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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » July 10th, 2017, 4:45 pm

Why does B7 make Life-related rules interesting? (e.g. Life, tlife)
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby toroidalet » July 11th, 2017, 11:28 am

drc wrote:Why does B7 make Life-related rules interesting? (e.g. Life, tlife)

That is down to coincidence.
Compare:
x = 5, y = 8, rule = B3-e/S23
b3o$o3bo$2ob2o3$2bo$bobo$2bo!

x = 5, y = 8, rule = B3-e7/S23
b3o$o3bo$2ob2o3$2bo$bobo$2bo!

(yes, I know that the c/14 diagonal ship works in B3-e7/S23, but that's not as interesting (in my opinion))
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Ethanagor » July 13th, 2017, 10:52 pm

Well, I never got SLmake to run. I even tried it again on my laptop. doesn't work, but for different reasons. However, I found a much easier way to do what I was trying to, which does not require SLMake. Thanks everyone for your help!
Tangentially related question: In the Herschel conduit collection, why are there some conduits that destroy the conduit immediately with a block, turning it into a traffic light and not giving the labelled output? Example:
x = 53, y = 48, rule = LifeHistory
D3.D.D3.D.5D3.D4.3D2.5D3.D6.D2.D$D3.D.2D2.D.D6.2D3.D7.D4.2D5.2D2.D$D
3.D.D.D.D.D7.D3.D7.D5.D4.D.D2.4D$5D.D2.2D.3D5.D3.4D4.D5.D3.D2.D2.D3.D
$D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D3.D3.D5.D3.5D.D3.D$D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D3.D3.D5.D6.D2.D
3.D$D3.D.D3.D.5D2.3D3.3D4.D4.3D5.D2.4D10$41.3B$40.4B$39.4B$38.4B$37.
4B$36.4B$21.B13.4B$20.3B11.4B$18.6B8.5B$12.4B2.7B3.8B$10.26B$9.4BD23B
$9.4BDBD21B.3B$9.4B3DB2A22B$9.6BDB2A21B2A$10.28B.B2A$14.23B3.B$16.B2.
18B$19.17B$19.17B$19.19B$20.18B$20.4B2.12B$26.11B$26.8B$26.10B$22.A.
2AB.4B2.2A$20.3AB2AB7.A$19.A4.B10.3A$20.3A.2A11.A$22.2A2.A$25.2A!


For reference:
x = 53, y = 48, rule = LifeHistory
D3.D.D3.D.5D3.D4.3D2.5D3.D6.D2.D$D3.D.2D2.D.D6.2D3.D7.D4.2D5.2D2.D$D
3.D.D.D.D.D7.D3.D7.D5.D4.D.D2.4D$5D.D2.2D.3D5.D3.4D4.D5.D3.D2.D2.D3.D
$D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D3.D3.D5.D3.5D.D3.D$D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D3.D3.D5.D6.D2.D
3.D$D3.D.D3.D.5D2.3D3.3D4.D4.3D5.D2.4D10$41.3B$40.4B$39.4B$38.4B$37.
4B$36.4B$21.B13.4B$20.3B11.4B$18.6B8.5B$12.4B2.7B3.8B$10.26B$9.4BA23B
$9.4BABA21B.3B$9.4B3AB2A22B$9.6BAB2A21B2A$10.28B.B2A$14.23B3.B$16.B2.
18B$19.17B$19.17B$19.19B$20.18B$20.4B2.12B$26.11B$26.8B$26.10B$22.A.
2AB.4B2.2A$20.3AB2AB7.A$19.A4.B10.3A$20.3A.2A11.A$22.2A2.A$25.2A!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » July 13th, 2017, 11:10 pm

Ethanagor wrote:Tangentially related question: In the Herschel conduit collection, why are there some conduits that destroy the conduit immediately with a block, turning it into a traffic light and not giving the labelled output?

Those are the so-called "dependent" conduits -- they interact with an active reaction three ticks before it becomes a Herschel.

So if you connect another conduit's output to that conduit's input, it will work fine -- but don't expect to get a glider out in the usual place, since the interaction with the block suppresses that output.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby gameoflifemaniac » July 15th, 2017, 9:08 am

Where are all the saved rules stored in Golly?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » July 15th, 2017, 9:36 am

gameoflifemaniac wrote:Where are all the saved rules stored in Golly?

It's OS-specific. See File > Preferences > Control to see the path for your system. This came up just a couple of weeks ago.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Rhombic » July 16th, 2017, 6:06 am

What is a good estimate/guess of the minimum population of the smallest possible universal constructor-based spaceship? (Gemini-like)
As in, how small would the smallest be likely to be?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » July 16th, 2017, 7:53 am

Rhombic wrote:What is a good estimate/guess of the minimum population of the smallest possible universal constructor-based spaceship? (Gemini-like)
As in, how small would the smallest be likely to be?

There's some kind of answer to that in response to muzik's question, in the lower part of this post. If you're optimizing population it seems hard to beat a design like the Demonoid with two 180-degree reflectors to hold the signals that run the universal constructor(s).

We could probably improve the current 0hd Demonoid from 27,250 cells down to somewhere below 20,000 cells by obsessively optimizing the existing design. The current version uses suboptimal slow salvos, suboptimal self-destruct circuitry, and suboptimal 0hd glider-pair recipes. Maybe not suboptimal by all that much, but a whole lot more searching would improve things in each subcategory.

Smallest Findable, or Smallest "Out There"?
By "smallest possible" do you mean the absolute smallest population self-constructing spaceship that's waiting out there somewhere to be discovered -- a pattern of Go stones in the corner of Plato's Cave, let's say? That's going to depend on whether Plato's Cave also has an undiscovered stable glider splitter that's easy to construct, and/or a much cheaper way to build a Snark or a similar 90-degree reflector.

The odds seem pretty good that Scorbie's G-to-2G constructor/reflector isn't the absolute best glider splitter that could ever be discovered. Quite likely there's something that's not based on a syringe, that has a significantly faster recovery time, closer to the Snark's 43 ticks. That would make single-channel construction arms much much more efficient, by hugely expanding the search space.

Guesses Starting from Where We Are
If we assume there's something out there like that, then the estimate can pretty safely go down into the high four-digit range -- 5000 to 9999 ON cells, let's say.

Construction efficiency estimates between the Gemini and the various Demonoids hint that there's something like a factor of two population improvement available by going back to Gemini-style construction, with two intersecting streams of gliders. If that works, we'd be down to maybe 2500 to 4999 ON cells.

If we had full access to Plato's Cave it would probably turn out that the optimal construction method is something we're barely even imagining yet. Just for example, it might be vaguely along these lines:

x = 331, y = 341, rule = LifeHistory
79.2A$79.2A4$77.8B$76.4B2.4B$75.4B4.4B$74.4B6.4B$73.4B8.4B$72.4B10.4B
$71.4B12.4B$70.4B14.4B$69.4B16.4B$68.4B18.4B$67.4B20.4B$66.4B22.4B$
65.4B24.4B$64.4B26.4B$63.4B28.4B$62.4B30.4B$61.4B32.4B$60.4B34.4B$59.
4B36.4B$58.4B38.4B$57.4B40.4B$56.4B42.4B$55.4B44.4B$54.4B46.4B$53.4B
48.4B$52.4B50.4B$51.4B52.4B$50.4B54.4B$49.4B56.4B$48.4B58.4B$47.4B60.
4B$46.4B62.4B$45.4B64.4B$44.4B66.4B$43.4B68.4B$42.4B70.4B$41.4B72.4B$
40.4B74.4B$39.4B76.4B$38.4B78.4B$37.4B80.4B$36.4B82.4B$35.4B84.4B$34.
4B86.4B$33.4B88.4B$32.4B90.4B$31.4B92.4B$30.4B94.4B$29.4B96.4B$28.4B
98.4B$27.4B100.4B$26.4B102.4B$8.2A8.A6.4B104.4B6.A8.2A$7.B2AB5.3A5.4B
106.4B5.3A5.B2AB$8.3B4.A7.4B108.4B7.A4.3B$2A5.B.B5.2A5.4B110.4B5.2A5.
B.B5.2A$.A5.10B4.4B112.4B4.10B5.A$.A.AB2.8B5.4B114.4B5.8B2.BA.A$2.2AB
.11B2.4B116.4B2.11B.B2A$4.18B118.13B2A3B$4.5B2A10B120.12B2A3B$5.4B2A
9B122.15B$5.14B124.14B$5.14B124.14B$4.A.14B122.14B.A$3.A.A5.5B.4B120.
4B.5B5.A.A$4.A7.4B2.4B118.4B2.4B7.A$12.2B5.4B116.4B5.2B$11.4B5.4B114.
4B5.4B$11.B2AB6.4B112.4B6.B2AB$12.2A8.4B110.4B8.2A$23.4B108.4B$24.4B
106.4B$25.4B104.4B$26.4B102.4B$27.4B100.4B$28.4B98.4B$29.4B96.4B$30.
4B94.4B$31.4B92.4B$32.4B90.4B$33.4B88.4B$34.4B86.4B$35.4B84.4B$36.4B
82.4B$37.4B80.4B$38.4B78.4B$39.4B76.4B$40.4B74.4B$41.4B72.4B$42.4B70.
4B$43.4B68.4B$44.4B66.4B$45.4B64.4B$46.4B62.4B$47.4B60.4B$48.4B58.4B$
49.4B56.4B$50.4B54.4B$51.4B52.4B$52.4B50.4B$53.4B48.4B$54.4B46.4B$55.
4B44.4B$56.4B42.4B$57.4B40.4B$58.4B38.4B$59.4B36.4B$60.4B34.4B$61.4B
32.4B$62.4B30.4B$63.4B28.4B$64.4B21.B4.4B16.A11.2A$65.4B19.3B2.4B16.A
.A9.B2AB$66.4B10.2A5.9B17.A.A9.3B$67.4B10.A4.9B12.2A2.3A.2A9.B.B$68.
4B9.A.AB.8B13.A2.A4.B8.5B$69.4B9.2AB.9B3.4B2.BA.A3.3AB2A6.6B$70.4B10.
11B2.5B2.B2A6.A.2A4.8B$71.4B9.11B2.8B10.13B$72.4B8.21B12.13B$73.4B8.
19B12.15B$74.4B6.19B2.B10.15B$75.4B3.26B5.B.17B$76.4B.51B$77.4B.21B2A
13B2A13B$78.25B2A13B2A14B$79.50B3.B2A$80.48B4.A2.A$79.33B2.2B2.B3.6B
5.2A.A$79.16B2.7B2.4B13.6B7.A$79.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A$80.14B5.3B19.2A4.4B
$83.9B.3B4.B21.A5.4B$83.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B$84.4B6.A24.A10.4B$86.4B5.3A
33.4B$88.2A7.A34.4B$88.A44.4B$89.3A42.4B$91.A43.4B$136.4B$137.4B$138.
4B$139.4B$140.4B$141.4B$142.4B$143.4B$144.4B$145.B3A$146.AB.B$147.A3B
$148.4B$149.4B$150.4B$151.4B$152.4B$153.4B$154.4B$155.4B$156.4B$157.
4B$158.4B$159.4B$160.4B$161.4B$162.4B$163.4B$164.4B$165.4B$166.4B$
167.3BA$168.B2AB$169.ABAB$170.4B$171.4B$172.4B$173.4B$174.4B$175.4B$
176.4B$177.4B$178.4B$179.4B$180.4B$181.4B$182.4B$183.4B$184.4B$185.4B
$186.4B$187.4B$188.4B$189.4B$190.2B2A$191.BABA$192.A3B$193.4B$194.4B$
195.4B$196.4B$197.4B$198.4B$199.4B$200.4B$201.4B$202.4B$203.4B$204.4B
$205.4B$206.4B$207.4B$208.4B$209.4B$210.4B$211.4B$212.4B$213.B3A$214.
A3B$215.A3B$216.4B$217.4B$218.4B$219.4B$220.4B$221.4B$222.4B$223.4B$
224.4B$225.4B$226.4B$227.4B$228.4B$229.4B$230.4B$231.4B$232.4B$233.4B
$234.4B$235.2B2A$236.BABA$237.A3B$238.4B$239.4B$240.4B$241.4B$242.4B$
243.4B$244.4B$245.4B$246.4B$247.4B$248.4B$249.4B$250.4B$251.4B$252.4B
$253.4B$254.4B$255.4B$256.4B$257.4B$258.B3A$259.A3B$260.A3B$261.4B$
262.4B$263.4B$264.4B$265.4B$266.4B$267.4B$268.4B$269.4B$270.4B$271.4B
$272.4B$273.4B$274.4B$275.4B$276.4B$277.4B$278.4B$279.4B$280.2B2A$
281.BABA$282.A3B$283.4B$284.4B$285.4B$286.4B$287.4B$288.4B$289.4B$
290.4B$291.4B$292.4B$293.4B$294.4B$295.4B$296.4B$297.4B$298.4B$299.4B
$300.4B$301.4B$302.4B$303.B3A$304.A3B$305.A3B$306.4B$307.4B$308.4B$
309.4B$310.4B$311.4B$312.4B$313.4B$314.4B$315.4B$316.4B$317.4B$318.4B
$319.4B$320.4B$321.4B$322.4B$323.4B$324.4B$325.2B2A$326.BABA$327.A3B$
328.3B$329.2B$330.B!

You just have to imagine that the reflector/constructor also has another glider output, and that it can handle gliders coming in twice as fast, and that the non-slow collisions at the top actually build a copy of the structure...!

Slow salvos are horribly inefficient, because they artifically reduce the available search space to something that modern computers can handle. We only use them because... they reduce the search space to something that modern computers can handle.

Still Has To Be Small, But It Can Be Weird
A smallest-possible universal constructor can't be terribly complicated, because it has to be able to build a copy of itself with absolute-minimal programming. Random-sample possible weirdness: the Plato's-Cave best might turn out to be something like the above, but with one glider output and one *WSS output. Might save one semi-Snark that way.

Probably that would restrict the spaceship's direction of travel in the wrong way -- diagonal is probably cheapest -- so don't take this specific suggestion seriously.

Still, the Plato's-Cave smallest self-constructing spaceship is very likely to be totally surprising in some way or other: it will just barely happen to work, using a totally impractical corner of the search space. So maybe we should cut the estimate in half or more again -- say 1,000 to 2,499 ON cells.

Creeping doubts
Then again, if it's just something that barely happens to work, is it really a universal-constructor-based spaceship, or has it crossed the line into a particularly weird kind of elementary spaceship? It's not "universal" unless somebody can program the constructor to do other things besides construct itself... and I'm not sure it counts if we have to go back to Plato's Cave to get each new recipe, or if the recipe for anything other than the spaceship would be thousands of times longer...!

1000 cells would mean less than 200 gliders in the recipe. That seems insanely optimistic, no matter what the mechanism is. Let's go a bit higher than that, and maybe say that 2,500 cells is the "good estimate/guess" we're looking for.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » July 16th, 2017, 5:49 pm

Doesn't this thing I found count as a RRO?:
x = 115, y = 35, rule = B3/S23-a4i5i6ci
108b2o$107b2o$107b2o$107b2o$109bo$o3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo17b3o$4o36b4o36b4o
18bo$b3o37b3o37b3o18bobo$103b2o2$5bob2o36bob2o36bob2o$5bo2bo36bo2bo36b
o2bo$5b3o37b3o37b3o10$67b3o37b3o$66bo2bo36bo2bo$66b2obo36b2obo2$90b2o$
71b3o16bobo18b3o$71b4o17bo18b4o$70bo3bo15b3o17bo3bo$85bo$86b2o$86b2o$
86b2o$85b2o!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » July 16th, 2017, 6:14 pm

drc wrote:Doesn't this thing I found count as a RRO?:
x = 115, y = 35, rule = B3/S23-a4i5i6ci
108b2o$107b2o$107b2o$107b2o$109bo$o3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo17b3o$4o36b4o36b4o
18bo$b3o37b3o37b3o18bobo$103b2o2$5bob2o36bob2o36bob2o$5bo2bo36bo2bo36b
o2bo$5b3o37b3o37b3o10$67b3o37b3o$66bo2bo36bo2bo$66b2obo36b2obo2$90b2o$
71b3o16bobo18b3o$71b4o17bo18b4o$70bo3bo15b3o17bo3bo$85bo$86b2o$86b2o$
86b2o$85b2o!


Yes, thank you so much! That's now the best reflectorless rotating oscillator (4x, as opposed to 2x) in any isotropic 2-state Moore-neighbourhood cellular automaton. Well done!

There's famously a RRO by Dean Hickerson in LtL, which Dave Greene noted has a maximum 12x multiplicity.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » July 16th, 2017, 8:12 pm

calcyman wrote:Yes, thank you so much! That's now the best reflectorless rotating oscillator (4x, as opposed to 2x) in any isotropic 2-state Moore-neighbourhood cellular automaton. Well done!

Thanks! I posted about it in the accidental discoveries thread but I thought I would bring it back up directly.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Gamedziner » July 16th, 2017, 8:23 pm

Does a symmetric GoE exist? (orthogonal, diagonal, and/or rotational symmetries)
A base-2 ruler for all your measuring needs in CGOL:
32b32o$16b16o16b16o$8b8o8b8o8b8o8b8o$4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o$2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o$bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » July 16th, 2017, 8:27 pm

Gamedziner wrote:Does a symmetric GoE exist? (orthogonal, diagonal, and/or rotational symmetries)

1. Take a garden of Eden
2. Mirror it until you have a symmetric shape

There's also the bottom row of this image
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Gamedziner » July 17th, 2017, 7:31 am

drc wrote:
Gamedziner wrote:Does a symmetric GoE exist? (orthogonal, diagonal, and/or rotational symmetries)

1. Take a garden of Eden
2. Mirror it until you have a symmetric shape

There's also the bottom row of this image


Thanks :D
A base-2 ruler for all your measuring needs in CGOL:
32b32o$16b16o16b16o$8b8o8b8o8b8o8b8o$4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o4b4o$2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o2b2o$bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby WaywardHorizons » July 17th, 2017, 5:45 pm

This may seem stupid or is listed on some wiki page that I don't know the name of, but how do I get the code for a pattern in Golly? There seems to be no clear way to export it, and what export function there is exports this:
[M2] (golly 2.8)
#R 01245678/3/8:P180,180
1 0 1 0 1
2 0 0 0 1
1 1 1 0 0
1 1 0 1 0
2 0 0 3 4
3 0 0 2 5
2 0 0 1 3
2 0 0 4 0
3 0 0 7 8
1 0 1 0 0
2 0 10 0 0
1 1 0 0 0
2 3 12 0 0
3 11 13 0 0
2 10 3 0 0
2 12 0 0 0
3 15 16 0 0
4 6 9 14 17


Whereas others post something like this:
x = 8, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
2o$o$o$bo4b2o$6bo!


How do I get to the latter format?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby muzik » July 17th, 2017, 5:51 pm

It's surprisingly simple: when you copy a pattern, it actually goes into the same clipboard you use for text, so you can copy patterns directly from Golly as text.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » July 17th, 2017, 8:59 pm

WaywardHorizons wrote:This may seem stupid or is listed on some wiki page that I don't know the name of, but how do I get the code for a pattern in Golly? There seems to be no clear way to export it...

muzik wrote:It's surprisingly simple: when you copy a pattern, it actually goes into the same clipboard you use for text, so you can copy patterns directly from Golly as text.

So to be unnecessarily specific -- select a rectangular area, or Edit > Select All, then Edit > Copy or Ctrl+C.

The format you quoted was macrocell format. That's what you get in Golly if you File > Save when the current algorithm is set to Hashlife or RuleLoader. Set the algo to QuickLife -- Control > Set Algorithm > QuickLife -- and then when you save a pattern, find it in the Show Files pane and right-click on it, and it will be in the RLE format you're looking for.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » July 17th, 2017, 9:31 pm

drc wrote:
Gamedziner wrote:Does a symmetric GoE exist? (orthogonal, diagonal, and/or rotational symmetries)

1. Take a garden of Eden
2. Mirror it until you have a symmetric shape

There's also the bottom row of this image

The LifeWiki says in at least two places that the fourfold rotationally symmetric Garden of Eden 6 is the smallest known Garden of Eden. Which just shows how far out of date the LifeWiki can get sometimes. That was true for four years until Steven Eker started generating smaller asymmetrical ones, none of which have had their pictures taken for LifeWiki articles yet. (They're all in the list in the first link above, though.)

The symmetric GoE #6 was the product of an exhaustive search with an SAT solver, if I remember right -- fourfold symmetry really cuts down on the size of the search space.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Rhombic » July 19th, 2017, 2:45 pm

What is the usual speed of apgmera and why might it be running slower than expected on my computer?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Apple Bottom » July 20th, 2017, 6:25 am

Rhombic wrote:What is the usual speed of apgmera and why might it be running slower than expected on my computer?


For B3/S23/C1? I'm getting ~1450 soups/sec per hyperthreading core on a Core i7-3770K (supporting AVX1 but not AVX2). Other rules can be much faster -- or much slower.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Rhombic » July 20th, 2017, 9:11 am

Apple Bottom wrote:
Rhombic wrote:What is the usual speed of apgmera and why might it be running slower than expected on my computer?


For B3/S23/C1? I'm getting ~1450 soups/sec per hyperthreading core on a Core i7-3770K (supporting AVX1 but not AVX2). Other rules can be much faster -- or much slower.


I'm on a Core i7, and I ran apgmera with -p 4, but the rate at which hauls are submitted seems to be much higher for other people.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » July 20th, 2017, 9:18 am

Rhombic wrote:I'm on a Core i7, and I ran apgmera with -p 4, but the rate at which hauls are submitted seems to be much higher for other people.

Others use multiple computers, like calcyman uses upwards of 20(probably innacurate because I forgot how much). I use one and occasionally run 2-3 instances.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Apple Bottom » July 20th, 2017, 9:19 am

Rhombic wrote:I'm on a Core i7, and I ran apgmera with -p 4, but the rate at which hauls are submitted seems to be much higher for other people.


I've never tried parallel searching -- I just run several instances in parallel (makes it easier to shut down some when I need the CPU for other things).

Keep in mind you can run one searcher instance per hyperthreading core -- my CPU has four physical cores, for instance, but since it supports hyperthreading I can run up to 8 searchers at the same time. It doesn't quite double the overall search speed, but it provides a significant boost, and I can get about 18-20 billion objects per day that way (at an average of 21.8 objects/soup).

People who're submitting *much* more than that are probably using multiple computers.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby drc » July 21st, 2017, 1:07 am

Why are symmetric objects generally more interesting?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby gmc_nxtman » July 21st, 2017, 1:26 am

Define "interesting".
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