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The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.

Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby simsim314 » February 6th, 2015, 6:29 pm

Sokwe wrote:Only one of them seems to work in this case


I've tried to use B->Pi but there seems to be lack of Pi->Pi interactions. Anyway I couldn't find anything useful.

Sokwe wrote:giving a new F325 conduit (repeat time 287)


Congrats! I must admit that the B->H seems to be a bit awkward, nevertheless these are great news! It's a new conduit that seems to be useful (we'll need to wait for dvgrn for the final verdict).

Also nice job on replacing the eater3.

Sokwe wrote:The best I can do is convert 3/4 of one to a glider


Seems like a good start. Now you can use three snarks to collide glider with the blinker. Although not "clean" but might be considered part of the "extended" conduits (conduits that use snarks to redirect gliders to fix them, and could be useful although rarely).

Anyway the point was just the need of exploring additional options.

---

And thx for pointing to the updated basic conduit list. I've used the same thread, but earlier message with partial list of conduits.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Extrementhusiast » February 6th, 2015, 7:28 pm

Just something that I was messing around with:
x = 50, y = 70, rule = B3/S23
28b2o7b2o$12b2o7b2o5bo2b2ob2o2bo$11bobo7b2o6b2obobob2o$9b3obobo14bo5bo
$8bo5b2o14bob3obo$8b2o21bo3bo$41b2o$31bo3bo4b4o$31bo3bo3bob2ob2obo$44b
2o2bo$o31b3o4b2o2b2o2b3o$3o36b4obo2b3o$2bo35bo2bo3bo2bo$2bo34b3o2bob4o
$37b3o2b2o2b2o$38bo2b2o$39bob2ob2obo$43b4o$44b2o2$37b2o$37b2o2$40b2o$
40bobo$23b2o17bo$23bo18b2o$24b3o11b2o$26bo11bobo$40bo$40b2o3$26bo$25bo
bo$25b2o12$40b2o$40b2o12$16bo$16bobo20b2o$16b3o20bo$18bo10b2o3b2o4b3o$
27bo2bo4bo6bo$27b3o5bobo$36b2o$27b3o$27bo2bo$29b2o!

It's messy, awkward, and has very little choice involved.

Also, a surprising converter:
x = 22, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
9b3o$9bobo$2b2o5bobo6b2o$bobo14bobo$bo18bo$2o18b2o!


While we're on the subject of pis, here are some other first catalysts:
x = 111, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
3o22b3o21b3o26b3o21b3o$2bo24bo23bo28bo23bo$3o22b3o21b3o26b3o21b3o4$b2o
$b2o24b2o$27b2o19b2o25b2o30b2o$49bo26bo30bobo$46b3o24b3o33bo$46bo26bo
35b2o!

This also reminds me that we only have one good x-to-pi converter, with the only other one having catalysts too close to do much use. (However, it does at least have some use, as seen in the first pattern.)

Also also, this:
x = 7, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
4b2o$4b2o6$3b3o$3bo2bo$4b3o11$2b2o$3bo$3o$o!

The block can be shifted one cell left for the same effect.

In addition, a transparent version of H-to-G #2:
x = 33, y = 23, rule = B3/S23
28bo$27bobo$27bobo$26b2ob3o$32bo$26b2ob3o$26b2obo6$2b2o$bobo$bo$2o5$
11b3o$12bo$12b3o!
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Sokwe » February 6th, 2015, 7:48 pm

Extrementhusiast wrote:Just something that I was messing around with...

Have you tried replacing the sparkers using Bellman? It looks like it might be possible.

In our old Herschel conduit investigations, I don't remember anyone acknowledging this R240 conduit:
x = 51, y = 53, rule = B3/S23
11b2o$12bo14b2o$12bobo12b2o9b2o$13b2o23b2o2$9b2o36b2o$9bo37b2o$10b3o$
12bo2$47b2o$47b2o$6b2o3b2o$6bobobobo$8bobo$7b2ob2o2$37b2o$37b2o3$48b3o
$48bo$47b2o11$20b2o$20bo$18bobo$18b2o6$o$obo$3o$2bo2$12b2o$12b2o2b2o$
16bobo$18bo$18b2o!
-Matthias Merzenich
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby MikeP » February 6th, 2015, 10:01 pm

simsim314 wrote:As for LOM take even snark and remove the "late" eater and you will get LOM. Now if we had more knowledge about LOM catalysts options we might had already snark based G->H.


I explored this bit of search space quite thoroughly in my snark hunting. I seem to remember finding a few explosions that could have been perturbed further, but I don't have detailed records.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Sphenocorona » February 6th, 2015, 10:47 pm

This QB conduit attempt (shown here starting from the Pi->QB converter) yields a near-miss MWSS, but it would collide with the conduit even if it escaped the reaction:
x = 29, y = 33, rule = LifeHistory
.A9.A6.A$.3A5.3A5.A.A$4.A3.A8.A.A$3.2A3.2A6.2A.3A$22.A$16.2A.3A$16.2A
.A4$27.2C$27.C$25.C.C$25.2C14$9.3A$9.A.A$2.2A5.A.A6.2A$.A.A14.A.A$.A
18.A$2A18.2A!
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Kazyan » February 6th, 2015, 11:32 pm

Hot off the presses. Third one has some eaters added; they move the reaction over to the right, but a search could do something interesting with another configuration.

x = 141, y = 47, rule = LifeHistory
39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F29.A10.
A$39.F59.F29.3A6.3A$39.F59.F32.A4.A$39.F59.F31.2A4.2A$39.F59.F$39.F
59.F$A38.F20.A38.F20.A$3A36.F20.3A36.F20.3A$3.A35.F23.A35.F23.A$2.2A
35.F22.2A35.F22.2A$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F
59.F$.A37.F21.A37.F21.A$.A.A35.F21.A.A35.F21.A.A$.3A35.F21.3A35.F21.
3A$3.A35.F23.A35.F23.A$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$
17.2C20.F59.F$8.C2.C5.C.C19.F28.C2.C27.F31.C$8.4C7.C19.F28.4C27.F27.C
2.C.C.2C$14.C4.2C18.F34.C24.F27.4C.C.C.C$10.5C24.F30.5C24.F32.C2.2C$
10.C28.F30.C28.F29.4C$12.C26.F32.C26.F29.C$11.2C26.F31.2C26.F30.C$39.
F59.F29.2C$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F59.F$39.F
59.F!
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby kiho park » February 7th, 2015, 12:07 am

It convert a Herschel to Herschel and R-Pentomino
x = 98, y = 75, rule = LifeHistory
55.2A$54.B2AB$54.3B$55.B$53.5B$53.B3D2B$53.2BD3B$53.2B3DB$53.6B$53.6B
$53.6B$53.5B$52.6B$53.6B$52.7B$52.6B$52.6B$52.6B$51.8B$52.8B$51.9B$
51.9B$51.10B$51.5B2A3B9.2A10.B$51.5B2A4B9.A8.5B$51.11B9.A.AB4.6B$51.
4BD7BA.A6.2AB.B2.6B$53.B3D4B2.2A.A7.13B$39.A13.D2B2D2B6.A8.12B$39.3A
11.5B8.2A5.14B$42.A10.5B9.2B3.16B$30.2A9.2A9.6B8.6B.15B4.3B$31.A5.3B.
5B.3B2.8B6.22B.7B$31.A.AB.4B3.20B2.22B.B2A5B$32.2AB.27B2.23BA2BA5B$
34.55B2A6B$34.62B$34.51B.6B.2B$34.46B.2B2.8B.B$17.2B13.47B7.6B.B2A$
17.3B12.43B15.B3.A.A$17.4B10.2A13B2.9B.B3.B3.10B19.2A$18.4B9.2AB.12B
2.7B11.9B$19.4B9.B.13B.9B8.11B$7.2A3.2A6.4B11.11B3.7B9.2A3.2B3D2B$6.B
2AB.B2AB6.4B10.10B4.7B10.A3.2BD4B$7.2B2.3B3.B4.4B8.11B3.9B6.3A4.B3D4B
.2B$8.3B.3B.4B3.4B6.11B5.7B7.A6.12B$2A5.7B.13B4.13B6.3B16.14B$.A5.23B
.16B4.5B14.15B$.A.AB.19B.8B.4B2A7B6.2A15.14B$2.2AB.33B2A7B6.A19.11B$
4.45B6.3A15.13B2.2B$4.33BD12B7.A14.19B$4.33B2D10B21.B.21B$5.33B2D7B
19.2A.2A22B$7.31BD10B18.A.A.B.21B$5.32BD12B15.A.A.A.A23B$5.2A3.26B3.
12B14.2A3.2A.B.19B$6.A3.20B4.B6.10B23.22B$3.3A6.15B7.2A7.7B24.21B2D$
3.A8.11B12.A9.2B2.BA22.23B2D$11.13B10.A14.A.A19.A24BD$10.15B9.2A14.2A
17.3A2.7B.14B$10.16B42.A5.7B3.7B.2B$10.17B41.2A4.7B4.5B$10.16B48.5B6.
4B$12.14B46.2AB.2B7.4B$11.4B.2B2A6B45.A.AB10.B2AB$10.4B2.2B2A6B45.A
14.2A$9.4B2.11B44.2A$8.4B4.2B3D4B$7.4B5.3BD4B$6.4B7.2B3D2B$6.3B8.7B!


Edit : 1H to 2H
x = 136, y = 75, rule = LifeHistory
55.2A$54.B2AB$54.3B$55.B$53.5B$53.B3D2B$53.2BD3B$53.2B3DB$53.6B$53.6B
$53.6B$53.5B$52.6B$53.6B$52.7B$52.6B$52.6B$52.6B$51.8B$52.8B$51.9B$
51.9B$51.10B$51.5B2A3B9.2A10.B$51.5B2A4B9.A8.5B$51.11B9.A.AB4.6B$51.
4BD7BA.A6.2AB.B2.6B$53.B3D4B2.2A.A7.13B$39.A13.D2B2D2B6.A8.12B$39.3A
11.5B8.2A5.14B$42.A10.5B9.2B3.16B$30.2A9.2A9.6B8.6B.15B4.3B$31.A5.3B.
5B.3B2.8B6.22B.7B$31.A.AB.4B3.20B2.22B.B2A5B$32.2AB.27B2.23BA2BA5B$
34.55B2A6B$34.62B$34.51B.6B.2B$34.46B.2B2.8B.B$17.2B13.47B7.6B.B2A$
17.3B12.43B15.B3.A.A$17.4B10.2A13B2.9B.B3.B3.10B19.2A$18.4B9.2AB.12B
2.7B11.9B$19.4B9.B.13B.9B8.11B$7.2A3.2A6.4B11.11B3.7B9.2A3.2B3D2B$6.B
2AB.B2AB6.4B10.10B4.7B10.A3.2BD4B$7.2B2.3B3.B4.4B8.11B3.9B6.3A4.B3D4B
.2B$8.3B.3B.4B3.4B6.11B5.7B7.A6.12B$2A5.7B.13B4.13B6.3B16.14B$.A5.23B
.16B4.5B14.15B23.2A$.A.AB.19B.8B.4B2A7B6.2A15.14B24.A$2.2AB.33B2A7B6.
A19.11B23.A$4.45B6.3A15.13B2.2B18.2A$4.33BD12B7.A14.19B8.2A8.B$4.33B
2D10B21.B.21B6.A.A7.3B$5.33B2D7B19.2A.2A22B7.AB6.6B$7.31BD10B18.A.A.B
.21B5.2B3.B2.10B$5.32BD12B15.A.A.A.A23B.B2.19B3.2B2.6B$5.2A3.26B3.12B
14.2A3.2A.B.19B.12BD3B2A15BD3B$6.A3.20B4.B6.10B23.33B2D2B2A15BDBDB.2B
$3.3A6.15B7.2A7.7B24.21B2D11B2D18B3D3B2A$3.A8.11B12.A9.2B2.BA22.23B2D
10BD21BDB.B2A$11.13B10.A14.A.A19.A24BD10BD24B2.B$10.15B9.2A14.2A17.3A
2.7B.17B.4B5.13B.B$10.16B42.A5.7B3.7B.12B5.7B.B$10.17B41.2A4.7B4.5B4.
8B$10.16B48.5B6.4B5.6B$12.14B46.2AB.2B7.4B6.4B$11.4B.2B2A6B45.A.AB10.
B2AB$10.4B2.2B2A6B45.A14.2A$9.4B2.11B44.2A$8.4B4.2B3D4B$7.4B5.3BD4B$
6.4B7.2B3D2B$6.3B8.7B!
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby simsim314 » February 7th, 2015, 9:17 am

not sure how useful, and yet LOM -> G

x = 14, y = 17, rule = B3/S23
13bo$11b3o$10bo$10b2o3$4b2o$2o2bobo$2o2bobo$5b2o4$7b2o$8bo$7bo$7b2o!


EDIT I've finished to run exhausted bellman search for Kazyan catalyst, in hope to find anything that will remove the residual block, without success. Nevertheless there are pretty interesting eaters there, that might be of interest. See attached file.

For those who don't have LifeBellman rule:

@RULE LifeBellman

@TABLE

# state 0:  OFF
# state 1:  ON
# state 2:  History ON now OFF
# state 3:  Catalyst ON
# state 4:  Catalyst OFF
# state 5:  Catalyst UNKNOWN

n_states:6
neighborhood:Moore
symmetries:rotate8

var a={0,2,4,5}
var b={0,2,4,5}
var c={0,2,4,5}
var d={0,2,4,5}
var e={0,2,4,5}
var f={0,2,4,5}
var g={3}
var h={0,1,2,5}
var i={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var j={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var k={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var l={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var m={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var n={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var o={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var p={0,1,2,3,4,5}

var i1={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var j1={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var k1={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var l1={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var m1={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var n1={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var o1={0,1,2,3,4,5}
var p1={0,1,2,3,4,5}

var q={1,3}
var R={1,3}
var S={1,3}
var T={1,3}
var u={3,4}

# Catalyst-doesn't change with unknown neighbour
3,5,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,3
5,3,i1,j1,k1,l1,m1,n1,o1,5
0,5,3,j1,k1,l1,m1,n1,o1,0
0,5,j1,3,k1,l1,m1,n1,o1,0
0,5,j1,k1,3,l1,m1,n1,o1,0
0,5,j1,k1,l1,3,m1,n1,o1,0
0,5,j1,k1,l1,m1,3,n1,o1,0

# Catalyst-neighbour birth
4,R,S,T,a,b,c,d,e,3
4,R,S,a,T,b,c,d,e,3
4,R,S,a,b,T,c,d,e,3
4,R,S,a,b,c,T,d,e,3
4,R,S,a,b,c,d,T,e,3
4,R,a,S,b,T,c,d,e,3
4,R,a,S,b,c,T,d,e,3

# Catalyst-neighbour survival
g,R,S,T,a,b,c,d,e,g
g,R,S,a,T,b,c,d,e,g
g,R,S,a,b,T,c,d,e,g
g,R,S,a,b,c,T,d,e,g
g,R,S,a,b,c,d,T,e,g
g,R,a,S,b,T,c,d,e,g
g,R,a,S,b,c,T,d,e,g

# normal 3-neighbour birth
h,R,S,T,a,b,c,d,e,1
h,R,S,a,T,b,c,d,e,1
h,R,S,a,b,T,c,d,e,1
h,R,S,a,b,c,T,d,e,1
h,R,S,a,b,c,d,T,e,1
h,R,a,S,b,T,c,d,e,1
h,R,a,S,b,c,T,d,e,1

# 2-neighbour survival
q,R,S,a,b,c,d,e,f,q
q,R,a,S,b,c,d,e,f,q
q,R,a,b,S,c,d,e,f,q
q,R,a,b,c,S,d,e,f,q

# ON states 3 and 5 go to history state 4 if they don't survive
g,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,4

# Otherwise ON states die and become the history state
q,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,2

@COLORS

1    255  255    255
2    0    0  0
3  0  191  225
4  255    0    0
5  120  255    0


EDIT2 Here is TL on the edge (just for those who wonder how often TL can appear on edge of the interaction):

x = 20, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
2bo$3o$obo$o$18b2o$18b2o8$12b2o$12b2o!


EDIT3 @MikeP thx for the feedback. Actually the LOM destroying the block pretty quickly, did you manage to restore the block using LOM itself? or the LOM catalyst was pretty early on and avoided touching the block?

EDIT4 @Extrementhusiast Congrats on the new H->G. The glider internal state is actually new (in the output direction). So nicely done!
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Last edited by simsim314 on February 7th, 2015, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Extrementhusiast » February 7th, 2015, 2:16 pm

A partial Fx191 from the second pattern:
x = 51, y = 31, rule = B3/S23
13b2o$13b2o3$o$3o$3bo$2b2o7$bo$bobo$b3o$3bo46bo$48b3o$31b2o15bo$31b2o
15bo3$20bo$8bo2bo7bobo$8b4o7b2o$14bo13b2o$10b5o13bo$10bo18bo$12bo15b2o
$11b2o!

However, there might be some way to turn the FNG of the output Herschel into a block at the right location.

EDIT: Two more partial conduits, R102 and R133:
x = 116, y = 27, rule = B3/S23
14bo$13bobo$13bobo$11b3ob2o$10bo$11b3ob2o$13bob2o5$103b2o$95b2o6b2o$2b
o92bo$2bo93bo$3o26b2o64b2o$o28bo$30b3o$32bo70b3o8b2o$104bo9b2o$104b3o$
76bo15b2o$76bo15b2o$15b3o7b2o47b3o$16bo8bobo46bo$16b3o8bo$27b2o!

Perhaps something could be done with the glider in the first one.
Last edited by Extrementhusiast on February 7th, 2015, 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby dvgrn » February 7th, 2015, 3:32 pm

Sokwe wrote:In our old Herschel conduit investigations, I don't remember anyone acknowledging this R240 conduit...

Nope, I've got an R246 in my current Hersrch folder, but no R240. I'll roll it in with whatever other new conduits show up.

simsim314 wrote:I've finished to run exhausted bellman search for Kazyan catalyst, in hope to find anything that will remove the residual block, without success. Nevertheless there are pretty interesting eaters there, that might be of interest.

Very nice! A number of the rows toward the bottom resolve to a Spartan ship+eater combination, which also came up regularly in Brice Due's catalyst searches from August 2006 -- he eventually added the combination to ptbsearch:

x = 29, y = 22, rule = LifeHistory
12.2A$11.A2.A9.A$11.2A.A7.3A$12.2A7.A$21.2A$15.3A$7.A7.A$8.A2.A3.2A.A
$11.A3.A2.A$2.2A2.A.A4.2A$.A.A9.A4.A$.A$2A9.2A.A2.2A$11.A3.A2.A$12.A
4.A$14.3A5.2A$21.A.A$21.2A$25.2A$25.A.A$27.A$27.2A!

Here's Brice's revised ptbsearch catalyst list, including the ship+eater:

zz!zz!
*z!*z!
z*!z*!
zz!**!
**!zz!
.*.!*.z!.*.!
.*.!*.*!.z.!
.*.!z.*!.*.!
.z.!*.*!.*.!
.*.!*.z!**.!
**.!*.*!.z.!
.**!z.*!.*.!
.z.!*.*!.**!
**.!*.z!.*.!
.z.!*.*!**.!
.*.!z.*!.**!
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dvgrn
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Sokwe » February 7th, 2015, 7:46 pm

dvgrn wrote:Here's Brice's revised ptbsearch catalyst list, including the ship+eater

That list includes a lot of redundancies which would slow down the search (e.g. multiple stator variants of eater 2 and the tub-with-tail eater). Here is an earlier post of mine about adding catalysts to ptbsearch if anyone is interested.

Edit: Possibly new H->G:
x = 34, y = 38, rule = B3/S23
27bo$26bobo$27bo8$32bo$31bobo$31bobo$32bo3$30b2o$5b2o23bo$6bo21bobo$6b
obo19b2o$7b2o7$7bo$7bobo$7b3o$9bo2$20bo$2b2o13bobobo2bo$3bo11b3obob4o$
3o11bo5bo$o13b2o6bo$21b2o!


Edit 2:
simsim314 wrote:I've finished to run exhausted bellman search for Kazyan catalyst...

There are certainly some interesting results there. What were your input parameters?
-Matthias Merzenich
Sokwe
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby simsim314 » February 8th, 2015, 2:42 am

Sokwe wrote:There are certainly some interesting results there. What were your input parameters?


Here is bellman input:

#S max-active 10
#S repair-interval 10
#S stable-interval 10
#S max-live 30
#S last-encounter 40
#S first-encounter 2
#P 0 0
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@Sokwe congrats on the new H->G. It's not unique in a sense of internal glider state, but it's definitely new.

x = 98, y = 60, rule = LifeHistory
61.D$60.2DB$60.DBDB$61.4B$62.4B$63.4B$3.D60.4B$2.2DB60.4B$2.DBDB60.4B
$3.4B60.4B$4.4B60.4B$5.4B60.4B$6.4B60.4B$7.4B60.4B$8.4B60.4B$9.4B60.
4B$10.4B60.4B$11.4B60.4B$12.4B5.B54.4B$13.4B3.3B54.4B$14.4B2.4B3.A50.
4B$15.4B.5B.A.A50.4B$16.10B.A52.4B$17.10B54.4B$18.9B55.4B$19.7B57.4B$
19.8B57.4B$17.11B57.4B$16.12B58.4B$16.12B58.4B$17.11B3.BA53.5B$18.13B
ABA51.9B$18.13BABA51.9B$17.13B.BA52.9B$16.13B55.10B$14.14B55.12B$12.
13B5.2A41.2A8.13B$5.2A5.12B6.A43.A9.11B$6.A6.12B2.BA.A43.A.AB4.12B$6.
A.AB5.11B.B2A45.2AB.15B$7.2AB.3B.13B49.17B$9.19B49.17B$9.18B51.17B.B$
10.17B50.19B2A$9.17B49.19B.B2A$7.18B48.19B4.B$5.20B48.2BC16B$5.2BC17B
47.3BCBC4B.9B$4.3BCBC4B.9B49.2B3C4B2.7B$5.2B3C4B2.6B50.5BC4B2.7B$4.5B
C4B3.5B49.10B4.6B$4.9B5.B.3B47.4B10.7B$2.4B11.3BA3B45.4B12.6B$2.2A13.
A.A.A2.A43.4B13.7B$3.A11.3A.A.4A43.3B14.6B$3A11.A5.A45.4B15.5B$A13.2A
6.A43.2A16.6B$21.2A44.A16.4B$64.3A17.2B2AB$64.A21.2A!


I guess in the hunting spectrum, H->G is pretty low priority, unless we find some edge shooter and preferably fast edge shooter with low amount of smoke. And yet there is not so many known H->G so expanding the list is not a bad idea as well.
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simsim314
 
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby simsim314 » February 8th, 2015, 4:34 pm

Here is new conduit found using bellman (I guess it's Lx231):

x = 69, y = 49, rule = LifeHistory
21.2A$21.2A$7.2A19.2A$8.A10.4A4.A2.A$8.A.AB7.A2.AB3.A.A.A$9.2AB.3B4.
2B.2B.2A.A2.A$11.7B3.4B.A3.A.A$11.16B3A.A$12.15B2.A$11.16B2A2.A$9.18B
.A.2A$7.18B3.A$7.2BC15B2.2A$6.3BCBC4B.7B$7.2B3C4B2.B2DBDB$6.5BC4B2.2B
3D2B34.B2A$5.10B4.2BD4B31.2BA2BAB$4.4B10.9B30.3B2A3B$4.3B12.9B27.12B$
2.4B5.2A.2A.12B25.14B$2.2A5.A2.A.A.A8B.4B25.13B$3.A5.2A.A.BA2B.6B2.4B
24.14B$3A9.A2.2B2.7B2.4B22.15B$A11.2A.B3.7B3.4B21.14B$10.2A2.A.A2.8B.
6B20.13B$9.A2.A2.2A2.16B19.B3D4B.3B$10.2A7.17B18.2BD4B$19.18B17.2B3D
2B$20.18B16.6B$23.11B.4B14.7B$22.13B.4B5.2A5.8B$21.20B3.B2AB3.8B$19.B
.21B3.3B2.9B$15.2A.2A23B3.B2.4B.6B$16.A.A.B.30B.7B$14.A.A.A.A38B$14.
2A3.2A.B.35B$23.32B2A3B$23.32B2A2B$22.36B$20.A35B$18.3A2.7B.22B2.2B$
17.A5.7B3.7B.8B.2B2.B2AB$17.2A4.7B4.5B5.6B5.2A$23.5B6.4B8.4B$21.2AB.
2B7.4B7.B2A2B$20.A.AB10.B2AB8.2A$20.A14.2A$19.2A!


It uses the first natural occurring B in evolution of H, and bellman was used just to find the catalyst that removed the mess.

Unfortunately it's too tight so the only thing that can work with this very fast H->B is pretty slow B->H.


---

For reference here are bellman scripts that helped to find it:

This one is for the H->B.

#S max-active 7
#S repair-interval 7
#S stable-interval 5
#S max-live 40
#S last-encounter 7
#S first-encounter 6
#P 0 0
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#F 28 14 24
***..
.*...
.***.
.....


This one for the eater:

#S max-active 4
#S repair-interval 4
#S stable-interval 5
#S max-live 15
#S last-encounter 12
#S first-encounter 1
#P 0 0
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User avatar
simsim314
 
Posts: 1702
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Extrementhusiast » February 8th, 2015, 5:14 pm

simsim314 wrote:Here is new conduit found using bellman (I guess it's Lx231):

RLE


It uses the first natural occurring B in evolution of H, and bellman was used just to find the catalyst that removed the mess.


So, an R64 followed by a Bx167?
x = 219, y = 65, rule = LifeHistory
143.B$143.2B$143.3B$143.4B$144.4B$145.4B$146.4B$147.4B$143.B4.4B$143.
2B4.4B$143.3B4.4B$143.4B4.4B$144.4B4.4B$145.4B4.4B$146.4B4.4B$147.4B
4.4B$21.2A125.4B4.4B8.2A$21.2A126.4B4.4B6.B2A2B3.2A$7.2A19.2A120.4B4.
4B6.4B2.B2AB$8.A10.4A4.A2.A120.4B4.4B.B.6B3.2B$8.A.AB7.A2.AB3.A.A.A
120.4B4.12B2.2B$9.2AB.3B4.2B.2B.2A.A2.A120.4B4.12B2A2B$11.7B3.4B.A3.A
.A121.4B3.12B2A3B.B$11.16B3A.A123.4B2.18B2A$12.15B2.A126.4B2.15B.B2A$
11.16B2A2.A125.19B3.B$9.18B.A.2A126.18B$7.18B3.A128.18B$7.2BC15B2.2A
128.2BC15B$6.3BCBC4B.7B132.3BCBC4B.7B$7.2B3C4B2.B2DBDB133.2B3C4B2.6B$
6.5BC4B2.2B3D2B34.B2A94.5BC5B.7B34.B2A$5.10B4.2BD4B31.2BA2BAB91.13B.
7B31.2BA2BAB$4.4B10.9B30.3B2A3B89.4B7.12B30.3B2A3B$4.3B12.9B27.12B86.
4B9.12B27.12B$2.4B5.2A.2A.12B25.14B84.4B11.12B25.14B$2.2A5.A2.A.A.A8B
.4B25.13B83.4B13.7B.4B25.13B$3.A5.2A.A.BA2B.6B2.4B24.14B81.4B15.6B2.
4B24.14B$3A9.A2.2B2.2B3D2B2.4B22.15B80.4B16.2B3D2B2.4B22.15B$A11.2A.B
3.2BD4B3.4B21.14B80.4B17.2BD4B3.4B21.14B$10.2A2.A.A2.B3D4B.6B20.13B
80.4B18.B3D4B.6B20.13B$9.A2.A2.2A2.16B19.B3D4B.3B80.4B19.16B19.B3D4B.
3B$10.2A7.17B18.2BD4B84.4B20.17B18.2BD4B$19.18B17.2B3D2B83.4B21.18B
17.2B3D2B$20.18B16.6B83.4B23.18B16.6B$23.11B.4B14.7B83.3B27.11B.4B14.
7B$22.13B.4B5.2A5.8B83.2B27.13B.4B5.2A5.8B$21.20B3.B2AB3.8B84.B27.20B
3.B2AB3.8B$19.B.21B3.3B2.9B110.B.21B3.3B2.9B$15.2A.2A23B3.B2.4B.6B
105.2A.2A23B3.B2.4B.6B$16.A.A.B.30B.7B106.A.A.B.30B.7B$14.A.A.A.A38B
105.A.A.A.A38B$14.2A3.2A.B.35B105.2A3.2A.B.35B$23.32B2A3B113.32B2A3B$
23.32B2A2B114.32B2A2B$22.36B114.36B$20.A35B114.A35B$18.3A2.7B.22B2.2B
111.3A2.7B.22B2.2B$17.A5.7B3.7B.8B.2B2.B2AB109.A5.7B3.7B.8B.2B2.B2AB$
17.2A4.7B4.5B5.6B5.2A110.2A4.7B4.5B5.6B5.2A$23.5B6.4B8.4B123.5B6.4B8.
4B$21.2AB.2B7.4B7.B2A2B121.2AB.2B7.4B7.B2A2B$20.A.AB10.B2AB8.2A122.A.
AB10.B2AB8.2A$20.A14.2A133.A14.2A$19.2A148.2A!
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby simsim314 » February 8th, 2015, 5:33 pm

Extrementhusiast wrote:So, an R64 followed by a Bx167?


Woops :) Anyway good bellman practice.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby dvgrn » February 8th, 2015, 6:09 pm

simsim314 wrote:I guess in the hunting spectrum, H->G is pretty low priority, unless we find some edge shooter and preferably fast edge shooter with low amount of smoke. And yet there is not so many known H->G so expanding the list is not a bad idea as well.

Lots of H-to-G converters will show up as an inevitable byproduct of any serious search for Herschel conduits. Seems to me they will be worth collecting for a long while yet -- let's say, until we have a collection containing at least one fairly compact H-to-G for each output direction of glider and each possible output lane (within a reasonable range) for each direction.

Sokwe's latest converter, oddly enough, produces a glider on the same lane as a known H-to-G, newlane 36:

#C H-to-G#13 (HtoG13NWpath37.rle), with Sokwe's new H-to-G
x = 57, y = 107, rule = B3/S23
21b2o$13bo7b2o31b2o$13b3o38bobo$16bo38b2o$15b2o2$7b2o$8bo$8bobo$9b2o2$
53b2o$53bo$54b3o$56bo2$9bo$9bobo$9b3o$11bo19b2o$32bo$21b2o6b3o$21b2o2b
2o2bo$25bobobo$2b2o23bob2o$3bo23bo$3o23b2o$o42$29bo$28bobo$29bo8$34bo$
33bobo$33bobo$34bo3$32b2o$32bo$30bobo$30b2o8$9bo$9bobo$9b3o$11bo2$22bo
$4b2o13bobobo2bo$5bo11b3obob4o$2b3o11bo5bo$2bo13b2o6bo$23b2o!

The new converter has a different timing and parity, though, so it could be part of a compact timing-adjustment system. Ideally I suppose that if we eventually collected so many H-to-Gs that we had timings of T, T+1, T+2, ... T+7 available, all on the same lane, that would suddenly be a really useful collection.

When I get a chance, I'll probably start a new thread specifically to collect H-to-Gs and H-to-G{n}s (glider pairs), and see if we can get all the recent discoveries together in one place.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Freywa » February 8th, 2015, 7:08 pm

dvgrn wrote:When I get a chance, I'll probably start a new thread specifically to collect H-to-Gs and H-to-G{n}s (glider pairs), and see if we can get all the recent discoveries together in one place.
But wait, nobody has talked about G-to-H converters. If we could pull off a fast one from this new area and combine it with a H-to-G we could have a colour-changing reflector, certainly not small enough to claim Playle's prizes but still smaller than the current record holder nonetheless. This is just my wild idea.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby dvgrn » February 8th, 2015, 7:58 pm

Freywa wrote:But wait, nobody has talked about G-to-H converters. If we could pull off a fast one from this new area and combine it with a H-to-G we could have a colour-changing reflector, certainly not small enough to claim Playle's prizes but still smaller than the current record holder nonetheless.

Yes. As simsim314 pointed out recently, a compact G-to-H would change everything very quickly, even more than the discovery of the Snark did. Finding a small stable G-to-H is likely to take some serious determination, and a lot of practice running catgl/ptbsearch/bellman/some-new-search-utility.

Here is the report for the most recent search for a G-to-H (or a G-to-G). It wasn't anything like a thorough search, but that's the problem with G-to-H searches -- they never are thorough. They tend to be much more speculative, simply because there doesn't seem to be any such thing as a catalyst that can convert a glider into any kind of active reaction, separate from the catalyst and without any damage to it. Instead, the only thing that's worked so far is to sacrifice a "bait" still life and then hope to find a compact catalyst that restores the bait as quickly as possible.

I still hold out some hope for a dr-type reaction, a signal triggered by a glider along the lines of Dean Hickerson's slow eater and "fizzle" reactions, passing through some larger still life similar to a 2c/3 wire, and then extruding a glider at the end of the wire and recovering its original configuration. But that seems a very tall order, probably well out of reach of even a distributed search with current search utilities.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Sokwe » February 8th, 2015, 8:29 pm

dvgrn wrote:I've got an R246 in my current Hersrch folder, but no R240.

I was looking back at the old topic, and I noticed a completely different R240 at the bottom of this post by Guam.

Edit: The R240 I posted above was posted by Guam here.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Kazyan » February 8th, 2015, 9:29 pm

I tried Bellmanizing the classic G-to-H that requires a kickback to delete a beehive, with no success. Perhaps we should take a look at the transparent block reaction used in the rectifier and see if we can get a Herschel out of that?
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby dvgrn » February 8th, 2015, 9:47 pm

Kazyan wrote:I tried Bellmanizing the classic G-to-H that requires a kickback to delete a beehive, with no success. Perhaps we should take a look at the transparent block reaction used in the rectifier and see if we can get a Herschel out of that?

A fresh look with Bellman-colored glasses on is a good idea, for all kinds of old and new technology. Calcyman posted a likely variant of the rectifier a while back, for exactly this purpose:

x = 33, y = 37, rule = B3/S23
4b2obo$4bob2o2$5b5o$2o2bo4bo$o2bo2bo$bobob2o$2obo5bo$3bo4bobo$3b2o2bo
2bo$8b2o9$16b2o$16b2o8$6b2o22b2o$7bo21bo2bo$4b3o23b2o$4bo$8b2o$8b2o$
27b3o$27bo$28bo!

There's a small spark at T=98 along the south edge, and then another dying spark that breaks into new territory briefly at T=140. I would think Bellman would be more likely to be able to make one of these sparks into a glider, though; there's not much room to get a Herschel out.

Extracting a Herschel is certainly a possibility, but a much more speculative one: you could try adding bait still lifes until you get a good active reaction, and then ask Bellman to find something that restores the bait... No idea if this is really even vaguely plausible, but current G-to-H's all have multiple transparent catalysts, so that's the trick that seems to work.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Extrementhusiast » February 8th, 2015, 11:57 pm

I was actually thinking of starting with a pi, as a glider can convert five different still lifes to it cleanly, thus allowing for five different bait still lifes.
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Kazyan » February 9th, 2015, 3:24 am

Extrementhusiast wrote:I was actually thinking of starting with a pi, as a glider can convert five different still lifes to it cleanly, thus allowing for five different bait still lifes.


And since a Pi is symmetrical, there's actually ten different bait possibilities. Great idea.

By the way, do we have a stable conduit that does something like this yet? I've seen oscillating conduits that do this, but not stable ones.

x = 14, y = 13, rule = B3/S23
12bo$11bobo$12bo7$o$obo$3o$2bo!
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby flipper77 » February 9th, 2015, 3:46 am

Kazyan wrote:By the way, do we have a stable conduit that does something like this yet? I've seen oscillating conduits that do this, but not stable ones.

Well, there's this conduit from sawtooth6b included with Golly, but you probably meant other ones, right?
x = 16, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
b3o$bo$3o7$14b2o$14b2o4$9b2o$9b2o$13b2o$13b2o3$7b2o$7b2o!
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Re: The Hunting of the New Herschel Conduits

Postby Sokwe » February 9th, 2015, 3:58 am

Kazyan wrote:do we have a stable conduit that does something like this yet?

That's essentially what simsim314's conduit, here, does. As Extrementhusiast pointed out, this particular combination is really no better than R64 followed by a Bx167. Currently, I don't think any of the other B->X conduits work with this particular H->B. It might be possible to get something out of this transparent block reaction:
x = 32, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
21b2o$21b2o$7b2o17b2o$8bo10b4o4bo2bo$8bobo8bo2bo4bobobo$9b2o15b2obobo$
26bo2b2o$27b2o$29b2o$27b2o2bo$28bob2o$28bo$9bo17b2o$9bobo$9b3o$11bo4$
15b2o$2b2o11b2o$3bo$3o$o!

Finding smaller still lifes that accomplish the same H->B conversion would always help, of course.

Edit: This B->G works, but that's fairly boring:
x = 50, y = 48, rule = LifeHistory
21.2A$21.2A$7.2A17.2A$8.A10.4A4.A2.A$8.A.A8.A2.A4.A.A.A$9.2A15.2A.A.A
$26.A2.2A$27.2A$29.2A$27.2A2.A$28.A.2A$28.A$9.C17.2A$9.C.C$9.3C7.2D.D
$11.C8.3D$21.D3$15.2A$2.2A11.2A$3.A$3A$A3$6.2A40.2D$7.A39.D.D$7.A.A
39.D$8.2A7$9.2A$8.A.A$8.A$7.2A2$18.2A$18.A.A$19.A$34.2A$34.A$35.3A$
37.A!
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