(27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

[muzik]

Above questions are still unanswered.
(not above anymore I guess. Last page)

Also, what exactly did grind progress on this to a halt? I kind of need an oversimplification of what was mentioned previously.

[biggiemac]

what exactly did grind progress on this to a halt? I kind of need an oversimplification of what was mentioned previously.

Okay, time for that explanation I promised earlier but neglected to post.

When engineering a large spaceships from building blocks, it is important to know whether you have enough building blocks to do anything you might want to do. A lot of the time, if you have almost everything, you can get clever and solve the problem with a longer process. But here we are way short of having enough.

I like to think from a group theory perspective, where a group is just a bunch of "things you can do" to change something. An intuitive bit of group theory is to think about a Rubik's cube. You can do any of the turns no matter what the state of the cube is. The "Rubik's group" is all the reachable patterns of colors. Just knowing what the "things you can do" are, it isn't always clear what patterns are reachable and which are impossible. But if you've played with a Rubik's cube much, you realize that certain things really are impossible without peeling off the stickers or pulling the cube apart.

For example, take a solved cube and turn one of the edge pieces backward. It turns out to be impossible to solve that cube. Alternatively, take one of the corner pieces and rotate it. Unless you rotate it 3 times (returning it to the original state), that cube also becomes impossible to solve.

So if we allow disassembling and reassembling the cube as a "thing we can do" we get what I will call the "cheater group." It is clearly bigger than the Rubik's group, because you can get every reachable pattern but also a large number of unreachable patterns.

Say we start at an unreachable pattern but don't know it. We would try to solve the cube, only to run into a problem near the end, either a corner twisted out of whack or an edge combination that is impossible to fix. By attempting to solve this cube, we have explored one of the "cosets" of the Rubik's group within the cheater group. A coset in layman's terms is just a copy of one group inside a bigger group, where you can't get to where you want using only the smaller group's actions.

Back to spaceships.

The cheater group in spaceship world comes from drawing whatever climber combinations you want. These usually give plenty of rake options, rephasing options, etc. But once we have a spaceship started, building any arbitrary new climber combination is often impossible. Instead, we need to build climber combinations by doing things to the climbers we already have. These "things we can do" make up a much smaller group; let's call it the "climber group".

The task is to figure out how big the climber group is. Once this is done, we can determine whether rakes and things drawn from the cheater group are in different cosets of the climber group. If they are in different cosets, nothing easy will turn one into another.

But we can sometimes get clever and find ways to move between cosets. Back to the Rubik's cube, say the cube was loose enough that you could rotate a corner piece without taking the whole thing apart. Then with only a little bit of cheating, you could explore 3 times as many options as the Rubik's group. This is a group in between the Rubik's group and the cheater group. You can now move freely between cosets of the Rubik's group in this intermediate group. But there is still the edge-flip issue, and you haven't figured out a way to move between the cosets of this intermediate group in the cheater group without breaking your cube. In spaceships, sometimes you have to get clever only once, but sometimes there are just too many cosets and nothing to address all of them. This is roughly what happened here, and so I got discouraged and stopped trying as hard.

The groups in spaceship world are finite and abelian, which means they can be thought of as high-dimensional modular arithmetic groups. Modular arithmetic is loosely anything where you do math as normal but wrap around once you get to the end. In 1D this could be a clock; after 23:59:59 comes 0:00:00. In 2D I guess you could just have two stopped clocks that you move on your control instead of moving in time (because I don't want to think about 2D time). The number of seconds in a day might be different for each clock, and the number of seconds you are allowed to move the clocks might have some funky restrictions..

I don't know if I can go much further at this point and stay understandable, so I will pause here and ask if there are any questions on what I've put so far.

[muzik]

So essentially a (27,1)c/72 spaceship definitely exists, but it's impossible to know for sure that the currently known proposed bits and pieces can actually be used to build a spaceship of that speed, but if they can't (for example, the helix won't work), you can discover a different version of this pattern that will?


I know what you're trying to say, but putting it in text is even harder than probably finding the ship.



How about the (13,1)c/31 ship? Has that been put aside as well I'm taking it?

[simsim314]

This is roughly what happened here, and so I got discouraged and stopped trying as hard.

I generally encourage people to invest into universal ship, which is much more ambitious project but on the other hand, not way more complex, and is done only once in history and solves all the possible speeds with single design. So in this sense I don't see why anyone would invest so much effort in some specific single speed.

On the other hand - if you already want to work on this project, I think there is no good reason this project would fail, if you have some specific design or question that didn't work or you couldn't figure out, you always welcome to ask on the forum - there are very smart people here, and I see no chance this project cannot be completed, but it definitely could be harder than it looks.

[muzik]

I generally encourage people to invest into universal ship, which is much more ambitious project but on the other hand, not way more complex, and is done only once in history and solves all the possible speeds with single design. So in this sense I don't see why anyone would invest so much effort in some specific single speed.

Thing is, if you have technology that can simulate an infinite range of speeds, then all of those speeds are trivial since they're just really close variants on another ship. Whilst if you can explicitly construct or search for a spaceship which travels at a certain speed, and can't be adjusted to travel at any other ones, it's a lot more notable and surprising, there's definitely a word for this that's not coming to me right now.

Not to mention that the explicitly constructed spaceships are sometimes smaller than any possible universal speed technology.

[biggiemac]

I guess one can say on faith that a spaceship of any sensible speed probably exists, just because of the mountain of possibilities.

But this caterpillar is the approach that we have available to us now. If a (27,1)c/72 caterpillar exists, it only does by solving a cosets problem that we don't have a solution to. It might be that there is an easy solution with tricks I haven't seen. There might be no easy solution, but a way to do things by increasing the ship's size by a factor of a few million. It could even be that there isn't a solution, so this climber might not even be a part of any eventual (27,1)c/72 spaceship.

The helix itself is not the problem at all. It is rather getting the climbers to make the outputs you need, instead of the outputs they make more readily from within their coset.

The (13,1)c/31 ship has a different slew of problems. My proposed drawing in that thread relies on finding an absurd period multiplier, which might exist but I didn't spend long enough searching for to find. It might also be possible to use filters like Gabriel's Caterpillar to reach an arbitrary multiplier, but since everything is in relative motion my intuition says they wouldn't be repeatedly usable, which would defeat their purpose. If someone (you?) can find a way to run some B Heptominos on the track really messily, such that the mess has spatial period at least (208,16), which is 16 times (13,1), then we can move forward. From there we can try to build a spaceship, but it would likely be bigger than the Caterpillar and thus not very easy to watch.

In both these cases, it is likely that the universal ship will be smaller.

[simsim314]

@muzik well if we already had a universal speed ship, and we only wanted to find something smaller or more elegant and surprising I would agree. But because those are currently "competing" over the time of the "GOL community" hive mind, I don't think there is a real reason to prefer specific speed construction over universal speed.

Until recently we didn't know even how to build single adjustable speed. Now that we have a proof and design concept, that can move at any desirable speed and slope, although I agree that every specific speed becomes less valuable, but the design of such concept is one of the most groundbreaking designs in GOL, and way way more significant than some specific speed ship.

The only project I think is more important or more or less of the same significance as universal ship is quadratic replicator. But this is much more ambitious project, which by the way not that more complex than other geminoid projects.

I do understand that making something less ambitious is much probable to get done, yet I still have my agenda (although I myself also admittedly not always follow).

[muzik]

I've been thinking about a 500-cell or so "elementary" linear replicator, probably based on the pre-pulsar, but that's stuff for a new thread.


I know of a few rules extremely similar to normal Life with replicators and failed replicators:

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 8, rule = B34w_S23
bo2$3o3$6bo2$5b3o!

Code: Select all

x = 6, y = 6, rule = B34tw5y_S23
bo$2o$2o2$4bo$4b2o!

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x = 7, y = 7, rule = B3578/S23
3o$obo2bo$3o2$4b3o$4bobo$4b3o!

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x = 9, y = 3, rule = B3578/S23
2o5b2o$2o5b2o$2o5b2o!

don't think they'll be of much use though.

[simsim314]

@muzik BTW since when adjustability is a "bad thing"? Would you prefer to buy a computer that can do "any computational algorithm" or calculator that will do only basic calculus? Actually the fact that the design is not adjustable shows inherent flow in the design. Adjustable and universal design is by definition better than single limited design. I do agree that when you have a PC and not calculator, the calculator app, is less valuable.

@biggiemac We do have universal speed design. It's a bit more complex, and I'm kinda lazy to work on it, but we do have a way (and thus a proof) to build any valid speed&slope ship. Actually as the theory concerned the only missing piece of the puzzle was the universal helix. After we found it, we left with execution only, nothing conceptual is left to find.

[muzik]

It's not that it's that bad, it's just that it makes a bunch of speeds not notable and trivial. If we can find technology that relies on one speed then the speeds are just a bit more notable than otherwise.



Back on the topic of the caterpillar: I still have the unanswered question of the cell count and shape. Being an oblique non-engineerable caterpillar, I'm going to assume it'll resemble the waterbear on some way, shape or form. Will it be made of big triangles like the waterbear? If so, how many? Since we probably aren't far in enough into the construction phase we probably have no way of knowing; it'll probably just be three main triangles again. Although my brain keeps thinking of other random numbers.

I hereby place my baseless guess of 5 main triangles.

[simsim314]

@muzik so you prefer worse technology to maintain some feeling of "magic" about each speed? This makes no sense to me. General approach is always better, and will always make specific and limited approaches obsolete at the end. This what happend to 31c/240 in the end - caterloopillar was just better technology, so it showed to be more general and more efficient.

I do find the old technology to be somewhat amusing, It's sort of nostalgy and it has some interesting feeling to it, but no one would return to the days where there were no conduits, and people just looked at soups and hoped to find something. And yes any specific herschel conduit made any specific oscillation period less valuable but it proved all period above 60 exists. This is very important result, much more important than p144 oscillator or the new p16 found lately.

[biggiemac]

@simsim I am pretty confident that the caterloopillar above c/4 is a couple orders of magnitude larger in bounding box and cell count than the caterloopillars that currently exist. I am very curious if a 17c/45 caterloopillar would actually beat the best pi-climber ship (the unbuilt little brother of Gabriel's Caterpillar). So these standalone spaceships still have a chance to be the best (a,b)c/d spaceships of the near future.

As for different projects dividing the community's attention, I don't find that to be a bad thing. I doubt many active members understand the above-c/4 plan to the extent you do, so, unfortunate though it may be, having the knowledge and work concentrated in you is possibly the best way to get that project done. The design process doesn't decouple into separate tasks particularly well; to do anything very helpful one needs to know the big picture inside and out. With how ambitious this plan is, I don't know that very many people are willing and able to digest the big picture to reach a point of helpfulness.

I guess I want to work within my strengths, which I early on defined to be these caterpillar challenges.

@muzik, the shape depends heavily on what we can use to solve the cosets problem. The number of helix spaceships determined the number of triangles in the Waterbear - it just so happened that the constant reset cost was about the same as 1 helix spaceship at close range, so the 10 helix spaceships naturally divided into {4, (reset + 3), (reset + 3)}. If the helix spaceship cost is far greater due to a clunky cosets solution, then we might want to reset more frequently. If the only usable construction blocks require some disgusting number of tracks like 40*8 (8 tracks per rake, one rake per coset), then we are certainly not building 320 new tracks per reset, and we might never be able to pull of even one reset.

At any rate, the waterbear had 6 spaceships for the helix, 2 for fanout (made easier by the tracks burning still lives as easily as gliders), and 2 to turn a single track into a self-sustaining cluster. Here the self-sustaining cluster is at least 8 tracks, so optimistically we need 15 for the helix, 4 for fanout and 7 more to get it self-sustaining. More realistically I am guessing a total of 30. So that is 3 times as many as the waterbear, and the triangles are going to likely get twice as big and carry four times the cells per segment (making resets harder as well). So assuming there is an elegant solution to the problem I keep insisting is a dealbreaker, we are looking at about 20 times more cells than the Waterbear, and a number of triangles between 1 and 30 (extremely implementation-dependent).

I could have made the Waterbear with 1 triangle, but it would have been closer to 700K rows tall, instead of 30K. So a 1-triangle version, if necessary, would be much bigger than a few-triangle version. Why then didn't I use more triangles, like 9 instead of 3? I could have, I could have made the breakdown {2, (1 + reset)*8}. But because of the fixed cost of a reset, those 9 triangles would each be about half the size of the 3 in the waterbear, actually making the ship bigger by about 50%. It's just an optimization problem, and where the optimum lies depends on a lot that is still currently unknown.

[muzik]

It's still kind of interesting to actually build inefficient stuff manually instead of having something even more efficient do everything for you. It's sort of a purist type thing (although, personally, I'm not sure I would want to simulate a whole caterpillar on a grid pattern tablecloth using seeds and nuts).

Like cooking. You can buy ready-made foods made in factories (universal constructor ships), or you can cook stuff at home instead (climber-based ships).


All down to a matter of opinions really.

[biggiemac]

Any answer to this problem will give a way forward:

Code: Select all

x = 40, y = 28, rule = LifeHistory
3D27.3D$.D29.D$.3D27.3D3$24.14B$24.14B$24.14B$24.14B$24.14B$2.A21.14B
$.A22.14B$.3A20.14B$24.14B$24.14B$24.14B$3.3A18.9B3A$2.A2.A18.8BA2.A$
.A4.A17.7BA4.A$3.A29.A2$4.2A28.2A$3.A.A27.A.A$3.A.A27.A.A2$9.A29.A$7.
A29.A$7.2A28.2A!

Is there any sacrificial constellation / oscillator that can be placed in the blue region to reproduce the reaction? The ash is less important, so long as the Herschel is there at generation 37. I don't care how expensive or complex the solution is as long as something works. It seems to me like the reaction is extremely sensitive to any change of the glider into something else, and won't grow a Herschel naturally if the object is anything I can make stationary. I can't find fuses, etc that spit out a Herschel when burned, but maybe someone knows stuff I don't that will help here.

It is possible to start a little further back as well, but the limit there is the glider from the previous Herschel. It must be allowed to release its FNG before striking this hypothetical sacrificial target. That prevents turning it into a spark and making an R pentomino, for example.

Code: Select all

x = 42, y = 31, rule = LifeHistory
.3D27.3D$2.D29.D$2.3D27.3D6$6.A$4.2A$5.2A9$33.A$4.3A25.A.A$3.A2.A25.A
.A5.2A$3.A4.A21.A2.A6.2A$2.2A.2A.A$2.2A.A2.A$4.4A$5.3A$30.3D$2.A28.D$
2A29.3D$.2A!

Are there well known still lives or constellations such that when a spark is added they become a B or an H? I don't know any immediately.

The blue region I drew is rather arbitrary and it could be as large as necessary. All I really need is some elaborate fuse that can be burned time-insensitively. The easier to construct, the better, but again any solution works.

[simsim314]

Maybe I'm missing here something.

What else do you need except forward + backward rakes posted here?

Does the calculus is limited? I mean what limits you from creating stuff equivalent to caterpillar, like this:

Code: Select all

x = 366, y = 1234, rule = B3/S23
48bo$48bo$48bo2$15b3o14$47b3o2$16bo$16bo$16bo12$48bo$48bo$48bo2$15b3o
14$47b3o2$16bo$16bo$16bo12$48bo$48bo$48bo2$15b3o14$47b3o2$16bo$16bo$
16bo12$48bo$48bo$48bo2$15b3o14$47b3o2$16bo$16bo$16bo12$48bo$48bo$48bo
2$15b3o14$47b3o2$16bo$16bo$16bo12$48bo$48bo$48bo2$15b3o14$47b3o2$16bo$
16bo$16bo12$48bo$48bo$48bo2$15b3o13$47b3o$47b3o$46bobobo$16bo28b2o3b2o
$15b3o27b3ob3o$14bo3bo26b3ob3o$14bo3bo26bo5bo$14b2ob2o26b2o3b2o$14bo3b
o26b2o3b2o$13bo5bo22bo11bo$13b2o3b2o22b2o9b2o$14bo3bo18b2o5bo7bo5b2o$
9b2o11b2o12bob4o13b4obo$7bo3bo9bo3bo11bob4o3bo3bo3b4obo$6bo5bo7bo5bo8b
obo3b2o4bobo4b2o3bobo$4bob2o3b2o7b2o3b2obo6b2o7bobo3bobo7b2o$3bobo2b7o
3b7o2bobo5b2obo5b3o3b3o5bob2o$5bo6bo2bobo2bo6bo9bobo17bobo$3b2o7b3o3b
3o7b2o8bo19bo$4bobo6bo5bo6bobo$5bobo17bobo$6bo19bo3$47b3o2$16bo$16bo$
16bo12$48bo$48bo$25bo15bo6bo$24bobobo13b2o$15b3o5bo5bo11b2o$24bo5bo$
25b2obo12$47b3o2$16bo$16bo$16bo8$53bo$54bo$52b3o2$48bo$48bo$48bo2$15b
3o14$47b3o2$16bo$16bo$16bo3$63bobo$64b2o$64bo7$48bo$48bo$48bo2$15b3o9$
15b3o$14bo3bo$14bo3bo$12b2ob3ob2o$11bobo5bobo$11bo9bo25b3o$11b2obo3bob
2o54bo$13b2o3b2o54bobo$75b2o6$10bo4b3o4bo$8b2o13b2o$6b2o3bo9bo3b2o$5bo
5bo9bo5bo2$4bo5bo11bo5bo2$5bo4bobo7bobo4bo20bo$7b3o2b2o5b2o2b3o22bo$
11bo2bo3bo2bo26bo$5b2o5b2o5b2o5b2o$5b2o5bo7bo5b2o4$15b3o$14bo3bo$13bo
2bo2bo$12bo3bo3bo$13bob3obo$13b2obob2o66bo$11bobo5bobo65b2o$14bo3bo67b
2o$14bo3bo$10bo11bo$10bo11bo24b3o$12bo7bo$5bo5bo9bo5bo$4bobo3b2o9b2o3b
obo$7bobo4bo3bo4bobo$7bobo2bobo3bobo2bobo$2bo4bo2bo2bobobobo2bo2bo4bo$
2bo4bo3b4o3b4o3bo4bo$3bo3bo4b3o3b3o4bo3bo$4b3o19b3o5$16bo$16bo$16bo31b
o$48bo$48bo2$15b3o$15b3o2$15bobo80bo$99bo$7b2o2b2o7b2o2b2o71b3o$6bobo
3bobo3bobo3bobo$6bo6bo5bo6bo$6bo3bo5bo5bo3bo$7bob3o9b3obo$8bo2b2o7b2o
2bo$10bo2b2o3b2o2bo$10b2o3bobo3b2o$10b2o2bo3bo2b2o$12b2o5b2o26b3o3$16b
o$16bo$16bo6$16bo$16bo$15b3o2$13bo5bo$11bo9bo26bo$10b2o4bo4b2o25bo$9b
2o4b3o4b2o24bo59bobo$10bo2b3ob3o2bo86b2o$11b2obo3bob2o25b3o59bo$12b2o
5b2o26b3o$46bo3bo$46b2ob2o3$16bo22b2o15b2o$9b2o5bo5b2o13bo5b2o7b2o5bo$
10b2o4bo4b2o12bo9bo5bo9bo$5b3o17b3o7bo2b5o2bo5bo2b5o2bo$35bo3bo2bob3o
3b3obo2bo3bo$37bo21bo$37bo4bo11bo4bo$38b2o2bo11bo2b2o$40b2o13b2o$7bo5b
2o3b2o5bo$13b3ob3o$7bo4b3o3b3o4bo$12bo7bo$48bo$16bo31bo$15bobo30bo$14b
o3bo$14bo3bo3$121bo$15b3o30bo70bobo$12bob5obo26b3o70b2o$12b9o26b3o$13b
o5bo$44b9o$40b2obo2bobobo2bob2o$39bobo4bobobo4bobo$5b2o19b2o11bobo2bob
obobobo2bobo$5bo2bob4o5b4obo2bo16bob2ob2obo$6bo2bob5ob5obo2bo14b2o11b
2o$9bo3b3ob3o3bo18b5o3b5o$4bo7bo7bo7bo$2b2o6bob4ob4obo6b2o$2bo6bobob3o
b3obobo6bo$3b3o21b3o$4b2o21b2o13bo5bo5bo$5bo21bo10b3o2bo4bo4bo2b3o$43b
o4bo4bo$38b3obo11bob3o2$15b3o4$16bo$14b2ob2o$14b2ob2o$131bo$132b2o$12b
o7bo110b2o$6b3o2bo9bo2b3o$5b2o3bobo7bobo3b2o$4b2ob2o3bo7bo3b2ob2o$5b2o
b6o5b6ob2o19b3o$6bo2bo13bo2bo$7b2o15b2o$8bo4bo5bo4bo$8bo3bo7bo3bo$10bo
3bo3bo3bo$11b3o5b3o$11b2o7b2o3$15b3o6$48bo$48bo$15b3o30bo2$15bobo$10b
3o2bobo2b3o$143bo$8b2o3bob3obo3b2o119bo$8bo4bo5bo4bo117b3o$8b2o2b2o5b
2o2b2o$13bo5bo$11b3o5b3o$11b2o7b2o4$10bo11bo$9bobo3b3o3bobo$6bob2obo9b
ob2obo20b3o$6bo3bo11bo3bo$6bo19bo9$16bo$15b3o$14bo3bo$14b2ob2o2$48bo$
48bo104bobo$48bo105b2o$154bo$12bo7bo$11bo9bo$11b3ob3ob3o4$5b2o2bobo9bo
bo2b2o$5bob3o2bo7bo2b3obo$8bo15bo$9b2obo7bob2o$2b2o5bo2b2o5b2o2bo5b2o$
bo2bo5bob2o5b2obo5bo2bo$bo2bo5b2o9b2o5bo2bo$2bob2o21b2obo$2bo27bo16b3o
$4b2o21b2o3$16bo$16bo$16bo2$15b3o$15b3o$14bo3bo$14b2ob2o147bo$164bobo$
165b2o$7b2o15b2o$5bo5b2o7b2o5bo$3bo9bo5bo9bo18bo$3bo2b5o2bo5bo2b5o2bo
18bo$3bo3bo2bob3o3b3obo2bo3bo18bo$5bo21bo$5bo4bo11bo4bo$6b2o2bo11bo2b
2o$8b2o13b2o5$16bo$16bo$16bo5$47b3o$16bo$15b3o$15b3o2$12b9o155bo$8b2ob
o2bobobo2bob2o152b2o$7bobo4bobobo4bobo150b2o$7bobo2bobobobobo2bobo$12b
ob2ob2obo$9b2o11b2o$10b5o3b5o5$10bo5bo5bo25bo$6b3o2bo4bo4bo2b3o21bo$
11bo4bo4bo26bo$6b3obo11bob3o9$16bo$15b3o$14b2ob2o$13b2o3b2o$14b2ob2o$
188bo$47b3o139bo$187b3o4$12bo3bo3bo$10b2o4bo4b2o$11b2o3bo3b2o2$6bo19bo
$5bob2o15b2obo$5bobo17bobo$6b3o15b3o$7bo17bo$2b2o8b2o5b2o8b2o$b2obo4bo
2b2o5b2o2bo4bob2o$obobo4bo2bo7bo2bo4bobobo15bo$bob3o5b2o7b2o5b3obo16bo
$48bo5$15b3o$16bo$14b2ob2o$14b2ob2o2$13bo5bo178bobo$13b3ob3o179b2o$
199bo2$8b4o9b4o$7b5o9b5o$5bob5o9b5obo19b3o$3b2o8b2o3b2o8b2o$3b2o7bo2bo
bo2bo7b2o$4bo7b3o3b3o7bo$5b2o19b2o$5b2o19b2o$7bo17bo6$15b3o4$48bo$48bo
$48bo$15b3o$16bo$14b2ob2o$11b11o189bo$8b2o4bobobo4b2o184bobo$8bo5bo3bo
5bo185b2o$8bo15bo$9b2ob3o3b3ob2o$12bo2bobo2bo$12b2obobob2o$12b2o5b2o$
12b3o3b3o4$47b3o$8b2o5b3o5b2o$7bo3bo9bo3bo$8bobo11bobo8$15b3o$14bo3bo$
13bo5bo$12bo3bo3bo$12bo7bo$12bobo3bobo27bo172bo$13b2o3b2o28bo173b2o$
48bo172b2o6$10bo4b3o4bo$10bobo7bobo$7bo2b2o9b2o2bo$6bobo15bobo$5bo3bo
13bo3bo$5bo3bo13bo3bo$6bo2bo13bo2bo$2b2o2bobo15bobo2b2o$7b2o2b2o7b2o2b
2o$4bo7b2o5b2o7bo$o4bo4bobo7bobo4bo4bo14b3o$6bo4bo9bo4bo$b2o2bo21bo2b
2o3$16bo$15bobo$14bo3bo$13b2obob2o$16bo$12bo7bo212bo$12bo2bobo2bo213bo
$12bo2bobo2bo211b3o$12bo7bo$13b2o3b2o$10b2o9b2o$10b2o9b2o25bo$5b2ob4o
9b4ob2o20bo$4bo5bo11bo5bo19bo$5bo21bo$3bob2o3b2ob3ob3ob2o3b2obo$2bo8b
2ob2ob2ob2o8bo$3bo2bo5bobo3bobo5bo2bo$4b2obo5bo5bo5bob2o$6bo19bo5$16bo
$16bo$16bo3$47b3o$16bo$15bobo$14bo3bo$14b2ob2o$13b2obob2o223bobo$8bo3b
2o5b2o3bo219b2o$7b2o3bo2b3o2bo3b2o218bo$6bo7bo3bo7bo$7b2o3bo7bo3b2o$8b
3o11b3o$11bo3bobo3bo$10bo2bo5bo2bo$11b3o5b3o$11bobo5bobo$12b2o5b2o$48b
o$48bo$16bo31bo$16bo$16bo13$256bo$47b3o204bobo$255b2o$15b3o11$48bo$47b
3o$46b2ob2o3$16bo$16bo31bo$16bo29bo3bo$44bo7bo$15b3o26bo7bo$15b3o26b2o
b3ob2o$14bo3bo$14b2ob2o2$37b2o4b2o7b2o4b2o206bo$7b2o15b2o11bobob2o11b
2obobo207b2o$5bo5b2o7b2o5bo12b2o5bobo5b2o209b2o$3bo9bo5bo9bo12b2o3bobo
3b2o$3bo2b5o2bo5bo2b5o2bo5bo7b2o7b2o7bo$3bo3bo2bob3o3b3obo2bo3bo4b2o6b
o4bobo4bo6b2o$5bo21bo6bo7b2o3bobo3b2o7bo$5bo4bo11bo4bo7bobo8bo3bo8bobo
$6b2o2bo11bo2b2o8bo2bo19bo2bo$8b2o13b2o11b2o21b2o3$48bo$48bo$16bo31bo$
16bo$16bo$47b3o$46bo3bo$46b2ob2o2$30b2o$30b2o7bo17bo$37b3o3b2o7b2o3b3o
$36bo4bo2bo7bo2bo4bo$36bo3bo15bo3bo$36bo5b4o5b4o5bo$37b2o4b2o7b2o4b2o$
39b3o13b3o220bo$40b2o13b2o222bo$41bo3bo5bo3bo221b3o$28b3o$15b3o11bobo
10bo2bo5bo2bo$29b2o12bobo5bobo2$48bo$48bo$48bo$30b2o$15b3o12b2o$16bo$
14b2ob2o$11b11o$8b2o4bobobo4b2o23bo$8bo5bo3bo5bo23bo$8bo15bo22bobo$9b
2ob3o3b3ob2o19bo9bo$12bo2bobo2bo22bo9bo$12b2obobob2o20b4ob2ob2ob4o$12b
2o5b2o19b2o4bobobo4b2o$12b3o3b3o18bo5bo2bo2bo5bo$40b2o2b3o3b3o2b2o$43b
o2bo3bo2bo$43bobo5bobo$43bobo5bobo$8b2o5b3o5b2o5b2o$7bo3bo9bo3bo4b2o$
8bobo11bobo263bobo$42bo5bo5bo234b2o$40b2obo4bo4bob2o232bo$39b3obo4bo4b
ob3o$37b2o2b2o11b2o2b2o2$34b2o$33b3o$33bo$33b2o$37b2o$37b2o2$16bo$15bo
bo$14bo3bo$13b2obob2o$16bo$12bo7bo18bo$12bo2bobo2bo18b2o6b3o$12bo2bobo
2bo17bobo$12bo7bo$13b2o3b2o$10b2o9b2o$10b2o9b2o27b2o$5b2ob4o9b4ob2o21b
obo$4bo5bo11bo5bo22bo$5bo21bo$3bob2o3b2ob3ob3ob2o3b2obo271bo$2bo8b2ob
2ob2ob2o8bo268bobo$3bo2bo5bobo3bobo5bo2bo10bo20b2o237b2o$4b2obo5bo5bo
5bob2o7b2o2b2o20b2o$6bo19bo8b2o4b2o18bo$37bo2bobo$36bo4bo$48bo$48bo23b
3o$16bo31bo25bo$16bo56bo$16bo2$84bo$84b2o$83bobo4$95b2o$94bobo$96bo4$
47b3o56b2o$107b2o$15b3o88bo$311bo$312b2o$311b2o$117b3o$119bo$118bo3$
129bo$129b2o$128bobo3$48bo$48bo91b2o$16bo31bo90bobo$16bo124bo$16bo3$
151b2o$152b2o$151bo4$162b3o$164bo$163bo159bo$324bo$322b3o$47b3o124bo$
174b2o$15b3o155bobo4$185b2o$184bobo$186bo4$196b2o$197b2o$196bo2$48bo$
48bo$16bo31bo158b3o$16bo192bo$16bo191bo3$219bo$219b2o$218bobo$333bobo$
334b2o$334bo$230b2o$229bobo$231bo3$47b3o$241b2o$15b3o224b2o$241bo4$
252b3o$254bo$253bo3$264bo$264b2o$263bobo2$48bo$48bo$16bo31bo226b2o$16b
o257bobo$16bo259bo69bo$344bobo$345b2o2$286b2o$287b2o$286bo4$297b3o$
299bo$298bo2$47b3o$309bo$15b3o291b2o$308bobo4$320b2o$319bobo$321bo4$
331b2o$332b2o22bo$331bo25b2o$48bo307b2o$48bo$16bo31bo$16bo325b3o$16bo
327bo$343bo3$354bo$354b2o$353bobo8$47b3o2$15b3o3$363b3o11$48bo$48bo$
16bo31bo$16bo$16bo$364bo$364bo$364bo11$47b3o2$15b3o3$363b3o11$48bo$48b
o$16bo31bo$16bo$16bo$364bo$364bo$364bo11$47b3o2$15b3o3$363b3o11$48bo$
48bo$16bo31bo$16bo$16bo$364bo$364bo$364bo11$47b3o2$15b3o3$363b3o11$48b
o$48bo$16bo31bo$16bo$16bo$364bo$364bo$364bo11$47b3o2$15b3o3$363b3o11$
48bo$48bo$16bo31bo$16bo$16bo$364bo$364bo$364bo!

[codeholic]

I think, that one of, if not the most important thing we need at this stage is to try to find a way to rephase climbers. The simplest way would probably be to find a track that consists of simple (= likely to appear in debris) constellations of still lifes (such as two blocks, for instance). I don't remember exactly now, but I think I tried single blocks, hives, boats and loaves (maybe tubs and ponds too, but I don't remember). I think, blinkers were not on my list, but they would be not as good as still lifes.

EDIT: Another thing that is needed is fanout devices. Not sure if it's worth to develop them, unless there is a good plan for how to do syntheses, and possibility to rephase climbers is crucial part of it. While speaking of syntheses, we still don't have unobtrusive edge-shooting synthesis for HWSS, and I haven't checked if LWSS and MWSS syntheses used for the waterbear can be used for this spaceship's helix.

[biggiemac]

@simsim the large Rubik's cube analogy I posted above was for anyone and not just muzik. There is an extreme limit placed on the construction if we are to use some small number of tracks without finding new ways to rephase. Not only does the base reaction not change the phase of the gliders, but their lanes and delays are also not mobile enough, they are stuck in cosets. We would need 40 different kinds of rakes for one cluster to make any desired output.

Maybe because the spark is so large there really is a way to use Nico's posted rakes to build, say, another cluster with any desired horizontal offset from the parent. That is what the caterpillar piece you posted does - by changing the position of the pi (rephrasing input and output as necessary), one can build the blinker row wherever is needed. Such isn't the case here, even the "new track" built by Nico in his post is limited. If you were to try to adjust it, just play around with where you could get those gliders to be, even do arbitrary rephasings prior to the construction, you'll find it is harshly limited in terms of lane, delay and phase, and thus not possible to make another copy of the construction unit without a new breakthrough. That's why I am looking to find a frozen seed for a track that can be burned at an arbitrary time. That way once the lane is set, we get full freedom over time, a big step in the right direction.

@codeholic I am growing skeptical that a simple constellation will do the trick. Unlike the Waterbear where the glider just deleted part of the active reaction, here the new Herschel is essentially grown out of the glider as it disintegrates. Something not a glider is not going to do that. I want there to be a simple constellation but I am not confident it will be so, so I would be happy with actually anything.

[muzik]

I get herschels right out the butt when I put blinkers in the blue box, but they're nowhere near the red area you specified.

Whether they'd be useful or not (definitely not) I do not know

[wildmyron]

Any answer to this problem will give a way forward:

Code: Select all

x = 40, y = 28, rule = LifeHistory
3D27.3D$.D29.D$.3D27.3D3$24.14B$24.14B$24.14B$24.14B$24.14B$2.A21.14B
$.A22.14B$.3A20.14B$24.14B$24.14B$24.14B$3.3A18.9B3A$2.A2.A18.8BA2.A$
.A4.A17.7BA4.A$3.A29.A2$4.2A28.2A$3.A.A27.A.A$3.A.A27.A.A2$9.A29.A$7.
A29.A$7.2A28.2A!

Is there any sacrificial constellation / oscillator that can be placed in the blue region to reproduce the reaction? The ash is less important, so long as the Herschel is there at generation 37. I don't care how expensive or complex the solution is as long as something works. It seems to me like the reaction is extremely sensitive to any change of the glider into something else, and won't grow a Herschel naturally if the object is anything I can make stationary. I can't find fuses, etc that spit out a Herschel when burned, but maybe someone knows stuff I don't that will help here.

Is this the kind of thing you are looking for?

Code: Select all

x = 16, y = 73, rule = LifeHistory
5.2A$5.2A3.2A$11.A$10.A$5.2A3.2A$4.A2.A$5.A2.A$6.2A20$4.2A$4.2A3.2A$
10.A$9.A$4.2A3.2A$3.A2.A$4.A2.A$5.2A11$6.3D$7.D$7.3D3$14B$14B$14B$14B
$3B2A9B$3B2A3B2A4B$9BA4B$8BA5B$3B2A3B2A4B$2BA2BA8B$3BA2BA7B$4B2A3B3A$
8BA2.A$7BA4.A$9.A2$10.2A$9.A.A$9.A.A2$15.A$13.A$13.2A!

There are two immediate problems with this pattern:

• The 'ash' takes too long and too much space to settle and includes extra gliders.
• The timing is off by one generation because I specified the search incorrectly, but I can rerun the search if this is the kind of fuse you are looking for.

Edited to add:

Here are two candidate solutions, with the right timing this time and cleaner ash.

Code: Select all

x = 55, y = 98, rule = LifeHistory
7.2A2.2A34.2A3.2A$7.2A2.A2.A31.A.A2.A2.A$13.2A31.A5.2A$3.2A40.2A$3.A$
4.A$5.A$4.2A20$6.2A2.2A34.2A3.2A$6.2A2.A2.A31.A.A2.A2.A$12.2A31.A5.2A
$2.2A40.2A$2.A$3.A$4.A$3.2A20$5.2A2.2A34.2A3.2A$5.2A2.A2.A31.A.A2.A2.
A$11.2A31.A5.2A$.2A40.2A$.A$2.A$3.A$2.2A9$4.3D37.3D$5.D39.D$5.3D37.3D
9$4.2A2.2A34.2A3.2A$4.2A2.A2.A31.A.A2.A2.A$10.2A31.A5.2A$2A40.2A$A$.A
5.3A37.3A$2.A3.A2.A36.A2.A$.2A2.A4.A34.A4.A$7.A39.A2$8.2A38.2A$7.A.A
37.A.A$7.A.A37.A.A2$13.A39.A$11.A39.A$11.2A38.2A!

[muzik]

It's probably way too early, but has anyone thought of a name for this yet?

How about "springtail"?



I've also created a thread for the fourth potential oblique caterpillar, in case anyone wants to resume progress on that.

[Sphenocorona]

Here are two candidate solutions, with the right timing this time and cleaner ash.

Wow, that second one is amazing. Nice find!

[muzik]

That second one looks so easy to create it's not even funny.


Full steam ahead from here I guess




A really terrible way to create it:

Code: Select all

x = 33, y = 19, rule = B3/S23
10bo19bo$10bobo15b2o$o9b2o17b2o$b2o$2o9$30b3o$30bo$31bo$25b3o$25bo$26b
o!

[biggiemac]

Thank you! Excellent finds, now we have frozen tracks!

We still have the difficult task of finding a minimal set of tracks capable of creating these seeds, but with this we have a solution to the rephasing problem.

[muzik]

I'm assuming the honeyeater technology (best name!) is going to be created through a glider synthesis?

[BlinkerSpawn]

I'm assuming the honeyeater technology (best name!) is going to be created through a glider synthesis?

Probably the eater at any rate. I'm not too experienced with macro-spaceship construction but construction via climber interactions is the standard route for most "common" objects.