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is this c/10 spaceship known?

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.

Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby gameoflifemaniac » April 11th, 2017, 12:46 pm

glider_rider wrote:Here's a way to do it with just a glider that I posted earlier.

x = 15, y = 27, rule = B3/S23
3b2o2b2o$3b2o2b2o$2b3o2b3o$2b3o2b3o2$2bo6bo$2bo2b2o2bo$3b6o3$5b2o$4bo
2bo$4b4o$3b2o2b2o$o2bo4bo2bo$3bo4bo$4b4o$o10bo$bo8bo2$5b2o4$13bo$12b2o
$12bobo!

But how about a stable fireship-to-copperhead?
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby toroidalet » April 11th, 2017, 2:19 pm

gameoflifemaniac wrote:But how about a stable fireship-to-copperhead?

Here's a start:
x = 27, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
3b2o2b2o$3b2o2b2o$2b3o2b3o$2b3o2b3o11bo$19b3o$2bo6bo8bo$2bo2b2o2bo8b2o
$3b6o$25b2o$25bo$5b2o16bobo$4bo2bo15b2o$4b4o5b2ob2o$3b2o2b2o4b2obo$o2b
o4bo2bo4bo$3bo4bo7b2o$4b4o$o10bo$bo8bo2$5b2o!

To continue: restore the block on table and leave an excess glider to hit the ship. Shouldn't be too hard.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby dvgrn » April 11th, 2017, 2:30 pm

toroidalet wrote:
gameoflifemaniac wrote:But how about a stable fireship-to-copperhead?

Here's a start...
To continue: restore the block on table and leave an excess glider to hit the ship. Shouldn't be too hard.

I was working on something along the same lines, but without the eaters -- seems like those would get in the way of reconstruction, or at least slow down the repeat time since a lot of gliders would have to cross the fireship lane.

With a ten-minute investigation I could only come up with a four-object proof of concept:

x = 21, y = 69, rule = B3/S23
3b2ob2o$2bobob2o$3bo3$2o$2o8$4b2o$4b2o15$3b2ob2o$2bobob2o$3bo3$2o$2o8$
4b2o$4b2o3$12b2o2b2o$12b2o2b2o$11b3o2b3o$11b3o2b3o2$11bo6bo$11bo2b2o2b
o$12b6o3$14b2o$13bo2bo$13b4o$12b2o2b2o$9bo2bo4bo2bo$12bo4bo$13b4o$9bo
10bo$10bo8bo2$14b2o!

A detector -- preferably using an easier-to-construct bait than either this or the block-on-table, if someone can dig one up -- would split the output signal(s) as necessary, to rebuild the bait and send a timed glider forward to demote the fireship to a copperhead.

Theoretically a bait object with only one protruding cell will also interact with the fireship's sparks, slightly later, but everything I tried destroyed the fireship pretty quickly -- at least with no further catalysts added.

Is there a synthesis that would allow "firing up" a copperhead after it's already in motion? That would require a much uglier converter, though, since I don't think there are any Heisenburp options available for a plain copperhead. (?)

Even if a stable Heisenburp-type reaction could be found, it would probably be just as easy to use a nice simple copperhead-to-glider converter, and then wire up a glider-to-fireship. There's also a fireship-to-glider, but I think for that case the Heisenburp approach will probably be a little more reasonable than rebuilding an entire copperhead.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby Extrementhusiast » April 11th, 2017, 11:06 pm

This produces a sideways HWSS from a block on ship with catalyzing tub (unfortunately, the tub, which becomes a boat, later gets in the way of the fireship, but only just):
x = 19, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
10b2o2b2o$10b2o2b2o$9b3o2b3o$9b3o2b3o2$9bo6bo$4bo4bo2b2o2bo$3bobo4b6o$
4bo2$12b2o$2o9bo2bo$obob2o5b4o$b2ob2o4b2o2b2o$7bo2bo4bo2bo$10bo4bo$11b
4o$7bo10bo$8bo8bo2$12b2o!
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby toroidalet » April 12th, 2017, 11:05 am

A different way to proceed:
x = 22, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
7b2o2b2o$7b2o2b2o$6b3o2b3o$6b3o2b3o2$6bo6bo$6bo2b2o2bo$7b6o6b2o$18bo2b
o$18b3o$2b2o5b2o5b2o$2bo5bo2bo5bob2o$obo5b4o5bo2bo$2o5b2o2b2o5b2o$4bo
2bo4bo2bo$7bo4bo$8b4o$4bo10bo$5bo8bo2$9b2o!

Almost everything with a tail works, so there's that freedom. The important part is rebuilding the baits.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby gameoflifemaniac » April 12th, 2017, 11:29 am

Nope.
x = 20, y = 32, rule = B3/S23
2b2o12b2o$2bo14bo$obo14bobo$2o16b2o8$7b2o2b2o$7b2o2b2o$6b3o2b3o$6b3o2b
3o2$6bo6bo$6bo2b2o2bo$7b6o3$9b2o$8bo2bo$8b4o$7b2o2b2o$4bo2bo4bo2bo$7bo
4bo$8b4o$4bo10bo$5bo8bo2$9b2o!
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby AbhpzTa » April 12th, 2017, 3:31 pm

Fireship + block + bi-block + loaf = copperhead + block + glider :
x = 23, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
9b2o2b2o$9b2o2b2o$8b3o2b3o$8b3o2b3o2$8bo6bo$8bo2b2o2bo$2o7b6o$2o$20bo$
11b2o6bobo$10bo2bo5bo2bo$2ob2o5b4o6b2o$2ob2o4b2o2b2o$6bo2bo4bo2bo$9bo
4bo$10b4o$6bo10bo$7bo8bo2$11b2o!
Iteration of sigma(n)+tau(n)-n [sigma(n)+tau(n)-n : OEIS A163163] (e.g. 16,20,28,34,24,44,46,30,50,49,11,3,3, ...) :
965808 is period 336 (max = 207085118608).
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby towerator » April 13th, 2017, 3:06 am

A very simple reactionn for a simple fireship to copperhead:
x = 11, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
5b2o$3b2o2b2o$5b2o$2bo6bo$3bo4bo$5b2o$2b3o2b3o$2b2o4b2o3$5b2o$4bo2bo2$
3bo4bo$2b2o4b2o$bo2bo2bo2bo$b2ob4ob2o$3bo4bo4$b2o$obo$2bo!

Fireship + glider = copperhead + blinker
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby BlinkerSpawn » April 13th, 2017, 8:30 am

towerator wrote:A very simple reactionn for a simple fireship to copperhead:
x = 11, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
5b2o$3b2o2b2o$5b2o$2bo6bo$3bo4bo$5b2o$2b3o2b3o$2b2o4b2o3$5b2o$4bo2bo2$
3bo4bo$2b2o4b2o$bo2bo2bo2bo$b2ob4ob2o$3bo4bo4$b2o$obo$2bo!

Fireship + glider = copperhead + blinker

The problem with that is that the contraption would have to somehow detect the copperhead and then fire the glider on precisely the correct generation.
AbhpzTa's idea is technically possible to hook up to a slow salvo generator although there's far faster methods available given one output glider.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby Rhombic » April 13th, 2017, 8:35 am

BlinkerSpawn wrote:The problem with that is that the contraption would have to somehow detect the copperhead and then fire the glider on precisely the correct generation.
AbhpzTa's idea is technically possible to hook up to a slow salvo generator although there's far faster methods available given one output glider.


Shouldn't it be possible to build a detector that emits a glider that is split and reflected to rebuild the first detector and to do the fireship+glider thing later on? The speed is only c/10, so catching up with a reflector is trivial, as far as I can tell. Rebuilding the "detector" constellation is trivial and can be done within a finite number of generations - of course, repeat time may or may not be high, but it is possible to do so.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby BlinkerSpawn » April 13th, 2017, 10:49 am

Rhombic wrote:Shouldn't it be possible to build a detector that emits a glider that is split and reflected to rebuild the first detector and to do the fireship+glider thing later on? The speed is only c/10, so catching up with a reflector is trivial, as far as I can tell. Rebuilding the "detector" constellation is trivial and can be done within a finite number of generations - of course, repeat time may or may not be high, but it is possible to do so.

Is it possible to do a nondestructive read on a fireship with still lifes?
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby drc » April 13th, 2017, 5:11 pm

What if we just turn the fireship into a glider somehow and then split that into a synchronized glider synthesis and then synthesize a copperhead? No I'm not stupid, I'm just saying.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby BlinkerSpawn » April 13th, 2017, 6:49 pm

drc wrote:What if we just turn the fireship into a glider somehow and then split that into a synchronized glider synthesis and then synthesize a copperhead? No I'm not stupid, I'm just saying.

I have a feeling that the idea of making a fireship-G-copperhead was mentioned somewhere not too long ago.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby dvgrn » April 13th, 2017, 9:59 pm

BlinkerSpawn wrote:Is it possible to do a nondestructive read on a fireship with still lifes?

That's what this proof-of-concept pattern was. The question is if it can be done with fewer still lifes, or some constellation that's easier to reconstruct.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby gameoflifemaniac » April 14th, 2017, 2:11 am

Is it really that hard to make a fireship-to-copperhead?
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby Sphenocorona » April 14th, 2017, 2:41 am

Well, here's a potential starting bait that should serve as an improvement over the previously shared ones, seeing that it only needs a bi-block and a ship to be reconstructed:
x = 21, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
13b2o$12bobo$13bo3$11b2ob2o$11b2ob2o2b2o$2b4o12bobo$19b2o$2bo2bo$bob2o
bo$bo4bo2$bo4bo$b2o2b2o$b6o$2bo2bo$3b2o$3b2o2$2o4b2o$2o4b2o$2o4b2o2$2b
o2bo!

The ship itself is only there to convert a rapidly formed blinker into a plume that lends itself more readily to forming a workable output.

EDIT: Actually, don't bother with that last bait, here's an even easier bait with an immediate B output:
x = 17, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
2b4o6b2o$12b2o$2bo2bo$bob2obo$bo4bo$11b2ob2o$bo4bo4b2ob2o$b2o2b2o$b6o$
2bo2bo$3b2o10b2o$3b2o10b2o2$2o4b2o$2o4b2o$2o4b2o2$2bo2bo!
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby Rhombic » April 14th, 2017, 6:10 am

dvgrn wrote:
BlinkerSpawn wrote:Is it possible to do a nondestructive read on a fireship with still lifes?

That's what this proof-of-concept pattern was. The question is if it can be done with fewer still lifes, or some constellation that's easier to reconstruct.


Clean:
x = 24, y = 23, rule = B3/S23
2b2o3b2o$bobo3b2o$bo13b2o2b2o$2o13b2o2b2o$6b2ob2o3b3o2b3o$6b2ob2o3b3o
2b3o2$14bo6bo$14bo2b2o2bo$15b6o3$17b2o$16bo2bo$16b4o$15b2o2b2o$12bo2bo
4bo2bo$15bo4bo$16b4o$12bo10bo$13bo8bo2$17b2o!

towerator wrote:A very simple reactionn for a simple fireship to copperhead:
x = 11, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
5b2o$3b2o2b2o$5b2o$2bo6bo$3bo4bo$5b2o$2b3o2b3o$2b2o4b2o3$5b2o$4bo2bo2$
3bo4bo$2b2o4b2o$bo2bo2bo2bo$b2ob4ob2o$3bo4bo4$b2o$obo$2bo!

Fireship + glider = copperhead + blinker

Something like that with a reflector&splitter and then this can be timed.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby dvgrn » April 14th, 2017, 8:38 am

Rhombic wrote:Clean:
x = 24, y = 23, rule = B3/S23
2b2o3b2o$bobo3b2o$bo13b2o2b2o$2o13b2o2b2o$6b2ob2o3b3o2b3o$6b2ob2o3b3o
2b3o2$14bo6bo$14bo2b2o2bo$15b6o3$17b2o$16bo2bo$16b4o$15b2o2b2o$12bo2bo
4bo2bo$15bo4bo$16b4o$12bo10bo$13bo8bo2$17b2o!

That's certainly workable, with a slow-salvo reconstruction if nothing else. It would be nice if the output glider didn't have to cross the fireship lane, but actually that has advantages for rebuilding a bi-block in that orientation, using two synchronized gliders not a slow salvo.

Rhombic wrote:
towerator wrote:A very simple reaction for a simple fireship to copperhead:
x = 11, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
5b2o$3b2o2b2o$5b2o$2bo6bo$3bo4bo$5b2o$2b3o2b3o$2b2o4b2o3$5b2o$4bo2bo2$
3bo4bo$2b2o4b2o$bo2bo2bo2bo$b2ob4ob2o$3bo4bo4$b2o$obo$2bo!

Fireship + glider = copperhead + blinker

Something like that with a reflector&splitter and then this can be timed.

People seem to be missing the clean conversion of glider_rider's that gameoflifemaniac pointed out at the top of this page, that started this whole conversation. Yes, once we have an output signal, timing that glider will be trivial. Rebuilding the bait is the painful part, so it's worth investing some time making sure that the bait is really minimal.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby Extrementhusiast » April 18th, 2017, 5:09 pm

This one isn't too bad, I guess:
x = 20, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
11b2o2b2o$11b2o2b2o$10b3o2b3o$10b3o2b3o$3b2o$3b2o5bo6bo$10bo2b2o2bo$
11b6o3$o12b2o$3o9bo2bo$3bob2o5b4o$2b2ob2o4b2o2b2o$8bo2bo4bo2bo$11bo4bo
$12b4o$8bo10bo$9bo8bo2$13b2o!

Shame it couldn't have been an integral, though.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby dvgrn » April 18th, 2017, 7:04 pm

Extrementhusiast wrote:This one isn't too bad, I guess...

Really that's about as good a bait as we can reasonably hope for. Six gliders could reconstitute it -- or five synchronized gliders plus a cleanup, if the catalyst block is taken out (it barely gets in the way of the cheap eater synthesis).

x = 63, y = 82, rule = LifeHistory
61.A$60.A$60.3A21$25.A.A$25.2A$26.A2$12.A$13.2A$12.2A2$16.C$15.C.C$
15.C.C$12.D3.C$12.3D$15.D.2D$14.2D.2D12$27.3A$27.A$28.A5$2A42.2A$.2A
41.A.A$A43.A3$23.2A2.2A$23.2A2.2A$22.3A2.3A$22.3A2.3A2$22.A6.A$22.A2.
2A2.A$23.6A3$25.2A$24.A2.A$24.4A$23.2A2.2A$20.A2.A4.A2.A$23.A4.A$24.
4A$20.A10.A$21.A8.A2$25.2A!
#C [[ STEP 5 STOP 450 ]]

I don't have the tools to figure out quickly what the shortest slow-salvo-ish reconstitution of the bait would be, with gliders all coming from the same side that the output goes to. It's probably long enough to have a worse repeat time than this five-synchronized-glider recipe, even given the various gliders that will have to cross the fireship lane.

The fastest possible repeat time would no doubt involve some kind of horrible multi-stage recovery system. One-time turners and splitters would be arranged to reconstruct the bait as quickly as possible, while at the same time a huge and awkward pile of circuitry is started up, to rebuild the various turners and splitters.

... Ugh. It still won't be either fast or elegant. So at the moment I'm not tempted to try and minimize the repeat time. Maybe minimize the Heisenburp detector bounding box, and not worry about repeat time. How often do you really see a close-packed stream of fireships going by, anyway?
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby Sphenocorona » April 19th, 2017, 2:28 am

dvgrn wrote:Really that's about as good a bait as we can reasonably hope for.


Hmm... Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, I found this, but the bottom eater is unfortunately in such a position as to prevent a 5 glider total restoration:
x = 32, y = 26, rule = B3/S23
30b2o$13b2o15bo$12bobo13bobo$13bo14b2o3$11b2ob2o$11b2ob2o2b2o$2b4o12bo
bo$19b2o$2bo2bo$bob2obo$bo4bo2$bo4bo$b2o2b2o$b6o$2bo2bo$3b2o$3b2o$23b
2o$2o4b2o15bo$2o4b2o16b3o$2o4b2o18bo2$2bo2bo!


There might be some way of extracting a glider in a less intrusive manner still, but the block on eater bait still looks like a good contender.
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby A for awesome » May 2nd, 2017, 4:29 pm

I think it's worth mentioning these two additional ways for two fireships to pull a block:
x = 26, y = 50, rule = B3/S23
4b2o14b2o$3bo2bo13b2o$2b2o2b2o11bo2bo$2b2o2b2o11b4o$2bob2obo10bob2obo$
4b2o13bo2bo$2bo4bo$b2o4b2o9b2o2b2o$17bo6bo2$4b2o12bo4bo$3bo2bo12bo2bo$
3bo2bo13b2o2$b2o4b2o8b2o4b2o$o2bo2bo2bo6bo2bo2bo2bo$o2bo2bo2bo7b2o4b2o
$bobo2bobo9bo4bo$12b2o$12b2o7$4b2o$3bo2bo$2b2o2b2o$2b2o2b2o$2bob2obo$
4b2o$2bo4bo12b2o$b2o4b2o11b2o$19bo2bo$19b4o$4b2o12bob2obo$3bo2bo12bo2b
o$3bo2bo$18b2o2b2o$b2o4b2o8bo6bo$o2bo2bo2bo$o2bo2bo2bo8bo4bo$bobo2bobo
10bo2bo$12b2o6b2o$12b2o$17b2o4b2o$16bo2bo2bo2bo$17b2o4b2o$18bo4bo!
x₁=ηx
V ⃰_η=c²√(Λη)
K=(Λu²)/2
Pₐ=1−1/(∫^∞_t₀(p(t)ˡ⁽ᵗ⁾)dt)

$$x_1=\eta x$$
$$V^*_\eta=c^2\sqrt{\Lambda\eta}$$
$$K=\frac{\Lambda u^2}2$$
$$P_a=1-\frac1{\int^\infty_{t_0}p(t)^{l(t)}dt}$$

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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby Ethanagor » May 4th, 2017, 7:01 pm

Is this useful?
x = 20, y = 21, rule = Life
4.A2.A$4.A2.A$3.A4.A$3.A4.A$3.A4.A$3.A4.A$2.3A2.3A$2.A.4A.A$3.A4.A2$
19.A$5.2A10.3A$5.2A6.2A.A$5.2A6.2A.2A$3.A4.A$.3A4.3A$3A6.3A$2A8.2A$.
10A$2.8A$4.4A!


Edit: Here's a proof-of-concept for if anyone can find a cheaper block-producing reaction:
x = 53, y = 27, rule = LifeHistory
4.A2BA$4.A2BA$3.A4BA16.BABA2B$3.A4BA9.B4.3BA2BA3B$2.BA4BAB7.2AB.8B2A
4B2.B.A5B$2.BA4BAB7.2A8BA3B2A5BABA6B4.B$2.3A2B3A8.4B2A5B2A2B.3BAB2A8B
.B2A$.BAB4ABAB7.3BA4BA2BA6B2AB2A10B2A$.2BA4BA2B9.B4.BABA8BAB2A11B$.
10B19.8BABA11B$.10B18.A6B3.A5B4.B$.4B2A4B7.2C8.A3B$.4B2A4B3.C3.2C7.B
3A$.4B2A4B2.C.C10.4B$.2BA4BA2B3.2C9.4B$.3A4B3A13.4B$3A6B3A2.2C7.4B$2A
8B2A3.C6.4B$B10AB2.C6.A3B$2B8A2B2.2C4.BABA$4B4A4B9.2A3.B$12B9.3B.B2C$
12B10.C3B2C$12B9.C.CB.B$12B8.C.CB$12B8.C$12B7.2C!


Edit 2: adding one block to the first pattern can eliminate the bee hive for free:
x = 20, y = 21, rule = LifeHistory
4.A2.A$4.A2.A$3.A4.A$3.A4.A$3.A4.A6.2A$3.A4.A6.2A$2.3A2.3A$2.A.4A.A$
3.A4.A2$19.A$5.2A10.3A$5.2A6.2A.A$5.2A6.2A.2A$3.A4.A$.3A4.3A$3A6.3A$
2A8.2A$.10A$2.8A$4.4A!
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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby BlinkerSpawn » May 4th, 2017, 7:37 pm

Ethanagor wrote:Is this useful?
x = 20, y = 21, rule = LifeHistory
4.A2.A$4.A2.A$3.A4.A$3.A4.A$3.A4.A6.2A$3.A4.A6.2A$2.3A2.3A$2.A.4A.A$
3.A4.A2$19.A$5.2A10.3A$5.2A6.2A.A$5.2A6.2A.2A$3.A4.A$.3A4.3A$3A6.3A$
2A8.2A$.10A$2.8A$4.4A!

Extrementhusiast, two weeks ago wrote:
x = 20, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
11b2o2b2o$11b2o2b2o$10b3o2b3o$10b3o2b3o$3b2o$3b2o5bo6bo$10bo2b2o2bo$
11b6o3$o12b2o$3o9bo2bo$3bob2o5b4o$2b2ob2o4b2o2b2o$8bo2bo4bo2bo$11bo4bo
$12b4o$8bo10bo$9bo8bo2$13b2o!
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

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Re: is this c/10 spaceship known?

Postby dvgrn » May 4th, 2017, 7:45 pm

Ethanagor wrote:Is this useful?
Edit 2: adding one block to the first pattern can eliminate the bee hive for free...

Yes, as Blinkerspawn pointed out, that's the reaction from three posts up that allows a rebuild with a couple of pairs of synchronized gliders, plus a cleanup. The block is a good trick but as far as I could see, it ends up just getting in the way and doesn't save anything on the total complexity.

Ethanagor wrote:Edit: Here's a proof-of-concept for if anyone can find a cheaper block-producing reaction...

The p30 glider gun testing for the presence of a block is a good idea, but it limits the timing of the fireships that can go past:

#C sample non-working phase of test pattern
x = 53, y = 27, rule = LifeHistory
4.A2BA17.BABA2B$4.A2BA10.B4.3BA2BA3B$3.A4BA8.2AB.8B2A4B2.B.A5B$3.A4BA
8.2A8BA3B2A5BABA6B4.B$2.BA4BAB8.4B2A5B2A2B.3BAB2A8B.B2A$2.BA4BAB8.3BA
4BA2BA6B2AB2A10B2A$2.3A2B3A10.B4.BABA8BAB2A11B$.BAB4ABAB19.8BABA11B$.
2BA4BA2B18.A6B3.A5B4.B$.10B7.2C8.A3B$.10B3.C3.2C7.B3A$.4B2A4B2.C.C10.
4B$.4B2A4B3.2C9.4B$.4B2A4B13.4B$.2BA4BA2B3.2C7.4B$.3A4B3A4.C6.4B$3A6B
3A2.C6.A3B$2A8B2A2.2C4.BABA$B10AB9.2A3.B$2B8A2B9.3B.B2C$4B4A4B10.C3B
2C$12B9.C.CB.B$12B8.C.CB$12B8.C$12B7.2C$12B$12B!

If we're going to limit the passing fireships to specific phases mod 30, I suspect it will turn out to be possible to come up with a nice clean detector that tests for the presence of the fireship sparks. Set up a vanish reaction near the fireship lane, let's say, and arrange it so the fireship turns the dying spark into a glider. No need to rebuild any expensive still lifes that way.
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