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Die harder

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Die harder

Postby edwin » August 9th, 2017, 6:52 am

Die Harder

I have found a 7-cell pattern in a 7x3 bounding box which vanishes after 132 iterations.

This is better than the current Die Hard (http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Die_hard) which is 8x3 and vanishes after 130.

Die Harder lasts 2 iterations longer and has a smaller bounding box.

Die Hardest

Also, I have found an 8-cell pattern in a 7x3 bounding box which vanishes after 140 iterations.



How do I register these discoveries? Where do I publish the pattern?
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Re: Die harder

Postby Saka » August 9th, 2017, 7:13 am

Well first you need to post the RLE for us to see.

You could do an essay on diehards but a much easier way is to post it on the forums. Many amazing discoveries have been posted and found by forum members; Copperhead Loafer
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Re: Die harder

Postby edwin » August 9th, 2017, 7:37 am

Oops I mis-calculated the number of generations on both. My 132 is actually 130 and my 140 is actually 138.

Nevertheless, even though my 130 equals the lifespan of Die Hard, my bounding box is smaller (7x3 vs 8x3).

I'm in the process of figuring out the RLE format... will post shortly!
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Re: Die harder

Postby Rhombic » August 9th, 2017, 7:47 am

edwin wrote:I'm in the process of figuring out the RLE format... will post shortly!

Just copy&paste from golly directly if you want
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Re: Die harder

Postby edwin » August 9th, 2017, 7:48 am

Rhombic wrote:Just copy&paste from golly directly if you want


I don't have/use Golly. Anyways, I've worked out the RLE formats. My 7x3 7-cell 130-generation is:

#N Die Harder
#C Discovered by Edwin Hermann, 9 August 2017.
x = 7, y = 3, rule = B3/S23
6bo$bo2bobo$2o4bo!



And my 7x3 8-cell 138-generation is:

#N Die Hardest
#C Discovered by Edwin Hermann, 9 August 2017.
x = 7, y = 3, rule = B3/S23
2o$bo2b3o$2bo2bo!
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Re: Die harder

Postby simsim314 » August 9th, 2017, 8:37 am

edwin wrote:My 7x3 7-cell 130-generation is:


Your pattern is the same as in wiki starting from generation 6.

edwin wrote:And my 7x3 8-cell 138-generation is:


Technically 8 cells isn't considered die hard (as explained in the wiki).

We could consider it die hard due to its small bounding box - but a search was never conducted because it's wasn't considered a die hard. 7x3 bounding box has less than half million patterns up to symmetry so it shouldn't be hard to find all die hards in this box.

------

Another question I usually ask newbies - why are you interested in die hards? how can they contribute to other research areas in CGOL? Not saying it's not important on its own right, but usually a finding is as good as its applications in other areas (except of the fundamental questions like spaceships, oscillators and guns - and even they usually important as they can be used for other applications themselves).
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Re: Die harder

Postby Saka » August 9th, 2017, 8:45 am

edwin wrote:
I don't have/use Golly. Anyways, I've worked out the RLE formats. My 7x3 7-cell 130-generation is:

Then what DO you use? You should really download Golly - It's available on mobile AND PC. Golly enables you to explore much more rules, and you can even make your own rules.
For more instructions see the Tutorials page.
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Re: Die harder

Postby edwin » August 9th, 2017, 8:49 am

simsim314 wrote:Your pattern is the same as in wiki starting from generation 6.


Yep, essentially a collision between a box and the traffic lights. As you point out, they are equivalent from generation 6 onwards. My "improvement" is a smaller bounding box to begin with.

simsim314 wrote:Technically 8 cells isn't considered die hard (as explained in the wiki).

We could consider it die hard due to its small bounding box - but a search was never conducted because it's wasn't considered a die hard. 7x3 bounding box has less than half million patterns up to symmetry so it shouldn't be hard to find all die hards in this box.


Yeah I'd read the part about 8 cells and bigger allows people to create arbitrary long die hards. However, I thought it would be considered interesting given its small bounding box.

simsim314 wrote:Another question I usually ask newbies - why are you interested in die hards? how can they contribute to other research areas in CGOL? Not saying it's not important on its own right, but usually a finding is as good as its applications in other areas (except of the fundamental questions like spaceships, oscillators and guns - and even they usually important as they can be used for other applications themselves).


I'm interested in both methuselahs (long-lived methuselahs) and die hards. Dunno why - it's a bit like "mining". Occasionally you stumble upon something interesting, and the it's the thrill of trying to find something that is one better than the last discovery.

Personally I don't have much interest in the practical applications of patterns. I like the challenge of finding patterns within certain constraints, hence why I'm interested in long-lived methuselahs and die hards. For example, I think there's something said for die hards such that the longest bounding box edge is equal to or less than the starting population. Can we find a die hard with initial population 8 and the bounding box 8x8 or smaller? What about population 9 and BB of 9x9 or smaller? I think there are some interesting ones to be found and it's just a matter of finding them. And when we do find one, can we find one that lasts longer?

As for methuselahs I'm also keen to find, for a given starting population, what is the longest lived one. Obviously this page provides me with a baseline: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_ ... ethuselahs

Right now I'm trying to see whether I can beat Bunnies 11 by finding a population-11 methuselah that lasts longer than 17465 generations. Maybe it's not possible, but the challenge is a thrill (at least it is to me).

So maybe this answers your question about why newbies like me like to find die hards (or long-lived methuselahs). Though I'm not sure if you share the same sentiments! :)
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Re: Die harder

Postby muzik » August 9th, 2017, 8:54 am

die658.rle from the Golly pattern files:
x = 20, y = 20, rule = B3/S23
6bo3bo4bo3bo$bo3bobob3o2bo$obo8bobo$2bo3bo2bo6bo$b2o2bo7bo4b2o$b2o5b2o
2bo2b2ob2o$b2o6bo2bo3b2o$2bo2bob2o5bobo$3b2o2b2obo6bo$bo4b2o2bobo5bo$
2bo3bobo$bobo3b2ob3o3bo$3bo3bo2b2o2bo$2bo4bo3bo2bo$3bo2bo2bobobob2o2bo
$o2bo15bo$b2o4b2obo2bo3b3o$4bo4bo2b4o2bo$bo4bobo2bo5b2o$o2bo6bo2bo!
2c/n spaceships project

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Re: Die harder

Postby edwin » August 9th, 2017, 8:56 am

Saka wrote:Then what DO you use? You should really download Golly - It's available on mobile AND PC. Golly enables you to explore much more rules, and you can even make your own rules.
For more instructions see the Tutorials page.


Some years back, before I knew there was software available, I wrote my own online one (http://www.co.nz/gameoflife/). That's what I mainly use. (I'm not claiming that it's better than anything else - in fact it's rather crude and simple, but it serves its purpose for me).
And when you asked me about RLE format for my discoveries, I quickly Googled the file format, found this page: http://www.conwaylife.com/w/index.php?t ... th_Encoded and from that I worked out what the RLE format should be. To test it I found this online GoL tool: https://copy.sh/life/

I've just had a quick look at some screenshots of Golly - it does look pretty powerful and feature-rich. And as you say there's a version for just about every platform (Mac included!).
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Re: Die harder

Postby gameoflifeboy » August 9th, 2017, 12:28 pm

muzik wrote:die658.rle from the Golly pattern files:


Or even better, die743 from the same author, Andrzej Okrasinski.

There was also a 9-cell diehard lasting 215 generations discovered in 2009: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=85&p=453#p446

Unfortunately, the original diehard had one (unfair) advantage that your patterns don't: it was discovered when patterns of this type were more "in style", because the tools needed to find really impressive patterns hadn't been created yet. Thus, history has preserved it as an impressive pattern for its time,

I still think your 7x3 7-cell variant deserves a place on LifeWiki's diehard page, as a smaller bounding-box variant of the canonical form, but it definitely shouldn't get its own separate page.
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Re: Die harder

Postby Gamedziner » August 9th, 2017, 1:28 pm

Can anyone make a small spaceship that produces a long-lasting die hard? Such a spaceship would have a massive spark, making it useful in puffers and the like.
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32b32o$16b16o16b16o$8b8o8b8o8b8o8b8o$4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o$2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o$bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
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Re: Die harder

Postby muzik » August 9th, 2017, 1:38 pm

Well, are there any glider syntheses for it?
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Re: Die harder

Postby simeks » August 9th, 2017, 5:13 pm

edwin wrote:Die Harder
I have found a 7-cell pattern in a 7x3 bounding box which vanishes after 132 iterations.

The longest running die-hard in a 7-by-3 bounding box is this (214 gens):

6bo$3o2b2o$3obobo!

The longest running die-hard in a bounding box area of 21 cells or less is this (234 gens):

bo2bo$5o$4bo$5o!

If you allow a slightly larger bounding box there is this 499 gens die-hard in an 8-by-4 box:

2bo2b3o$o3b2o$o2bo2bo$3o4bo!

edwin wrote:As for methuselahs I'm also keen to find, for a given starting population, what is the longest lived one. Obviously this page provides me with a baseline: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_ ... ethuselahs

Right now I'm trying to see whether I can beat Bunnies 11 by finding a population-11 methuselah that lasts longer than 17465 generations. Maybe it's not possible, but the challenge is a thrill (at least it is to me).

I've been searching for long-lasting methuselahs a bit lately, in this thread.
The longest known methuselah with 11 cells or less is currently this variation of 23334M that was discovered in a 12-cell form by Thomas Rokicki in 2005.
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Re: Die harder

Postby edwin » August 9th, 2017, 7:06 pm

simeks wrote:The longest running die-hard in a 7-by-3 bounding box is this (214 gens):
6bo$3o2b2o$3obobo!

The longest running die-hard in a bounding box area of 21 cells or less is this (234 gens):
bo2bo$5o$4bo$5o!

If you allow a slightly larger bounding box there is this 499 gens die-hard in an 8-by-4 box:
2bo2b3o$o3b2o$o2bo2bo$3o4bo!



These ones have considerably more cells to begin with. What are people's thoughts on which is a better achievement:

1. Finding a die hard that lasts > X number of generations based on a fixed bounding box
2. Finding a die hard that lasts > X number of generations based on a fixed starting population

Another way to answer this question is to ask yourself: Which is better? A 200-gen die hard in a 6x4 box with 10 starting cells, or a 200-gen die hard in a 6x3 box with 11 starting cells?

simeks wrote:I've been searching for long-lasting methuselahs a bit lately, in this thread.
The longest known methuselah with 11 cells or less is currently this variation of 23334M that was discovered in a 12-cell form by Thomas Rokicki in 2005.


Wow, congrats on your findings!

The thing I can't understand is why this page isn't updated with your new record: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_ ... ethuselahs

I'm considering creating a page that lists records. I want to have four lists:

[list=]Longest-lived die hard by number of live cells N within bounding box no bigger than NxN
Longest-lived die hard by bounding box MxN
Longest-lived methuselah by number of live cells N within bounding box no bigger than NxN
Longest-lived methuselah by bounding box MxN[/list]

Clearly this page http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_ ... ethuselahs does not contain current records (e.g. Simeks's findings are not listed there), nor does it contain records that fit my list above. Should I look to create wiki pages here to list (and maintain) these records? Otherwise I might just maintain a page of my own.
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Re: Die harder

Postby edwin » August 17th, 2017, 4:51 am

I found a 7x4 9-cell pattern that dies harder than the previous record (215 generations as found by MadMan). My one dies hard after 229 generations.

The pattern is 00070004148ca60 (for the http://www.co.nz/gameoflife). The RLE format is:

x = 7, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
3bobo$bo3b2o$2bobo$2o!
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Re: Die harder

Postby dvgrn » August 17th, 2017, 8:04 am

edwin wrote:Clearly this page http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_ ... ethuselahs does not contain current records (e.g. Simeks's findings are not listed there), nor does it contain records that fit my list above. Should I look to create wiki pages here to list (and maintain) these records? Otherwise I might just maintain a page of my own.

The list of long-lived methuselahs seems like a good place to add new record-breakers. I've set the trusted flag for your user account on the wiki.

Also added a comment on the list's Talk page in response to your question from three years ago (!):

dvgrn wrote:I'd say this is one of several areas on the LifeWiki -- GoEs and Corderships are two other cases that come to mind -- where we seem to have collectively decided to track named patterns that held some kind of record at some point. Once a record-holding pattern exists, it doesn't get demoted to un-notable just because it gets beaten by a new record-holder. Basically those are the patterns that have gotten talked about most, and therefore that someone might want to look up on the wiki. Also keeping track of them all provides some level of documentation of the historical progression of discoveries in the field.

That would mean that new record-breaking patterns should certainly be added to this list, whereas non-record-breaking patterns probably shouldn't be added. But patterns already on the list should not be removed, even if they're not current record-holders. (Best of both worlds -- not a lot of changes to make!)

I don't think there's a List of Record-Breaking Diehards on the wiki yet, but there's no harm in putting together a trial version and seeing if it gets contributions or adjustments from other people.
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Re: Die harder

Postby edwin » August 20th, 2017, 6:00 am

dvgrn wrote:The list of long-lived methuselahs seems like a good place to add new record-breakers. I've set the trusted flag for your user account on the wiki.


Great, thank you!

dvgrn wrote:Also added a comment on the list's Talk page in response to your question from three years ago (!):

dvgrn wrote:I'd say this is one of several areas on the LifeWiki -- GoEs and Corderships are two other cases that come to mind -- where we seem to have collectively decided to track named patterns that held some kind of record at some point. Once a record-holding pattern exists, it doesn't get demoted to un-notable just because it gets beaten by a new record-holder. Basically those are the patterns that have gotten talked about most, and therefore that someone might want to look up on the wiki. Also keeping track of them all provides some level of documentation of the historical progression of discoveries in the field.

That would mean that new record-breaking patterns should certainly be added to this list, whereas non-record-breaking patterns probably shouldn't be added. But patterns already on the list should not be removed, even if they're not current record-holders. (Best of both worlds -- not a lot of changes to make!)


That sounds fair enough. I like that approach too. (BTW I'd forgotten about that question I'd posted in the talk section!)

dvgrn wrote:I don't think there's a List of Record-Breaking Diehards on the wiki yet, but there's no harm in putting together a trial version and seeing if it gets contributions or adjustments from other people.


Okay, I'll put something together and see what others think. Hopefully it gains a life of its own :)
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