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Thread for basic questions

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » January 29th, 2019, 5:08 pm

Moosey wrote:Okay, so if restrictions 2 and 4 are removed... What's the smallest universal constructor that would do that?

It's fairly painful. There's a description by calcyman "(where x = (0,0))" that probably comes pretty close. You can get a vague sense of how big something like this would be, by looking at half of the Caterloopillar.

The Caterloopillar uses loaves to store data instead of blocks, but maybe we could figure something out with blocks instead, where the blocks get regenerated on the same spot and a glider is produced. The Caterloopillar stores enough data to build seeds for one small salvo of *WSSes, whereas we might need multiple parallel lines of blocks and "reader" *WSS salvos to make the slow glider salvos that we'll need to bend a construction arm around a couple of elbows and rebuild the *WSS salvo seeds that started the whole thing off.

-- I'm not really too happy with my mental picture of how this will work, when I get down into the details. There's probably something slightly simpler available these days. But it's definitely Not Small, and not trivial to actually build it... and when you're all done, the darn thing is just an eater. (!)
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby testitemqlstudop » January 29th, 2019, 6:09 pm

What's the quickest way to convert RLE to a .&o format? (Please don't say "by hand")
(i.e.
.oo
oo.
.o.
)
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Macbi » January 29th, 2019, 6:17 pm

testitemqlstudop wrote:What's the quickest way to convert RLE to a .&o format? (Please don't say "by hand")
(i.e.
.oo
oo.
.o.
)

Here's a python script to turn the selected pattern in Golly into .o format:
import golly as g

x_0, y_0, width, height = g.getselrect()
grid = [["." for x in xrange(width)] for y in xrange(height)]
cells = g.getcells([x_0, y_0, width, height])
for i in xrange(len(cells)/2):
    grid[cells[2*i + 1] - y_0][cells[2*i] - x_0] = "o"
with open("dot_o_pattern", "w") as output_file:
    output_file.write("\n".join("".join(row) for row in grid) + "\n")


It saves the result in a file called "dot_o_pattern".
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » January 29th, 2019, 9:12 pm

Macbi wrote:Here's a python script to turn the selected pattern in Golly into .o format...

Here's another one, if you'd rather clobber the clipboard instead of going hunting for a file in whatever Golly Python thinks is the current directory:

import golly as g
r = g.getselrect()
s=""
for y in range(r[3]):
  for x in range(r[2]):
    s+="o" if g.getcell(x+r[0],y+r[1]) > 0 else "."
  s+="\n"
g.setclipstr(s)
g.show("Copied ASCII format pattern to clipboard.")

It doesn't error out when used on multistate patterns, though that may not be a good thing. Unless it's adjusted a little it will do very strange things with LifeViewer history states, for example.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby testitemqlstudop » January 30th, 2019, 8:39 pm

Thanks for the programs!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby danny » January 31st, 2019, 9:39 pm

Do any current search programs use neural networks?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby testitemqlstudop » February 1st, 2019, 12:36 pm

danny wrote:Do any current search programs use neural networks?


Ummm.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Moosey » February 1st, 2019, 1:11 pm

Sort of similar to dani’s question:
Are there any evolutionary algorithms for finding spaceships? The best partial(s) are the parents of a slightly mutated generation?
My rules:
They can be found here

Also, the tree game
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » February 1st, 2019, 1:25 pm

Moosey wrote:Sort of similar to dani’s question:
Are there any evolutionary algorithms for finding spaceships? The best partial(s) are the parents of a slightly mutated generation?

Genetic algorithms get tried every half-decade or so, but so far they haven't produced any useful results, for fairly obvious reasons. See this thread for a previous question along these general lines.

I edited in a little history about Alan Wechsler's experiments with trying to find things via mutation and recombination, back in 1994. It seemed like it might be made to work for still lifes (but other approaches worked much better). As soon as you get to p2 and above, tiny changes tend to have either a huge effect, or zero effect.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Moosey » February 1st, 2019, 1:54 pm

dvgrn wrote:
Moosey wrote:Sort of similar to dani’s question:
Are there any evolutionary algorithms for finding spaceships? The best partial(s) are the parents of a slightly mutated generation?

Genetic algorithms get tried every half-decade or so, but so far they haven't produced any useful results, for fairly obvious reasons. See this thread for a previous question along these general lines.

I edited in a little history about Alan Wechsler's experiments with trying to find things via mutation and recombination, back in 1994. It seemed like it might be made to work for still lifes (but other approaches worked much better). As soon as you get to p2 and above, tiny changes tend to have either a huge effect, or zero effect.

Alright, so here’s a different question: are there any programs that try to put together a supplied head and a supplied tail together exhaustively?
My rules:
They can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » February 1st, 2019, 2:26 pm

Moosey wrote:Alright, so here’s a different question: are there any programs that try to put together a supplied head and a supplied tail together exhaustively?

For putting together a "current list of known heads" and "current list of known tails", see Ikpx#Meet-in-the-middle. Not quite sure what "supplied" means in this context.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Moosey » February 1st, 2019, 3:56 pm

dvgrn wrote:
Moosey wrote:Alright, so here’s a different question: are there any programs that try to put together a supplied head and a supplied tail together exhaustively?

For putting together a "current list of known heads" and "current list of known tails", see Ikpx#Meet-in-the-middle. Not quite sure what "supplied" means in this context.

You give the algorithm a head and a tail for the same speed and see if it can complete the ship.
My rules:
They can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby 77topaz » February 1st, 2019, 6:06 pm

Moosey wrote:You give the algorithm a head and a tail for the same speed and see if it can complete the ship.


Yeah, ikpx can do that, and I think calcyman/apgoucher has used precisely that approach before.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Hunting » February 3rd, 2019, 12:12 am

How is Spaghetti Monster notable?
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#C Favorite Gun. Found by me.
x = 4, y = 6, rule = B2e3i4at/S1c23cijn4a
o2bo$4o3$4o$o2bo!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Saka » February 3rd, 2019, 12:26 am

Hunting wrote:How is Spaghetti Monster notable?

It's the first elementary 3c/7o spaceship
If you're the person that uploaded to Sakagolue illegally, please PM me.
x = 17, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
b2ob2obo5b2o$11b4obo$2bob3o2bo2b3o$bo3b2o4b2o$o2bo2bob2o3b4o$bob2obo5b
o2b2o$2b2o4bobo2b3o$bo3b5ob2obobo$2bo5bob2o$4bob2o2bobobo!

(Check gen 2)
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Hunting » February 3rd, 2019, 12:39 am

Saka wrote:
Hunting wrote:How is Spaghetti Monster notable?

It's the first elementary 3c/7o spaceship

Oops didn't remind that
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#C Favorite Gun. Found by me.
x = 4, y = 6, rule = B2e3i4at/S1c23cijn4a
o2bo$4o3$4o$o2bo!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Moosey » February 3rd, 2019, 9:28 am

I am assuming that the apg in apgsearch stands for both “ash pattern generator” and Adam P. Goucher. Is this correct?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby AforAmpere » February 3rd, 2019, 11:15 am

Are there any totalistic higher range rules that can be emulated at by alternating isotropic non-totalistic rules at step 2?
I'm fairly sure this one can't, but I don't know if there are any that can:
x = 1, y = 1, rule = R2,C0,M1,S1..1,B1..1,NM
o!


EDIT, if we could keep the B2c transition away, it would be possible:
@RULE 2-1-1-0-0_TEST

@TABLE


n_states:3
neighborhood:Moore
symmetries:rotate4reflect

var a={0,1,2}
var b={0,1,2}
var c={0,1,2}
var d={0,1,2}
var e={0,1,2}
var f={0,1,2}
var g={0,1,2}
var h={0,1,2}

#0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2
0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,2
0,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,2
0,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,1,2
0,1,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,2
0,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,2
0,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,1,2

1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2

0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1
0,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,1
#0,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,1
#0,2,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,1
0,2,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,1
#0,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,1
0,0,2,0,2,0,0,0,0,1
0,0,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,1
#0,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,1
0,2,2,0,2,0,0,0,0,1
#0,2,2,0,0,2,0,0,0,1
0,2,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,1
0,2,2,0,0,0,0,2,0,1
#0,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,2,1
0,2,0,2,0,2,0,0,0,1
#0,2,0,2,0,0,2,0,0,1
0,2,0,0,2,0,2,0,0,1
#0,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,0,1

#2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1
#2,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1
2,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,1
#2,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,1
#2,2,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,1
#2,2,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,1
#2,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,1
2,0,2,0,2,0,0,0,0,1
2,0,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,0,0,0,0,1
#2,2,2,0,0,2,0,0,0,1
2,2,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,1
#2,2,2,0,0,0,0,2,0,1
2,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,2,1
2,2,0,2,0,2,0,0,0,1
#2,2,0,2,0,0,2,0,0,1
2,2,0,0,2,0,2,0,0,1
2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,1
2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0,0,1
2,2,2,2,0,0,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,2,0,0,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,0,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,0,0,2,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,0,0,0,2,1
2,2,2,0,0,2,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,0,0,2,0,2,0,1
2,2,2,0,0,2,0,0,2,1
#2,2,2,0,0,0,2,2,0,1
2,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,1
2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,1
2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0,0,1
2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,2,2,0,0,2,0,1
2,2,2,2,2,0,0,0,2,1
2,2,2,2,0,2,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,2,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,2,0,2,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,1
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0,1
2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,1
2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,0,1
2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,1
2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,0,1
2,2,2,0,2,2,2,0,2,1
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,1
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,1
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1


1,a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,0
2,a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,0
Things to work on:
- Find a (7,1)c/8 ship in a Non-totalistic rule (someone please search the rules)
- Find a C/10 in JustFriends
- Find a C/10 in Day and Night
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Moosey » February 3rd, 2019, 10:03 pm

Are there any still lives besides the HB that, when hit by a glider, translate and make >= a glider?
Perhaps they break up into a bunch of gliders that synthesize it again?

Bonus:
Can we engineer a SL that becomes a spaceship when him by a glider-- that is, it displaces and puts the glider back? (A push ship)
My rules:
They can be found here

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Hunting » February 3rd, 2019, 11:35 pm

Moosey wrote:Are there any still lives besides the HB that, when hit by a glider, translate and make >= a glider?
Perhaps they break up into a bunch of gliders that synthesize it again?


Things like this?
x = 196, y = 197, rule = B3/S23
155b2o$155b2o4$153b2o$153b2o2$153b2o$153b2o6$42b2o$42b2o$148b2o$148b2o
$49b2o$49b2o10b2o$61b2o4b2o32b2o43b2ob2o$67b2o10b2o20b2o43b2ob2o$79b2o
$49b2o$49b2o45b2o52b2o$67b2o27b2o52b2o$41b2o3b2o19b2o75b2o$24b2o15b2o
3b2o96b2o$12b2o10b2o$12b2o3$24b2o$24b2o2$52b2o103b2o16b2ob2o$52b2o10b
2o87b2o2b2o16b2ob2o$64b2o87b2o28b2o$183b2o2$43b2o3b2o2b2o$10b2o3b2o26b
2o3b2o2b2o91b2o$10b2o3b2o128b2o$104b2o$104b2o2$180b2o$116b2o62b2o$31b
2o3b2o66b2o10b2o51b2o$31b2o3b2o66b2o63b2o2$77b2o$44b2o31b2o101b2o$11b
2o31b2o134b2o$11b2o49b2o$62b2o22b2o$86b2o2$67b2o$67b2o$32b2o$32b2o$14b
2o3b2o$14b2o3b2o$83b2o$83b2o2$45b2o$45b2o8b2ob2o$55b2ob2o35b2o$95b2o2$
54b2o$54b2o126b2o$15b2o69b2o94b2o$15b2o69b2o18b2o$106b2o2$187b2o$87b2o
98b2o$87b2o$119b2o$119b2o65b2ob2o$44b2o140b2ob2o$44b2o64b2o$110b2o$
126b2o57b2o$125bo2bo56b2o$31b2o43b2o48b2o$31b2o4b2o37b2o$37b2o3$116bo$
115bobo$82b2o31bobo$82b2o32bo4b2o11bo$121b2o10bobo$133bobo$134bo2$81b
2o$81b2o$46b2o$46b2o75b2o48b2o3b2o$122bo2bo47b2o3b2o$123b2o6b2o$130bo
2bo$131b2o2$52b2o6b2o$52b2o6b2o$66b2o16b2o47b2o$66b2o16b2o10b2o35b2o7b
o$70b2o24b2o16b2o25bobo$66b2o2b2o41bo2bo24bobo$5b2o44b2o9b2o2b2o46b2o
26bo34b2o$5b2o3b2o39b2o9b2o20b2o38b2o51b2o$10b2o72b2o38b2o3$104bo61b2o
$103bobo60b2o$82b2o19bobo49b2o$82b2o2b2o16bo17bo11b2o19b2o$2o84b2o33bo
bo9bo2bo$2o88b2o29bobo10b2o$90b2o21b2o7bo$113b2o42b2o$157b2o3$111b2o$
110bo2bo$111b2o$124b2o3b2o12b2o$124b2o3b2o12b2o8$38b2o$38b2o2$128b2o9b
2o3b2o$50b2o76b2o9b2o3b2o$38b2o10b2o$38b2o$60b2o$60b2o$54b2o$18b2o34b
2o$18b2o2b2o26b2o66b2o3b2o$22b2o2b2o22b2o2b2o62b2o3b2o$26b2o26b2o2b2o$
58b2o$19b2o106b2o$19b2o106b2o3$64b2o73b2o$64b2o61b2o10b2o$70b2o55b2o$
70b2o$119b2o$119b2o$66b2ob2o$66b2ob2o3$68b2o$68b2o3$193b3o$193bo$194bo
7$56b2o$56b2o3$55b2o$55b2o2$59b2o$54b2o3b2o$54b2o!
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x = 4, y = 6, rule = B2e3i4at/S1c23cijn4a
o2bo$4o3$4o$o2bo!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby 77topaz » February 3rd, 2019, 11:38 pm

No, he's looking for single still lifes that are reproduced with a displacement after reacting with one input glider, with at least two output gliders also being produced, like the half-bakery reaction. I imagine the odds of finding any more such reactions are quite low, since it's likely there have already been searches for similar reactions after the serendipity of the half-bakery reaction was noticed.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Hunting » February 4th, 2019, 12:03 am

If I had a rule where I have 2-barreled gun, but have no stable eater. So how do I cleanup the extra barrel to make 1-barreled gun?
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x = 4, y = 6, rule = B2e3i4at/S1c23cijn4a
o2bo$4o3$4o$o2bo!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby toroidalet » February 4th, 2019, 12:12 am

Hunting wrote:If I had a rule where I have 2-barreled gun, but have no stable eater. So how do I cleanup the extra barrel to make 1-barreled gun?


If you can find a 2-spaceship synthesis of a spaceship, you can do this:
x = 54, y = 61, rule = B2e3aciny4ajyz5-cekn/S1c2cei3-in4-iqw6ae
26b2o$28bo$22bob2ob2o$22bobo2b2o$22b5o$23bo$24bo22$3bo$2bobo$2b2obo$3b
o2bo$3o3bo42b5o$5o42bo3b3o$47bo2bo$48bob2o$49bobo$50bo17$28b2o$30bo$
27bo3bo$27bob2obo$27b2ob2o$27b2o$27b2o!

Otherwise, you might have to make do with something more like this:
x = 81, y = 56, rule = B2e3aciny4ajyz5-cekn/S1c2cei3-in4-iqw6ae
27b2o46b2o$27b2o46b2o$24b2ob2o46b2ob2o$23bob2obo46bob2obo$24bo3bo46bo
3bo$25bo52bo$26b2o48b2o17$3bo$2bobo$2b2obo$3bo2bo$3o3bo44b5o$5o44bo3b
3o$49bo2bo$50bob2o$51bobo$52bo17$28b2o$30bo$27bo3bo$27bob2obo$27b2ob2o
$27b2o$27b2o!

If you're really desperate, you could do this:
x = 123, y = 56, rule = B2e3aciny4ajyz5-cekn/S1c2cei3-in4-iqw6ae
94b2o$94b2o$94b2ob2o$94bob2obo$94bo3bo$97bo$95b2o17$119bo$3b2o113bobo$
2bo114bob2o$bo3bo110bo2bo$ob2obo61b5o44bo3b3o$b2ob2o61b3o3bo44b5o$4b2o
64bo2bo$4b2o63b2obo$69bobo$70bo17$93b2o$92bo$91bo3bo$90bob2obo$91b2ob
2o$94b2o$94b2o!

Obviously you would shrink them, but this is just a demonstration.
(the gun is from here)

Moosey wrote:Are there any still lives besides the HB that, when hit by a glider, translate and make >= a glider?
Perhaps they break up into a bunch of gliders that synthesize it again?

Bonus:
Can we engineer a SL that becomes a spaceship when him by a glider-- that is, it displaces and puts the glider back? (A push ship)


It depends on what you mean by "still life"; a stable universal constructor with a suitable tape could certainly do that.
If that is too trivial, there's probably something where a glider strikes a still life, producing a reverse caber tosser and a long fuse that burns really far out and produces the cordership and glider at the right distance to construct the whole thing by slow salvo.

Of course, at that point, you might just want to consider taking a push-ship from a different cellular automaton and implementing it as 0E0P metacells (EDIT: Whoops, I forgot that 0E0P metacells simulating still lives would actually be oscillators. Still, a spaceship hitting an oscillator as a push- or pull- ship would certainly be close enough.).
Last edited by toroidalet on February 4th, 2019, 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
x = 11, y = 5, rule = B2ck3-ij5n78/S01e2ei3-k5ai
8b2o$2o3b2o$bo4bo3bo$2bo2b2o$o7bo!

(Check Gen 2)
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Moosey » February 4th, 2019, 9:47 am

77topaz wrote:No, he's looking for single still lifes that are reproduced with a displacement after reacting with one input glider, with at least two output gliders also being produced, like the half-bakery reaction. I imagine the odds of finding any more such reactions are quite low, since it's likely there have already been searches for similar reactions after the serendipity of the half-bakery reaction was noticed.

What I meant was if an enormous still life/pseudo still life/quasi still life/constellation could be engineered to de something like that.
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They can be found here

Also, the tree game
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby danny » February 7th, 2019, 12:12 pm

Is Sir Robin synthesisable? Is there a way to disprove glider syntheses besides checking GoE?

I was thinking something along the lines of 'there would need to be too many gliders in one place at the final step, and no ash could last that long.
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