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Thread for basic questions

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby simsim314 » May 14th, 2017, 6:47 pm

Thinking of it - this SL might be also an example of not synthesizable SL, that could be provable.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » May 14th, 2017, 7:48 pm

How is the progress on apgmera-nt going? Is anybody looking into it?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » May 14th, 2017, 9:16 pm

simsim314 wrote:Thinking of it - this SL might be also an example of not synthesizable SL, that could be provable.

It would be nice to have an example of a provably non-synthesizable still life -- then people could stop trying to work out universal incremental glider synthesis toolkits.

However, this is all really really difficult territory for finding proofs. It's way too easy to overlook some subtle weird edge case, and end up with a structure that Extrementhusiast can find a recipe for after all.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » May 15th, 2017, 7:19 am

drc wrote:How is the progress on apgmera-nt going? Is anybody looking into it?


It straightforwardly reduces to writing a program which can convert a 9-input Boolean function into an efficient circuit with a width of at most 13 variables. If you can provide that program, then I could do the rest without too much work.

In terms of writing such an algorithm myself, I think my time has already been committed to other projects until October at the very earliest.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » May 16th, 2017, 9:58 pm

What utilities exist for non-totalistic rules?

Also is there any guide for onfiguring python with Golly because itbrokeonmeagaingoshdarnit
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Ethanagor » May 17th, 2017, 7:27 pm

This might be a stupid question, but are there any known constellations that can convert one glider into two gliders in opposite directions but perpendicular to the original glider's path? I don't care if the constellation itself is destroyed in the process.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby BlinkerSpawn » May 17th, 2017, 9:45 pm

Ethanagor wrote:This might be a stupid question, but are there any known constellations that can convert one glider into two gliders in opposite directions but perpendicular to the original glider's path? I don't care if the constellation itself is destroyed in the process.

There's an entire collection of 2SL splitters of a variety of kinds, certain of which will definitely fit your requirement.
If you want opposite and perpendicular directions subject to some other requirement, however (e.g. opposite directions on the same lane) you might have an issue.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby wildmyron » May 17th, 2017, 10:29 pm

BlinkerSpawn wrote:
Ethanagor wrote:This might be a stupid question, but are there any known constellations that can convert one glider into two gliders in opposite directions but perpendicular to the original glider's path? I don't care if the constellation itself is destroyed in the process.

There's an entire collection of 2SL splitters of a variety of kinds, certain of which will definitely fit your requirement.
If you want opposite and perpendicular directions subject to some other requirement, however (e.g. opposite directions on the same lane) you might have an issue.

The collection can be found in the Splitters with common SL thread. There's a sorted collection which should make finding what you are looking for easy.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby muzik » May 20th, 2017, 8:45 pm

Since we can do so on square and hexagonal grids, are there any programs that can simulate cellular automata on a triangular grid?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Saka » May 20th, 2017, 8:50 pm

muzik wrote:Since we can do so on square and hexagonal grids, are there any programs that can simulate cellular automata on a triangular grid?

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby bprentice » May 20th, 2017, 9:03 pm

muzik wrote:Since we can do so on square and hexagonal grids, are there any programs that can simulate cellular automata on a triangular grid?


See these two threads:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1023&p=7417

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1025&p=8246

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Rhombic » May 29th, 2017, 3:32 pm

General questions:

- Formal proof for the existence of a glider destruction with n gliders for any finite pattern?

- For any stable finite CGoL pattern, there is at least one cell, live or dead within its environment, for which a change in state results in a lower population once the stability of the new pattern is reached.

- Given an oscillator of period p in a given rule (totalistic or non-totalistic) with a ceil(log_2(p))-cell rotor, there a single possible stator to stabilise the rotor.

- What does this simulate/can these 4e circuits be used to simulate WireWorld?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » May 29th, 2017, 4:43 pm

Rhombic wrote:- For any stable finite CGoL pattern, there is at least one cell, live or dead within its environment, for which a change in state results in a lower population once the stability of the new pattern is reached.


I think the answer is 'no'. In particular, we want a pattern of interconnected fuses that looks something like this (rotated by 45 degrees):

o---------------------------------o

Each of the 'o' dumbbells is designed to completely explode if it has been disrupted in any way (thereby causing the '-----' fuse to burn out). Moreover, if it has been disrupted in one of 17 equivalence classes of fuses caused by adding or deleting a cell in the '-------' section, it will explode in such a way as to trigger the synthesis of an infinite-growth pattern.

A scheme such as the following means that we can reduce the problem from 17 equivalence classes to just 1:

x = 489, y = 491, rule = LifeHistory
487.2A$488.A$487.A$486.A$485.A$484.A$483.A$482.A$481.A$480.A$479.A$
478.A$477.A$476.A$475.A$474.A$473.A$472.A$471.A$470.A$469.A$468.A$
467.A$466.A$465.A$464.A$463.A$462.A$461.A$460.A$459.A$458.A$457.A$
456.A$455.A$454.A$367.2A84.A$367.A84.A$368.A82.A$369.A80.A$370.A78.A$
371.A76.A$372.A74.A$373.A72.A$374.A70.A$375.A68.A$376.A66.A$377.A64.A
$378.A62.A$379.A60.A$380.A58.A$352.2A27.A56.A$352.A29.A54.A$353.A29.A
52.A$354.A29.A50.A$355.A29.A48.A$356.A29.A46.A$357.A29.A44.A$358.A29.
A42.A$359.A29.A40.A$360.A29.A38.A$361.A29.A36.A$362.A29.A34.A$363.A
29.A32.A$364.A29.A30.A$365.A29.A28.A$337.2A27.A29.A26.A$337.A29.A29.A
24.A$338.A29.A29.A22.A$339.A29.A29.A20.A$340.A29.A29.A18.A$341.A29.A
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100.A$99.A$98.A$97.A$96.A$95.A$94.A$93.A$92.A$91.A$90.A$89.A$88.A$87.
A$86.A$85.A$84.A$83.A$82.A$81.A$80.A$79.A$78.A$77.A$76.A$75.A$74.A$
73.A$72.A$71.A$70.A$69.A$68.A$67.A$66.A$65.A$64.A$63.A$62.A$61.A$60.A
$59.A$58.A$57.A$56.A$55.A$54.A$53.A$52.A$51.A$50.A$49.A$48.A$47.A$46.
A$45.A$44.A$43.A$42.A$41.A$40.A$39.A$38.A$37.A$36.A$35.A$34.A$33.A$
32.A$31.A$30.A$29.A$28.A$27.A$26.A$25.A$24.A$23.A$22.A$21.A$20.A$19.A
$18.A$17.A$16.A$15.A$14.A$13.A$12.A$11.A$10.A$9.A$8.A$7.A$6.A$5.A$4.A
$3.A$2.A$.A$A$2A!


In particular, at least one of the fuses burns cleanly. So if we terminate all of the fuse-ends by a 'produce-switch-engine-and-ensure-stem-is-triggered-if-burned-cleanly', then the above arrangement could constitute one of the dumbbells.

Producing something that triggers a switch-engine if burned cleanly could be reduced to producing something that produces a glider if burned cleanly (the idea being to construct the switch-engine through a slow glider synthesis).
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » May 29th, 2017, 5:27 pm

calcyman wrote:
Rhombic wrote:- For any stable finite CGoL pattern, there is at least one cell, live or dead within its environment, for which a change in state results in a lower population once the stability of the new pattern is reached.


I think the answer is 'no'. In particular, we want a pattern of interconnected fuses that looks something like this (rotated by 45 degrees)...
A scheme such as the following means that we can reduce the problem from 17 equivalence classes to just 1...

I don't see how that works, at least as you have it set up. The original problem statement specifies a stable pattern, so you have to start with just the fuses, nothing already burning -- and a single cell added to one of the side branch fuses or subtracted from the middle will burn cleanly but produce no glider output:

x = 68, y = 69, rule = LifeHistory
30.2A$30.A$31.A$32.A$33.A$34.A$35.A$36.A$37.A$38.A$39.A$40.A$41.A$42.
A$43.A$44.A$45.A$46.A$47.A2$49.A$50.A$51.A$52.A$53.A$54.A$55.A$56.A$
57.A$58.A$2A57.A$A59.A$.A59.A$2.A59.A$3.A59.A$4.A59.A$5.A59.A.A$6.A
59.2A$7.A$8.A$9.A$10.A$11.A$12.A$13.A$14.A$15.A$16.A$17.A$18.A$19.A$
20.A$21.A$22.A$23.A$24.A$25.A$26.A$27.A$28.A$29.A$30.A$31.A$32.A$33.A
$34.A$35.A.A$36.2A$38.A!

The more complicated you make the fuse terminations to avoid this problem, the more chances there are to find a single-cell addition or subtraction that causes only a limited collapse instead of a catastrophic one.

I was hoping that a nice simple symmetrical pond would turn out to be a counterexample, but turning on any of the eight cells orthogonally adjacent to the pond outside the bounding box unfortunately causes a clean collapse. Most other still lifes of eight bits or less are clearly no good, because removing one cell can collapse them.

There could possibly theoretically still be a surprising case of some smallish still life that always explodes when altered, though. Might it be worth running a quick search up to 16 bits or so, to make sure there's nothing easy along those lines? Seems like it gets less likely fast as the number of bits increases, though.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Ethanagor » June 2nd, 2017, 6:21 pm

Is there a consistent algorithm to create an "inverse" of a rule, i.e. one that has the same behaviour as the original when all "on" cells are turned off and all "off" cells are turned on?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » June 2nd, 2017, 6:53 pm

Ethanagor wrote:Is there a consistent algorithm to create an "inverse" of a rule, i.e. one that has the same behaviour as the original when all "on" cells are turned off and all "off" cells are turned on?

Yes. The algorithm looks simple for Bxxxx/Sxxxx Lifelike rules, and then more complicated for isotropic non-totalistic rules.

For Lifelike rules, let's define the "opposite-count" of a neighbor count: opposite-count(x) = 8-x. To make an anti-rule, just have
  • births on the opposite-count of all the neighbor counts that don't survive in the original rule, and
  • survival for the opposite-count of all the numbers that don't have births in the original rule.
It even actually makes sense if you think about it.

So B03/S238 => B123478/S0123467, because the numbers that aren't there in "03" are "1245678", and subtracting each of those from 8 gives you "7643210", so re-order those and put an "S" in front. Then the numbers that aren't there in "238" are "014567", and subtracting each of those from 8 gives you "874321", so re-order and put a "B" in front, and there's your new rule.

For isotropic rules, see this post if you want all the horrible details.

But then it turns out to be simple again when you get to the 2^512 mostly-anisotropic non-totalistic rules that can be encoded with LifeViewer's MAP syntax. A MAP rule is just an encoding of a string of 512 bits. To get the inverse rule you just have to reverse and then invert the bit string -- write it in the opposite order, and then replace every 0 with a 1 and every 1 with a 0. Someone should have thought of that years ago...!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » June 4th, 2017, 1:58 pm

Okay, now I have a basic question: has anyone ever done any investigation of Snoitareneg rules -- the inverse of Generations rules? In Generations, a cell that dies stops getting counted as a neighbor immediately, but only disappears and gets out of the way after up-to-255 ticks. In Snoitareneg rules, a cell would be born slowly instead: it would start taking up space immediately, but would only start getting counted after up-to-255 ticks.

This seems like an obvious generalization of Generations, but offhand I can't find any mention of it, or any known interesting rules along these lines.

Here's the Snoitareneg version of Brian's Brain, /2/3, just for a random trial -- assuming I got the rule table right:

@RULE BrainsBrian

A Snoitareneg rule -- inverse Generations -- for Brian's Brain, /2/3

state 0:  OFF
state 1:  turning ON
state 2:  ON

@TABLE

n_states:3
neighborhood:Moore
symmetries:permute

var a={0,1,2}
var b={0,1,2}
var c={0,1,2}
var d={0,1,2}
var e={0,1,2}
var f={0,1,2}
var g={0,1,2}
var h={0,1,2}

var i={0,1}
var j={0,1}
var k={0,1}
var l={0,1}
var m={0,1}
var n={0,1}

# cells are born (gradually) if they have 2 ON neighbors
0,2,2,i,j,k,l,m,n,1

# to ON after one tick
1,a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,2

# all ON cells die
2,a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,0

@COLORS
1    0  128    0
2  216  255  216

This particular experiment doesn't seem terribly interesting right away -- it's still just kind of Seeds-like and explody -- though there are some odd effects with the being-born cells getting out of phase with large areas of ON cells:

x = 110, y = 154, rule = BrainsBrian
24.A2.A52.A2.A2$25.2A54.2A46$52.A2.A2$53.2A$53.2B69$105.A$107.A$107.A
$105.A6$105.A$107.AB$107.AB$105.A6$105.A$B106.BA$2.B.A102.BA$2.B.A
100.A$B4$105.B$105.B.B$105.2B.B$104.B.B2.B$109.B$108.B$107.B$103.B!

Seems to me I should be able to emulate this kind of rule directly by a Generations rule in Golly, by using a bounded grid of all-ON cells and the inverse of the rule I want.

For example, if the Brian's Brain rule is /2/3 -- i.e., B2/S with 3 states -- then the anti-rule would be B012345628/S01234578. So "Brain's Brian" ought to be emulated by 01234578/012345678/3. Only Golly 2.9b1 has any chance of supporting that, though, due to the "B0" -- and so far it's not working out the way I want it to. How am I thinking wrong here?

x = 512, y = 512, rule = 01234578/012345678/3:T512,512
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$254A.257A$253A2.257A$254A2.256A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A
$512A$512A!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby bprentice » June 4th, 2017, 5:41 pm

dvgrn wrote:Okay, now I have a basic question: has anyone ever done any investigation of Snoitareneg rules -- the inverse of Generations rules?


The Square Cell 'Rule Table' family of rules are controlled by two dialogs. The first specifies a rule's parameters and the second specifies a rule's options such as number of states. An example of the parameter dialog set for the Snoitareneg version of Brian's Brain is shown below.

ex1.png
ex1.png (127.1 KiB) Viewed 1143 times


Notice that S2 is set to 1 and S1 is set to 0 in the State Weights panel. To specify the Brian's Brain rule simply reverse these parameters by setting S1 to 1 and S2 to 0.

The following is a puffer running in the Snoitareneg version of Brian's Brain.

ex2.png
ex2.png (49.19 KiB) Viewed 1143 times


You might try using Square Cell to quickly find interesting rules and then write a Golly rule table for any rule that warrants a more serious exploration.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby blah » June 4th, 2017, 5:50 pm

dvgrn wrote:Seems to me I should be able to emulate this kind of rule directly by a Generations rule in Golly, by using a bounded grid of all-ON cells and the inverse of the rule I want.

For example, if the Brian's Brain rule is /2/3 -- i.e., B2/S with 3 states -- then the anti-rule would be B012345628/S01234578. So "Brain's Brian" ought to be emulated by 01234578/012345678/3. Only Golly 2.9b1 has any chance of supporting that, though, due to the "B0" -- and so far it's not working out the way I want it to. How am I thinking wrong here?

The way I understand what you're saying, when a live cell is 'born', it first has to go through one or more states during which time it is counted as dead. If this is so, consider the fact that in a reverse generations (or Snoitareneg) rule with n states, the speed limit for spaceships must be <= c/(n-1).

As such, your idea of simulating Snoitareneg rules with generations rules is impossible. A refractory cell in the generations rule would be treated as state 0, which would be state 1 in the emulated Snoitareneg rule, so it's contrary to how they should act. By the way, Lifeviewer and Golly (even 2.9b1) can't run your rule anyway because it has B0. My software can. Here it is after 50 generations:
x = 512, y = 512, rule = 01234578/012345678/3:T512,512
512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$256A2B254A$256A2.254A$255A.2A.253A$254AB4AB252A$253AB.B3A.B251A$252AB3AB.254A$251AB.3A.4AB250A$254A2.5A.250A$250AB2A.3ABA.2A.249A$249AB.3A.2A.BA2BAB248A$255A2.B4AB.B247A$248ABAB3A.AB2ABAB250A$248A.A2B2A.B2AB2.4AB246A$247A.A.B7A.3A2.A.246A$246AB2A.7A3BAB2A.A.245A$246A.2A.BAB5A.2A.A.3AB244A$239A2B3AB.4AB4ABA.2A.4ABA.B243A$238AB2.2AB.3A.A.ABA.AB6AB248A$241A.B2AB5A.2AB.BABA.8AB242A$237AB13A2.2AB.B3A3.B4A.242A$237A.A2B3A2.A4B.AB7A.ABABA.2A.241A$236A.2AB3.3ABA.B15A.2A2BAB240A$235ABAB3A.A.2A.A.3A2.B2A2BAB2AB2.B3AB.B239A$234AB.BAB3A3B2A.A.3BA.B6AB.5AB242A$237A2B5A.A2.2A.2ABA.3AB2A2B2A3.4AB238A$233AB2A2.9ABA.3A.7AB.BAB4A2.A.238A$233A.A3.2A2BA3.3A.9A3B.ABAB3ABA.A.237A$232A.A.A.AB4A2.2A.3A2B6A.3B.2BA.B3AB2AB236A$231AB2ABA.B9A.2A2B6A.A.B2A2B2A.BA3BA.B235A$230AB.B10A.4A.2AB5A.3BA.2AB246A$235AB4A2BA.13AB3A.2A2B11AB234A$229AB3A2.AB8A2.BA4B4AB3AB2A.AB.2A2B5A.234A$228AB.3A2.8A.2ABAB2AB4A.B2ABA2.4AB3A3B.2A.233A$227AB5A2.6A.2A.11A.B2A7.ABAB5A2BAB232A$227A.6A.5A.3AB2AB.3B8AB17AB.B231A$233A3.3A2B.6A2BAB5AB254A$235A.10A.A.BAB.A.2A.4AB4A2B.11AB230A$231A2.BA.5AB4A2.2B.B2A.7AB7A3.4A3.A.230A$231A.2AB3A2.2AB3A.AB6AB6AB2ABAB2.2A3.2B3A.A.229A$226AB3A.AB2A.9ABA.B8AB4ABAB2A.10A2.3AB228A$225AB4A.4AB4A2B3A.B5AB6A2B2ABABA2BA4.7ABA.B227A$224AB3A.5A2B4A.B3AB2AB.4AB3ABAB3AB2.AB.2A.A.3A2B232A$224A.A.BA4BA.AB3A3BA.AB2ABA3.B3A2B4A.ABAB.2A.A.10AB226A$223A.A.3AB.2A.2A2B.2AB.2A2.A2BA2.4A.5ABABA2B3A.8A3.A.226A$222AB2A.3ABA.3AB3ABA.6A.2B3A4.10A.A.A2.4ABAB.2A.A.225A$221AB.A2.6A.3AB3A.7A.2A.2ABA.2A2B5AB3A.4ABA2.3A.A.2AB224A$236A.3A.6A.A.AB3AB2AB14AB2AB.A2BA.2A.A.B223A$220ABAB13A.A3.4AB3A2B3AB12AB.2B.AB6A3.BA.226A$220A.AB3A2.3AB4A3.A5.2B14A2B.2B.A2B.2B.5A2BABAB.A.B223A$220ABA2B7A2B10A.2AB11AB4AB.2A.A3BA2B2ABA3BAB3AB224A$224A.2A2.2A.2AB.B5AB.3A2BA.8A3.4A.AB2A2BA.AB9A.225A$221AB.A.A.A.2A.7A4B5A2.ABAB5A2.6A.BABA2.BAB8A.226A$222AB7A.A.B4A.A2.2A.4A2.B15A.B5AB2ABA2BA2BAB226A$223A.7A.ABA.2BA.2A2.5A3B3A.7AB2A3B2AB7ABAB230A$224A.AB3AB2AB8A.A2B11A.A3BAB4AB3AB.2ABAB3.A.B227A$224ABAB2A.2A.9A2.2A2B4AB2AB2.AB6A2BA.A3BA2.2A.3AB228A$228A.2AB4AB11A2BAB.2AB2A.7A.2A3.B2A.6A.229A$225AB.A3.3A2B2A2.3AB5A.2A.B2AB2A2.4A.BAB.2A.8A.230A$226AB5A3.A.A.9A4.B7A.3A.10A2BA2BAB230A$227A.4A.2A.8AB2A.A.5AB4A.ABA.2AB6AB237A$228A.AB3A.AB19A.3A2.4B.B.A.AB4A.A.B231A$228ABAB4ABAB7A2BA.4A.3B2A.3AB2ABABA2.ABAB3AB232A$232A2.A2B2AB6AB3ABABA.2B3AB.4ABA.9A.233A$229AB.A.2A.3ABAB2A.4ABAB2AB.12AB.3AB3A.234A$230AB9AB7AB4AB2AB15AB2ABAB234A$231A.6A3.B3AB2AB2A2.B2AB4A.3A2.BAB.2AB238A$232A.2AB2A.3ABABA.6A2BA.5ABA3.2AB2A2.A.B235A$232ABA2B4A.2ABAB.9A2.5AB6A.4AB236A$236A.7ABAB3A.B4A.A.B5AB2A.A.3A.237A$233AB.A.3AB4AB4A2B2ABABA2B5AB.A3B2A.238A$234AB3ABA.3A.B3.AB.AB.BABAB4AB6ABAB238A$238A3.A2.3B3A.A2B.2B.5AB2A3.243A$235AB.10ABA.2A4BA.AB6A.A2.A.B239A$236AB.5AB3A.A.4AB2A2B4ABA2.4AB240A$238A.5A3BA.A.19A.241A$238ABA2BAB2.2A.10AB6A2BA.242A$242AB2A.A.A.8A2.7ABAB242A$239AB.A2.5A.13AB2.246A$240AB6A.3BA2B3A.4ABA2.A.B243A$244AB4AB2AB.A.11AB244A$241AB.AB2ABA.3A.2A.A3B5A.245A$242AB.6A4.4AB3AB2A.246A$244A.A.BA2B12ABAB246A$244AB3A2B3AB258A$248A2.3BAB6A.A.B247A$245AB.A.A.A.5A2B3AB248A$246AB6AB8A.249A$247A.13A.250A$248A.B2AB3.3ABAB250A$248ABABAB5.254A$249A.9A.B251A$250A.8AB252A$250AB3A2.2A.253A$251AB.A2BA.254A$252AB4AB254A$253A.2A.255A$254A2.256A$254A2B256A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A$512A!

The domino heads at the top and bottom spread at c, which should be impossible.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Ethanagor » June 4th, 2017, 7:42 pm

Thanks! Works like a charm.

Unrelated question: I just finally got APGsearch to work,mbut I can't figure out how to change the symmetries, as it always says the symmetry is invalid. Which symmetries are valid?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » June 4th, 2017, 7:47 pm

Ethanagor wrote:Which symmetries are valid?


They're listed here: https://catagolue.appspot.com/census/b38s23 (everything after the slash, such as 'C1', is the symmetry).
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby wildmyron » June 5th, 2017, 1:36 am

dvgrn wrote:Okay, now I have a basic question: has anyone ever done any investigation of Snoitareneg rules -- the inverse of Generations rules? In Generations, a cell that dies stops getting counted as a neighbor immediately, but only disappears and gets out of the way after up-to-255 ticks. In Snoitareneg rules, a cell would be born slowly instead: it would start taking up space immediately, but would only start getting counted after up-to-255 ticks.

This seems like an obvious generalization of Generations, but offhand I can't find any mention of it, or any known interesting rules along these lines.

@Tropylium introduced the idea of "Nascent" cells 5 years ago: Generations-Like Rules: Rulespace Overview but I can't find any further mention of rules which explored this cell type. A similar idea was introduced in Delayed-Birth Rules, which I mistook for nascent cells, but in this case the conditions for a cell to become live are more complex.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Ethanagor » June 5th, 2017, 8:40 pm

Alright, another newbie question. I might have a few of these as I am working out how to use APGSearch.
I started a search, and set it to report the census after five million soups. However, I am going to have to end the search prematurely, though it is only currently at 2.5 million soups. Is there a way to report the census anyway?
Also, is there a way to change the default settings so that I don't have to reenter information every time?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » June 5th, 2017, 8:56 pm

Ethanagor wrote:Alright, another newbie question. I might have a few of these as I am working out how to use APGSearch.
I started a search, and set it to report the census after five million soups. However, I am going to have to end the search prematurely, though it is only currently at 2.5 million soups. Is there a way to report the census anyway?
Also, is there a way to change the default settings so that I don't have to reenter information every time?

Pressing q on apgsearch (golly/python). Apgnano and apgmera don't have a function for this.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » June 6th, 2017, 8:35 am

Wasn't there a browser Golly called 'Molly' or something? I can't find it but I seem to remember it was a little thing.
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