Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

For discussion of other cellular automata.
wildmyron
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by wildmyron » November 26th, 2020, 1:47 am

bubblegum wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 9:26 pm
They aren't really faster, in that they would be faster if the Moore neighbourhood treated orthogonal and diagonal neighbours differently in this part, but it only treats them differently in those other parts.
Diagonal and orthogonal neighbours are different though - primarily because a diagonal neighbour shares two cells in its neighbourhood but an orthogonal neighbour shares four cells.

And as MathAndCode said, zigzagging diagonal spaceships can keep up with orthogonal spaceships but zigzagging orthogonal spaceships can not keep up with diagonal spaceships. So measuring the speed with the ∞-norm doesn't treat diagonal and orthogonal spaceships equally.

Anyway, I don't want to wade further into this debate (he says while doing exactly that) but personally I don't think any norm is an ideal representation of distance for Moore neighbourhood CA. Like toroidalet mentioned, I just interpret c/2 diagonal as shorthand for (1,1)c/2 which is quite distinct from (1,0)c/2. And having said all that, the most important thing is that we all use consistent definitions. 'c' has become so synonymous with "one cell per generation" that it doesn't matter what you think of it as, that's how we (nearly) all use it. Even for LtL where the interpretation as speed of light makes absolutely no sense but that's how it came to be used (on this forum anyway).

One final point: I think that sometimes members of this forum community forget that CA are also explored, researched and discussed in other places; and the first time a discovery or idea is mentioned here is not necessarily the first time it was ever thought of or written about.
The 5S project (Smallest Spaceships Supporting Specific Speeds) is now maintained by AforAmpere. The latest collection is hosted on GitHub and contains well over 1,000,000 spaceships.

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bubblegum
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by bubblegum » November 26th, 2020, 2:28 am

wildmyron wrote:
November 26th, 2020, 1:47 am
bubblegum wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 9:26 pm
They aren't really faster, in that they would be faster if the Moore neighbourhood treated orthogonal and diagonal neighbours differently in this part, but it only treats them differently in those other parts.
Diagonal and orthogonal neighbours are different though - primarily because a diagonal neighbour shares two cells in its neighbourhood but an orthogonal neighbour shares four cells.

And as MathAndCode said, zigzagging diagonal spaceships can keep up with orthogonal spaceships but zigzagging orthogonal spaceships can not keep up with diagonal spaceships. So measuring the speed with the ∞-norm doesn't treat diagonal and orthogonal spaceships equally.

Anyway, I don't want to wade further into this debate (he says while doing exactly that) but personally I don't think any norm is an ideal representation of distance for Moore neighbourhood CA. Like toroidalet mentioned, I just interpret c/2 diagonal as shorthand for (1,1)c/2 which is quite distinct from (1,0)c/2. And having said all that, the most important thing is that we all use consistent definitions. 'c' has become so synonymous with "one cell per generation" that it doesn't matter what you think of it as, that's how we (nearly) all use it. Even for LtL where the interpretation as speed of light makes absolutely no sense but that's how it came to be used (on this forum anyway).

One final point: I think that sometimes members of this forum community forget that CA are also explored, researched and discussed in other places; and the first time a discovery or idea is mentioned here is not necessarily the first time it was ever thought of or written about.
On a tangent I find it somewhat funny that we just can't come up with a representation that makes sense in every area "FTL is illegal" "these aren't the same speed" "these are the same speed though" "potatoes" although we can find infinite amounts of completely nonsensical ones. (This isn't very rare though, see for instance NP-completeness.)

Then again it could be worse, like the Karlovy Vary page on the English Wikipedia which was not moved to Carlsbad due to Carlsbad being the English name.
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Schiaparelliorbust » November 26th, 2020, 3:13 am

bubblegum wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 9:06 pm
No, no, no, the speed of light is the fastest information can travel in any range-1 rule (the LTL one is still 1 cell per generation), and different rules cannot arbitrarily set it—it's one cell per generation. The speed of sound is the one that can change, being a random term thought up less than 24 hours ago.
I assume you mean that in LTL we say that a spaceship travels at, say, 3c/2 and not 3c/4 if it's range 2. I think the definition of the speed of sound should be revised, I say it is the fastest sustainable speed in a vacuum (no waveguides and the like), or, I think, equivalently, the fastest speed of a spaceship. Lightspeed travel is possible in the vacuum with supports, not just along wires. The speed of sound also changes in different media, like in real life, though this requires a new definition of the concept. Sorry if I'm just rephrasing a well-known fact.
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Donald K Trump
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Donald K Trump » November 26th, 2020, 11:49 pm

The JVN rules puzzle me a lot!
Please teach me how to use JvN rules.
I tried many soups but always end up getting stable patterns.

Code: Select all

x = 2, y = 2, rule = JvN29
A.$.A!

Hunting
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Hunting » November 27th, 2020, 12:06 am

Schiaparelliorbust wrote:
November 26th, 2020, 3:13 am
Lightspeed travel is possible in the vacuum with supports, not just along wires.
Well, that support is a wire itself. It's not vacuum anymore if infinitely many supports were added.

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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by bubblegum » November 27th, 2020, 12:33 am

Donald K Trump wrote:
November 26th, 2020, 11:49 pm
The JVN rules puzzle me a lot!
Please teach me how to use JvN rules.
I tried many soups but always end up getting stable patterns.

Code: Select all

x = 2, y = 2, rule = JvN29
A.$.A!
JvN29, Hutton32 and Nobili32 are for construction/circuitry, not dynamics. Just forgoing them for a simpler, easier-to-understand rule is recommended, unless you really want the novelty of horribly outdated rules for some reason.
Each day is a hidden opportunity, a frozen waterfall that's waiting to be realised, and one that I'll probably be ignoring
sonata wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:33 pm
conwaylife signatures are amazing[citation needed]
anything

Hunting
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Hunting » November 27th, 2020, 12:37 am

bubblegum wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 12:33 am
Donald K Trump wrote:
November 26th, 2020, 11:49 pm
The JVN rules puzzle me a lot!
Please teach me how to use JvN rules.
I tried many soups but always end up getting stable patterns.

Code: Select all

x = 2, y = 2, rule = JvN29
A.$.A!
JvN29, Hutton32 and Nobili32 are for construction/circuitry, not dynamics. Just forgoing them for a simpler, easier-to-understand rule is recommended, unless you really want the novelty of horribly outdated rules for some reason.
Well, JvN29 is not outdated at all, and is very easy to understand (at least much easier than NTAA).

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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by bubblegum » November 27th, 2020, 1:17 am

Hunting wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 12:37 am
bubblegum wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 12:33 am
Donald K Trump wrote:
November 26th, 2020, 11:49 pm
The JVN rules puzzle me a lot!
Please teach me how to use JvN rules.
I tried many soups but always end up getting stable patterns.

Code: Select all

x = 2, y = 2, rule = JvN29
A.$.A!
JvN29, Hutton32 and Nobili32 are for construction/circuitry, not dynamics. Just forgoing them for a simpler, easier-to-understand rule is recommended, unless you really want the novelty of horribly outdated rules for some reason.
Well, JvN29 is not outdated at all, and is very easy to understand (at least much easier than NTAA).
All NTAA is is a wire rule where signals are polite and are subject to one binary and one ternary function. And no JvN29 isn't really outdated, like 300-years-outdated.
Each day is a hidden opportunity, a frozen waterfall that's waiting to be realised, and one that I'll probably be ignoring
sonata wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:33 pm
conwaylife signatures are amazing[citation needed]
anything

Donald K Trump
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Donald K Trump » November 27th, 2020, 3:24 am

bubblegum wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 1:17 am
Hunting wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 12:37 am
bubblegum wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 12:33 am


JvN29, Hutton32 and Nobili32 are for construction/circuitry, not dynamics. Just forgoing them for a simpler, easier-to-understand rule is recommended, unless you really want the novelty of horribly outdated rules for some reason.
Well, JvN29 is not outdated at all, and is very easy to understand (at least much easier than NTAA).
All NTAA is is a wire rule where signals are polite and are subject to one binary and one ternary function. And no JvN29 isn't really outdated, like 300-years-outdated.
There is no article for JvN rules on the LifeWiki.

Hunting
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Hunting » November 27th, 2020, 4:34 am

Donald K Trump wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 3:24 am
bubblegum wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 1:17 am
Hunting wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 12:37 am


Well, JvN29 is not outdated at all, and is very easy to understand (at least much easier than NTAA).
All NTAA is is a wire rule where signals are polite and are subject to one binary and one ternary function. And no JvN29 isn't really outdated, like 300-years-outdated.
There is no article for JvN rules on the LifeWiki.
There is no need. JvN is the clearest rule ever, and it is single-purpose.

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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by bubblegum » November 27th, 2020, 1:38 pm

Hunting wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 4:34 am
Donald K Trump wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 3:24 am
bubblegum wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 1:17 am


All NTAA is is a wire rule where signals are polite and are subject to one binary and one ternary function. And no JvN29 isn't really outdated, like 300-years-outdated.
There is no article for JvN rules on the LifeWiki.
There is no need. JvN is the clearest rule ever, and it is single-purpose.
JvN has somewhere around 0 documentation anywhere. JvN is the first rule ever, not necessarily the clearest (in fact probably one of the least friendly to outsiders which is pretty much everyone). There is a need, in my opinion, it's just nobody's actually going to write it because about nobody knows how it works and thinks they can explain it, and you stating that it is the clearest rule ever is doing the opposite of helping.

(seriously how does this [REDACTED] work)
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sonata wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:33 pm
conwaylife signatures are amazing[citation needed]
anything

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toroidalet
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by toroidalet » November 27th, 2020, 5:00 pm

Alright everyone, stop with all the one-line arguments about JvN29.

(EDIT: I replaced my paragraph with a more wiki-style introduction)
If you want to know how JvN29 works, open the following patterns in the folder Self-rep: cell-coders-demo.rle (reproduced below), and read-arm-demo.rle (which shows JvN29 in action, as do JvN-loop-replicator.rle and the sphinx patterns, but they're huge and slow). I'd also recommend you turn icons on.

Signals
JvN29 has two types of signals, represented by the green (states 13-16) and magenta (21-24) arrows. They travel on blue (9-12) and red (17-20) arrows respectively, and transmit the signal to the cell they point to. However, magenta signals destroy blue arrows, and green signals destroy red arrows.

Splitters
The squares (states 25-28) are splitters, and after 2 generations they transmit the signal to every arrow not pointing to them, regardless of color. The green square (state 25) is an inactive splitter, and the other states are just splitters with signals inside them and have no special behavior. Splitters can only receive green signals, and magenta signals will just destroy them.
In Hutton32 and Nobili32, if a splitter receives a signal from an arrow and the arrow on the opposite side is pointing in the same direction, it will skip to the other side in one step without splitting it. (the 3 extra states in those rules just do that)

Construction
If a signal arrow points to an empty cell, it will turn into state 1 (the red circle), which will turn into one of the stable components after a few generations. Other signals can influence which state it turns into. Here is cell-coders.rle, which shows the various operations:

Code: Select all

x = 60, y = 66, rule = JvN29
18.2pA.3pA.pA3.pA7.2pA2.2pA2.2pA2.3pA.2pA3.2pA$17.pA3.pA3.pA3.pA6.pA
3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.pA3.pA.pA.pA$17.pA3.2pA2.pA3.pA6.pA3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.2pA
2.pA.pA2.pA$17.pA3.pA3.pA3.pA6.pA3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.pA3.2pA4.pA$18.2pA.3pA
.3pA.3pA5.2pA2.2pA2.2pA2.3pA.pA.pA.2pA5$4IM3.I14.M28I3.I$44.I$M3IM3.J
$32.20I3.J$IM2IM3.K23.2JK5.I3.I$32.JIJ$2IMIM3.L23.2JK$23.M8IpAIJ$I2MI
M3.Q2$3I2M3.R$32.20I3.K$IMI2M3.S23.JIJ6.I2.I$32.2JK$2I3M3.T14.M8IpAIpA
2$I4M3.pA2$33.19I3.L$33.JIJ6.I.I$33.2JK$23.M9IpAIJ4$33.19I3.Q$33.J3.pA
4.2I.I$33.J.2IJ$23.M9IpAIpAIpA6$33.19I3.R$23.M9IpAIpA7.2I4$33.19I3.S$
33.J.JIJ4.I.2I$33.J.2JK$23.M9IpAIpAIJ6$33.19I3.T$23.M9IpAIpAIpA4.3I6$
33.19I3.pA$23.M9IpAIpAIpAIpA.4I!
I think Hunting is right and the rules of JvN29 make intuitive sense (probably about the same as Hensel notation), but are hard to explain to someone else (sorry if my explanation is unclear).
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MathAndCode
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by MathAndCode » November 29th, 2020, 6:53 pm

I'm having difficulty with colors in a rule that I'm making. Here is the code.

Code: Select all

@RULE ExpandedDoubleB3S23

@TABLE
n_states:4
neighborhood:Moore
symmetries:permute
var a = {1,3}
var b = a
var c = {0,2}
var d = c
var e = a
var f = c
var g = c
var h = {0,1,2,3}
var i = h
var j = h
var k = {0,1}
var l = k
var m = k
var n = k
var o = {2,3}
var p = o
var q = o
var r = h
var s = h

0, 1,a,b,0,0,0,0,0, 1
0, 1,1,a,c,0,0,0,0, 1
0, 1,1,1,c,d,0,0,0, 1

h, a,b,e,2,2,2,2,c, 1
h, 3,a,b,2,2,2,c,d, 1
h, 3,3,a,2,2,c,d,f, 1
h, 3,3,3,2,c,d,f,g, 1
h, 1,1,i,0,0,0,0,0, 1
h, 1,1,a,0,0,0,0,0, 1
h, 1,1,1,c,0,0,0,0, 1

3, 1,a,k,0,0,0,0,0, 1
3, 1,1,k,c,0,0,0,0, 1
3, 1,1,o,2,2,2,c,d, 1
3, 1,3,o,2,2,c,d,f, 1
3, 3,3,o,2,c,d,f,g, 1

0, 2,o,p,0,0,0,0,0, 2
0, 2,2,o,k,0,0,0,0, 2
0, 2,2,2,k,l,0,0,0, 2

h, o,p,q,1,1,1,1,k, 2
h, 3,o,p,1,1,1,k,l, 2
h, 3,3,o,1,1,k,l,m, 2
h, 3,3,3,1,k,l,m,n, 2
h, 2,2,i,0,0,0,0,0, 2
h, 2,2,o,0,0,0,0,0, 2
h, 2,2,2,k,0,0,0,0, 2

3, 2,o,c,0,0,0,0,0, 2
3, 2,2,c,k,0,0,0,0, 2
3, 2,2,a,1,1,1,k,l, 2
3, 2,3,a,1,1,k,l,m, 2
3, 3,3,a,1,k,l,m,n, 1

h, 3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,3,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,1,3,2,2,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,1,1,2,2,2,0,0, 3

1, 1,1,k,2,2,2,0,0, 3
1, 1,1,o,2,2,0,0,0, 3
1, 1,k,3,2,2,0,0,0, 3
1, 1,o,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
1, k,3,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
1, o,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3

2, 2,2,c,1,1,1,0,0, 3
2, 2,2,a,1,1,0,0,0, 3
2, 2,c,3,1,1,0,0,0, 3
2, 2,a,3,1,0,0,0,0, 3
2, c,3,3,1,0,0,0,0, 3
2, a,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3

h, k,c,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
h, i,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
h, k,2,2,2,2,c,d,f, 0
h, o,2,2,2,c,d,f,g, 0
h, c,1,1,1,1,k,l,m, 0
h, a,1,1,1,k,l,m,n, 0
h, 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2, 0
h, 1,1,1,3,2,2,2,i, 0
h, 1,1,3,3,2,2,i,j, 0
h, 1,3,3,3,2,i,j,r, 0
h, 3,3,3,3,i,j,r,s, 0

1, k,c,d,0,0,0,0,0, 0
1, i,c,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
1, c,d,1,1,1,1,k,l, 0
1, c,a,1,1,1,k,l,m, 0
1, a,b,1,1,k,l,m,n, 0

2, c,k,l,0,0,0,0,0, 0
2, i,k,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
2, k,l,2,2,2,2,c,d, 0
2, k,o,2,2,2,c,d,f, 0
2, o,p,2,2,c,d,f,g, 0

@COLORS
0 0 0 0 1 255 128 0 2 0 128 255 3 255 255 255
I want state 0 to be black, state 1 to be orange, state 2 to be azure, and state 3 to be white. However, when I paste the rule into Golly, states 0 and 1 appear black, state 2 appears darkish blue, and state 3 appears blue. How do I correct the colors?
I am not finished with this rule and will add more states, so please do not tell me that DoubleB3S23 has already been created.



Edit: I tested my partial rule, and it turns out that two of the states actually model B23S23, but I think that I can fix that.



Another edit: I fixed the B2, but now the two aspects seem to interfere with each other. However, I think that I can also fix that.

Code: Select all

@RULE ExpandedDoubleB3S23

@TABLE
n_states:4
neighborhood:Moore
symmetries:permute
var a = {1,3}
var b = a
var c = {0,2}
var d = c
var e = a
var f = c
var g = c
var h = {0,1,2,3}
var i = h
var j = h
var k = {0,1}
var l = k
var m = k
var n = k
var o = {2,3}
var p = o
var q = o
var r = h
var s = h

0, 1,a,b,0,0,0,0,0, 1
0, 1,1,a,c,0,0,0,0, 1
0, 1,1,1,c,d,0,0,0, 1

h, a,b,e,2,2,2,2,c, 1
h, 3,a,b,2,2,2,c,d, 1
h, 3,3,a,2,2,c,d,f, 1
h, 3,3,3,2,c,d,f,g, 1
h, 1,1,a,0,0,0,0,0, 1
h, 1,1,1,c,0,0,0,0, 1

3, 1,a,k,0,0,0,0,0, 1
3, 1,1,k,c,0,0,0,0, 1
3, 1,1,o,2,2,2,c,d, 1
3, 1,3,o,2,2,c,d,f, 1
3, 3,3,o,2,c,d,f,g, 1

0, 2,o,p,0,0,0,0,0, 2
0, 2,2,o,k,0,0,0,0, 2
0, 2,2,2,k,l,0,0,0, 2

h, o,p,q,1,1,1,1,k, 2
h, 3,o,p,1,1,1,k,l, 2
h, 3,3,o,1,1,k,l,m, 2
h, 3,3,3,1,k,l,m,n, 2
h, 2,2,o,0,0,0,0,0, 2
h, 2,2,2,k,0,0,0,0, 2

3, 2,o,c,0,0,0,0,0, 2
3, 2,2,c,k,0,0,0,0, 2
3, 2,2,a,1,1,1,k,l, 2
3, 2,3,a,1,1,k,l,m, 2
3, 3,3,a,1,k,l,m,n, 1

h, 3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,3,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,1,3,2,2,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,1,1,2,2,2,0,0, 3

1, 1,1,k,2,2,2,0,0, 3
1, 1,1,o,2,2,0,0,0, 3
1, 1,k,3,2,2,0,0,0, 3
1, 1,o,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
1, k,3,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
1, o,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3

2, 2,2,c,1,1,1,0,0, 3
2, 2,2,a,1,1,0,0,0, 3
2, 2,c,3,1,1,0,0,0, 3
2, 2,a,3,1,0,0,0,0, 3
2, c,3,3,1,0,0,0,0, 3
2, a,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3

h, k,c,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
h, i,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
h, k,2,2,2,2,c,d,f, 0
h, o,2,2,2,c,d,f,g, 0
h, c,1,1,1,1,k,l,m, 0
h, a,1,1,1,k,l,m,n, 0
h, 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2, 0
h, 1,1,1,3,2,2,2,i, 0
h, 1,1,3,3,2,2,i,j, 0
h, 1,3,3,3,2,i,j,r, 0
h, 3,3,3,3,i,j,r,s, 0

1, k,c,d,0,0,0,0,0, 0
1, i,c,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
1, c,d,1,1,1,1,k,l, 0
1, c,a,1,1,1,k,l,m, 0
1, a,b,1,1,k,l,m,n, 0

2, c,k,l,0,0,0,0,0, 0
2, i,k,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
2, k,l,2,2,2,2,c,d, 0
2, k,o,2,2,2,c,d,f, 0
2, o,p,2,2,c,d,f,g, 0

@COLORS
0 0 0 0 1 255 128 0 2 0 128 255 3 255 255 255


Yet another edit: I fixed the interference.

Code: Select all

@RULE ExpandedDoubleB3S23

@TABLE
n_states:4
neighborhood:Moore
symmetries:permute
var a = {1,3}
var b = a
var c = {0,2}
var d = c
var e = a
var f = c
var g = c
var h = {0,1,2,3}
var i = h
var j = h
var k = {0,1}
var l = k
var m = k
var n = k
var o = {2,3}
var p = o
var q = o
var r = h
var s = h

0, 1,a,b,0,0,0,0,0, 1
0, 1,1,a,c,0,0,0,0, 1
0, 1,1,1,c,d,0,0,0, 1

h, a,b,e,2,2,2,2,c, 1
h, 3,a,b,2,2,2,c,d, 1
h, 3,3,a,2,2,c,d,f, 1
h, 3,3,3,2,c,d,f,g, 1
h, 1,1,a,0,0,0,0,0, 1
h, 1,1,1,c,0,0,0,0, 1

3, 1,a,k,0,0,0,0,0, 1
3, 1,1,k,c,0,0,0,0, 1
3, 1,1,o,2,2,2,c,d, 1
3, 1,3,o,2,2,c,d,f, 1
3, 3,3,o,2,c,d,f,g, 1

0, 2,o,p,0,0,0,0,0, 2
0, 2,2,o,k,0,0,0,0, 2
0, 2,2,2,k,l,0,0,0, 2

h, o,p,q,1,1,1,1,k, 2
h, 3,o,p,1,1,1,k,l, 2
h, 3,3,o,1,1,k,l,m, 2
h, 3,3,3,1,k,l,m,n, 2
h, 2,2,o,0,0,0,0,0, 2
h, 2,2,2,k,0,0,0,0, 2

3, 2,o,c,0,0,0,0,0, 2
3, 2,2,c,k,0,0,0,0, 2
3, 2,2,a,1,1,1,k,l, 2
3, 2,3,a,1,1,k,l,m, 2
3, 3,3,a,1,k,l,m,n, 2

h, 3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,3,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,1,3,2,2,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,1,1,2,2,2,0,0, 3

1, 1,1,k,2,2,2,0,0, 3
1, 1,1,o,2,2,0,0,0, 3
1, 1,k,3,2,2,0,0,0, 3
1, 1,o,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
1, k,3,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
1, o,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3

2, 2,2,c,1,1,1,0,0, 3
2, 2,2,a,1,1,0,0,0, 3
2, 2,c,3,1,1,0,0,0, 3
2, 2,a,3,1,0,0,0,0, 3
2, c,3,3,1,0,0,0,0, 3
2, a,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3

h, k,c,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
h, i,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
h, k,2,2,2,2,c,d,f, 0
h, o,2,2,2,c,d,f,g, 0
h, c,1,1,1,1,k,l,m, 0
h, a,1,1,1,k,l,m,n, 0
h, 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2, 0
h, 1,1,1,3,2,2,2,i, 0
h, 1,1,3,3,2,2,i,j, 0
h, 1,3,3,3,2,i,j,r, 0
h, 3,3,3,3,i,j,r,s, 0

1, k,c,d,0,0,0,0,0, 0
1, i,c,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
1, c,d,1,1,1,1,k,l, 0
1, c,a,1,1,1,k,l,m, 0
1, a,b,1,1,k,l,m,n, 0

2, c,k,l,0,0,0,0,0, 0
2, i,k,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
2, k,l,2,2,2,2,c,d, 0
2, k,o,2,2,2,c,d,f, 0
2, o,p,2,2,c,d,f,g, 0

@COLORS
0 0 0 0 1 255 128 0 2 0 128 255 3 255 255 255
However, I still don't know how to fix the colors.
Last edited by MathAndCode on November 29th, 2020, 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I am tentatively considering myself back.

fluffykitty
Posts: 1175
Joined: June 14th, 2014, 5:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by fluffykitty » November 29th, 2020, 7:17 pm

Each state's color specification should be on a separate line. Currently, the first six numbers are defining a gradient from #000000 to #0001FF and the rest are being ignored.

MathAndCode
Posts: 5141
Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by MathAndCode » November 29th, 2020, 7:29 pm

fluffykitty wrote:
November 29th, 2020, 7:17 pm
Each state's color specification should be on a separate line. Currently, the first six numbers are defining a gradient from #000000 to #0001FF and the rest are being ignored.
Thank you. Now it works properly.

Code: Select all

@RULE ExpandedDoubleB3S23

@TABLE
n_states:4
neighborhood:Moore
symmetries:permute
var a = {1,3}
var b = a
var c = {0,2}
var d = c
var e = a
var f = c
var g = c
var h = {0,1,2,3}
var i = h
var j = h
var k = {0,1}
var l = k
var m = k
var n = k
var o = {2,3}
var p = o
var q = o
var r = h
var s = h

0, 1,a,b,0,0,0,0,0, 1
0, 1,1,a,c,0,0,0,0, 1
0, 1,1,1,c,d,0,0,0, 1

h, a,b,e,2,2,2,2,c, 1
h, 3,a,b,2,2,2,c,d, 1
h, 3,3,a,2,2,c,d,f, 1
h, 3,3,3,2,c,d,f,g, 1
h, 1,1,a,0,0,0,0,0, 1
h, 1,1,1,c,0,0,0,0, 1

3, 1,a,k,0,0,0,0,0, 1
3, 1,1,k,c,0,0,0,0, 1
3, 1,1,o,2,2,2,c,d, 1
3, 1,3,o,2,2,c,d,f, 1
3, 3,3,o,2,c,d,f,g, 1

0, 2,o,p,0,0,0,0,0, 2
0, 2,2,o,k,0,0,0,0, 2
0, 2,2,2,k,l,0,0,0, 2

h, o,p,q,1,1,1,1,k, 2
h, 3,o,p,1,1,1,k,l, 2
h, 3,3,o,1,1,k,l,m, 2
h, 3,3,3,1,k,l,m,n, 2
h, 2,2,o,0,0,0,0,0, 2
h, 2,2,2,k,0,0,0,0, 2

3, 2,o,c,0,0,0,0,0, 2
3, 2,2,c,k,0,0,0,0, 2
3, 2,2,a,1,1,1,k,l, 2
3, 2,3,a,1,1,k,l,m, 2
3, 3,3,a,1,k,l,m,n, 2

h, 3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,3,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,1,3,2,2,0,0,0, 3
h, 1,1,1,2,2,2,0,0, 3

1, 1,1,k,2,2,2,0,0, 3
1, 1,1,o,2,2,0,0,0, 3
1, 1,k,3,2,2,0,0,0, 3
1, 1,o,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
1, k,3,3,2,0,0,0,0, 3
1, o,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3

2, 2,2,c,1,1,1,0,0, 3
2, 2,2,a,1,1,0,0,0, 3
2, 2,c,3,1,1,0,0,0, 3
2, 2,a,3,1,0,0,0,0, 3
2, c,3,3,1,0,0,0,0, 3
2, a,3,3,0,0,0,0,0, 3

h, k,c,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
h, i,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
h, k,2,2,2,2,c,d,f, 0
h, o,2,2,2,c,d,f,g, 0
h, c,1,1,1,1,k,l,m, 0
h, a,1,1,1,k,l,m,n, 0
h, 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2, 0
h, 1,1,1,3,2,2,2,i, 0
h, 1,1,3,3,2,2,i,j, 0
h, 1,3,3,3,2,i,j,r, 0
h, 3,3,3,3,i,j,r,s, 0

1, k,c,d,0,0,0,0,0, 0
1, i,c,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
1, c,d,1,1,1,1,k,l, 0
1, c,a,1,1,1,k,l,m, 0
1, a,b,1,1,k,l,m,n, 0

2, c,k,l,0,0,0,0,0, 0
2, i,k,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0
2, k,l,2,2,2,2,c,d, 0
2, k,o,2,2,2,c,d,f, 0
2, o,p,2,2,c,d,f,g, 0

@COLORS
0 0 0 0
1 255 128 0
2 0 128 255
3 255 255 255
I am tentatively considering myself back.

fluffykitty
Posts: 1175
Joined: June 14th, 2014, 5:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by fluffykitty » November 29th, 2020, 7:31 pm

You're welcome. What other states are you planning to add?

MathAndCode
Posts: 5141
Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by MathAndCode » November 29th, 2020, 11:25 pm

fluffykitty wrote:
November 29th, 2020, 7:31 pm
You're welcome. What other states are you planning to add?
I just finished it.

Code: Select all

x = 146, y = 79, rule = ExpandedDoubleB3S23
83.A$81.A.A$82.2A$66.H$66.H$66.H$66.H$66.H$.2F63.H$.2F63.H$7.3F56.H$6.
F3.F55.H27.A$6.2F.2F41.2B12.H28.A$30.2B19.4B11.H26.3A$6.2F.2F17.2B.2B
18.2B.2B10.H$8.F19.4B21.2B11.H$16.2A11.2B35.H$16.A.A47.H$16.A49.H$.F7.
F56.H$F2.F3.F2.F45.B.B7.H$4.F.F49.2B8.H$4.F.F50.B8.H$4.F.F59.H39.A$F2.
F3.F2.F55.H37.A.A$.3F3.3F56.H38.2A$66.H$66.H$27.3A36.H76.2C$27.A38.H76.
2C$28.A37.H$46.B19.H$44.2B20.H$45.2B19.H$66.H50.A$.2F63.H51.A$.2F63.H
49.3A$66.H$66.H$39.2A25.H69.3C3.3C$39.A.A24.H68.C2.C3.C2.C$39.A26.H72.
C.C$.2D63.H55.2B15.C.C$.2D30.B.B30.H56.2B14.C.C$7.3D23.2B31.H55.B12.C
2.C3.C2.C$6.D3.D23.B31.H69.C7.C$6.2D.2D55.H62.A$66.H60.A.A$6.2D.2D55.
H61.2A$8.D57.H70.C$66.H68.2C.2C$50.3A13.H$50.A15.H68.2C.2C$.D7.D41.A14.
H44.B23.C3.C$D2.D3.D2.D12.B42.H44.2B23.3C$4.D.D14.2B43.H43.B.B30.2C$4.
D.D15.2B42.H76.2C$4.D.D59.H$D2.D3.D2.D55.H$.3D3.3D56.H$66.H$66.H$16.A
2.A42.2A2.H$20.A19.4A18.A.A.H$16.A3.A18.A3.A18.A3.H$17.4A22.A22.H32.2B
$39.A2.A23.H33.2B$66.H32.B$66.H$.2D63.H$.2D63.H$66.H$66.H$66.H$66.H$66.
H$88.B$88.2B$87.B.B!
I will type an explanation in the talk page.



Edit: I have added my explanation.



Another edit: Unfortunately, a Quadruple X using my originally planned method does not seem to work because the glider parities don't match.

Code: Select all

x = 137, y = 194, rule = ExpandedDoubleB3S23
34.F101.H$27.2F4.3F100.H$27.2F3.F3.F99.H$32.2F.2F99.H$32.2F.2F99.H$
58.2B44.2B30.H$32.2F.2F20.4B21.2B19.4B21.2B6.H$32.2F.2F20.2B.2B18.2B.
2B18.2B.2B18.2B.2B5.H$32.F3.F3.3A16.2B19.4B21.2B19.4B6.H$33.3F4.A40.
2B44.2B7.H$34.F6.A94.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$125.B10.H$123.2B11.H$
27.F7.F88.2B10.H$26.4F3.4F99.H$26.F3.F.F3.F15.2A82.H$27.F2.F.F2.F16.A
.A81.H$27.3F3.3F16.A83.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$27.2F
107.H$27.2F107.H$136.H$63.3A70.H$63.A34.B37.H$64.A33.B.B35.H$98.2B36.
H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$75.2A59.H$75.A.A9.B48.H$
75.A10.B49.H$86.3B47.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.
H$86.3A47.H$75.B10.A49.H$75.B.B9.A48.H$75.2B59.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$
136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$98.2A36.H$64.B33.A.A35.H$63.B34.A37.H$63.3B
70.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$109.3A24.H$52.B
56.A26.H$52.B.B55.A25.H$52.2B82.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H
$136.H$121.2A13.H$41.B79.A.A12.H$40.B80.A14.H$40.3B93.H$136.H$136.H$
136.H$2.2C132.H$2.2C132.H$136.H$136.H$16.A2.A42.A2.A42.A2.A24.H$20.A
19.4A22.A19.4A22.A19.3A.H$16.A3.A8.B9.A3.A18.A3.A18.A3.A18.A3.A18.A4.
H$17.4A8.B.B11.A19.4A22.A19.4A21.A.H$29.2B8.A2.A42.A2.A42.A2.A.H$136.
H$136.H$136.H$2.3C3.3C125.H$.C3.C.C3.C124.H$C3.2C.2C3.C11.A111.H$C.2C
5.2C.C10.2A111.H$2.C7.C12.A.A110.H$18.B117.H$17.B118.H$17.3B116.H$52.
2B44.2B36.H$30.2B19.4B21.2B19.4B21.2B12.H$8.3C17.2B.2B18.2B.2B18.2B.
2B18.2B.2B18.2B.2B11.H$8.C.C17.4B21.2B19.4B21.2B19.4B12.H$7.C3.C17.2B
44.2B44.2B13.H$7.C3.C124.H$35.2A99.H$2.2C4.3C23.2A92.B7.H$2.2C32.A89.
2B8.H$127.2B7.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$47.A88.H$
46.2A88.H$46.A.A66.B.B18.H$115.2B19.H$116.B19.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$
136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$58.2A76.H$57.2A46.B30.H$59.A43.2B31.H$104.2B
30.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$70.A65.H$69.2A65.H$69.
A.A20.B.B41.H$92.2B42.H$93.B42.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$
136.H$81.2A53.H$80.2AB53.H$80.2BA53.H$81.2B53.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$
136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$93.A42.H$92.2A42.H$69.B.B20.A.A41.H$69.2B65.H
$70.B65.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$136.H$104.2A30.H$59.B
43.2A31.H$57.2B46.A30.H$58.2B76.H!
However, I think that the pattern can be modified in order to fix that.
I am tentatively considering myself back.

Donald K Trump
Posts: 64
Joined: November 19th, 2020, 11:13 pm

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Donald K Trump » December 1st, 2020, 1:49 am

toroidalet wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 5:00 pm
Alright everyone, stop with all the one-line arguments about JvN29.

(EDIT: I replaced my paragraph with a more wiki-style introduction)
If you want to know how JvN29 works, open the following patterns in the folder Self-rep: cell-coders-demo.rle (reproduced below), and read-arm-demo.rle (which shows JvN29 in action, as do JvN-loop-replicator.rle and the sphinx patterns, but they're huge and slow). I'd also recommend you turn icons on.

Signals
JvN29 has two types of signals, represented by the green (states 13-16) and magenta (21-24) arrows. They travel on blue (9-12) and red (17-20) arrows respectively, and transmit the signal to the cell they point to. However, magenta signals destroy blue arrows, and green signals destroy red arrows.

Splitters
The squares (states 25-28) are splitters, and after 2 generations they transmit the signal to every arrow not pointing to them, regardless of color. The green square (state 25) is an inactive splitter, and the other states are just splitters with signals inside them and have no special behavior. Splitters can only receive green signals, and magenta signals will just destroy them.
In Hutton32 and Nobili32, if a splitter receives a signal from an arrow and the arrow on the opposite side is pointing in the same direction, it will skip to the other side in one step without splitting it. (the 3 extra states in those rules just do that)

Construction
If a signal arrow points to an empty cell, it will turn into state 1 (the red circle), which will turn into one of the stable components after a few generations. Other signals can influence which state it turns into. Here is cell-coders.rle, which shows the various operations:

Code: Select all

x = 60, y = 66, rule = JvN29
18.2pA.3pA.pA3.pA7.2pA2.2pA2.2pA2.3pA.2pA3.2pA$17.pA3.pA3.pA3.pA6.pA
3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.pA3.pA.pA.pA$17.pA3.2pA2.pA3.pA6.pA3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.2pA
2.pA.pA2.pA$17.pA3.pA3.pA3.pA6.pA3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.pA3.2pA4.pA$18.2pA.3pA
.3pA.3pA5.2pA2.2pA2.2pA2.3pA.pA.pA.2pA5$4IM3.I14.M28I3.I$44.I$M3IM3.J
$32.20I3.J$IM2IM3.K23.2JK5.I3.I$32.JIJ$2IMIM3.L23.2JK$23.M8IpAIJ$I2MI
M3.Q2$3I2M3.R$32.20I3.K$IMI2M3.S23.JIJ6.I2.I$32.2JK$2I3M3.T14.M8IpAIpA
2$I4M3.pA2$33.19I3.L$33.JIJ6.I.I$33.2JK$23.M9IpAIJ4$33.19I3.Q$33.J3.pA
4.2I.I$33.J.2IJ$23.M9IpAIpAIpA6$33.19I3.R$23.M9IpAIpA7.2I4$33.19I3.S$
33.J.JIJ4.I.2I$33.J.2JK$23.M9IpAIpAIJ6$33.19I3.T$23.M9IpAIpAIpA4.3I6$
33.19I3.pA$23.M9IpAIpAIpAIpA.4I!
I think Hunting is right and the rules of JvN29 make intuitive sense (probably about the same as Hensel notation), but are hard to explain to someone else (sorry if my explanation is unclear).
Why do I continually get stable patterns from random soups?

Hunting
Posts: 4395
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 2:54 am

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Hunting » December 1st, 2020, 1:58 am

Donald K Trump wrote:
December 1st, 2020, 1:49 am
toroidalet wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 5:00 pm
Alright everyone, stop with all the one-line arguments about JvN29.

(EDIT: I replaced my paragraph with a more wiki-style introduction)
If you want to know how JvN29 works, open the following patterns in the folder Self-rep: cell-coders-demo.rle (reproduced below), and read-arm-demo.rle (which shows JvN29 in action, as do JvN-loop-replicator.rle and the sphinx patterns, but they're huge and slow). I'd also recommend you turn icons on.

Signals
JvN29 has two types of signals, represented by the green (states 13-16) and magenta (21-24) arrows. They travel on blue (9-12) and red (17-20) arrows respectively, and transmit the signal to the cell they point to. However, magenta signals destroy blue arrows, and green signals destroy red arrows.

Splitters
The squares (states 25-28) are splitters, and after 2 generations they transmit the signal to every arrow not pointing to them, regardless of color. The green square (state 25) is an inactive splitter, and the other states are just splitters with signals inside them and have no special behavior. Splitters can only receive green signals, and magenta signals will just destroy them.
In Hutton32 and Nobili32, if a splitter receives a signal from an arrow and the arrow on the opposite side is pointing in the same direction, it will skip to the other side in one step without splitting it. (the 3 extra states in those rules just do that)

Construction
If a signal arrow points to an empty cell, it will turn into state 1 (the red circle), which will turn into one of the stable components after a few generations. Other signals can influence which state it turns into. Here is cell-coders.rle, which shows the various operations:

Code: Select all

x = 60, y = 66, rule = JvN29
18.2pA.3pA.pA3.pA7.2pA2.2pA2.2pA2.3pA.2pA3.2pA$17.pA3.pA3.pA3.pA6.pA
3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.pA3.pA.pA.pA$17.pA3.2pA2.pA3.pA6.pA3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.2pA
2.pA.pA2.pA$17.pA3.pA3.pA3.pA6.pA3.pA2.pA.pA.pA.pA3.2pA4.pA$18.2pA.3pA
.3pA.3pA5.2pA2.2pA2.2pA2.3pA.pA.pA.2pA5$4IM3.I14.M28I3.I$44.I$M3IM3.J
$32.20I3.J$IM2IM3.K23.2JK5.I3.I$32.JIJ$2IMIM3.L23.2JK$23.M8IpAIJ$I2MI
M3.Q2$3I2M3.R$32.20I3.K$IMI2M3.S23.JIJ6.I2.I$32.2JK$2I3M3.T14.M8IpAIpA
2$I4M3.pA2$33.19I3.L$33.JIJ6.I.I$33.2JK$23.M9IpAIJ4$33.19I3.Q$33.J3.pA
4.2I.I$33.J.2IJ$23.M9IpAIpAIpA6$33.19I3.R$23.M9IpAIpA7.2I4$33.19I3.S$
33.J.JIJ4.I.2I$33.J.2JK$23.M9IpAIpAIJ6$33.19I3.T$23.M9IpAIpAIpA4.3I6$
33.19I3.pA$23.M9IpAIpAIpAIpA.4I!
I think Hunting is right and the rules of JvN29 make intuitive sense (probably about the same as Hensel notation), but are hard to explain to someone else (sorry if my explanation is unclear).
Why do I continually get stable patterns from random soups?
That's the nature of signal rules.

When you create a random soup in JvN29, it is a mix of signal wires, powered or unpowered. Then they lose all signals and become stable.

HelicopterCat3
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by HelicopterCat3 » December 1st, 2020, 3:08 pm

How do you simulate Non-Totalistic Isotropic rules in custom rule tables?

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bubblegum
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by bubblegum » December 1st, 2020, 3:39 pm

HelicopterCat3 wrote:
December 1st, 2020, 3:08 pm
How do you simulate Non-Totalistic Isotropic rules in custom rule tables?
symmetries:rotate4reflect
Order: N,NE,E,SE,S,SW,W,NW
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July 2nd, 2020, 8:33 pm
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anything

Schiaparelliorbust
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Schiaparelliorbust » December 2nd, 2020, 6:27 am

Is there any way of simulating range-3 Margolus rules? A while ago I tried making a reversible Margolus rule with rotational symmetry where the population can both grow and shrink, but it always ended up exploding boringly. I think range-3 Margolus rules could be more interesting with the same properties.
Hunting's language (though he doesn't want me to call it that)
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HelicopterCat3
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by HelicopterCat3 » December 2nd, 2020, 10:00 am

bubblegum wrote:
December 1st, 2020, 3:39 pm
HelicopterCat3 wrote:
December 1st, 2020, 3:08 pm
How do you simulate Non-Totalistic Isotropic rules in custom rule tables?
symmetries:rotate4reflect
Order: N,NE,E,SE,S,SW,W,NW
So if I want to have B3, I have to list every neighborhood of 3? Is there any way to simplify it with variables?

Hunting
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Hunting » December 2nd, 2020, 10:47 am

Schiaparelliorbust wrote:
November 26th, 2020, 3:13 am
Lightspeed travel is possible in the vacuum with supports, not just along wires.
That's essentially wires.

Hunting
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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Post by Hunting » December 2nd, 2020, 10:48 am

HelicopterCat3 wrote:
December 2nd, 2020, 10:00 am
bubblegum wrote:
December 1st, 2020, 3:39 pm
HelicopterCat3 wrote:
December 1st, 2020, 3:08 pm
How do you simulate Non-Totalistic Isotropic rules in custom rule tables?
symmetries:rotate4reflect
Order: N,NE,E,SE,S,SW,W,NW
So if I want to have B3, I have to list every neighborhood of 3? Is there any way to simplify it with variables?
Yes AFAIK but you can simplify the process with a simple python script.

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