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Thread for basic questions

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » October 8th, 2018, 1:57 am

Also: 2-state rules are easier to search and simulate large objects in due to better performance.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » October 8th, 2018, 1:59 am

bprentice wrote:
wwei23 wrote:Did the forum drop life in favor of Symbiosis?


I am aware of your Symbiosis rule of course. Why did this forum not drop Life in favor of Symbiosis?

KittyTac wrote:We need omniperiodicity specifically in Life. For science!


Why specifically? We have Symbiosis, a better rule.

Brian Prentice

The answer to both of those: We discover things in Life specifically because it's hard. For science.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby bprentice » October 8th, 2018, 3:20 am

It was determined that Lua is a better scripting language than Perl. Consequently, Golly was improved by dropping support for Perl and adding support for Lua. Golly is continuously being improved in this manner.

I'm simply suggesting that similar continuous improvements be made to the organization and emphasis of this forum. Adhering to precedent usually stifles innovation and prevents such improvements.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » October 8th, 2018, 4:15 am

bprentice wrote:It was determined that Lua is a better scripting language than Perl. Consequently, Golly was improved by dropping support for Perl and adding support for Lua. Golly is continuously being improved in this manner.

I'm simply suggesting that similar continuous improvements be made to the organization and emphasis of this forum. Adhering to precedent usually stifles innovation and prevents such improvements.

Brian Prentice

However, 3 (or more)-state rules have a massive disadvantage. They're slower to simulate and to search things in.There is no real reason to move to Symbiosis.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Macbi » October 8th, 2018, 4:31 am

I really like our T-shaped knowledge distribution. It's nice to know a little about a lot and a lot about a little. The intense study of Life actually tells us a lot about similar automata, by analogy. For example, if, after a lot of work, Life turns out to be omniperiodic, then that makes it likely that other similar rules are also omniperiodic, since we've shown that it's possible for omniperiodicity to happen in simple rules which weren't designed to have it.

As for why Life remains so popular, I think at this point it's just inertia. But also I think that Life really is the simplest rule with interesting behaviour. It's totallistic and only has three numbers in its rulestring.
Last edited by Macbi on October 8th, 2018, 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby 77topaz » October 8th, 2018, 7:08 am

I think one of the reasons B3/S23 has remained predominant in popularity is because it is defined in such a way that it's relatively easy to understand for laymen (particularly with the "more than 3 live neighbours = overpopulation" etc. metaphors, which were part of giving it the moniker of the Game of Life in the first place). This makes it easier for new enthusiasts to enter the world of B3/S23 specifically.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Gamedziner » October 8th, 2018, 8:18 am

Just a quick reminder that this site is called ConwayLife.com, and that changing its primary rule would make it no longer primarily aimed at Conway's Game of Life.
x = 81, y = 96, rule = LifeHistory
58.2A$58.2A3$59.2A17.2A$59.2A17.2A3$79.2A$79.2A2$57.A$56.A$56.3A4$27.
A$27.A.A$27.2A21$3.2A$3.2A2.2A$7.2A18$7.2A$7.2A2.2A$11.2A11$2A$2A2.2A
$4.2A18$4.2A$4.2A2.2A$8.2A!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » October 8th, 2018, 8:28 am

Macbi wrote:As for why Life remains so popular, I think at this point it's just inertia. But also I think that Life really is the simplest rule with interesting behaviour. It's totallistic and only has three numbers in its rulestring.


Moreover, if you split the live neighbour count into the quotient Q and remainder R modulo 2, and let C be the current state of the centre cell, then you get the incredibly simple formula:

C' := (Q == 1) && (R || C)

You can also consider "run GoL for n generations" to be an n-layer convolutional neural network with kernel [[2 2 2] [2 1 2] [2 2 2]] and activation function f(x) := [5 <= x <= 7].

It's just beautiful.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby bprentice » October 8th, 2018, 10:14 am

Gamedziner wrote:Just a quick reminder that this site is called ConwayLife.com, and that changing its primary rule would make it no longer primarily aimed at Conway's Game of Life.


A more appropriate title for this forum, one that describes what actually goes on here, would be:

"Look How Clever I Am"

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » October 8th, 2018, 10:33 am

This is rather hostile. Are you angry that your point got disproven?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Ian07 » October 8th, 2018, 12:15 pm

77topaz wrote:I think one of the reasons B3/S23 has remained predominant in popularity is because it is defined in such a way that it's relatively easy to understand for laymen (particularly with the "more than 3 live neighbours = overpopulation" etc. metaphors, which were part of giving it the moniker of the Game of Life in the first place). This makes it easier for new enthusiasts to enter the world of B3/S23 specifically.


As for the birth rules, David Bell once brought up the simplicity of "HighLife" versus "LowLife." With B36/S23, the birth rule is the slightly more complicated "if the number of neighbors is divisible by three" rather than just "three." Ditto for B38/S23. Thus, as Macbi said earlier, B3/S23 is probably the simplest and most "natural" rule to behave like this.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Gamedziner » October 8th, 2018, 3:40 pm

bprentice wrote:A more appropriate title for this forum, one that describes what actually goes on here, would be:

"Look How Clever I Am"

Brian Prentice


With all due respect, that title only seems to apply to certain parts of the sandbox, not the forum as a whole.
x = 81, y = 96, rule = LifeHistory
58.2A$58.2A3$59.2A17.2A$59.2A17.2A3$79.2A$79.2A2$57.A$56.A$56.3A4$27.
A$27.A.A$27.2A21$3.2A$3.2A2.2A$7.2A18$7.2A$7.2A2.2A$11.2A11$2A$2A2.2A
$4.2A18$4.2A$4.2A2.2A$8.2A!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby bprentice » October 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm

KittyTac,

First, I have stated that Symbiosis is a better rule than Life since it runs all Life patterns and is also omni-periodic. Can we at least agree on that?

Second your main points seem to be this:

KittyTac wrote: 2-state rules are easier to search and simulate large objects in due to better performance.


and this:

KittyTac wrote:3 (or more)-state rules have a massive disadvantage. They're slower to simulate and to search things in.



If you consider only the subset of patterns that can be run on both Symbiosis and Life, the Life rule and Life's support software can be used to explore Symbiosis. Hence, the disadvantages in ease of search and performance are completely eliminated. The disadvantages only exist when working on Symbiosis patterns that cannot be run on Life.

You have repeatedly used the phrase "For science" as in:

KittyTac wrote:We discover things in Life specifically because it's hard. For science.


What exactly do mean by that?

Again, If you consider only the subset of patterns that can be run on Symbiosis and Life, is it not equally hard to find new discoveries in each rule?

KittyTac wrote: There is no real reason to move to Symbiosis.


There is a very good reason, Symbiosis is a better rule than Life!

Now, to be clear, I am simply suggesting that the forum be reorganized to de-emphasize Life and to encourage the deep exploration of other rules.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby bprentice » October 8th, 2018, 6:46 pm

Gamedziner wrote:
bprentice wrote:A more appropriate title for this forum, one that describes what actually goes on here, would be:

"Look How Clever I Am"

Brian Prentice


With all due respect, that title only seems to apply to certain parts of the sandbox, not the forum as a whole.


If each forum member before posting, asked themselves "Why am I posting?" and you had access to the answers you might come to a different conclusion.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby danny » October 8th, 2018, 7:21 pm

I'd like to point out that this pointless discussion has clogged this (very important) thread, and that most of us came here because of CGoL. Also, your hostility:
bprentice wrote:A more appropriate title for this forum, one that describes what actually goes on here, would be:

"Look How Clever I Am"

Brian Prentice

Doesn't really do much for your case. If we had a separate forum for every rule, the forums would quickly get clogged and people would lose interest in boards, thus leading to deserted ruleboards.

bprentice wrote:First, I have stated that Symbiosis is a better rule than Life since it runs all Life patterns and is also omni-periodic.


This is also a moot point, as you can make rules very simply that have both of those constraints. Set state 1 to Life, then state 2 to, I don't know, Movostill 3, and have them interact in some meaningless way, but the result is very boring, save for some niche applications where technology from both rules can interact in some way. You can't just slap a bunch of rules together and say that's the 'better rule', since otherwise the rule 'Rainbow' would be way better than anything you could possibly come up with that introduces a new challenge to cellular automata.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » October 8th, 2018, 10:05 pm

I find no reason to really move to Symbiosis, due to what danny said. More states =/= better.

By "for science" I meant that discoveries in "harder" rules are more interesting by their nature. Remember that omniperiodicity is an achievement by itself rather than something useful in constructing larger patterns (barring a few cases).
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby 77topaz » October 9th, 2018, 2:45 am

bprentice wrote:If you consider only the subset of patterns that can be run on both Symbiosis and Life, the Life rule and Life's support software can be used to explore Symbiosis. Hence, the disadvantages in ease of search and performance are completely eliminated. The disadvantages only exist when working on Symbiosis patterns that cannot be run on Life.


But those are precisely the patterns that differentiate Symbiosis from CGoL. If you ignore those, you might as well just run regular CGoL.

bprentice wrote:Now, to be clear, I am simply suggesting that the forum be reorganized to de-emphasize Life and to encourage the deep exploration of other rules.


There's already an "Other Cellular Automata" subforum with many threads in it. Isn't that already encouraging the exploration of other rules? Also, the fact that a far larger quantity of research has been done in CGoL over a far longer time compared with other rules makes it seem logical to me that it would receive a certain emphasis.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » October 9th, 2018, 3:46 am

bprentice wrote:First, I have stated that Symbiosis is a better rule than Life since it runs all Life patterns and is also omni-periodic. Can we at least agree on that?


I strongly disagree with the claim that Symbiosis is a better rule than Life on the following three grounds.

Objection 1: epistemic definition of 'better than'

Once the remaining oscillator periods are discovered, you'll be able to state:

bprentice from the future wrote:Life is a better rule than Life since it runs all Life patterns and is also omni-periodic. Can we at least agree on that?


By any reasonable definition of 'better than', X cannot be better than X. So (correct me if I'm wrong), you're claiming that Symbiosis is a better rule than Life because we know that Symbiosis is omniperiodic. A definition that depends on our state of knowledge seems particularly unsatisfactory to me.

Objection 2: Occam's razor

My second ground is that simplicity is a desirable characteristic. Life is a much simpler rule than Symbiosis.

Objection 3: Irreducibility

One of the fascinating properties of Life is the concept of a pattern being 'constructible'. Many definitions of constructibility coincide:

  • A pattern is constructible if and only if it can be built from colliding gliders;
  • A pattern is constructible if and only if it can be built from colliding 35 gliders;
  • A pattern is constructible if and only if it can be built from colliding LWSSes/MWSSes/HWSSes;
  • A pattern is constructible if and only if it can be built from a slow salvo aimed at a block;
  • A pattern is constructible if and only if it can be built from a single channel glider stream aimed at a block.


Moreover, these concepts are useful for self-replicating circuitry.

In Symbiosis, we lose that concept of 'different definitions of constructibility are all equivalent', because patterns constructible from state-1 gliders and patterns constructible from state-2 gliders are entirely different. A universal constructor would need to have storage units containing both types of material.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby 2718281828 » October 12th, 2018, 2:11 pm

Thinking about small quadratic growth pattern:

Could an ark with backfire gliders hit something so that some quadratic growth occurs?
I thought about something like this (carefully better run in golly - stabilization takes millions of generations)
x = 109, y = 32, rule = B3/S23
11bobo$10bo$11bo2bo$13b3o7$bo$obo2$o2bo$2b2o$3bo14$106b2o$107b2o$107bo!



Or could it be more promising to look directly for switch engines which climb close to another one and releases regularly an orthogonal switch engines? Somehow as in the Riley's breeder:
x = 135, y = 41, rule = B3/S23
133bo$134bo$130bo3bo$131b4o3$130bo$131bo$132bo$132bo$131b2o4$133bo$
134bo$130bo3bo$131b4o9$96bo$97bo$93bo3bo$94b4o8$3bo$4bo$o3bo$b4o!

just that the backfired gliders trigger regularly the switch engines.
The key question is if the search space large enough to have a change for success? There are examples of two switch engines which shoot orthogonal gliders. A glider is about 1e5 to 1e6 as common as a switch engine in natural soups so it might be unlikely to find an example. Does someone know examples with an *WSS?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby cvojan » October 15th, 2018, 5:56 pm

How do you use code for CA rules?
For example, I found this code from a thread by KittyTac:
@RULE Energetic
********************************
**** COMPILED FROM NUTSHELL ****
********************************

A rule with two totalistic Life states combined with energy particles which
decay to eight single cell photons travelling in all eight directions.

Based on suggestion by 'KittyTac'
See: http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2030&p=63491#p63491

States
0     vacuum
1     Life
2     Life
3     Energetic particle
4-11  Photons with directions N -> NW

@TABLE
neighborhood: Moore
symmetries: none
n_states: 12

var any.0 = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11}
var any.1 = any.0
var any.2 = any.0
var any.3 = any.0
var any.4 = any.0
var any.5 = any.0
var any.6 = any.0
var any.7 = any.0
var any.8 = any.0
var live.0 = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11}
var alive.0 = {1, 2}
var alive.1 = alive.0
var life.0 = {0, 1, 2}
var life.1 = life.0
var life.2 = life.0
var life.3 = life.0
var life.4 = life.0
var life.5 = life.0
var life.6 = life.0
var life.7 = life.0
var _716888888775130.0 = {0, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11}
var _716888888775130.1 = _716888888775130.0
var _716888888775130.2 = _716888888775130.0
var _716888888775130.3 = _716888888775130.0
var _716888888775130.4 = _716888888775130.0
var _716888888775130.5 = _716888888775130.0
var _188603385896403.0 = {0, 1}
var _188603385896403.1 = _188603385896403.0
var _188603385896403.2 = _188603385896403.0
var _188603385896403.3 = _188603385896403.0
var _188603385896403.4 = _188603385896403.0
var _188603385896403.5 = _188603385896403.0
var _172129488626172.0 = {0, 2}
var _172129488626172.1 = _172129488626172.0
var _172129488626172.2 = _172129488626172.0
var _172129488626172.3 = _172129488626172.0
var _172129488626172.4 = _172129488626172.0
var _172129488626172.5 = _172129488626172.0
var _710501783665629.0 = {3, 4}
var _710501783665629.1 = _710501783665629.0
var _710501783665629.2 = _710501783665629.0
var _710501783665629.3 = _710501783665629.0
var _710501783665629.4 = _710501783665629.0
var _688398911390223.0 = {3, 5}
var _688398911390223.1 = _688398911390223.0
var _688398911390223.2 = _688398911390223.0
var _688398911390223.3 = _688398911390223.0
var _688398911390223.4 = _688398911390223.0
var _688398911390223.5 = _688398911390223.0
var _537895657608921.0 = {3, 6}
var _537895657608921.1 = _537895657608921.0
var _537895657608921.2 = _537895657608921.0
var _537895657608921.3 = _537895657608921.0
var _537895657608921.4 = _537895657608921.0
var _537895657608921.5 = _537895657608921.0
var _537895657608921.6 = _537895657608921.0
var _487705463628354.0 = {3, 7}
var _487705463628354.1 = _487705463628354.0
var _487705463628354.2 = _487705463628354.0
var _487705463628354.3 = _487705463628354.0
var _487705463628354.4 = _487705463628354.0
var _487705463628354.5 = _487705463628354.0
var _487705463628354.6 = _487705463628354.0
var _487705463628354.7 = _487705463628354.0
var _293966399727257.0 = {8, 3}
var _691662787204218.0 = {9, 3}
var _691662787204218.1 = _691662787204218.0
var _153693061857386.0 = {10, 3}
var _153693061857386.1 = _153693061857386.0
var _153693061857386.2 = _153693061857386.0
var _672977476146232.0 = {11, 3}
var _672977476146232.1 = _672977476146232.0
var _672977476146232.2 = _672977476146232.0
var _672977476146232.3 = _672977476146232.0

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10, any.0, any.1, any.2, any.3, any.4, any.5, alive.0, any.6, alive.0
11, any.0, any.1, any.2, any.3, any.4, any.5, any.6, alive.0, alive.0
live.0, any.1, any.2, any.3, any.4, any.5, any.6, any.7, any.8, 0

@COLORS

0  48  48  48
1 255   0 128
2   0 255 128
3 255 255 255

I am kinda stuck with this, plz help
'sup.
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cvojan
 
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Ian07 » October 15th, 2018, 6:37 pm

cvojan wrote:How do you use code for CA rules?
For example, I found this code from a thread by KittyTac:
(ruletable code)

I am kinda stuck with this, plz help


Copy paste the code into a text document and save it as Energetic.rule (The file name has to match the name at the beginning of the code, and make sure it is saved as a .rule file and not a .txt file) and then place it in your Rules folder for Golly.

By the way, if you want to try designing your own rules, check this tutorial on the wiki.
Ian07
 
Posts: 206
Joined: September 22nd, 2018, 8:48 am

Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby AforAmpere » October 15th, 2018, 7:32 pm

Ian07 wrote:
cvojan wrote:How do you use code for CA rules?
For example, I found this code from a thread by KittyTac:
(ruletable code)

I am kinda stuck with this, plz help


Copy paste the code into a text document and save it as Energetic.rule...


An easier method is to copy and paste the Ruletable directly into Golly. It is a lot easier and quicker.
Things to work on:
- Find a (7,1)c/8 ship in a Non-totalistic rule (someone please search the rules)
- Find a C/10 in JustFriends
- Find a C/10 in Day and Night
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Posts: 997
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Ian07 » October 15th, 2018, 7:41 pm

AforAmpere wrote:An easier method is to copy and paste the Ruletable directly into Golly. It is a lot easier and quicker.

Dang, completely forgot about that feature until now, thanks.
(To clarify, go to File > Open Clipboard once the rule is copied)
Ian07
 
Posts: 206
Joined: September 22nd, 2018, 8:48 am

Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » October 15th, 2018, 10:01 pm

By the way, get Energetic v3. It's better due to fixed bugs.

Ian07 wrote:
AforAmpere wrote:An easier method is to copy and paste the Ruletable directly into Golly. It is a lot easier and quicker.

Dang, completely forgot about that feature until now, thanks.
(To clarify, go to File > Open Clipboard once the rule is copied)

Or you can Ctrl+V.
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KittyTac
 
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby danny » October 19th, 2018, 11:28 am

Can it be proven that amount of still lifes with n cells never exceeds the amount of n glider syntheses?

is there some sort of equation or upper bound for either of these quantities?
she/they // Please stop using my full name. Refer to me as dani.

"I'm always on duty, even when I'm off duty." -Cody Kolodziejzyk, Ph.D.
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danny
 
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