment, the signal-packing gains are roughly balanced out by the slower simulation speed.

2) These theoretical tightly-packed recipes with five times as many gliders seem to be at least five times harder to design and troubleshoot, in practice, than the simple Spartan U.C. designs. We have the Gemini, the linear propagator, the spiral-growth pattern, and some progress toward a Demonoid spaceship and a quadratic-growth replicator. Nobody has actually managed to design any useful self-constructing circuitry containing eater2s or other similar large still lifes, just because it's a significantly harder problem.

For example, it's a lot of work to find the minimal recipe for eight different orientations of a boojum reflector... and even more work to find an actual use for a boojum reflector in self-constructing circuitry, especially since it doesn't even allow a factor-of-three improvement in compression over Silver reflectors. The final payoff for adding boojum-reflector construction capability might be a reduction in replication time of just 20%, or 10%, or 1% or no improvement at all.

A Spartan Snark, or a really nice slow-salvo or glider-pair construction of the current Snark, or even better a Spartan G-to-H, would change the cost calculation really significantly. Until then, it seems like it would take an order of magnitude more research time to put together a design that would be many times more complex (in terms of number of gliders in the recipe)... and it will only end up running at the same speed or slower in Golly anyway, never mind what the generation count says.

I may be overly biased by my own particular experience, of course! Of the three linear propagator patterns, the slowest version in terms of number of ticks to replicate is the one that runs fastest in Golly, by far.

dvgrn
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### Re: Slow salvo seeds

I think that a target function of running fast in golly is not super good idea, and here is why:

1. Instead of (or in parallel to) trying to fit our patterns into golly, we need to improve golly to work better with our patterns. For example some algorithm that knows how to represent gliders logically will be a game changer.

2. It's not "stable" target. As new programs come out and golly improves, we can get different run times. We should have target functions which are based in GOL properties itself - but I do agree that golly can give us clue of what function to chose, although I can't agree the function should be based on golly alone. Something like cell count, bounding box, replication time can all be considered as potential factors, that obviously limit any algorithm performance.

3. I can imagine very dense SL populated self replicating pattern with moderate bounding box, that could be fast in golly as SLs benefit most from HashLife. So if we chose some in between target function: total sum of number of changed cells from generation to the next for the whole replication loop (ans say ignoring p2s), we could optimize the calculation intensity while still keeping GOL oriented target function (the least cells change from generation i to i + 1 the better most of optimization algorithms will work).

4. A while back I've started the effort of creating logical editors. Maybe instead of designing all the big patterns by hand as we do today, we should think of developing something like "logical design studio", with many tools to simplify the design of large patterns. For very large patterns designing tools could be a simpler goal than the design of the patterns themselves. Although the effort is of different nature.

5. As a side note: X5 faster replication time with X2 complexity will work faster in golly in total as the intensity of calculation should also be multiplied by replication cycle. So assuming we make X2 more calculation in each generation because we replicate five times faster we still get improvement of X2.5. And I'm not sure that I'm convinced that using syringe will increase the complexity by factor of 2 over the complexity of Silver based designs.

The difference between this claim, and the experience with linear replicators, is that linear replicators were gaining factor of 2 at most with some complexity costs, while here we start from X5.

6. I do agree that boojum is not good enough here as its recovery is not fast enough. I also agree that it would be much better to have all 8 orientations and cleaner eater2 synths.

simsim314

Posts: 1702
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 1:27 pm

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

This is my attempt at making the syringe variant in all four orientations using the eater 2 seed. Compatible recipes for the eater 1 that is nearest to the eater 2 are shown on the second row for three out of the four orientations. The only thing I am unsure about is how to make the eater 1 in the fourth orientation and how to make the beehive-with-tails.

This was certainly headache-inducing to put together but I think the cost of the recipes is pretty decent.

`x = 2022, y = 1079, rule = LifeHistory874.D\$872.3D39.2D\$871.D43.D\$871.2D41.D\$856.2D56.2D\$857.D\$857.D.2D\$858.D2.D\$859.2D19.A481.D\$874.2D3.A.A7.2D471.3D\$874.2D3.A.A7.2D26.2D446.D\$880.A36.2D445.2D\$1377.D4.2A595.A\$1375.3D3.A2.A593.A.A23.D\$1374.D7.A.A577.3A12.A2.A21.3D\$425.D948.2D7.A594.2A21.D\$384.2D39.3D443.3A521.2D9.2D552.A5.A34.2D\$384.D43.D448.2D.D2.D3.2D506.D10.2D552.A5.A22.D\$385.D41.2D446.A.2D.4D2.D.D38.2D419.D11.2D31.D.D7.2A555.A5.A22.3D\$384.2D56.2D431.A10.D41.D417.3D11.2D25.2D2.3D.2D5.A2.A586.D\$442.D432.A.2D.2D3.2D25.2D11.3D417.D41.D2.D12.2A557.3A26.2D\$439.2D.D435.D.D31.2D11.D419.2D38.D.D3.3D.2D562.2D11.D\$438.D2.D424.2D10.D.D504.2D6.D.2D562.2D10.D.D\$419.A19.2D425.2D11.D1091.D.D31.2D11.D\$409.2D7.A.A3.2D472.2D493.3A574.2D.2D3.2D25.2D11.3D\$381.2D26.2D7.A.A3.2D473.D1067.3A9.D41.D\$381.2D36.A476.3D498.A572.2D.4D2.D.D38.2D\$868.3A25.D485.3A12.A567.A4.2D.D2.D3.2D\$908.2D445.2D40.A567.A\$866.A5.A12.2A21.D446.2D23.A2.2D.A11.2D565.A\$427.A438.A5.A11.A2.A21.3D468.A2.2D.A11.2D\$427.A438.A5.A12.A.A23.D468.A5.A26.2D\$411.2D3.D2.D.2D4.A458.A525.D2.D\$371.2D38.D.D2.4D.2D445.3A511.3A28.2D.D556.A36.2D\$371.D41.D9.3A990.D550.2D3.A.A7.2D26.2D\$372.3D11.2D25.2D3.2D.2D10.2A923.2D56.2D549.2D3.A.A7.2D\$374.D11.2D31.D.D11.2A924.D41.2D549.2D19.A\$419.D.D10.2D924.D43.D548.D2.D\$420.D11.2D924.2D39.3D548.D.2D\$400.2D997.D550.D\$400.D1548.2D56.2D\$401.3D1560.2D41.D\$403.D26.A1533.D43.D\$390.2D37.A.A1533.3D39.2D\$391.D21.2A14.2A1536.D\$388.3D21.A2.A\$388.D23.A.A\$413.A3\$1923.A\$839.A1083.2A\$839.2A1081.A.A\$838.A.A6\$1360.2A\$1361.2A\$1360.A5\$403.A\$403.2A\$402.A.A5\$1334.2A\$1335.2A\$1334.A\$1907.3A\$825.A1083.A\$825.2A1081.A\$824.A.A15\$801.3A1080.3A\$803.A1082.A\$802.A515.2A565.A\$1317.A.A\$1319.A46\$1266.2A\$1265.A.A\$753.3A511.A\$755.A\$754.A8\$1847.2A\$1846.A.A\$737.3A1108.A\$739.A\$738.A515.2A\$1253.A.A\$1255.A\$300.A\$300.2A\$299.A.A2\$1232.2A\$1231.A.A\$1233.A6\$1826.A\$1826.2A\$1825.A.A3\$730.3A\$732.A486.2A\$731.A486.A.A\$1220.A2\$270.A\$270.2A\$269.A.A6\$686.3A27.3A\$688.A29.A\$687.A29.A1088.2A\$1805.A.A\$1807.A11\$240.A\$240.2A\$239.A.A432.3A\$676.A542.2A\$675.A542.A.A\$1220.A10\$1202.2A\$658.3A540.A.A\$660.A542.A\$659.A3\$1778.2A\$1777.A.A\$1779.A8\$1188.2A\$1187.A.A\$225.A963.A\$225.2A\$224.A.A21\$167.A\$167.2A\$166.A.A10\$197.A1545.2A\$197.2A1543.A.A\$196.A.A1545.A9\$147.3A\$149.A\$148.A6\$1732.2A\$1731.A.A\$1733.A11\$128.3A\$130.A\$129.A11\$104.A\$104.2A1548.3A\$103.A.A1550.A\$1655.A19\$1635.3A\$1637.A\$1636.A12\$70.A\$70.2A\$69.A.A3\$1614.3A\$1616.A\$1615.A21\$1596.3A\$1598.A\$1597.A4\$50.2A\$49.A.A\$51.A4\$1569.3A\$1571.A\$1570.A8\$19.2A\$18.A.A\$20.A21\$1542.A\$1542.2A\$1541.A.A5\$.2A\$A.A\$2.A26\$1490.3A\$1492.A\$1491.A8\$1505.3A\$1507.A\$1506.A159\$823.2A.A2.A\$429.A2.A.2A387.2A.4A\$429.4A.2A\$823.2A.2A\$431.2A.2A388.A.A\$432.A.A389.A.A\$432.A.A390.A\$416.2A15.A\$416.2A888.2A\$1306.A\$1290.2A12.A.A\$837.2A451.2A10.3A.2A\$837.2A462.A\$1302.3A.2A\$1304.A.2A8\$405.3A\$407.A\$406.A\$1270.2A\$1269.A.A\$1271.A8\$817.2A\$816.A.A\$818.A15\$377.3A\$379.A\$378.A18\$1220.2A\$1219.A.A\$1221.A8\$347.3A\$349.A\$348.A3\$767.2A\$766.A.A\$768.A23\$305.2A\$306.2A\$305.A\$1170.2A\$1169.A.A\$1171.A20\$717.2A\$716.A.A\$718.A3\$272.2A\$273.2A\$272.A23\$1120.A\$1120.2A\$1119.A.A3\$252.2A\$253.2A\$252.A\$667.A\$667.2A\$666.A.A25\$213.3A\$215.A\$214.A16\$1070.2A\$1069.A.A\$1071.A8\$617.A\$617.2A\$205.2A409.A.A\$206.2A\$205.A35\$1020.2A\$1019.A.A\$1021.A23\$567.A\$567.2A\$566.A.A27\$517.2A\$516.A.A\$518.A\$970.2A\$969.A.A\$971.A51\$467.2A\$466.A.A451.A\$468.A451.2A\$919.A.A58\$417.2A\$416.A.A\$418.A!`
chris_c

Posts: 905
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

simsim314 wrote:I think that a target function of running fast in golly is not super good idea, and here is why:

1. Instead of (or in parallel to) trying to fit our patterns into golly, we need to improve golly to work better with our patterns. For example some algorithm that knows how to represent gliders logically will be a game changer.

2. It's not "stable" target. As new programs come out and golly improves, we can get different run times...

I do agree with most of this, at least in part. There are some relatively simple improvements that would make the linear propagator patterns run much faster... here's a chunk of offline correspondence with Tom Rokicki recently:

dvgrn wrote:I'm really much more fascinated by the idea of keeping the number of hashtiles down by setting up a nonstandard simulation geometry. SE-traveling gliders in the recipe stream(s) never interact directly with NW-traveling gliders, so there's really no point in keeping them on the same hashtile. So if every newly-generated SE recipe glider could be automagically tessarected a million ticks to the right, and every NW glider could be teleported a million ticks to the left, Golly could suddenly simulate Gemini like blue blazes.

It's a horribly inelegant pattern-specific thing to do, of course. Making the idea into a generalizable improvement to Golly would require an algorithm that did a lot of pattern inspection and essentially proved theorems on the fly about the interaction of various pieces of the pattern. Not really an idea I want to pursue very far -- I'd be much happier with the assignment of putting together patterns that would break any such algorithm, than working out the algorithm itself.

Anyway, I agree that it's a little silly to have the only target criterion be how fast a pattern runs in Golly. On the other hand, for the quadratic-growth replicator, silly or not, that's the main criterion I'm going to use. I don't so much agree that Golly, or rather Hashlife, is really such an unstable target.

This July will be the tenth anniversary of the release of the original version of Golly. The basic Hashlife algorithm hasn't changed at all in the last decade (or, really, since the algorithm's invention two decades before that) -- and I haven't heard of anybody really stepping up to seriously tackle the problem of improving it. A pattern that runs well in Gosper's original hashlife program would be just as efficient in Golly 2.6, and vice versa. Thirty years going on forty looks stable enough for me...!

simsim314 wrote:3. I can imagine very dense SL populated self replicating pattern with moderate bounding box, that could be fast in golly as SLs benefit most from HashLife.

I can imagine it, too, and I imagine it would be a complete nightmare do the design work for it (at least for me). The closer everything is together, the harder it is to adjust anything. So I'm going to strongly recommend that somebody else should definitely figure it all out, and I'll be very very impressed when it's done.

Meanwhile, like the guy looking for his [eyeglasses|wallet|keys] on the wrong street because that's where the streetlights are, I'm going to stick with self-constructing design projects where I have some hope of not getting hopelessly lost before they're complete. Worrying about synthesizing syringes and such looks like a long step in the wrong direction on the design complexity curve.

So I think it's worth dodging most of those problems, at least until a first-draft quadratic-growth replicator is done, or until much better design tools are available (which I'm also very much in favor of, but unlikely to work much on myself). Somebody can always build a smaller replicator later to address the shortcomings of the first one...!

EDIT: I think chris_c has made a really good case elsewhere, same link as above, for Herschel transmitters being an exception to the old Spartan rule. We have decent recipes now for all orientations of the dead spark coil -- no serious build-order problems at all.

So now the mysteriously unsolved problem is how to put together a universal constructor with a Herschel transceiver, that's a clear improvement on the Spartan alternative. Repeat time below 120, Herschel splitters available at repeat time 204, or you can have cheap reflectors at the cost of doubling the number of gliders per signal for every semi-Snark in a chain of reflectors. That could be a definite improvement, except the repeat time gets worse again as you increase the number of gliders...!

dvgrn
Moderator

Posts: 5830
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

I firmed up my plans for slow syringe synthesis. In the pattern below each row represents a path towards the slow construction of a syringe in a particular orientation. Yellow cells are cells that have already been built. Green cells are cells that are required for the current stage of the synthesis. Red cells are cells that will be built in the future.

The hardest orientation was definitely the last one since it required a cascade of 3 eaters to be constructed "out of order". The first two eaters are constructed by an engineered recipe based on this predecessor "3o4\$2bo\$b2o\$o\$2o!". If anyone knows of a better method please disclose. All of the other eater recipes were from dvgrn's Glue dump here.

`x = 1340, y = 2893, rule = LifeHistory613.E\$572.2D39.3E\$572.D43.E\$573.D41.2E\$572.2D56.2E\$630.E242.E\$627.2E.E201.2D39.3E\$626.E2.E202.D43.E\$607.A19.2E204.D41.2E\$597.2D7.A.A3.2D218.2D56.2E\$569.2D26.2D7.A.A3.2D276.E\$569.2D36.A279.2E.E\$886.E2.E\$887.2E\$857.2A13.2E\$615.A213.2D26.2A13.2E\$615.A213.2D\$599.2D3.D2.D.2D4.A\$559.2D38.D.D2.4D.2D\$559.D41.D9.3A\$560.3D11.2D25.2D3.2D.2D10.2A\$562.D11.2D31.D.D11.2A\$607.D.D10.2D237.2D3.E2.E.2E\$608.D11.2D197.2D38.D.D2.4E.2E\$588.2D229.D41.D\$588.D231.3D11.2D25.2D3.2E.2E\$589.3D230.D11.2D31.E.E\$591.D26.A248.E.E10.2E\$578.2D37.A.A231.2A15.E11.2E\$579.D21.2A14.2A229.2D.2A\$576.3D21.A2.A244.D\$576.D23.A.A246.3D\$601.A249.D\$838.2D\$839.D\$836.3D\$836.D35\$571.A\$571.2A\$570.A.A30\$780.3A\$782.A\$781.A28\$752.3A\$754.A\$753.A13\$488.A\$488.2A\$487.A.A13\$722.3A\$724.A\$723.A5\$458.A\$458.2A\$457.A.A21\$428.A251.2A\$428.2A251.2A\$427.A.A250.A28\$647.2A\$648.2A\$647.A\$413.A\$413.2A\$412.A.A21\$355.A\$355.2A\$354.A.A2\$627.2A\$628.2A\$627.A6\$385.A\$385.2A\$384.A.A9\$335.3A\$337.A\$336.A9\$588.3A\$590.A\$589.A8\$316.3A\$318.A\$317.A11\$292.A\$292.2A\$291.A.A5\$580.2A\$581.2A\$580.A27\$258.A\$258.2A\$257.A.A32\$238.2A\$237.A.A\$239.A14\$207.2A\$206.A.A\$208.A28\$189.2A\$188.A.A\$190.A389\$824.D\$822.3D39.2E\$490.D330.D43.E\$488.3D39.2E289.2D41.E\$487.D43.E274.2D56.2E\$487.2D41.E276.D\$472.2D56.2E275.D.2D\$473.D334.D2.D\$473.D.2D332.2D\$474.D2.D346.2E13.2E\$475.2D19.A327.2E13.2E26.2E\$490.2D3.A.A7.2E360.2E228.2A\$490.2D3.A.A7.2E26.2E562.2A\$496.A36.2E575.D\$1108.3D39.2E\$1107.D43.E\$1107.2D41.E\$827.2E.E2.E3.2D253.2D56.2E\$487.3A337.2E.4E2.D.D38.2E214.D\$493.2D.D2.D3.2D331.D41.E214.D.2D\$491.A.2D.4D2.D.D38.2E282.2E.2E3.2D25.2E11.3E216.D2.D\$491.A10.D41.E283.E.E31.2E11.E219.2D\$491.A.2D.2D3.2D25.2E11.3E272.2D10.E.E279.2E13.2E\$494.D.D31.2E11.E274.2D11.E280.2E13.2E26.2E\$482.2D10.D.D351.2D303.2E\$482.2D11.D353.D\$514.2D330.3D\$515.D330.D\$512.3D326.2A15.2D\$484.3A25.D328.2A15.D\$524.2D333.3D251.2E.E2.E3.2E\$482.A5.A12.2A21.D336.D251.2E.4E2.E.E38.2E\$482.A5.A11.A2.A21.3D594.E41.E\$482.A5.A12.A.A23.D585.2E.2E3.2E25.2E11.3E\$502.A611.E.E31.2E11.E\$484.3A615.2D10.E.E\$1102.2D11.E\$1134.2D\$1135.D\$1132.3D\$1132.D\$1144.2D\$1144.D\$1145.3D\$1147.D9\$455.A\$455.2A\$454.A.A17\$801.2A\$800.A.A\$802.A5\$441.A\$441.2A\$440.A.A15\$417.3A\$419.A\$418.A6\$771.2A\$770.A.A\$772.A5\$1001.3A\$1003.A\$1002.A21\$741.2A\$740.A.A\$742.A5\$980.3A\$982.A\$981.A5\$369.3A\$371.A\$370.A2\$711.A\$711.2A\$710.A.A6\$353.3A\$355.A\$354.A9\$943.3A\$945.A\$944.A9\$346.3A\$348.A\$347.A3\$681.A\$681.2A\$680.A.A6\$332.3A\$334.A\$333.A4\$923.3A\$925.A\$924.A23\$656.A\$656.2A\$274.A380.A.A\$274.2A\$273.A.A\$885.2A\$886.2A\$885.A7\$621.2A\$620.A.A\$622.A3\$249.3A\$251.A\$250.A14\$851.3A\$853.A\$852.A4\$234.A\$234.2A\$233.A.A7\$591.2A\$590.A.A\$592.A8\$211.3A\$213.A\$212.A3\$822.3A\$824.A\$823.A26\$177.3A\$179.A\$178.A606.3A\$556.2A229.A\$555.A.A228.A\$557.A505\$322.D\$322.3D\$325.D276.D\$324.2D276.3D\$337.D4.2A261.D\$335.3D3.A2.A259.2D\$334.D7.A.A272.D\$334.2D7.A271.3D\$355.2D9.2D246.D\$355.D10.2D246.2D\$308.D11.2D31.D.D7.2A270.2E9.2E\$306.3D11.2D25.2D2.3D.2D5.A2.A269.E10.2E\$305.D41.D2.D12.2A223.D11.2D17.2A12.E.E\$305.2D38.D.D3.3D.2D229.3D11.2D17.2A6.2D2.3E.2E\$345.2D6.D.2D228.D41.D2.E\$585.2D38.D.D3.3E.2E\$353.3A269.2D6.E.2E2\$357.A\$342.3A12.A\$315.2D40.A\$315.2D23.A2.2D.A11.2D\$340.A2.2D.A11.2D235.2D\$340.A5.A26.2D220.2D26.2D13.2D\$372.D2.D247.2D13.2D\$342.3A28.2D.D276.2D\$376.D275.D2.D\$318.2D56.2D275.2D.D\$319.D41.2D293.D\$318.D43.D235.2D56.2D\$318.2D39.3D237.D41.2D\$359.D238.D43.D\$598.2D39.3D\$639.D14\$579.2A\$578.A.A\$580.A2\$320.2A\$321.2A\$320.A12\$294.2A\$295.2A\$294.A17\$539.2A\$538.A.A\$540.A2\$278.2A\$277.A.A\$279.A37\$489.2A\$488.A.A\$490.A7\$226.2A\$225.A.A\$227.A14\$214.2A\$213.A.A\$215.A5\$192.2A\$191.A.A\$193.A12\$179.2A\$178.A.A\$180.A4\$439.A\$439.2A\$438.A.A51\$389.2A\$388.A.A\$390.A31\$111.2A\$110.A.A\$112.A14\$339.2A\$338.A.A\$340.A2\$91.2A\$90.A.A\$92.A20\$73.2A\$72.A.A\$74.A25\$42.A\$42.2A\$41.A.A2\$289.2A\$288.A.A\$290.A12\$28.A\$28.2A\$27.A.A38\$239.A\$239.2A\$238.A.A391\$489.A\$488.A.A23.D\$472.3A12.A2.A21.3D\$488.2A21.D\$470.A5.A34.2D313.D234.D260.D\$470.A5.A22.D324.3D232.3D258.3D\$470.A5.A22.3D321.D234.D260.D\$502.D320.2D233.2D259.2D\$472.3A26.2D308.D234.D260.E20.2A\$469.2D11.D328.3D232.3D258.3E18.2A\$469.2D10.D.D330.D234.D260.E\$481.D.D4.D26.2D11.D284.2D233.2D13.2A244.2E\$480.2D.2D3.3D24.2D11.3D250.2D11.E221.2D11.E33.2A212.2D11.E\$477.3A11.D39.D249.2D10.E.E220.2D10.E.E246.2D10.E.E\$480.2D.4D3.2D38.2D261.E.E4.D26.2D11.D187.E.E4.E26.2D11.D213.E.E4.E26.2D11.D\$475.A4.2D.D2.D305.2E.2E3.3D24.2D11.3D184.2E.2E3.3E24.2D11.3D210.2E.2E3.3E24.2D11.3D\$475.A327.D39.D194.E39.D220.E39.D\$475.A316.2E.4E3.2D13.2A23.2D183.2E.4E3.2E38.2D209.2E.4E3.2E38.2D\$792.2E.E2.E18.2A208.2E.E2.E254.2E.E2.E3\$483.A36.2D\$477.2D3.A.A7.2D26.2D\$477.2D3.A.A7.2D\$462.2D19.A348.2D233.2D259.2D\$461.D2.D324.2D13.2D26.2D190.2D13.2D26.2D216.2D13.2D26.2D\$460.D.2D325.2D13.2D218.2D13.2D244.2D13.2D\$460.D313.2D233.2D259.2D\$459.2D56.2D254.D2.D231.D2.D257.D2.D\$474.2D41.D254.D.2D231.D.2D257.D.2D\$474.D43.D253.D234.D260.D\$475.3D39.2D252.2D56.2D175.2D56.2D201.2D56.2D\$477.D308.2D41.D191.2D41.D217.2D41.D\$786.D43.D190.D43.D216.D43.D\$787.3D39.2D191.3D39.2D217.3D39.2D\$789.D234.D260.D3\$433.A\$433.2A\$432.A.A24\$417.3A\$419.A\$418.A16\$394.3A\$396.A\$395.A15\$730.3A\$732.A\$731.A7\$961.3A268.3A\$963.A270.A\$962.A270.A3\$713.2A\$714.2A\$713.A7\$944.2A\$945.2A\$944.A10\$694.2A\$695.2A\$694.A2\$1209.3A\$1211.A\$1210.A3\$925.2A\$357.2A567.2A\$356.A.A566.A\$358.A11\$677.2A\$678.2A\$677.A4\$336.A\$336.2A\$335.A.A\$908.2A\$909.2A\$908.A253.3A\$1164.A\$1163.A13\$316.2A\$315.A.A\$317.A13\$1132.2A\$1133.2A\$1132.A15\$616.3A\$618.A\$288.2A327.A\$287.A.A\$289.A5\$847.3A\$849.A\$848.A2\$1099.2A\$1100.2A\$1099.A10\$600.2A\$601.2A\$600.A7\$831.2A\$832.2A\$831.A7\$1070.2A\$1071.2A\$1070.A2\$583.3A\$585.A\$253.2A329.A\$252.A.A\$254.A5\$814.3A\$816.A\$815.A\$555.3A\$557.A\$556.A7\$242.2A542.3A\$241.A.A544.A\$243.A543.A3\$1056.2A\$1057.2A\$1056.A20\$164.3A\$166.A\$165.A6\$1018.3A\$1020.A\$1019.A11\$145.3A\$147.A\$146.A341.3A\$490.A\$489.A7\$719.3A\$721.A\$720.A4\$993.3A\$995.A\$124.3A867.A\$126.A\$125.A8\$476.3A\$478.A\$477.A7\$707.3A\$709.A\$708.A2\$106.3A\$108.A\$107.A3\$963.3A\$965.A\$964.A3\$458.3A\$460.A\$79.3A377.A\$81.A\$80.A5\$689.3A\$691.A\$690.A7\$439.A\$439.2A\$438.A.A7\$670.A\$670.2A\$669.A.A6\$52.A\$52.2A351.A\$51.A.A351.2A\$404.A.A7\$636.A\$636.2A\$635.A.A23\$3A\$2.A\$.A8\$15.3A\$17.A\$16.A!`

EDIT: Oh... I forgot to mention that I still have no concrete plans for making the beehive-with-tails. Can anyone come up with a nice method?
chris_c

Posts: 905
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

Two different possibilities for three different areas:
`x = 73, y = 34, rule = LifeHistory67.C\$67.C.C\$54.A12.2C\$11.D3.2A37.3A\$11.3DA.A40.A\$14.C41.2A\$13.2C56.2A\$71.A\$68.2A.A\$67.A2.A\$68.2A\$38.2A13.2A\$10.2A26.2A13.2A\$10.2A6\$45.A2.A.2A\$ACD37.2A3.4A.2A\$AD.D36.A2D\$.2AC11.2A24.C2A3.2A.2A\$3.CD10.2A25.DCD3.A.A\$44.D3.A.A10.2A\$6.D42.A11.2A\$29.2A\$8.D20.A\$30.3A\$10.D21.A\$19.2A\$20.A\$17.3A\$17.A!`

chris_c wrote:EDIT: Oh... I forgot to mention that I still have no concrete plans for making the beehive-with-tails. Can anyone come up with a nice method?

I'll look through the soups.
I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)

Extrementhusiast

Posts: 1794
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

Pi + 3 Blocks -> Beehive with tail, but the pi is inconvenient (I don't know all the pi-makers but the G+block doesn't work at least):
`x = 17, y = 9, rule = B3/S232b2o\$2b2o\$6bobo\$6bobo\$6b3o\$15b2o\$15b2o\$2o\$2o!`

Could at least be a good starting point.
Physics: sophistication from simplicity.

biggiemac

Posts: 504
Joined: September 17th, 2014, 12:21 am
Location: California, USA

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

Two variations of another possible seed:
`x = 10, y = 61, rule = B3/S23b2o\$o2bo\$b2o4b2o\$7b2o4\$2b3o\$2bo2bo\$4b2o\$8b2o\$8b2o20\$3bo\$2bobo\$2bo2bo\$3b2o4\$6b2o\$4bo2bo\$4b3o12\$2b2o\$2b2o4\$b2o\$b2o\$5b2o\$5b2o!`

There is also this converter:
`x = 7, y = 8, rule = B3/S232o\$bo\$bobo\$2b2o\$5bo\$5bo\$5bo\$6bo!`
I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)

Extrementhusiast

Posts: 1794
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

Slow seeds (with weak attempt at cleanup) for hive-with-tail in every direction:
`x = 186, y = 45, rule = B3/S23114b2o\$114b2o\$21b2o\$21b2o24b2o105b2o\$47b2o105b2o\$52b2o89b2o\$52b2o58b3o28b2o2\$110bo5bo\$110bo5bo\$110bo5bo28b2o\$64bo80b2o\$18b2o43bobo4b2o40b3o45b2o\$18b2o43b2o5b2o88b2o\$45b2o\$45b2o63b2o\$109bo2bo\$110b2o51b2o4b2o\$94b2o67b2o4b2o\$94b2o\$54b2o\$54b2o28b2o66b2o\$84b2o65bobo\$59b2o55b3o33bo\$59b2o3\$16bo\$8b3o4bobo103b2o29b2o\$15bobo41b2o60b2o29b2o\$6bo5bo3bo42b2o\$6bo5bo\$2o4bo5bo\$2o72b2o\$8b3o12bo50bobo\$23bo50bo\$23bo\$39b3o\$39bo\$28b2o10bo78b2o\$28b2o89bobo\$119bo\$183b3o\$183bo\$184bo!`

Not great, but it's what a cursory search around in catagolue turned up.
Physics: sophistication from simplicity.

biggiemac

Posts: 504
Joined: September 17th, 2014, 12:21 am
Location: California, USA

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

biggiemac wrote:Pi + 3 Blocks -> Beehive with tail, but the pi is inconvenient (I don't know all the pi-makers but the G+block doesn't work at least):
`x = 17, y = 9, rule = B3/S232b2o\$2b2o\$6bobo\$6bobo\$6b3o\$15b2o\$15b2o\$2o\$2o! `

Could at least be a good starting point.

Yeah it looks like that is the basis for Kazyan's blockic seed for the beehive-with-tail here. I tried to get something out of Extrementhusiast's suggestions but wasn't successful. Therefore Kazyan's method looks like the best bet at the moment. The recipe in the link requires that the nearby eater is constructed after the beehive-with-tail:

`x = 27, y = 21, rule = LifeHistory18.2D\$17.D2.D\$18.2D.D\$9.2A10.D3.2A\$9.2A10.2D2.2A\$6.2D11.2A\$7.D11.2A\$4.3D\$4.D\$19.2A\$19.2A2.2A\$23.2A7\$3A\$2.A\$.A!`

In the one orientation where that is impractical an alternative is this:

`x = 316, y = 272, rule = LifeHistory26\$225.A\$224.A.A\$225.2A16\$219.2A\$219.2A16.E\$236.E.E\$212.2A22.2E\$212.2A2.2A\$216.2A\$232.E\$230.3E39.2E\$216.2A11.E43.E\$216.2A11.2E41.E\$210.2A2.2D56.2E\$210.2A3.D\$215.D.2D\$216.D2.D\$217.2D\$232.2E13.2E\$232.2E13.2E26.2E\$275.2E6\$235.2E.E2.E3.2E\$235.2E.4E2.E.E38.2E\$244.E41.E\$235.2E.2E3.2E25.2E11.3E\$236.E.E31.2E11.E\$224.2D10.E.E\$224.2D11.E\$256.2D\$257.D\$254.3D\$254.D\$266.2D\$266.D\$267.3D\$269.D64\$107.3A\$109.A\$108.A81\$30.3A\$32.A\$31.A16\$13.3A\$15.A\$14.A!`

But that's pretty ugly and even the plain five block seed is a bit more expensive than I was hoping for.
chris_c

Posts: 905
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

chris_c wrote:The hardest orientation was definitely the last one since it required a cascade of 3 eaters to be constructed "out of order". The first two eaters are constructed by an engineered recipe based on this predecessor "3o4\$2bo\$b2o\$o\$2o!". If anyone knows of a better method please disclose.

I don't know of anything. That particular orientation of overhang is one of the biggest weaknesses of the current edge-of-reaction-envelope eater recipes.

You could certainly mine the final eater-constructing reactions for other orientations, to find alternate ideas that would work, such as

`x = 90, y = 28, rule = LifeHistory6\$23.A39.A9.A\$23.A39.A8.A\$23.A39.A8.3A\$9.E39.E\$8.E.E37.E.E\$8.E.E4.D32.E.E4.D\$7.2E.2E3.3D5.A23.2E.2E3.3D5.A\$18.D3.A.A33.D3.A.A\$7.2E.4E3.2D3.2A23.2E.4E3.2D3.2A\$7.2E.E2.E33.2E.E2.E3\$32.2A\$32.A.A\$32.A!`

But by the time you've built a boat-or-whatever to turn the trigger glider to the right direction, it's going to come out about the same as what you've got. You still have to push the boat and blinker into place after the eater2 is there, and that tends to be a little expensive.

A much nicer trick would be if there's an eater seed with enough clearance that it can be pre-built before the eater2 seed is triggered. Maybe try out some of the high-clearance eater seeds that were developed for the linear GoL propagator?

...That initial eater2 construction, before the three-eater cascade, seems to spend an awful lot of time on cleanup. Might be worth pre-building a couple of blocks to make the cleanup job easier:

`x = 532, y = 466, rule = LifeHistory349.2A138.A\$349.2A137.A.A23.D\$472.3A12.A2.A21.3D\$488.2A21.D\$351.A118.A5.A34.2D\$350.A.A23.D93.A5.A22.D\$334.3A12.A2.A21.3D93.A5.A22.3D\$350.2A21.D128.D\$332.A5.A34.2D97.3A26.2D\$332.A5.A22.D107.2D11.D\$332.A5.A22.3D105.2D10.D.D\$364.D116.D.D4.D26.2D11.D\$334.3A26.2D115.2D.2D3.3D24.2D11.3D\$331.2D11.D132.3A11.D39.D\$331.2D10.D.D134.2D.4D3.2D38.2D\$343.D.D4.D26.2D11.D84.A4.2D.D2.D\$342.2D.2D3.3D24.2D11.3D82.A\$339.3A11.D39.D81.A\$342.2D.4D3.2D38.2D\$337.A4.2D.D2.D\$337.A\$337.A145.A36.2D\$477.2D3.A.A7.2D26.2D\$477.2D3.A.A7.2D\$462.2D19.A\$345.A36.2D77.D2.D\$339.2D3.A.A7.2D26.2D76.D.2D\$339.2D3.A.A7.2D104.D\$324.2D19.A113.2D56.2D\$323.D2.D147.2D41.D\$322.D.2D148.D43.D\$322.D152.3D39.2D\$321.2D56.2D96.D\$336.2D41.D\$336.D8.2A33.D\$337.3D5.2A32.2D\$339.D2\$433.A\$433.2A\$432.A.A2\$295.A\$295.2A\$294.A.A20\$417.3A\$419.A\$418.A2\$279.3A\$281.A\$280.A12\$394.3A\$396.A\$395.A2\$256.3A\$258.A\$257.A56\$357.2A\$356.A.A\$358.A17\$336.A\$336.2A\$335.A.A4\$171.2A\$172.2A\$171.A12\$316.2A\$315.A.A\$317.A12\$148.2A\$149.2A\$148.A18\$288.2A\$287.A.A\$289.A3\$152.2A\$153.2A\$152.A40\$253.2A\$252.A.A\$254.A17\$242.2A\$241.A.A\$243.A25\$164.3A\$166.A\$165.A19\$145.3A\$147.A\$146.A17\$124.3A\$126.A\$125.A21\$106.3A\$108.A\$107.A10\$79.3A\$81.A\$80.A31\$52.A\$52.2A\$51.A.A33\$3A\$2.A\$.A8\$15.3A\$17.A\$16.A!`

The extra blocks don't seem to make any difference in terms of what red objects have to be pushed into place around corners, later on.

EDIT: One of the longer-range eater seeds in the Glue collection seems to be this one:

`x = 18, y = 24, rule = LifeHistory8.A.A\$9.2A4.3A\$9.A3\$11.2A\$10.A.A\$10.2A2\$8.A5.A\$8.A5.A\$8.A5.A2\$10.3A4\$2.E\$.E.E\$.E.E4.D\$2E.2E3.3D\$11.D\$2E.4E3.2D\$2E.E2.E!`

But that definitely doesn't help with this particular orientation -- all that junk would have to be built behind the eater2, then triggered with a wrong-direction glider.

dvgrn
Moderator

Posts: 5830
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

Although currently not better option and yet another option of synthesize syringe SL:

Here is how it looks:

`x = 26, y = 30, rule = B3/S2319bo\$17b3o\$16bo\$15bobo6bo\$15bobo5bo\$16bo6b3o5\$2o\$2o4\$20b2o\$20bobo\$22bo\$13b2o7b2o\$13b2o2\$5b2o\$5b2o2\$3b3obo\$2bo3b2o\$3b2o\$4bob2o\$4bo2bo\$5b2o!`

And here it is the census.

simsim314

Posts: 1702
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 1:27 pm

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

dvgrn wrote:You could certainly mine the final eater-constructing reactions for other orientations, to find alternate ideas that would work, such as

`x = 90, y = 28, rule = LifeHistory6\$23.A39.A9.A\$23.A39.A8.A\$23.A39.A8.3A\$9.E39.E\$8.E.E37.E.E\$8.E.E4.D32.E.E4.D\$7.2E.2E3.3D5.A23.2E.2E3.3D5.A\$18.D3.A.A33.D3.A.A\$7.2E.4E3.2D3.2A23.2E.4E3.2D3.2A\$7.2E.E2.E33.2E.E2.E3\$32.2A\$32.A.A\$32.A!`

Yeah, that's exactly the recipe that I mimicked. I found the following 4 glider transformation from traffic light to "block + glider" and then all of the other gliders just to do the set up and clean up.

`x = 69, y = 80, rule = LifeHistory61.D\$60.2D2.3A\$59.D\$59.2D.A5.A\$62.A5.A\$62.A5.A2\$64.3A2\$50.3A\$52.A\$51.A25\$38.3A\$40.A\$39.A21\$20.3A\$22.A\$21.A16\$.A\$.2A\$A.A!`

dvgrn wrote:...That initial eater2 construction, before the three-eater cascade, seems to spend an awful lot of time on cleanup. Might be worth pre-building a couple of blocks to make the cleanup job easier.

Quite possibly. You saved eleven gliders but added two blocks. Another option is to save 8 gliders by not bothering to clean up any of the junk on the north side of the eater. Anyway, I think the most savings to be made are in the construction of the beehive-with-tail. I will trawl few a few more of the soups on Catagolue and if I get really desperate I will try to code my salvo search script in C. (Hopefully not though!)

EDIT: This is quite a satisfying seed so it looks like further probing of Catagolue will be fruitful

`x = 118, y = 16, rule = B3/S232ob2o3b2obo3bo\$o7bob3ob2o93bo\$2bo2bo2bobo97bobo\$bo2bob2obo4bo93bo2bo3b3o\$b3o4b5ob2o93b2o\$o2bo4bob2o2bo98bo\$2bo5b3obobo98bo\$2b2o3bob4ob2o97bo\$2b3ob2obob2o\$5ob2ob3ob3o\$o4b2o3bob3o\$4o2b2ob7o\$bobob3ob5obo\$ob3ob2o4bo79b3o\$obo3bo3b3o81bo\$o2b4ob5o2bo77bo!`
chris_c

Posts: 905
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

Well, here's another, cleaner option for the large eater:
`x = 19, y = 13, rule = B3/S238b2o\$8b2o2\$bo\$obo13b2o\$bo13bo2bo\$16b2o2\$11bo\$10bobo3b2o\$6b2o2b2o4b2o\$7b2o\$6bo!`

The tub can also be substituted with a SEbound glider.

EDIT: Upon further review, this does not seem compatible with either the usual FNG or the FNG of the transparent block reaction. Well, back to waiting on the soup search for results.
I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)

Extrementhusiast

Posts: 1794
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

### Re: Slow salvo seeds

I made recipes for the beehive-with-tail in all four orientations. Three of them require a final glider that is coming from the wrong direction but that should be possible using recipes from here. I haven't really thought about if all this is practical yet but at least it should work.

`x = 1053, y = 248, rule = LifeHistory1051.B\$1050.A.A\$1050.2AB\$1051.A10\$322.A\$323.A\$321.3A38\$658.A\$657.A.A\$657.A.A\$658.A2\$653.2A7.2A\$652.A2.A5.A2.A\$653.2A7.2A234.D\$898.3D\$658.A242.D\$657.A.A240.2D\$657.A.A253.D\$635.D22.A252.3D\$594.2D39.3D272.D\$208.2A384.D43.D271.2D\$207.A2.A384.D41.2D292.2E9.2E\$208.2A384.2D56.2D277.E10.2E\$472.E179.D231.D11.2D31.E.E\$224.E245.3E176.2D.D229.3D11.2D25.2D2.3E.2E\$222.3E39.2E203.E178.D2.D229.D41.D2.E\$221.E43.E203.2E178.2D230.2D38.D.D3.3E.2E\$221.2E41.E192.E161.2D13.2D285.2D6.E.2E\$206.2D56.2E191.3E131.2D26.2D13.2D\$207.D252.E130.2D\$207.D.2D248.2E\$208.D2.D215.2E11.E\$209.2D216.2E10.E.E\$224.2E13.2E198.E.E4.E26.2E11.E404.2D\$224.2E13.2E26.2E169.2E.2E3.3E24.2E11.3E402.2D26.2D13.2D\$267.2E180.E39.E131.2D3.D2.D.2D286.2D13.2D\$438.2E.4E3.2E38.2E91.2D38.D.D2.4D.2D316.2D\$438.2E.E2.E136.D41.D324.D2.D\$582.3D11.2D25.2D3.2D.2D316.2D.D\$584.D11.2D31.D.D320.D\$193.3A433.D.D10.2D250.2D56.2D\$195.A31.2E.E2.E3.2E391.D11.2D251.D41.2D16.3A\$194.A32.2E.4E2.E.E38.2E331.2D282.D43.D\$236.E41.E137.A61.2E130.D283.2D39.3D15.A5.A\$227.2E.2E3.2E25.2E11.3E137.A.A17.2E13.2E26.2E131.3D321.D17.A5.A\$228.E.E31.2E11.E139.A.A17.2E13.2E161.D339.A5.A\$216.2D10.E.E185.A3.2D178.2D\$216.2D11.E189.D2.D178.D353.3A\$248.2E161.2A5.D.2A176.3D\$249.E160.A2.A4.DA2.A175.D\$246.3E162.2A4.2D.2A53.2E\$172.3A71.E185.2E41.E\$174.A83.2E156.A15.E43.E\$173.A84.E156.A.A15.3E39.2E\$259.3E153.A.A17.E\$261.E154.A9\$941.3A\$943.A\$942.A6\$395.2A532.A\$394.A.A531.B2A\$396.A531.A.A\$929.B\$583.3A\$143.3A439.A\$145.A438.A\$144.A10\$909.A\$908.B2A\$368.2A538.A.A\$367.A.A539.B\$369.A3\$137.3A\$139.A\$138.A3\$567.3A\$569.A\$568.A5\$111.A787.A\$111.2A235.2A549.2A\$110.A.A234.A.A548.A.A\$349.A12\$884.A\$551.3A330.2A\$553.A329.A.A\$552.A5\$89.2A\$88.A.A\$90.A3\$524.A\$524.2A\$335.2A186.A.A\$334.A.A\$336.A5\$788.3A\$788.A\$789.A20\$49.3A\$51.A\$50.A14\$25.3A470.3A\$27.A472.A\$26.A472.A13\$3A\$2.A\$.A!`
chris_c

Posts: 905
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

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