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Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 14th, 2020, 6:38 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 4:56 am
By inter-syllable cluster I mean a cluster involving a coda and an onset (eg "a*nt*i"), and I didn't include a rhotic in my proposal because there's a lot of them and I didn't want to choose. I don't think a constrastive postalveolar stop would be a good idea, but /ʃ/ should work. The only problems with that are that it might mess up the sandhi system (although that might already have problems with the lack of phonemic /ɲ/) and that we don't have a Latin letter for it (<q> is free, but that would probably look really weird).
How does our sandhi system work? What is the contrastive postalveolar stop? None of the sounds I mentioned are plosives.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 14th, 2020, 6:50 am
by fluffykitty
I dunno. Maybe changing manner of articulation?
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 6:38 am
What is the contrastive postalveolar stop?
A postalveolar stop that is distinguished from an alveolar stop.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 6:38 am
None of the sounds I mentioned are plosives.
Yeah, that's true. If we do have /ʃ/ we could use <z> for it since we don't have /z/.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 14th, 2020, 7:10 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 6:50 am
I dunno. Maybe changing manner of articulation?
I think sandhi should just be for pronunciation. Something like French liaison perhaps? I also think there should be sandhi for two consonants.
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 6:50 am
A postalveolar stop that is distinguished from an alveolar stop.
I just realized then, we don't have /t/ or /d/?
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 6:50 am
Yeah, that's true. If we do have /ʃ/ we could use <z> for it since we don't have /z/.
Ok, that's fine by me.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 14th, 2020, 3:39 pm
by fluffykitty
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 7:10 am
I think sandhi should just be for pronunciation. Something like French liaison perhaps?
I think we should use it in some grammatical affixes, like verb conjugation and stuff.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 7:10 am
I also think there should be sandhi for two consonants.
Stuff like /mk/->/ŋk/ or something else?
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 7:10 am
I just realized then, we don't have /t/ or /d/?
/t/ exists, but it doesn't contrast with a postalveolar stop.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 14th, 2020, 4:32 pm
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 3:39 pm
I think we should use it in some grammatical affixes, like verb conjugation and stuff.
Sounds good. Should there be sandhi at a distance, i.e. sounds not right next to each other will still influence each other?
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 3:39 pm
Stuff like /mk/->/ŋk/ or something else?
Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind.
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 3:39 pm
/t/ exists, but it doesn't contrast with a postalveolar stop.
Should it be an allophone then?
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 14th, 2020, 5:07 pm
by fluffykitty
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 4:32 pm
Sounds good. Should there be sandhi at a distance, i.e. sounds not right next to each other will still influence each other?
Maybe.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 4:32 pm
Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind.
Okay.
[t̠] will probably be an allophone of /t/ next to /ʃ/.
Should we finalize the phonology/phonotactics/orthography as my previous post, but with /ʃ/ <z> with affricate form /tʃ/? Also, I just noticed that I accidentally allowed coda nasal+fricative rather than nasal+affricate there. Also, what do you think of
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 13th, 2020, 5:21 pm
Other possible ideas are allowing (potentially non-matching) fricative+stop clusters in the coda as well, and permitting /l/ as a syllable nucleus.
?
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 5:06 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 5:07 pm
[t̠] will probably be an allophone of /t/ next to /ʃ/.
AFAIK, the [t̠] is the dental t, and on
the Wikipedia pulmonic consonant chart, /t/ sounds almost indistinguishable from /d/. [t̠] still sounds like normal t, as in take. What do you mean by "next to"?
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 14th, 2020, 5:07 pm
Should we finalize the phonology/phonotactics/orthography as my previous post, but with /ʃ/ <z> with affricate form /tʃ/? Also, I just noticed that I accidentally allowed coda nasal+fricative rather than nasal+affricate there. Also, what do you think of
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 13th, 2020, 5:21 pm
Other possible ideas are allowing (potentially non-matching) fricative+stop clusters in the coda as well, and permitting /l/ as a syllable nucleus.
?
So <z> is /ʃ/ and tz is /tʃ/? I'm kind of neutral on allowing fricative + stop clusters. I assume by non-matching you mean their place of articulation doesn't need to be the same. /l/ as a syllable nucleus sounds good. Good thing you you realized that allowed coda nasal + fricative instead of nasal + affricate. The former sound weird.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
by fluffykitty
I copied it from the symbol for the voiceless postalveolar plosive on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless ... r_plosives. I'm pretty sure the chart /t/ and /d/ being similar is just a quirk of how the voicing distinction works in English.
Immediately following or preceding.
Yes.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:06 am
I'm kind of neutral on allowing fricative + stop clusters. I assume by non-matching you mean their place of articulation doesn't need to be the same.
Yes.
Okay, so that's a legal nucleus, and syllabic /l/ cannot be immediately followed or preceded by another /l/. Should we move on to making words and stuff now?
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:06 am
Good thing you you realized that allowed coda nasal + fricative instead of nasal + affricate.
The former sound weird.
Yep.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 5:36 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
How does it work in English?
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
Immediately following or preceding.
Could you give an example please?
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:06 am
I'm kind of neutral on allowing fricative + stop clusters. I assume by non-matching you mean their place of articulation doesn't need to be the same.
Yes.
Do you want them or not?
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
Okay, so that's a legal nucleus, and syllabic /l/ cannot be immediately followed or preceded by another /l/. Should we move on to making words and stuff now?
I think we should do a complete recap first.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 6:15 am
by fluffykitty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortis_and_lenis
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:36 am
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
Immediately following or preceding.
Could you give an example please?
<aztetze> has both /t/s moved to postalveolar position.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:36 am
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:06 am
I'm kind of neutral on allowing fricative + stop clusters. I assume by non-matching you mean their place of articulation doesn't need to be the same.
Yes.
Do you want them or not?
Yes.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:36 am
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
Should we move on to making words and stuff now?
I think we should do a complete recap first.
Sounds are /aeiouy/ /ptck/ /fsʃçx/ /mnŋ/ /lwj/. Legal diphthongs are /ai/ /ei/ /oi/ /au/ /eu/.
/ŋ/ is written as <ng> when not followed by /k/ and <n> otherwise. /ç/ is written with <h>, /ʃ/ is written with <z>, and everything else is written with its IPA character.
Syllable onsets can be:
- Any single consonant
- Any affricate (/pf/ /ts/ /tʃ/ /cç/ /kx/)
- Stop or fricative followed by /l/
- Fricative or nasal followed by /w/
Syllable codas can be:
- Any single consonant other than /w/ or /j/
- Any affricate (/pf/ /ts/ /tʃ/ /cç/ /kx/) (I also forgot this one in the last summary post)
- Nasal followed by matching stop or fricative (this can produce [ɲ] but only non-contrastively)
- Fricative followed by stop (not necessarily matching)
Restrictions on inter-syllable clusters:
- Affricates cannot be followed by stops
- Nasals followed by stops must match the stop ([ɲ] appears again)
Syllable nuclei can be any vowel or diphthong, or /l/ if the nucleus is not adjacent to another /l/ or another syllable's nucleus.
If we're moving on to syntax and stuff, here's some things I think we should do:
- Make the word for "good" the same as the word for "edible" (and maybe have more food metaphors while we're at it)
- SOV word order
- Split case marking across determiner and noun (like in German)
- Use auxiliary verbs
- Allow omission of subject pronouns by marking person and number on verbs
- Sandhi with grammatical affixes
- Affixes for deriving agent nouns and similar from verbs (eg English "-er", "-ee", but for more arguments like "receiver", "tool", "source", etc)
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 9:45 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
Sounds are /aeiouy/ /ptck/ /fsʃçx/ /mnŋ/ /lwj/. Legal diphthongs are /ai/ /ei/ /oi/ /au/ /eu/.
/ŋ/ is written as <ng> when not followed by /k/ and <n> otherwise. /ç/ is written with <h>, /ʃ/ is written with <z>, and everything else is written with its IPA character.
Syllable onsets can be:
- Any single consonant
- Any affricate (/pf/ /ts/ /tʃ/ /cç/ /kx/)
- Stop or fricative followed by /l/
- Fricative or nasal followed by /w/
Syllable codas can be:
- Any single consonant other than /w/ or /j/
- Any affricate (/pf/ /ts/ /tʃ/ /cç/ /kx/) (I also forgot this one in the last summary post)
- Nasal followed by matching stop or fricative (this can produce [ɲ] but only non-contrastively)
- Fricative followed by stop (not necessarily matching)
Restrictions on inter-syllable clusters:
- Affricates cannot be followed by stops
- Nasals followed by stops must match the stop ([ɲ] appears again)
Syllable nuclei can be any vowel or diphthong, or /l/ if the nucleus is not adjacent to another /l/ or another syllable's nucleus.
If we're moving on to syntax and stuff, here's some things I think we should do:
- Make the word for "good" the same as the word for "edible" (and maybe have more food metaphors while we're at it)
- SOV word order
- Split case marking across determiner and noun (like in German)
- Use auxiliary verbs
- Allow omission of subject pronouns by marking person and number on verbs
- Sandhi with grammatical affixes
- Affixes for deriving agent nouns and similar from verbs (eg English "-er", "-ee", but for more arguments like "receiver", "tool", "source", etc)
All sounds good to me, but I need clarification on some things.
[*]Make the word for "good" the same as the word for "edible" (and maybe have more food metaphors while we're at it)
Why this?
[*]Split case marking across determiner and noun (like in German)
Will /l/ as a nucleus b like, say, ablto?
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 10:02 am
by Hunting
I like "I CA investigate" word order, because stack-based languages.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 3:16 pm
by fluffykitty
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 9:45 am
All sounds good to me, but I need clarification on some things.
[*]Make the word for "good" the same as the word for "edible" (and maybe have more food metaphors while we're at it)
Why this?
Why not?
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 9:45 am
[*]Split case marking across determiner and noun (like in German)
German doesn't (usually) completely mark case on either the article or the noun, but the combination of both (usually) completely determines the case.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 9:45 am
Will /l/ as a nucleus b like, say, ablto?
Yes.
Hunting wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 10:02 am
I like "I CA investigate" word order, because stack-based languages.
That's SOV.
We really should have an off-thread place to track grammar and words and stuff. If we do that, I think we should use userpages on Lifewiki, since everyone here either has or can get an account.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 3:29 pm
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:16 pm
German doesn't (usually) completely mark case on either the article or the noun, but the combination of both (usually) completely determines the case.
I'm pretty sure I understand you, but I'd still like an example. I take mandatory German classes at school, but they started teaching me at level A2 last year, when all I'd known from my previous two years was almost completely vocabulary. I don't understand anything.
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:16 pm
We really should have an off-thread place to track grammar and words and stuff. If we do that, I think we should use userpages on Lifewiki, since everyone here either has or can get an account.
I agree. Then Hunting can also see our progress.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 3:44 pm
by fluffykitty
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:29 pm
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:16 pm
German doesn't (usually) completely mark case on either the article or the noun, but the combination of both (usually) completely determines the case.
I'm pretty sure I understand you, but I'd still like an example. I take mandatory German classes at school, but they started teaching me at level A2 last year, when all I'd known from my previous two years was almost completely vocabulary. I don't understand anything.
I just checked the Wikipedia page about German noun declension, and apparently that doesn't actually happen. Any case information on the noun is also coded on the article. Maybe we could do that, but we should also have more significant inflection on the noun than in German.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:29 pm
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:16 pm
We really should have an off-thread place to track grammar and words and stuff. If we do that, I think we should use userpages on Lifewiki, since everyone here either has or can get an account.
I agree. Then Hunting can also see our progress.
Okay. Whose userspace will we use?
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 3:58 pm
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:44 pm
I just checked the Wikipedia page about German noun declension, and apparently that doesn't actually happen. Any case information on the noun is also coded on the article. Maybe we could do that, but we should also have more significant inflection on the noun than in German.
The should we have suffixes? Or maybe changing a short bit at the end of a word? Like there could be a "plain" form and every other case form is based on that.
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:44 pm
Okay. Whose userspace will we use?
Maybe everyone can explain their opinions on their own pages. Alternatively, people could tell their opinions on this thread and that could be written down by a single user. I could do it, but if anyone else wants to, go ahead.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 4:04 pm
by fluffykitty
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:58 pm
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:44 pm
I just checked the Wikipedia page about German noun declension, and apparently that doesn't actually happen. Any case information on the noun is also coded on the article. Maybe we could do that, but we should also have more significant inflection on the noun than in German.
The should we have suffixes? Or maybe changing a short bit at the end of a word? Like there could be a "plain" form and every other case form is based on that.
Probably a mix of the two because of sandhi. Should we have a small case system like German or Latin or a big case system like Finnish or Hungarian? I'm leaning towards a small case system.
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 3:44 pm
Okay. Whose userspace will we use?
Maybe everyone can explain their opinions on their own pages. Alternatively, people could tell their opinions on this thread and that could be written down by a single user. I could do it, but if anyone else wants to, go ahead.
[/quote]
I'm fine with you doing it.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 4:23 pm
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 4:04 pm
Probably a mix of the two because of sandhi. Should we have a small case system like German or Latin or a big case system like Finnish or Hungarian? I'm leaning towards a small case system.
By big or small I guess you mean many or few cases. I think small would be better. 4-6 cases should be okay.
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 4:04 pm
I'm fine with you doing it.
Ok then, list your opinions and I'll write them down. I'll also keep track of progress.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 15th, 2020, 4:54 pm
by fluffykitty
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 4:23 pm
By big or small I guess you mean many or few cases. I think small would be better. 4-6 cases should be okay.
Okay. According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_hierarchy, a natural six-case system would be nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, and instrumental. Thoughts?
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 4:23 pm
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 4:04 pm
I'm fine with you doing it.
Ok then, list your opinions and I'll write them down. I'll also keep track of progress.
- Make the word for "good" the same as the word for "edible" (and maybe have more food metaphors while we're at it)
- SOV word order
- Split case marking across determiner and noun (like in German)
- Use auxiliary verbs
- Allow omission of subject pronouns by marking person and number on verbs
- Sandhi with grammatical affixes
- Affixes for deriving agent nouns and similar from verbs (eg English "-er", "-ee", but for more arguments like "receiver", "tool", "source", etc)
- Six-case system as mentioned above (NAGD, locative, instrumental)
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 16th, 2020, 4:47 am
by SquishyBoi
hi
i'm too lazy to read the entire thread so would it be a bother if you could make a post showing the current phonology for this language/conlang/whatever?
ok thanks
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 16th, 2020, 4:50 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
SquishyBoi wrote: ↑November 16th, 2020, 4:47 am
hi
i'm too lazy to read the entire thread so would it be a bother if you could make a post showing the current phonology for this language/conlang/whatever?
ok thanks
Look a few posts above.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 16th, 2020, 4:56 am
by fluffykitty
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 4:23 pm
Ok then, list your opinions and I'll write them down. I'll also keep track of progress.
Link?
We should start making actual words and stuff. Who wants to start? Also, here's a table we can use for sandhi variations: (Parenthesized entries only occur as mutations, so fricative /w/ is /f/ not /x/)
Code: Select all
nasal m n (n) (n) ng
approximant w l (l) j (w)
fricative f s z h x
stop p t (t) c k
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 16th, 2020, 5:01 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 16th, 2020, 4:56 am
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 15th, 2020, 4:23 pm
Ok then, list your opinions and I'll write them down. I'll also keep track of progress.
Link?
We should start making actual words and stuff. Who wants to start? Also, here's a table we can use for sandhi variations: (Parenthesized entries only occur as mutations, so fricative /w/ is /f/ not /x/)
Code: Select all
nasal m n (n) (n) ng
approximant w l (l) j (w)
fricative f s z h x
stop p t (t) c k
I need to get a trusted flag? Correct me if I'm wrong. I just asked for it. Could you also explain what exactly the tables says please?
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 16th, 2020, 5:03 am
by fluffykitty
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 16th, 2020, 5:01 am
I need to get a trusted flag? Correct me if I'm wrong. I just asked for it.
Yep.
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: ↑November 16th, 2020, 5:01 am
Could you also explain what exactly the tables says please?
It lists phonemes and their analogs in other manners of articulation (ish), since we'll probably have stuff like "change to fricative" or something for sandhi.
Re: Let's create a good language!
Posted: November 16th, 2020, 5:14 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
fluffykitty wrote: ↑November 16th, 2020, 5:03 am
Yep.
It lists phonemes and their analogs in other manners of articulation (ish), since we'll probably have stuff like "change to fricative" or something for sandhi.
What words should we focus on now?