danny wrote:Can a universal GoE working in all outer totalistic rules exist?
muzik wrote:danny wrote:I assume you're excluding the rules b1357s1357, b1357s02468, b02468s1357 and b02468s02468?
danny wrote:muzik wrote:danny wrote:I assume you're excluding the rules b1357s1357, b1357s02468, b02468s1357 and b02468s02468?
No, because those produce 4 copies of each pattern at the least.
x = 17, y = 7, rule = B1357/S02468
b3o3b3o2b5o$o3bobo3bobo$o5bo3bobo$ob2o2bo3bob4o$o3bobo3bobo$o3bobo3bob
o$b3o3b3o2b5o!
x = 39, y = 40, rule = B1357/S02468
ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob
2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob
2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2o
b2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob
2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob
2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6o
b2ob2ob2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obo
bo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob
2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b
2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo$b2ob2ob2ob2o2bo4bo4bo2bob2ob2ob2obo$b2ob2ob2ob2o7bo
4b2obob2ob2ob2obo$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2obob
3obo2b2o5b2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob2o2bo4bo4bo2bob2ob2ob2obo$2ob2ob2ob2o
3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob
2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob
2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob
2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo$ob
2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2o
b2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o
b2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob
2obo$ob2ob2ob2ob2ob3ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2ob2o3bo3b2obobo2bob
2ob2ob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2ob3o2b2o5b6ob2ob2ob2obo!
Ian07 wrote:When exactly was the glider discovered? The Glider article a quote from Genius at Play which says it was found in the fall of 1969 while investigating the R-pentomino, but just before the quote claims 1970. Other articles also support the 1970 date; the wiki pages for block and blinker both say they were found in 1970, and therefore the glider would have to have been discovered afterwards since they were already present in the R-pentomino's evolution.
It sounded right to me. But wouldn't it be much easier if the definitions were the other way around? To me "Garden" suggests a bounded region, whereas "orphan" just means "has no parents". Maybe we should just declare that they've swapped, especially since everyone talks about finding GoEs when they mean finding orphans.dvgrn wrote:-- Did I say all that right? It's so easy to get tripped up on definitions with these GoEs/orphans...
This makes sense. Since Gardner's article was published in October 1970, we have no way of knowing which patterns (except the glider) were found in 1969.Apple Bottom wrote:I did not want to go against long-established consensus that patterns only known to members of Conway's gang before 1970 would be considered to have been "discovered" with the publication of Gardner's first article.
dvgrn wrote:It's certainly easy enough to describe the infinite background pattern that would constitute (most of) the parent for any finite pattern you might choose in an XOR rule. It just wouldn't be a finite parent.
-- Did I say all that right? It's so easy to get tripped up on definitions with these GoEs/orphans...
Macbi wrote:Apple Bottom wrote:I did not want to go against long-established consensus that patterns only known to members of Conway's gang before 1970 would be considered to have been "discovered" with the publication of Gardner's first article.
This makes sense. Since Gardner's article was published in October 1970, we have no way of knowing which patterns (except the glider) were found in 1969.
dvgrn wrote:Macbi wrote:Apple Bottom wrote:I did not want to go against long-established consensus that patterns only known to members of Conway's gang before 1970 would be considered to have been "discovered" with the publication of Gardner's first article.
This makes sense. Since Gardner's article was published in October 1970, we have no way of knowing which patterns (except the glider) were found in 1969.
Yeah, I certainly worried a little bit that creating a "1969" category for pattern discoveries was opening an unnecessarily messy can of worms. If anyone wants to change the date back to 1970, it's fine by me.
This morning I added a "historical note" to the Glider article, which should explain the 1969/1970 ambiguity, whichever date is given in the infobox.
x = 108, y = 44, rule = B3/S23
81b3o$82bo2$41bobo$41b3o29b2o$73b2o$5o3$20b4o$21bo51b2o6b2o15bo$51b2o
20bo8b2o14bo7bo$52b2o19bo24bo7b2o$53bo5$77b4o2$29bo$29b2o72b2o$30bo$
30bo2$5b4o$5bo$104bo$44b2o$44bo$43b2o5$24bo$23b3o32b2o$24bo33b2o$58bo
3$11b3o26bo$12bo27bo$12bo27b3o!
Bill sent me an e-mail from Dick Esterle saying that Siobhan Roberts wrote:I'm afraid I tried to pin down Life dates and Conway was wary of doing so, and indeed could not himself, hence I told it like it was in the book. I'd say circa 1967/68. RKG might be able to provide something more specific.
calcyman wrote:We know that the R-pentomino dates from before the glider (because the latter was discovered by simulating the R-pentomino). Also, I recall that the polyominoes were investigated in increasing order of size, and that the R was the last pentomino to be resolved. This implies that the block, blinker, beehive, traffic lights, and loaf were known by 1969...
x = 17, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
b2ob2obo5b2o$11b4obo$2bob3o2bo2b3o$bo3b2o4b2o$o2bo2bob2o3b4o$bob2obo5b
o2b2o$2b2o4bobo2b3o$bo3b5ob2obobo$2bo5bob2o$4bob2o2bobobo!
Saka wrote:Has an SMS or SSS breeder been constructed?
What about it in other rules?
x = 19, y = 10, rule = LifeHistory
7.D3.D$6.DCD.DCD$5.DC2AD2ACD$3.2DAC2.A2.CA2D$3.AC.C2.D2.C.CA$.2D.C.AD
.A.DA.C.2D$.2C.A2.A3.A2.A.2C$.CA.2D7.2D.AC$DC2.2A7.2A2.CD$2A15.2A!
#C [[ STOP 2 ]]
Hunting wrote:Saka wrote:Has an SMS or SSS breeder been constructed?
What about it in other rules?
I think I've seen one before. However I can't find the link.
x = 63, y = 40, rule = LifeHistory
4.A.2A$4.2A2.A$7.A2.A$2.5A.2A.A2.A$.A4.A.A2.4A$.A2.A3.3A6.A$2A.A.3A2.
A2.5A38.2A$3.A6.A.A5.2A35.A2.A2.2A$2A.A.3A2.A2.A.2A.A.A34.A.A.A2.A$A
2.A.A2.A.2A.A.A.A2.A31.2A.A.A2.2A$2.2A2.A2.A3.A.A4.A.2A29.A.A.A$4.2A
4.4A.2A2.2A2.A29.A.A2.4A$4.A3.A.A6.A3.A28.2A.A.A5.A$5.4A.A.5A.3A3.A
24.A.A.A2.3A$9.A.A4.A.A2.4A24.A.A.A4.A$7.A3.A2.A3.A.A6.A18.2A.A.A2.4A
$7.2A2.A.A.4A.A2.5A19.A.A.A$10.2A.A6.A.A5.2A3.2A12.A.A2.4A$13.A.4A.A
2.A.2A.A.A.A.A9.2A.A.A5.A$13.A.A2.A.2A.A.A.A2.A.A10.A.A.A2.3A$12.2A2.
A2.A3.A.A4.A.2A9.A.A.A4.A$14.2A4.4A.2A2.2A4.A4.2A.A.A2.4A$14.A3.A.A6.
A3.4A.A4.A.A.A$15.4A.A.5A.3A5.A4.A.A2.4A$19.A.A4.A.A2.6A.2A.A.A5.A$
17.A3.A2.A3.A.A6.A.A.A2.3A$17.2A2.A.A.4A.A2.2A2.A.A.A4.A$20.2A.A6.A.A
2.A.A.A2.4A$23.A.4A.A2.A.A.A.A$23.A.A2.A.2A.A.A.A2.4A$20.A.2A2.A2.A3.
A.A.A5.A$20.2A2.2A4.AC2A.A2.3A$23.A2.4A3.D.A4.A$24.A5.2ACA.C4A$25.3A
2.A2.A$27.A3.A2.6A$28.3A5.A2.A2$28.2A.A$28.A.2A!
#C A glider hits a still-life, sending a 2c/3 signal along a diagonal.
#C Another glider on the same path causes the pattern to decay.
#C Dean Hickerson, 4/11/97
x = 132, y = 133, rule = LifeHistory
.A$2.A6.A$3A5.A.A$8.A.A$7.2A2.2A$4.2A3.A.A$4.A.4A2.A$10.A.A$4.A.5A.2A
3.A$2.3A.A8.3A$.A4.A.7A$2.3A.A.A6.A$4.A.A.A2.5A$7.2A.A7.A$10.A2.6A$
10.A.A$9.2A.A2.6A$12.A.A6.A$12.A.A2.5A$13.2A.A7.A$16.A2.6A$16.A.A$15.
2A.A2.6A$18.A.A6.A$18.A.A2.5A$19.2A.A7.A$22.A2.6A$22.A.A$21.2A.A2.6A$
24.A.A6.A$24.A.A2.5A$25.2A.A7.A$28.A2.6A$28.A.A$27.2A.A2.6A$30.A.A6.A
$30.A.A2.5A$31.2A.A7.A$34.A2.6A$34.A.A$33.2A.A2.6A$36.A.A6.A$36.A.A2.
5A$37.2A.A7.A$40.A2.6A$40.A.A$39.2A.A2.6A$42.A.A6.A$42.A.A2.5A$43.2A.
A7.A$46.A2.6A$46.A.A$45.2A.A2.6A$48.A.A6.A$48.A.A2.5A$49.2A.A7.A$52.A
2.6A$52.A.A$51.2A.A2.6A$54.A.A6.A$54.A.A2.5A$55.2A.A7.A$58.A2.6A$58.A
.A$57.2A.A2.6A$60.A.A6.A$60.A.A2.5A$61.2A.A7.A$64.A2.6A$64.A.A$63.2A.
A2.6A$66.A.A6.A$66.A.A2.5A$67.2A.A7.A$70.A2.6A$70.A.A$69.2A.A2.6A$72.
A.A6.A$72.A.A2.5A$73.2A.A7.A$76.A2.6A$76.A.A$75.2A.A2.6A$78.A.A6.A$
78.A.A2.5A$79.2A.A7.A$82.A2.6A$82.A.A$81.2A.A2.6A$84.A.A6.A$84.A.A2.
5A$85.2A.A7.A$88.A2.6A$88.A.A$87.2A.A2.6A$90.A.A6.A$90.A.A2.5A$91.2A.
A7.A$94.A2.6A$94.A.A$93.2A.A2.6A$96.A.A6.A$96.A.A2.5A$97.2A.A7.A$100.
A2.6A$100.A.A$99.2A.A2.6A$102.A.A6.A$102.A.A2.5A$103.2A.A7.A$106.A2.
6A$106.A.A$105.2A.A2.6A$108.A.A6.A$108.A.A2.5A$109.2A.A7.A$112.A2.6A$
112.A.A$111.2A.A2.6A$114.A.A6.A$114.A.A2.5A$115.2A.A7.A$118.A2.6A$
118.A.A8.A$117.2A.A2.7A$120.A.A$120.A.A2.5A$121.2A.A4.A$124.A2.A$124.
A.A.4A$123.2A.A4.A$127.3A$129.2A!
Moosey wrote:Are there any glider eaters consisting entirely of blocks that meet these conditions?...
4) Having a universal constructor rebuilding the blocks is not a valid solution, for the sake of the argument, unless they are unusually fast (no more than 1000 gens recovery time)
x = 55, y = 66, rule = LifeHistory
21.2A$21.2A3$19.2A$19.2A3$8.2C$8.2C$4.2A$4.2A7$17.2A$17.2A29.2A$48.2A
3$35.2C$35.2C2$45.2C$45.2C3$.A8.2A$.2A7.2A$A.A28$48.2C$48.2C3$53.2C$
53.2C!
dvgrn wrote:Moosey wrote:Are there any glider eaters consisting entirely of blocks that meet these conditions?...
4) Having a universal constructor rebuilding the blocks is not a valid solution, for the sake of the argument, unless they are unusually fast (no more than 1000 gens recovery time)
No Blockic glider eaters or glider-to-anything converters are known, given your restriction #4.
Even without restriction #4, nobody has actually built anything that fills the bill, and I don't think anybody knows a way to do it that wouldn't also violate your restriction #2.
The problem is that we don't have enough blocks-only Herschel conduits to make a universal set. We have R64 and B60 and whatever-that-other-elementary-conduit-is, but they don't connect to each other at all, let alone in a way that would allow for splitting off signals and repairing circuits that only work once.
Works-once Blockic conduits are actually pretty common. For example, here's a glider-to-Herschel converter based on Paul Callahan's receiver:Code: Select allx = 55, y = 66, rule = LifeHistory
partial blockic conduit
If we had enough Blockic conduits to make a universal set (including a signal splitter) then we could use this to get a Herschel, and then produce gliders to rebuild the five blocks that go missing when the glider comes in -- and then we'd have a Blockic glider eater.
Really we wouldn't do it that way, though. It would probably be better to hunt for a Blockic constellation that produced a clean output Herschel or two, and then use hypothetical Blockic splitters to rebuild that constellation directly. But none of this can work until someone finds more Blockic conduits.
Moosey wrote:What about one where restriction 2 is removed?
Or what if, instead, beehives, and loaves were also allowed?
dvgrn wrote:Moosey wrote:What about one where restriction 2 is removed?
Or what if, instead, beehives, and loaves were also allowed?
Makes no difference. You have to either lift restriction #4 or also allow boats (instead of beehives) -- that gives you access to the sidesnagger, so you have a glider eater that answers your original question.
To get a universal set of Herschel conduits, even blocks, boats, beehives and loaves aren't enough -- you really need fishhook eaters to get anywhere. But of course that would trivially answer your eater question with no need for any crazy complicated bait or staged recovery mechanisms.
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