Building a reverse caber-tosser

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.
chris_c
Posts: 966
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by chris_c » May 29th, 2018, 2:25 pm

Since the syntheses I posted for the reflectors both have no gliders along the direction of the input glider it should usually be possible to synthesise a chain of reflectors starting from the earliest reflector and working forwards without any collisions. I wrote a little script that uses this idea. It currently synthesises 9 out of 11 of the reflectors in the bottom half of calcyman's decoder. The other two look like they will need kickbacks so I haven't tackled those yet. There are some rudimentary instructions at the top of the script.

Code: Select all

import golly as g

#Command meaning:
#1. Changer or Preserver
#2/3. x,y coords of eater head
#4. Delay to apply to synthesis. Timing is relative previous synthesis unless RESET appears.
#5. Direction of input gliders into reflector
#6. Direction the reflector turns

commands = [
"RESET",
"P 48 213 0 SW R",
"C -149 22 1001 NW R",
"P 18 -150 505 NE R",
"P 90 -86 503 SE R",
"RESET",
"C 117 225 800 SE L",
"C 213 132 807 NE L",
"RESET",
"P -85 50 800 NW R",
"C 152 -176 807 NE L",
"P 74 -259 805 NW L"
]

turns = { "NW" : 0, "NE" : 1, "SE" : 2, "SW" : 3 }

bouncer = [g.parse("bo$b2o11b2o$obo12b2o$14bo!", -32, 23),
           g.parse("2bo$obo$b2o10$9bobo$10b2o$10bo!", -34, -34),
           g.parse("5bobo$5b2o$6bo2$11bo$9b2o$10b2o8$6bo$5bo$5b3o2$bo$o$3o3$10bo$10bobo$10b2o!", 22, -43)]

bumper = [g.parse("7b3o$9bo$8bo4$2o$b2o$o!", -43, 21),
          g.parse("obo$b2o$bo8$6bo$7bo$5b3o6$3bo$4b2o$3b2o!", -33, -46,),
          g.parse("9bobo$9b2o$10bo8$13bo$12bo$12b3o5$3bo$3bobo$3b2o6$o$obo$2o!", 28, -55)]


def place_reflector(ref, x, y, delay, direction, turn):

    d = -delay // 4
    t = -delay % 4

    cells  = g.transform(ref[0],  d, -d)
    cells += g.transform(ref[1],  d,  d)
    cells += g.transform(ref[2], -d,  d)

    cells = g.evolve(cells, t)

    if turn == "L":
        cells = g.transform(cells, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0)
    else:
        assert(turn == "R")

    for _ in range(turns[direction]):
        cells = g.transform(cells, 0, 0, 0, -1, 1, 0)

    g.putcells(cells, x, y)

g.new('')

for s in commands:
    if s == "RESET":
        delay = 1000
        continue

    pc, x, y, t, direction, turn = s.split()
    assert(pc in "PC")
    ref = bumper if pc == "P" else bouncer
    delay += int(t)
    place_reflector(ref, int(x), int(y), delay, direction, turn)

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 10610
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by dvgrn » May 30th, 2018, 4:01 pm

I believe the following is a better placement of the BLSE synthesis. I dug up an alternate four-glider BLSE with trailing ash that can be cleaned up by the construction arm -- if the first signal is a DFIRE rather than a PULL. The Cordership position and stopping block for this pattern give an output of DFIRE, DFIRE, PULL, PULL, PULL.

I believe this is the current-best pattern to try to simplify -- i.e., it includes calcyman's recent change but not anyone else's.

Code: Select all

x = 31193, y = 31087, rule = B3/S23
19bo$18bo3bo$19bo2bo$20b2o$19b2o2$19bobo$21bo$33b2o$33b2o7$35b2o$35b3o
$34bo2bo$35bo3bo$36bob3o$38b2o$37b3o$37b2o$37bo$38b2o3$12b2obo7b3o$12b
4o8b2o$11bo3bo5b2o3bo9bo$12b3o7bobobo9b2o$12b3o9b2o10bo2bo$2o12bo$2o
35bobo$38bo6$8b2o$8b2o10b3o$20b4o$19bo3b2o$24bo2b3o$19b2ob2o3bobo$20b
4o3b3o$21bo29821$29869b2o$29869b2o130$29961b2o$29960b2o$29962bo17$
29964b3o$29964bo$29965bo230$30560b2o$30559bobo$30558b3o14bo$30558b2o
13b3o$30561b2o9bo$30560b3o9b2o2$30568bo$30560b2o5bobo$30560b2o4bo2bo$
30567b2o10$30559bo$30557b2o$30558b2o22$30617b4o$30612b2o7bo$30612b2o2b
2o3bo$30616b2o2bo4$30612bo$30611bobo$30611bo2bo$30612b2o3$30616b2o$
30616bobo$30618bo$30574b2o25bo16b2o$30574b2o25b2o$30600bobo$30562b2o$
30562b2o19b2o$30583b2o16$30569b2o$30570bo$30567b3o$30495bo71bo$30493b
2o$30494b2o$30590b2o5b2o$30590b2o5bo$30595bobo$30537bobo55b2o$30537b2o
52b2o$30471b2o65bo40b2o10bobo$30472bo106b2o11bo$30472bobo120b3o$30473b
2o119bo$30594bo3bo$30594bo2bobo$30477b2o117bobo2bo$30476bo2bo88b2o27bo
3bo$30477bobo89bo19b2o10bo$30478bo90bobo17bo8b3o$30570b2o15bobo$30582b
o4b2o$30581bobo$30473b2o106bobo$30469b2obo2bob2o91b2o10bo$30469bo4bo2b
2o90bobo$30473bo95bo$30470bobo95b2o$30583b2o$30583bo$30570b3o11b3o$
30572bo13bo$30571bo6$30492b2o$30493bo$30493bobo$30494b2o3$30498b2o$
30497bo2bo$30498bobo$30499bo4$30491bo2b2o$30490bo3b2o2b2o$30490bo7b2o$
30491b4o10$30529bo63b2o$30527bobo63b2o$30528b2o78bo$30606b3o$30592b3o
10bo$30527bo64b2o11b2o$30528bo66b2o$30526b3o65b3o4bo$30593bobo4bobo$
30593b2o4bo2bo$30600b2o5$30503b4o$30502bo7b2o$30502bo3b2o2b2o$30503bo
2b2o99b3o$30607bo$30608bo2$30511bo$30510bobo$30509bo2bo$30510b2o2$
30518bo$30506b2o9b2o$30505bobo9bobo$30505bo$30504b2o10$30549b2o$30549b
2o7$30516bo$30515bobo$30514bo3bo$30515bo3bo8bo$30516bo3bo5b3o6b2o$
30517bo3bo3bo8bobo$30518bobo4b2o7bo$30519bo13b2o$30523bo$30522bobo$
30523b2o2b2o$30515bo11b2o$30513b3o$30512bo41b2o$30512b2o40bo$30502b2o
51b3o$30503bo53bo$30503bobo$30504b2o$30583bo$30513b2o69b2o5bo$30512b2o
b2o5b2o59b2o7bo$30511bo2b3o5b2o66b3o$30469b2o39bo4b2o$30469b2o38b2o3bo
$30508b4obo$30508b4o$30511b2o174bo$30553b2o132b2o$30553b2o131b2obo$
30508b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o$30509bo3bo33b2o135bobobo$30506b3o5b3o166bob
obo$30506bo9bo154b3o7b3o2bo$30549b2o120bo10bob2o$30542b2o5b2o121bo10b
2o$30542b2o136bo3bo$30679bobo$30478b2o2bo196b2o$30474b2o2b2o3bo199b2o$
30474b2o7bo199bobo$30479b4o195b2o5bo$30678b2o5b2o2$30514bo$30483bo30bo
bo$30482bobo29b2o$30481bo2bo$30482b2o3$30478b2o$30477bobo$30477bo$
30476b2o6$30560b2o$30560b2o$30498b2o46bo13b2o$30491b2o4bo2bo45b3o12bo$
30491b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$30491b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo$30492bo$30491bobo9b2o
48bo$30490b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$30504b3o45bo2bo4b2o$30506bo46b2o$30491b2o
$30491b2o11$30647bo$30648b2o5bo$30647b2o7bo$30654b3o10$30616bo$30616b
2o$30615bobo$30524b2o$30523bobo$30525bo3$30585bobo$30586b2o$30586bo20$
30623b2o$30623bo$30621bobo$30621b2o3$30617b2o$30616bo2bo$30616bobo$
30617bo4$30621b2o2bo$30617b2o2b2o3bo$30617b2o7bo$30622b4o18$30552bo$
30552b2o$30551bobo$30460b2o$30459bobo$30461bo119bo$30580bo$30580b3o24$
30589b2o$30540bo48bobo$30540b3o48bo$30543bo47b2o$30542b2o$30557b2o$
30557bo$30555bobo$30544bo10b2o$30543bobo5b2o98b2o$30543bobo4bo2bo98b2o
$30538b2o4bo6b2o98bo$30537bobo15b2o$30526b3o8bo17bobo$30525bo10b2o19bo
$30525bo3bo27b2o$30525bo2bobo$30527bobo2bo$30528bo3bo$30532bo$30529b3o
68b2o$30534bo11b2o51bobo$30533bobo10b2o53bo2b3o$30534b2o68bo$30530b2o
7b3o63bo$30529bobo7bo$30529bo5b2o3bo$30528b2o5b2o4$30558b2o$30558bo$
30488bo67bobo$30488b2o66b2o$30378bo108bobo$30377b3o16b2o$30376b3obo14b
obo$30377bo3bo15bo$30378bo3bo164bo$30379bob3o162bo$30380b3o162b2o$
30381bo163b3o$30385bo155b2o3bo2b3o$30384bobo154b2o3bob4o$30385b2o154b
2o2b2o2bobo$30381b2o155b2o3bobob2o2b3o$30380bobo154bobo13bo$30380bo5b
2o149bo15b2obo$30379b2o5b2o148b2o16b3o$30555bo6$30543b2o$30544bo$
30544bobo$30545b2o$30443b2o$30442b3o$30441bobo2bo2b2o$30441b2o2b2o2b2o
$30445b2o2$30563b2o$30562bo2bo99b2o$30450bo111bo2bo98b2o$30449bobo111b
2o101bo$30448bo2bo$30449b2o95b2o$30546b2o$30538b2o47b2o$30445b2o92bo
48b2o$30444bobo92bobo20b2o23bo$30444bo95b2o20b2o$30443b2o3$30559bo$
30557b3o$30556bo142b3o$30556b2o144bo$30698bo3bo$30697bobo2bo$30668b3o
24bo2bobo$30668bo26bo3bo$30669bo25bo$30696b3o$30693bo$30692bobo$30692b
2o$30536b2o158b2o$30536b2o158bobo$30478b2o211b2o5bo$30478bobo210b2o5b
2o$30478bo3$30445b2o$30444b2o$30446bo$30551b2o$30551b2o27$30648b3o$
30650bo$30649bo11$30748bo$30748b2o$30747b2obo$30746bo2b3o$30745bobobo$
30744bobobo$30732b3o7b3o2bo$30732bo10bob2o$30733bo10b2o$30741bo3bo$
30740bobo$30740b2o$30744b2o$30744bobo$30739b2o5bo$30542b2o195b2o5b2o$
30542bobo$30542bo3$30509b2o$30508b2o$30510bo9$30586b2o$30579b2o5b2o$
30579b2o3$30581b2o27b2o$30581b2o27b2o$30575b2o$30575b2o$30616b2o$
30616b2o$30612b2o$30612b2o4$30617b2o$30617b2o3$30584b3o$30586bo$30585b
o3$30577b2o$30576b2o2b2o$30576bob4o$30576b3o$30576b2o2b2o$30577b3o2bo
31bo$30570b2o5b2o2b3o28bobo$30570b2o7bo2bo30b2o$30579b3o$30580bo2$
30575b2o$30575b2o$30571b2o104bo$30571b2o104b2o$30612b2o62bobo$30612b2o
$30577b2o27b2o$30577b2o27b2o3$30608b2o$30601b2o5b2o$30601b2o5$30573b2o
$30572b2o$30574bo2$30576bo$30567b2o6bob2o$30567b2o6bobo$30576bo2$
30567b3o9b2o$30568b2o9bo$30565b2o13b3o$30565b3o14bo$30566bobo$30567b2o
2$30645b2o$30645b2o2b2o$30649bobo$30650bo$30653b3o$30647b2o3bo$30648bo
3bo3bo$30645b3o4bo2bobo$30645bo8bobo2bo$30655bo3bo$30659bo$30656b3o36$
31033bo$31031bobo$31032b2o$31036bo$31035bo$31035b3o6$31039bo$31038b2o$
31038bobo68$30963b2o$30962bobo$30964bo73$31190b2o$31190bobo$31190bo!
The Cordership stopper block is way off in the northeast now. If you move it back (+600,+600) to its previous location, you'll see that the system produces two additional DFIREs.

The current design needs some number of PULLs before each DFIRE -- an increasing number for each new elbow that gets used and destroyed. Unfortunately, even though it's perfectly possible to clean up all the extra BLSE junk with DFIREs, that would use up six elbows for every new two-elbow segment of BLSE ash, so we'd never catch up.

Anyway, without the required PULLs before each DFIRE, you get a nasty explosion, which is why the stopper is temporarily moved out far enough to suppress them.

-- Anyone care to sort out the math for a script to convert a binary string, 0=PULL, 1=DFIRE, into a precise Cordership position relative to the reader mechanism?

I'm assuming for now that Macbi's suggestion will work out somehow, so I've removed the hand block synthesis. The extra junk is now on the same side of the BLSE ash as the DFIRE output. There's a boat, a blinker, and some blocks that we can try aiming a monochromatic salvo at to push some junk to a safer distance. It doesn't matter how much ash is produced in the course of this initial push operation, as long as it can be shot down with more DFIRE gliders, and as long as said ash doesn't get in the way of PULL/DFIRE operations and no extraneous gliders get away.

At some point we'll have to take the time to do that search and show that there _is_ an initial hand-block push recipe that works -- probably along with working out a workable monochromatic block-move and block-placement library. Otherwise we'll have to add one more glider (horrors).

One more item that might possibly come in handy for optimization: the alt-Fx77 G10 method I suggested for suppressing the tandem gliders heading back toward the Cordership... might be overkill, since one glider can do that suppression:

Code: Select all

x = 45, y = 36, rule = LifeHistory
24.4B$25.4B$26.4B$27.4B$28.4B$29.4B$30.4B$19.B11.4B$19.2B11.2B2A$19.
3B11.BABA$2A17.4B11.A3B$.2A17.4B11.4B$A20.4B11.4B$22.4B11.4B$23.4B11.
4B$24.4B11.4B$25.4B11.4B$26.4B11.4B$27.4B11.3B$28.4B11.2B$29.4B11.B$
30.4B$31.4B$32.4B$33.4B$34.4B$35.4B$36.2B2A$37.2A2B$38.BA2B$39.4B$40.
4B$41.4B$42.3B$43.2B$44.B!
On the other hand, the alt-Fx77 is so cheap to build that sending one glider instead of two may not actually end up reducing N. (?)

EDIT: Here's a failed attempt at salvaging chris_c's idea of getting rid of two b[ump|ounc]ers. The DFIRE add-on glider can be suppressed in any number of places, including way up north before it becomes part of the salvo.

Unfortunately I had to add the two reflectors back in again, because the glider stream labeled TEST can't be moved northeast/southwest (much) -- the gliders making up the stream have to stay in those spacetime locations so they can interrupt the first glider in a DFIRE return salvo, or neither glider in a PULL return salvo.

I tried using one of the old receiver-based glider stoppers to avoid the precise timing requirement for the TEST stream negating the DFIRE stream. Unfortunately you'll see if you try to remove the two reflectors northeast of the TEST label that there's still a range of relative timings that just won't work...

Code: Select all

x = 31193, y = 31087, rule = B3/S23
19bo$18bo3bo$19bo2bo$20b2o$19b2o2$19bobo$21bo$33b2o$33b2o7$35b2o$35b3o
$34bo2bo$35bo3bo$36bob3o$38b2o$37b3o$37b2o$37bo$38b2o3$12b2obo7b3o$12b
4o8b2o$11bo3bo5b2o3bo9bo$12b3o7bobobo9b2o$12b3o9b2o10bo2bo$2o12bo$2o
35bobo$38bo6$8b2o$8b2o10b3o$20b4o$19bo3b2o$24bo2b3o$19b2ob2o3bobo$20b
4o3b3o$21bo29821$29869b2o$29869b2o130$29961b2o$29960b2o$29962bo17$
29964b3o$29964bo$29965bo102$30432b2o$30431bobo$30430b3o14bo$30430b2o
13b3o$30433b2o9bo$30432b3o9b2o2$30440bo$30432b2o5bobo$30432b2o4bo2bo$
30439b2o10$30431bo$30429b2o$30430b2o41$30491b3o$30491bo$30492bo19$
30367bo$30365b2o$30366b2o6$30343b2o$30344bo$30344bobo$30345b2o3$30349b
2o$30348bo2bo28bo$30349bobo28b3o$30350bo32bo$30382b2o2$30398b2o$30345b
2o51bo$30341b2obo2bob2o45bobo$30341bo4bo2b2o45b2o$30345bo$30342bobo7$
30378b2o$30378b2o5$30376bo$30366b2o7bobo$30366b2o7bobo$30376bo11b2o$
30388bo$30389b3o163b3o$30391bo163bo$30556bo$30352bo$30348b2o2b2ob3o$
30348b2o4b4o$30352b2o$30381b2o$30372b2o7bo$30373bo8b3o$30357bo12b3o11b
o$30356bobo11bo$30355bo2bo$30356b2o3$30352b2o$30351bobo$30351bo$30350b
2o20$30386b3o$30386bo$30387bo4$30617b4o$30612b2o7bo$30612b2o2b2o3bo$
30616b2o2bo4$30612bo$30611bobo$30611bo2bo$30612b2o3$30616b2o$30616bobo
$30618bo$30574b2o25bo16b2o$30574b2o25b2o$30600bobo$30562b2o$30562b2o
19b2o$30583b2o13$30439bo2b2o$30438bo3b2o2b2o$30438bo7b2o$30439b4o126b
2o$30570bo$30567b3o$30567bo$30438bo$30437bobo$30437bo2bo149b2o5b2o$
30438b2o150b2o5bo$30595bobo$30537bobo55b2o$30442b2o93b2o52b2o$30442bob
o93bo40b2o10bobo$30444bo134b2o11bo$30444b2o149b3o$30594bo$30594bo3bo$
30594bo2bobo$30596bobo2bo$30422bo145b2o27bo3bo$30422b2o145bo19b2o10bo$
30421bobo145bobo17bo8b3o$30570b2o15bobo$30582bo4b2o$30581bobo$30581bob
o$30570b2o10bo$30569bobo$30569bo$30568b2o$30583b2o$30583bo$30570b3o11b
3o$30572bo13bo$30571bo6$30492b2o$30493bo$30493bobo$30494b2o3$30498b2o$
30497bo2bo$30498bobo$30499bo4$30491bo2b2o$30354bo135bo3b2o2b2o$30490bo
7b2o$30352bo138b4o2$30350bo2$30348bo3bo2$30346bo7bo2$30356bo2$30342bo
15bo170bo$30527bobo$30340bo187bo$30346bo$30339bo8bo$30344bo182bo$
30340bo8bo178bo$30335bo6bo183b3o$30348bo$30333bo$30346bo$30331bo2$
30333bo3bo$30328bo$30335bo7bo159b4o$30326bo175bo7b2o$30337bo3bo16bo
143bo3b2o2b2o$30324bo33b2o143bo2b2o$30339bo17bobo$30322bo3bo2$30320bo
7bo182bo$30510bobo$30330bo178bo2bo$30510b2o$30332bo$30518bo$30506b2o9b
2o$30505bobo9bobo$30505bo$30504b2o10$30549b2o$30549b2o7$30516bo$30515b
obo$30514bo3bo$30515bo3bo8bo$30516bo3bo5b3o6b2o$30517bo3bo3bo8bobo$
30518bobo4b2o7bo$30519bo13b2o$30523bo$30522bobo$30523b2o2b2o$30515bo
11b2o$30513b3o$30512bo41b2o$30512b2o40bo$30502b2o51b3o$30503bo53bo$
30503bobo$30504b2o$30583bo$30513b2o69b2o5bo$30512b2ob2o5b2o59b2o7bo$
30511bo2b3o5b2o66b3o$30510bo4b2o$30509b2o3bo$30508b4obo$30508b4o$
30511b2o$30553b2o$30553b2o$30508b2o3b2o32b2o$30509bo3bo33b2o$30294bo
211b3o5b3o$30294b2o210bo9bo$30293bobo253b2o$30542b2o5b2o$30542b2o2$
30478b2o2bo$30474b2o2b2o3bo$30474b2o7bo$30479b4o3$30514bo$30483bo30bob
o$30482bobo29b2o$30481bo2bo$30482b2o3$30478b2o$30477bobo$30477bo$
30476b2o5$30252b2o$30248b2o2b2o2b2o302b2o$30248b2o2bo2bobo302b2o$
30254b3o241b2o46bo13b2o$30254b2o235b2o4bo2bo45b3o12bo$30491b2o5bobo48b
o10bobo$30491b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo$30257bo234bo$30256bobo232bobo9b2o48bo$
30255bo2bo231b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$30256b2o246b3o45bo2bo4b2o$30506bo46b2o
$30491b2o$30252b2o237b2o$30251bobo$30251bo$30250b2o8$30647bo$30648b2o
5bo$30647b2o7bo$30654b3o8$30286b2o$30286bobo$30286bo3$30524b2o$30523bo
bo$30525bo3$30585bobo$30586b2o$30586bo20$30623b2o$30623bo$30621bobo$
30621b2o3$30617b2o$30616bo2bo$30616bobo$30617bo4$30621b2o2bo$30617b2o
2b2o3bo$30617b2o7bo$30622b4o16$30350b2o$30350bobo$30350bo3$30460b2o$
30459bobo$30461bo119bo$30580bo$30580b3o24$30589b2o$30540bo48bobo$
30540b3o48bo$30543bo47b2o$30542b2o$30557b2o$30557bo$30555bobo$30544bo
10b2o$30543bobo5b2o98b2o$30543bobo4bo2bo98b2o$30538b2o4bo6b2o98bo$
30537bobo15b2o$30526b3o8bo17bobo$30525bo10b2o19bo$30525bo3bo27b2o$
30525bo2bobo$30527bobo2bo$30528bo3bo$30532bo$30529b3o68b2o$30534bo11b
2o51bobo$30533bobo10b2o53bo2b3o$30534b2o68bo$30530b2o7b3o63bo$30529bob
o7bo$30529bo5b2o3bo$30528b2o5b2o4$30414b2o142b2o$30414bobo141bo$30414b
o141bobo$30556b2o$30378bo$30377b3o16b2o$30376b3obo14bobo$30377bo3bo15b
o$30378bo3bo164bo$30379bob3o162bo$30380b3o162b2o$30381bo163b3o$30385bo
155b2o3bo2b3o$30384bobo154b2o3bob4o$30385b2o154b2o2b2o2bobo$30381b2o
155b2o3bobob2o2b3o$30380bobo154bobo13bo$30380bo5b2o149bo15b2obo$30379b
2o5b2o148b2o16b3o$30555bo6$30543b2o$30544bo$30544bobo$30545b2o7$30563b
2o$30562bo2bo99b2o$30562bo2bo98b2o$30563b2o101bo2$30546b2o$30546b2o$
30538b2o47b2o$30539bo48b2o$30539bobo20b2o23bo$30540b2o20b2o4$30559bo$
30557b3o$30556bo142b3o$30556b2o144bo$30698bo3bo$30697bobo2bo$30668b3o
24bo2bobo$30668bo26bo3bo$30669bo25bo$30696b3o$30693bo$30692bobo$30692b
2o$30536b2o158b2o$30536b2o158bobo$30478b2o211b2o5bo$30478bobo210b2o5b
2o$30478bo3$30445b2o$30444b2o$30446bo$30551b2o$30551b2o27$30648b3o$
30650bo$30649bo11$30748bo$30748b2o$30747b2obo$30746bo2b3o$30745bobobo$
30744bobobo$30732b3o7b3o2bo$30732bo10bob2o$30733bo10b2o$30741bo3bo$
30740bobo$30740b2o$30744b2o$30744bobo$30739b2o5bo$30542b2o195b2o5b2o$
30542bobo$30542bo3$30509b2o$30508b2o$30510bo9$30586b2o$30579b2o5b2o$
30579b2o3$30581b2o27b2o$30581b2o27b2o$30575b2o$30575b2o$30616b2o$
30616b2o$30612b2o$30612b2o4$30617b2o$30617b2o3$30584b3o$30586bo$30585b
o3$30577b2o$30576b2o2b2o$30576bob4o$30576b3o$30576b2o2b2o$30577b3o2bo
31bo$30570b2o5b2o2b3o28bobo$30570b2o7bo2bo30b2o$30579b3o$30580bo2$
30575b2o$30575b2o$30571b2o104bo$30571b2o104b2o$30612b2o62bobo$30612b2o
$30577b2o27b2o$30577b2o27b2o3$30608b2o$30601b2o5b2o$30601b2o5$30573b2o
$30572b2o$30574bo2$30576bo$30567b2o6bob2o$30567b2o6bobo$30576bo2$
30567b3o9b2o$30568b2o9bo$30565b2o13b3o$30565b3o14bo$30566bobo$30567b2o
2$30645b2o$30645b2o2b2o$30649bobo$30650bo$30653b3o$30647b2o3bo$30648bo
3bo3bo$30645b3o4bo2bobo$30645bo8bobo2bo$30655bo3bo$30659bo$30656b3o36$
31033bo$31031bobo$31032b2o$31036bo$31035bo$31035b3o6$31039bo$31038b2o$
31038bobo68$30963b2o$30962bobo$30964bo73$31190b2o$31190bobo$31190bo!

User avatar
Goldtiger997
Posts: 762
Joined: June 21st, 2016, 8:00 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Goldtiger997 » May 31st, 2018, 3:31 am

Here's a draft for the final step for the first pattern in dvgrn's above post. If that gets improved, it shouldn't be too hard to modify this synthesis:

Code: Select all

x = 1778, y = 1525, rule = B3/S23
o$b2o$2o62$1777bo$1775b2o$1776b2o62$1713bo$1711b2o$1712b2o62$1649bo$
1647b2o$1648b2o62$1585bo$1583b2o$1584b2o62$1521bo$1519b2o$1520b2o94$
242bo$240bobo$241b2o200$739b2o$738bobo$737b3o14bo$737b2o13b3o$740b2o9b
o$739b3o9b2o2$747bo$739b2o5bobo$739b2o4bo2bo$746b2o34$796b4o$791b2o7bo
$791b2o2b2o3bo$795b2o2bo4$791bo$790bobo$790bo2bo$791b2o3$795b2o$795bob
o$797bo$753b2o42b2o$753b2o2$741b2o$741b2o19b2o$762b2o16$748b2o$749bo$
746b3o$746bo3$769b2o5b2o$769b2o5bo$774bobo$774b2o$770b2o$650b2o106b2o
10bobo$651bo106b2o11bo$651bobo120b3o$652b2o119bo$773bo3bo$773bo2bobo$
656b2o117bobo2bo$655bo2bo88b2o27bo3bo$656bobo89bo19b2o10bo$657bo90bobo
17bo8b3o$749b2o15bobo$761bo4b2o$760bobo$652b2o106bobo$648b2obo2bob2o
91b2o10bo$648bo4bo2b2o90bobo$652bo95bo$649bobo95b2o$762b2o$762bo$763b
3o$765bo7$671b2o$672bo$672bobo$673b2o3$677b2o$676bo2bo$677bobo$678bo4$
670bo2b2o$669bo3b2o2b2o$669bo7b2o$670b4o10$772b2o$772b2o$787bo$785b3o$
771b3o10bo$771b2o11b2o$774b2o$773b3o4bo$772bobo4bobo$772b2o4bo2bo$779b
2o5$682b4o$681bo7b2o$681bo3b2o2b2o$682bo2b2o4$690bo$689bobo$688bo2bo$
689b2o3$685b2o$684bobo$684bo63bo$683b2o62bobo$747b2o9$728b2o$728b2o7$
695bo$694bobo$693bo3bo$694bo3bo8bo$695bo3bo5b3o6b2o$696bo3bo3bo8bobo$
697bobo4b2o7bo$698bo13b2o$702bo$701bobo$702b2o2b2o$694bo11b2o$692b3o$
691bo41b2o$691b2o40bo$681b2o51b3o$682bo53bo$682bobo$683b2o4b2o$688bo2b
o$689b2o$701b2o$701b2o$648b2o$648b2o3$866bo$732b2o132b2o$732b2o131b2ob
o$687b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o$688bo3bo33b2o135bobobo$685b3o5b3o166bobobo$
685bo9bo164b3o2bo$728b2o131bob2o$721b2o5b2o132b2o$721b2o136bo3bo$858bo
bo$657b2o2bo196b2o$653b2o2b2o3bo199b2o$653b2o7bo199bobo$658b4o195b2o5b
o$857b2o5b2o3$662bo$661bobo$660bo2bo$661b2o3$657b2o$656bobo$656bo36bo$
655b2o35bobo$692b2o5$739b2o$739b2o$677b2o46bo13b2o$670b2o4bo2bo45b3o
12bo$670b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$670b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo$671bo$670bobo9b2o48bo$
669b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$683b3o45bo2bo4b2o$685bo46b2o$670b2o$670b2o54$
802b2o$802bo$800bobo$800b2o3$796b2o$795bo2bo$795bobo$796bo4$800b2o2bo$
796b2o2b2o3bo$796b2o7bo$801b4o49$768b2o$719bo48bobo$719b3o48bo$722bo
47b2o$721b2o$736b2o$736bo$734bobo$723bo10b2o$722bobo$722bobo$717b2o4bo
$716bobo15b2o$705b3o8bo17bobo$704bo10b2o19bo$704bo3bo27b2o$704bo2bobo$
706bobo2bo$707bo3bo$711bo$708b3o$713bo11b2o$712bobo10b2o$713b2o$709b2o
$708bobo$708bo5b2o$707b2o5b2o4$737b2o$737bo$735bobo$735b2o$557bo$556b
3o$555b3obo$556bo3bo$557bo3bo$558bob3o$559b3o$560bo$564bo$563bobo$564b
2o$560b2o155b2o15b2o$559bobo154bobo15b2o$559bo5b2o149bo$558b2o5b2o148b
2o7$722b2o$723bo$723bobo$724b2o$622b2o$621b3o$620bobo2bo2b2o$620b2o2b
2o2b2o$624b2o2$742b2o$741bo2bo$629bo111bo2bo$628bobo111b2o$627bo2bo$
628b2o95b2o$725b2o$717b2o$624b2o92bo$623bobo92bobo20b2o$623bo95b2o20b
2o$622b2o3$738bo$736b3o$735bo142b3o$735b2o144bo$877bo3bo$876bobo2bo$
874bo2bobo$874bo3bo$874bo$875b3o$872bo$871bobo$871b2o$715b2o158b2o$
715b2o158bobo$870b2o5bo$870b2o5b2o7$730b2o$730b2o40$927bo$927b2o$926b
2obo$925bo2b3o$924bobobo$923bobobo$921b3o2bo$922bob2o$923b2o$920bo3bo$
919bobo$919b2o$923b2o$923bobo$918b2o5bo$918b2o5b2o16$765b2o$758b2o5b2o
$758b2o3$760b2o27b2o$760b2o27b2o$754b2o$754b2o$795b2o$795b2o$791b2o$
791b2o4$796b2o$796b2o14$749b2o$749b2o22b2o$773b2o3$754b2o$754b2o$750b
2o$750b2o$791b2o$791b2o$756b2o27b2o$756b2o27b2o2$726bo36b2o$724bobo35b
obo22b2o$725b2o37bo15b2o5b2o$780b2o6$758b2o$757bobo$759bo$743b2o$744b
2o$743bo21b2o$764b2o$766bo$758b2o$758bo$759b3o$761bo2$1198b2o$1198bobo
$740b3o81b2o372bo$742bo81b2o2b2o$734b2o5bo86bobo$733bobo93bo$735bo96b
3o$758bo67b2o3bo$757b2o68bo3bo3bo$757bobo64b3o4bo2bobo$824bo8bobo2bo$
834bo3bo$838bo$835b3o2$763b3o$763bo$764bo3$942bo$941b2o$941bobo45$731b
o$731b2o$730bobo15$1006bo$1005b2o$1005bobo45$667bo$667b2o$666bobo15$
1070bo$1069b2o$1069bobo45$603bo$603b2o$602bobo15$1134bo$1133b2o$1133bo
bo45$539bo$539b2o$538bobo15$1198bo$1197b2o$1197bobo! [[ STEP 16 ]] 
The long lines of gliders can be replaced by 2 gliders (hopefully 1 but I don't think so). The boat insertion is most likely unnecessary.

On a different note, the p8 H-Gs look like they will cost 23 gliders each, which is more than you might have expected. The reason for this is that one of the eaters has to cost 4G and another one has to cost 3G for the synthesis to work. Here is an example 23 glider synthesis:

Code: Select all

x = 107, y = 56, rule = B3/S23
49bo$47b2o$48b2o$56bo$55bo$55b3o3$45bobo$45b2o$2bo43bo$obo$b2o9$85bo$
23bo61b3o$21b2o65bo$22b2o63b2o$102b2o$102bo$26bobo71bobo$26b2o61bo10b
2o$27bo11bo5bo42bobo$35bo2bo5b2o42bobo$5bo28b2o2b3o3bobo36b2o4bo$6bo
27bobo45bobo$4b3o65bo9bo$71b3o7b2o15b3o$70b3obo25bo$71bo3bo23bo$22bo
49bo3bo26b2o$22bobo48bob3o21bo2b2o$22b2o50b3o22b2o3bo$75bo22bobo$17bo
61bo$17bobo58bobo$13bo3b2o60b2o23b2o$14b2o59b2o27bobo$13b2o12bo22b2o
22bobo27bo$6b2o12bo5bo23bobo21bo5b2o$7b2o11b2o4b3o21bo22b2o5b2o$6bo12b
obo77bo$98b2o$98bobo$82bo$82b2o$52b3o26bobo$52bo$53bo!

User avatar
calcyman
Moderator
Posts: 2932
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by calcyman » May 31st, 2018, 7:32 am

Goldtiger997 wrote:Here's a draft for the final step for the first pattern in dvgrn's above post. If that gets improved, it shouldn't be too hard to modify this synthesis:
As a trivial improvement, two of the reflectors can be moved south-east to remove 4 of the gliders:

Code: Select all

x = 1778, y = 1525, rule = B3/S23
o$b2o$2o62$1777bo$1775b2o$1776b2o62$1713bo$1711b2o$1712b2o62$1649bo$
1647b2o$1648b2o62$1585bo$1583b2o$1584b2o62$1521bo$1519b2o$1520b2o94$
242bo$240bobo$241b2o200$739b2o$738bobo$737b3o14bo$737b2o13b3o$740b2o9b
o$739b3o9b2o2$747bo$739b2o5bobo$739b2o4bo2bo$746b2o34$796b4o$791b2o7bo
$791b2o2b2o3bo$795b2o2bo4$791bo$790bobo$790bo2bo$791b2o3$795b2o$795bob
o$797bo$753b2o42b2o$753b2o2$741b2o$741b2o19b2o$762b2o16$748b2o$749bo$
746b3o$746bo3$769b2o5b2o$769b2o5bo$774bobo$774b2o$770b2o$650b2o106b2o
10bobo$651bo106b2o11bo$651bobo120b3o$652b2o119bo$773bo3bo$773bo2bobo$
656b2o117bobo2bo$655bo2bo88b2o27bo3bo$656bobo89bo19b2o10bo$657bo90bobo
17bo8b3o$749b2o15bobo$761bo4b2o$760bobo$652b2o106bobo$648b2obo2bob2o
91b2o10bo$648bo4bo2b2o90bobo$652bo95bo$649bobo95b2o$762b2o$762bo$763b
3o$765bo7$671b2o$672bo$672bobo$673b2o3$677b2o$676bo2bo$677bobo$678bo4$
670bo2b2o$669bo3b2o2b2o$669bo7b2o$670b4o10$772b2o$772b2o$787bo$785b3o$
771b3o10bo$771b2o11b2o$774b2o$773b3o4bo$772bobo4bobo$772b2o4bo2bo$779b
2o5$682b4o$681bo7b2o$681bo3b2o2b2o$682bo2b2o4$690bo$689bobo$688bo2bo$
689b2o3$685b2o$684bobo$684bo63bo$683b2o62bobo$747b2o9$728b2o$728b2o7$
695bo$694bobo$693bo3bo$694bo3bo8bo$695bo3bo5b3o6b2o$696bo3bo3bo8bobo$
697bobo4b2o7bo$698bo13b2o$702bo$701bobo$702b2o2b2o$694bo11b2o$692b3o$
691bo41b2o$691b2o40bo$681b2o51b3o$682bo53bo$682bobo$683b2o4b2o$688bo2b
o$689b2o$701b2o$701b2o$648b2o$648b2o3$866bo$732b2o132b2o$732b2o131b2ob
o$687b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o$688bo3bo33b2o135bobobo$685b3o5b3o166bobobo$
685bo9bo164b3o2bo$728b2o131bob2o$721b2o5b2o132b2o$721b2o136bo3bo$858bo
bo$657b2o2bo196b2o$653b2o2b2o3bo199b2o$653b2o7bo199bobo$658b4o195b2o5b
o$857b2o5b2o3$662bo$661bobo$660bo2bo$661b2o3$657b2o$656bobo$656bo36bo$
655b2o35bobo$692b2o5$739b2o$739b2o$677b2o46bo13b2o$670b2o4bo2bo45b3o
12bo$670b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$670b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo$671bo$670bobo9b2o48bo$
669b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$683b3o45bo2bo4b2o$685bo46b2o$670b2o$670b2o54$
802b2o$802bo$800bobo$800b2o3$796b2o$795bo2bo$795bobo$796bo4$800b2o2bo$
796b2o2b2o3bo$796b2o7bo$801b4o49$768b2o$719bo48bobo$719b3o48bo$722bo
47b2o$721b2o$736b2o$736bo$734bobo$723bo10b2o$722bobo$722bobo$717b2o4bo
$716bobo15b2o$705b3o8bo17bobo$704bo10b2o19bo$704bo3bo27b2o$704bo2bobo$
706bobo2bo$707bo3bo$711bo$708b3o$713bo11b2o$712bobo10b2o$713b2o$709b2o
$708bobo$708bo5b2o$707b2o5b2o4$737b2o$737bo$735bobo$735b2o$557bo$556b
3o$555b3obo$556bo3bo$557bo3bo$558bob3o$559b3o$560bo$564bo$563bobo$564b
2o$560b2o155b2o15b2o$559bobo154bobo15b2o$559bo5b2o149bo$558b2o5b2o148b
2o7$722b2o$723bo$723bobo$724b2o$622b2o$621b3o$620bobo2bo2b2o$620b2o2b
2o2b2o$624b2o2$742b2o$741bo2bo$629bo111bo2bo$628bobo111b2o$627bo2bo$
628b2o95b2o$725b2o$717b2o$624b2o92bo$623bobo92bobo20b2o$623bo95b2o20b
2o$622b2o3$738bo$736b3o$735bo142b3o$735b2o144bo$877bo3bo$876bobo2bo$
874bo2bobo$874bo3bo$874bo$875b3o$872bo$871bobo$871b2o$715b2o158b2o$
715b2o158bobo$870b2o5bo$870b2o5b2o7$730b2o$730b2o71$765b2o$758b2o5b2o$
758b2o3$760b2o27b2o$760b2o27b2o$754b2o$754b2o$795b2o$795b2o$791b2o$
791b2o4$796b2o$796b2o14$749b2o$749b2o22b2o$773b2o3$754b2o$754b2o$750b
2o$750b2o$791b2o$791b2o$756b2o27b2o$756b2o27b2o2$726bo36b2o$724bobo35b
obo22b2o$725b2o37bo15b2o5b2o$780b2o6$758b2o$757bobo$759bo$743b2o$744b
2o$743bo21b2o$764b2o$766bo$758b2o$758bo$759b3o$761bo2$1198b2o$1198bobo
$740b3o455bo$742bo$734b2o5bo$733bobo$735bo$758bo$757b2o$757bobo6$763b
3o$763bo$764bo3$942bo$941b2o$941bobo8$1055bo$1055b2o$1054b2obo$1053bo
2b3o$1052bobobo$1051bobobo$1049b3o2bo$1050bob2o$1051b2o$1048bo3bo$
1047bobo$1047b2o$1051b2o$1051bobo$1046b2o5bo$1046b2o5b2o39$1006bo$
1005b2o$1005bobo44$952b2o$952b2o2b2o$956bobo$957bo$960b3o$954b2o3bo$
955bo3bo3bo$952b3o4bo2bobo$952bo8bobo2bo$962bo3bo$966bo$963b3o7$1070bo
$1069b2o$1069bobo62$1134bo$1133b2o$1133bobo62$1198bo$1197b2o$1197bobo!
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

User avatar
calcyman
Moderator
Posts: 2932
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by calcyman » May 31st, 2018, 8:13 am

...and you can remove another 4 gliders by replacing one of the 5-glider streams with a single glider (and leave the cleanup to the recipe, as always).

Code: Select all

x = 1734, y = 1722, rule = B3/S23
o$b2o$2o414$242bo$240bobo$241b2o200$739b2o$738bobo$737b3o14bo$737b2o
13b3o$740b2o9bo$739b3o9b2o2$747bo$739b2o5bobo$739b2o4bo2bo$746b2o34$
796b4o$791b2o7bo$791b2o2b2o3bo$795b2o2bo4$791bo$790bobo$790bo2bo$791b
2o3$795b2o$795bobo$797bo$753b2o42b2o$753b2o2$741b2o$741b2o19b2o$762b2o
16$748b2o$749bo$746b3o$746bo3$769b2o5b2o$769b2o5bo$774bobo$774b2o$770b
2o$650b2o106b2o10bobo$651bo106b2o11bo$651bobo120b3o$652b2o119bo$773bo
3bo$773bo2bobo$656b2o117bobo2bo$655bo2bo88b2o27bo3bo$656bobo89bo19b2o
10bo$657bo90bobo17bo8b3o$749b2o15bobo$761bo4b2o$760bobo$652b2o106bobo$
648b2obo2bob2o91b2o10bo$648bo4bo2b2o90bobo$652bo95bo$649bobo95b2o$762b
2o$762bo$763b3o$765bo7$671b2o$672bo$672bobo$673b2o3$677b2o$676bo2bo$
677bobo$678bo4$670bo2b2o$669bo3b2o2b2o$669bo7b2o$670b4o10$772b2o$772b
2o$787bo$785b3o$771b3o10bo$771b2o11b2o$774b2o$773b3o4bo$772bobo4bobo$
772b2o4bo2bo$779b2o5$682b4o$681bo7b2o$681bo3b2o2b2o$682bo2b2o4$690bo$
689bobo$688bo2bo$689b2o3$685b2o$684bobo$684bo63bo$683b2o62bobo$747b2o
9$728b2o$728b2o7$695bo$694bobo$693bo3bo$694bo3bo8bo$695bo3bo5b3o6b2o$
696bo3bo3bo8bobo$697bobo4b2o7bo$698bo13b2o$702bo$701bobo$702b2o2b2o$
694bo11b2o$692b3o$691bo41b2o$691b2o40bo$681b2o51b3o$682bo53bo$682bobo$
683b2o4b2o$688bo2bo$689b2o$701b2o$701b2o$648b2o$648b2o3$866bo$732b2o
132b2o$732b2o131b2obo$687b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o$688bo3bo33b2o135bobobo$
685b3o5b3o166bobobo$685bo9bo164b3o2bo$728b2o131bob2o$721b2o5b2o132b2o$
721b2o136bo3bo$858bobo$657b2o2bo196b2o$653b2o2b2o3bo199b2o$653b2o7bo
199bobo$658b4o195b2o5bo$857b2o5b2o3$662bo$661bobo$660bo2bo$661b2o3$
657b2o$656bobo$656bo36bo$655b2o35bobo$692b2o5$739b2o$739b2o$677b2o46bo
13b2o$670b2o4bo2bo45b3o12bo$670b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$670b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo
$671bo$670bobo9b2o48bo$669b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$683b3o45bo2bo4b2o$685bo
46b2o$670b2o$670b2o54$802b2o$802bo$800bobo$800b2o3$796b2o$795bo2bo$
795bobo$796bo4$800b2o2bo$796b2o2b2o3bo$796b2o7bo$801b4o49$768b2o$719bo
48bobo$719b3o48bo$722bo47b2o$721b2o$736b2o$736bo$734bobo$723bo10b2o$
722bobo$722bobo$717b2o4bo$716bobo15b2o$705b3o8bo17bobo$704bo10b2o19bo$
704bo3bo27b2o$704bo2bobo$706bobo2bo$707bo3bo$711bo$708b3o$713bo11b2o$
712bobo10b2o$713b2o$709b2o$708bobo$708bo5b2o$707b2o5b2o4$737b2o$737bo$
735bobo$735b2o$557bo$556b3o$555b3obo$556bo3bo$557bo3bo$558bob3o$559b3o
$560bo$564bo$563bobo$564b2o$560b2o155b2o15b2o$559bobo154bobo15b2o$559b
o5b2o149bo$558b2o5b2o148b2o7$722b2o$723bo$723bobo$724b2o$622b2o$621b3o
$620bobo2bo2b2o$620b2o2b2o2b2o$624b2o2$742b2o$741bo2bo$629bo111bo2bo$
628bobo111b2o$627bo2bo$628b2o95b2o$725b2o$717b2o$624b2o92bo$623bobo92b
obo20b2o$623bo95b2o20b2o$622b2o3$738bo$736b3o$735bo142b3o$735b2o144bo$
877bo3bo$876bobo2bo$874bo2bobo$874bo3bo$874bo$875b3o$872bo$871bobo$
871b2o$715b2o158b2o$715b2o158bobo$870b2o5bo$870b2o5b2o7$730b2o$730b2o
71$765b2o$758b2o5b2o$758b2o3$760b2o27b2o$760b2o27b2o$754b2o$754b2o$
795b2o$795b2o$791b2o$791b2o4$796b2o$796b2o14$749b2o$749b2o22b2o$773b2o
3$754b2o$754b2o$750b2o$750b2o$791b2o$791b2o$756b2o27b2o$756b2o27b2o2$
726bo36b2o$724bobo35bobo22b2o$725b2o37bo15b2o5b2o$780b2o6$758b2o$757bo
bo$759bo$743b2o$744b2o$743bo21b2o$764b2o$766bo$758b2o$758bo$759b3o$
761bo2$1198b2o$1198bobo$740b3o455bo$742bo$734b2o5bo$733bobo$735bo$758b
o$757b2o$757bobo6$763b3o$763bo$764bo3$942bo$941b2o$941bobo8$1055bo$
1055b2o$1054b2obo$1053bo2b3o$1052bobobo$1051bobobo$1049b3o2bo$1050bob
2o$1051b2o$1048bo3bo$1047bobo$1047b2o$1051b2o$1051bobo$1046b2o5bo$
1046b2o5b2o39$1006bo$1005b2o$1005bobo44$952b2o$952b2o2b2o$956bobo$957b
o$960b3o$954b2o3bo$955bo3bo3bo$952b3o4bo2bobo$952bo8bobo2bo$962bo3bo$
966bo$963b3o7$1070bo$1069b2o$1069bobo62$1134bo$1133b2o$1133bobo62$
1198bo$1197b2o$1197bobo195$1732b2o$1731b2o$1733bo!
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 10610
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by dvgrn » May 31st, 2018, 11:44 am

Goldtiger997 wrote:The long lines of gliders can be replaced by 2 gliders (hopefully 1 but I don't think so). The boat insertion is most likely unnecessary.
Here's a simple sample replacement of the remaining five-glider series with two gliders. I did a quick check for one-glider options, didn't see any but could have missed a clever trick -- e.g., involving sparks from the generating Herschel loop, or using one of the p256 gun's blocks as a catalyst to alter a 2-glider reaction that's otherwise too messy. As with calcyman's one-glider-for-five-gliders replacement, it's okay if there's leftover junk -- but in this case the stream has to drill through the ash after exactly five gliders.

(And, yes, it looks like the boat insertion will probably not be needed once you switch over to just-in-time construction of the bumper that that glider otherwise has to travel through.)

Code: Select all

x = 1734, y = 1722, rule = B3/S23
o$b2o$2o414$242bo$240bobo$241b2o200$739b2o$738bobo$737b3o14bo$737b2o
13b3o$740b2o9bo$739b3o9b2o2$747bo$739b2o5bobo$739b2o4bo2bo$746b2o34$
796b4o$791b2o7bo$791b2o2b2o3bo$795b2o2bo4$791bo$790bobo$790bo2bo$791b
2o3$795b2o$795bobo$797bo$753b2o42b2o$753b2o2$741b2o$741b2o19b2o$762b2o
16$748b2o$749bo$746b3o$746bo3$769b2o5b2o$769b2o5bo$774bobo$774b2o$770b
2o$650b2o106b2o10bobo$651bo106b2o11bo$651bobo120b3o$652b2o119bo$773bo
3bo$773bo2bobo$656b2o117bobo2bo$655bo2bo88b2o27bo3bo$656bobo89bo19b2o
10bo$657bo90bobo17bo8b3o$749b2o15bobo$761bo4b2o$760bobo$652b2o106bobo$
648b2obo2bob2o91b2o10bo$648bo4bo2b2o90bobo$652bo95bo$649bobo95b2o$762b
2o$762bo$763b3o$765bo7$671b2o$672bo$672bobo$673b2o3$677b2o$676bo2bo$
677bobo$678bo4$670bo2b2o$669bo3b2o2b2o$669bo7b2o$670b4o10$772b2o$772b
2o$787bo$785b3o$771b3o10bo$771b2o11b2o$774b2o$773b3o4bo$772bobo4bobo$
772b2o4bo2bo$779b2o5$682b4o$681bo7b2o$681bo3b2o2b2o$682bo2b2o4$690bo$
689bobo$688bo2bo$689b2o3$685b2o$684bobo$684bo63bo$683b2o62bobo$747b2o
9$728b2o$728b2o7$695bo$694bobo$693bo3bo$694bo3bo8bo$695bo3bo5b3o6b2o$
696bo3bo3bo8bobo$697bobo4b2o7bo$698bo13b2o$702bo$701bobo$702b2o2b2o$
694bo11b2o$692b3o$691bo41b2o$691b2o40bo$681b2o51b3o$682bo53bo$682bobo$
683b2o4b2o$688bo2bo$689b2o$701b2o$701b2o$648b2o$648b2o3$866bo$732b2o
132b2o$732b2o131b2obo$687b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o$688bo3bo33b2o135bobobo$
685b3o5b3o166bobobo$685bo9bo164b3o2bo$728b2o131bob2o$721b2o5b2o132b2o$
721b2o136bo3bo$858bobo$657b2o2bo196b2o$653b2o2b2o3bo199b2o$653b2o7bo
199bobo$658b4o195b2o5bo$857b2o5b2o3$662bo$661bobo$660bo2bo$661b2o3$
657b2o$656bobo$656bo36bo$655b2o35bobo$692b2o5$739b2o$739b2o$677b2o46bo
13b2o$670b2o4bo2bo45b3o12bo$670b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$670b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo
$671bo$670bobo9b2o48bo$669b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$683b3o45bo2bo4b2o$685bo
46b2o$670b2o$670b2o54$802b2o$802bo$800bobo$800b2o3$796b2o$795bo2bo$
795bobo$796bo4$800b2o2bo$796b2o2b2o3bo$796b2o7bo$801b4o49$768b2o$719bo
48bobo$719b3o48bo$722bo47b2o$721b2o$736b2o$736bo$734bobo$723bo10b2o$
722bobo$722bobo$717b2o4bo$716bobo15b2o$705b3o8bo17bobo$704bo10b2o19bo$
704bo3bo27b2o$704bo2bobo$706bobo2bo$707bo3bo$711bo$708b3o$713bo11b2o$
712bobo10b2o$713b2o$709b2o$708bobo$708bo5b2o$707b2o5b2o4$737b2o$737bo$
735bobo$735b2o$557bo$556b3o$555b3obo$556bo3bo$557bo3bo$558bob3o$559b3o
$560bo$564bo$563bobo$564b2o$560b2o155b2o15b2o$559bobo154bobo15b2o$559b
o5b2o149bo$558b2o5b2o148b2o7$722b2o$723bo$723bobo$724b2o$622b2o$621b3o
$620bobo2bo2b2o$620b2o2b2o2b2o$624b2o2$742b2o$741bo2bo$629bo111bo2bo$
628bobo111b2o$627bo2bo$628b2o95b2o$725b2o$717b2o$624b2o92bo$623bobo92b
obo20b2o$623bo95b2o20b2o$622b2o3$738bo$736b3o$735bo142b3o$735b2o144bo$
877bo3bo$876bobo2bo$874bo2bobo$874bo3bo$874bo$875b3o$872bo$871bobo$
871b2o$715b2o158b2o$715b2o158bobo$870b2o5bo$870b2o5b2o7$730b2o$730b2o
71$765b2o$758b2o5b2o$758b2o3$760b2o27b2o$760b2o27b2o$754b2o$754b2o$
795b2o$795b2o$791b2o$791b2o4$796b2o$796b2o14$749b2o$749b2o22b2o$773b2o
3$754b2o$754b2o$750b2o$750b2o$791b2o$791b2o$756b2o27b2o$756b2o27b2o2$
726bo36b2o$724bobo35bobo22b2o$725b2o37bo15b2o5b2o$780b2o6$758b2o$757bo
bo$759bo$743b2o$744b2o$743bo21b2o$764b2o$766bo$758b2o$758bo$759b3o$
761bo2$1198b2o$1198bobo$740b3o455bo$742bo$734b2o5bo$733bobo$735bo$758b
o$757b2o$757bobo6$763b3o173b2o$763bo175bobo$764bo174bo13$1055bo$1055b
2o$1054b2obo$1053bo2b3o$1052bobobo$1051bobobo$1049b3o2bo$1050bob2o$
1051b2o$1048bo3bo$1047bobo$1047b2o$1051b2o$1051bobo$1046b2o5bo$1046b2o
5b2o63$1017b2o$1017bobo$1017bo20$952b2o$952b2o2b2o$956bobo$957bo$960b
3o$954b2o3bo$955bo3bo3bo$952b3o4bo2bobo$952bo8bobo2bo$962bo3bo$966bo$
963b3o332$1732b2o$1731b2o$1733bo!
EDIT: There's a clean-enough option that absorbs four gliders and lets the fifth through. Haven't turned up a five-glider absorber yet, but maybe there's a way to start up the gun a half cycle later, and adjust the southeast reflectors so that first glider to the SE isn't needed.

Code: Select all

x = 208, y = 197, rule = LifeHistory
.A$.2A$A.A11.A$13.2A$13.A.A62$78.A$77.2A$77.A.A62$142.A$141.2A$141.A.
A62$206.A$205.2A$205.A.A!
EDIT2: Nope, maybe not -- the first glider to the SW is also startup-critical, so that path would have to be shortened too... but if we do that, I think we end up needing five suppressions on the NE stream again.

User avatar
Macbi
Posts: 903
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 4:58 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Macbi » May 31st, 2018, 12:10 pm

dvgrn wrote:I believe this is the current-best pattern to try to simplify -- i.e., it includes calcyman's recent change but not anyone else's.

Code: Select all

x = 31193, y = 31087, rule = B3/S23
19bo$18bo3bo$19bo2bo$20b2o$19b2o2$19bobo$21bo$33b2o$33b2o7$35b2o$35b3o
$34bo2bo$35bo3bo$36bob3o$38b2o$37b3o$37b2o$37bo$38b2o3$12b2obo7b3o$12b
4o8b2o$11bo3bo5b2o3bo9bo$12b3o7bobobo9b2o$12b3o9b2o10bo2bo$2o12bo$2o
35bobo$38bo6$8b2o$8b2o10b3o$20b4o$19bo3b2o$24bo2b3o$19b2ob2o3bobo$20b
4o3b3o$21bo29821$29869b2o$29869b2o130$29961b2o$29960b2o$29962bo17$
29964b3o$29964bo$29965bo230$30560b2o$30559bobo$30558b3o14bo$30558b2o
13b3o$30561b2o9bo$30560b3o9b2o2$30568bo$30560b2o5bobo$30560b2o4bo2bo$
30567b2o10$30559bo$30557b2o$30558b2o22$30617b4o$30612b2o7bo$30612b2o2b
2o3bo$30616b2o2bo4$30612bo$30611bobo$30611bo2bo$30612b2o3$30616b2o$
30616bobo$30618bo$30574b2o25bo16b2o$30574b2o25b2o$30600bobo$30562b2o$
30562b2o19b2o$30583b2o16$30569b2o$30570bo$30567b3o$30495bo71bo$30493b
2o$30494b2o$30590b2o5b2o$30590b2o5bo$30595bobo$30537bobo55b2o$30537b2o
52b2o$30471b2o65bo40b2o10bobo$30472bo106b2o11bo$30472bobo120b3o$30473b
2o119bo$30594bo3bo$30594bo2bobo$30477b2o117bobo2bo$30476bo2bo88b2o27bo
3bo$30477bobo89bo19b2o10bo$30478bo90bobo17bo8b3o$30570b2o15bobo$30582b
o4b2o$30581bobo$30473b2o106bobo$30469b2obo2bob2o91b2o10bo$30469bo4bo2b
2o90bobo$30473bo95bo$30470bobo95b2o$30583b2o$30583bo$30570b3o11b3o$
30572bo13bo$30571bo6$30492b2o$30493bo$30493bobo$30494b2o3$30498b2o$
30497bo2bo$30498bobo$30499bo4$30491bo2b2o$30490bo3b2o2b2o$30490bo7b2o$
30491b4o10$30529bo63b2o$30527bobo63b2o$30528b2o78bo$30606b3o$30592b3o
10bo$30527bo64b2o11b2o$30528bo66b2o$30526b3o65b3o4bo$30593bobo4bobo$
30593b2o4bo2bo$30600b2o5$30503b4o$30502bo7b2o$30502bo3b2o2b2o$30503bo
2b2o99b3o$30607bo$30608bo2$30511bo$30510bobo$30509bo2bo$30510b2o2$
30518bo$30506b2o9b2o$30505bobo9bobo$30505bo$30504b2o10$30549b2o$30549b
2o7$30516bo$30515bobo$30514bo3bo$30515bo3bo8bo$30516bo3bo5b3o6b2o$
30517bo3bo3bo8bobo$30518bobo4b2o7bo$30519bo13b2o$30523bo$30522bobo$
30523b2o2b2o$30515bo11b2o$30513b3o$30512bo41b2o$30512b2o40bo$30502b2o
51b3o$30503bo53bo$30503bobo$30504b2o$30583bo$30513b2o69b2o5bo$30512b2o
b2o5b2o59b2o7bo$30511bo2b3o5b2o66b3o$30469b2o39bo4b2o$30469b2o38b2o3bo
$30508b4obo$30508b4o$30511b2o174bo$30553b2o132b2o$30553b2o131b2obo$
30508b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o$30509bo3bo33b2o135bobobo$30506b3o5b3o166bob
obo$30506bo9bo154b3o7b3o2bo$30549b2o120bo10bob2o$30542b2o5b2o121bo10b
2o$30542b2o136bo3bo$30679bobo$30478b2o2bo196b2o$30474b2o2b2o3bo199b2o$
30474b2o7bo199bobo$30479b4o195b2o5bo$30678b2o5b2o2$30514bo$30483bo30bo
bo$30482bobo29b2o$30481bo2bo$30482b2o3$30478b2o$30477bobo$30477bo$
30476b2o6$30560b2o$30560b2o$30498b2o46bo13b2o$30491b2o4bo2bo45b3o12bo$
30491b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$30491b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo$30492bo$30491bobo9b2o
48bo$30490b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$30504b3o45bo2bo4b2o$30506bo46b2o$30491b2o
$30491b2o11$30647bo$30648b2o5bo$30647b2o7bo$30654b3o10$30616bo$30616b
2o$30615bobo$30524b2o$30523bobo$30525bo3$30585bobo$30586b2o$30586bo20$
30623b2o$30623bo$30621bobo$30621b2o3$30617b2o$30616bo2bo$30616bobo$
30617bo4$30621b2o2bo$30617b2o2b2o3bo$30617b2o7bo$30622b4o18$30552bo$
30552b2o$30551bobo$30460b2o$30459bobo$30461bo119bo$30580bo$30580b3o24$
30589b2o$30540bo48bobo$30540b3o48bo$30543bo47b2o$30542b2o$30557b2o$
30557bo$30555bobo$30544bo10b2o$30543bobo5b2o98b2o$30543bobo4bo2bo98b2o
$30538b2o4bo6b2o98bo$30537bobo15b2o$30526b3o8bo17bobo$30525bo10b2o19bo
$30525bo3bo27b2o$30525bo2bobo$30527bobo2bo$30528bo3bo$30532bo$30529b3o
68b2o$30534bo11b2o51bobo$30533bobo10b2o53bo2b3o$30534b2o68bo$30530b2o
7b3o63bo$30529bobo7bo$30529bo5b2o3bo$30528b2o5b2o4$30558b2o$30558bo$
30488bo67bobo$30488b2o66b2o$30378bo108bobo$30377b3o16b2o$30376b3obo14b
obo$30377bo3bo15bo$30378bo3bo164bo$30379bob3o162bo$30380b3o162b2o$
30381bo163b3o$30385bo155b2o3bo2b3o$30384bobo154b2o3bob4o$30385b2o154b
2o2b2o2bobo$30381b2o155b2o3bobob2o2b3o$30380bobo154bobo13bo$30380bo5b
2o149bo15b2obo$30379b2o5b2o148b2o16b3o$30555bo6$30543b2o$30544bo$
30544bobo$30545b2o$30443b2o$30442b3o$30441bobo2bo2b2o$30441b2o2b2o2b2o
$30445b2o2$30563b2o$30562bo2bo99b2o$30450bo111bo2bo98b2o$30449bobo111b
2o101bo$30448bo2bo$30449b2o95b2o$30546b2o$30538b2o47b2o$30445b2o92bo
48b2o$30444bobo92bobo20b2o23bo$30444bo95b2o20b2o$30443b2o3$30559bo$
30557b3o$30556bo142b3o$30556b2o144bo$30698bo3bo$30697bobo2bo$30668b3o
24bo2bobo$30668bo26bo3bo$30669bo25bo$30696b3o$30693bo$30692bobo$30692b
2o$30536b2o158b2o$30536b2o158bobo$30478b2o211b2o5bo$30478bobo210b2o5b
2o$30478bo3$30445b2o$30444b2o$30446bo$30551b2o$30551b2o27$30648b3o$
30650bo$30649bo11$30748bo$30748b2o$30747b2obo$30746bo2b3o$30745bobobo$
30744bobobo$30732b3o7b3o2bo$30732bo10bob2o$30733bo10b2o$30741bo3bo$
30740bobo$30740b2o$30744b2o$30744bobo$30739b2o5bo$30542b2o195b2o5b2o$
30542bobo$30542bo3$30509b2o$30508b2o$30510bo9$30586b2o$30579b2o5b2o$
30579b2o3$30581b2o27b2o$30581b2o27b2o$30575b2o$30575b2o$30616b2o$
30616b2o$30612b2o$30612b2o4$30617b2o$30617b2o3$30584b3o$30586bo$30585b
o3$30577b2o$30576b2o2b2o$30576bob4o$30576b3o$30576b2o2b2o$30577b3o2bo
31bo$30570b2o5b2o2b3o28bobo$30570b2o7bo2bo30b2o$30579b3o$30580bo2$
30575b2o$30575b2o$30571b2o104bo$30571b2o104b2o$30612b2o62bobo$30612b2o
$30577b2o27b2o$30577b2o27b2o3$30608b2o$30601b2o5b2o$30601b2o5$30573b2o
$30572b2o$30574bo2$30576bo$30567b2o6bob2o$30567b2o6bobo$30576bo2$
30567b3o9b2o$30568b2o9bo$30565b2o13b3o$30565b3o14bo$30566bobo$30567b2o
2$30645b2o$30645b2o2b2o$30649bobo$30650bo$30653b3o$30647b2o3bo$30648bo
3bo3bo$30645b3o4bo2bobo$30645bo8bobo2bo$30655bo3bo$30659bo$30656b3o36$
31033bo$31031bobo$31032b2o$31036bo$31035bo$31035b3o6$31039bo$31038b2o$
31038bobo68$30963b2o$30962bobo$30964bo73$31190b2o$31190bobo$31190bo!
Just to be clear, the cordership stopping block and the glider that kills the BLSE don't actually need to be in the final synthesis. Right? They can both be included in the recipe.

User avatar
calcyman
Moderator
Posts: 2932
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by calcyman » May 31st, 2018, 12:20 pm

Macbi wrote:Just to be clear, the cordership stopping block and the glider that kills the BLSE don't actually need to be in the final synthesis. Right? They can both be included in the recipe.
Yes, absolutely correct. An advantage of the BLSE is that you can kill it from behind with a glider.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 10610
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by dvgrn » May 31st, 2018, 12:57 pm

calcyman wrote:
Macbi wrote:Just to be clear, the cordership stopping block and the glider that kills the BLSE don't actually need to be in the final synthesis. Right? They can both be included in the recipe.
Yes, absolutely correct. An advantage of the BLSE is that you can kill it from behind with a glider.
The cleanup suggestion calcyman made here seems like the way to go.

Mind you, leaving off the BLSE-killing glider to reduce N by one is an impressively impractical thing to do. Removing that one glider causes a cleanup problem on such a large scale that it's really hard to quantify. I thought about saying that the Cordership will have to be moved over a googol (10^100) times farther away to account for that one missing glider... but that seems like a fairly pathetic understatement, somewhat equivalent to saying that the visible universe contains at least three hydrogen atoms.

In fact, "three" may be a considerably better estimate of the Universe's hydrogen content than "a googol" is as a pattern size increase factor. Still, by all means, leave the glider out! Wouldn't want N to be any bigger than necessary...

User avatar
Macbi
Posts: 903
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 4:58 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Macbi » May 31st, 2018, 1:18 pm

calcyman wrote:
Macbi wrote:Just to be clear, the cordership stopping block and the glider that kills the BLSE don't actually need to be in the final synthesis. Right? They can both be included in the recipe.
Yes, absolutely correct. An advantage of the BLSE is that you can kill it from behind with a glider.
How exactly? The blocks get in the way of any glider that interacts with the BLSE except for a single lane on either side. But I can't find a collision on that lane that destroys the switch-engine.

But it doesn't really matter anyway. My solution was going to be a tubstretcher whose wick gets burnt at an appropriate time to cause an explosion as it overtakes the switch-engine.
Mind you, leaving off the BLSE-killing glider to reduce N by one is an impressively impractical thing to do. Removing that one glider causes a cleanup problem on such a large scale that it's really hard to quantify. I thought about saying that the Cordership will have to be moved over a googol (10^100) times farther away to account for that one missing glider... but that seems like a fairly pathetic understatement, somewhat equivalent to saying that the visible universe contains at least three hydrogen atoms.

In fact, "three" may be a considerably better estimate of the Universe's hydrogen content than "a googol" is as a size- increase estimate. Still, by all means, leave the glider out! Wouldn't want N to be any bigger than necessary...
Most of the size issues are caused by the fact that each extra thing we add to the recipe adds a certain number of digits to the cordership-distance. If you say that we've increased the number of digits from 300 to 400 it doesn't sound nearly so bad.

To put it another way, adding extra stuff to the recipe only adds a linear amount to the file size (RLE or MC).

Will Golly be able to simulate such patterns? Hashlife seems to have no problem with things very far from the origin.

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 10610
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by dvgrn » May 31st, 2018, 1:57 pm

Macbi wrote:Most of the size issues are caused by the fact that each extra thing we add to the recipe adds a certain number of digits to the cordership-distance. If you say that we've increased the number of digits from 300 to 400 it doesn't sound nearly so bad.

To put it another way, adding extra stuff to the recipe only adds a linear amount to the file size (RLE or MC).

Will Golly be able to simulate such patterns? Hashlife seems to have no problem with things very far from the origin.
No. There's another layer or two of horrible size-multiplying hideousness hidden in the new PULL/DFIRE design, which puts the smallest possible N-Glider-Construction pattern safely beyond anything that present or future Golly could ever hope to run.

We could simulate it -- keep dropping in tandem gliders representing input to the decoder, for example, and also simulate the block pulls. But we aren't ever going to be running a Cordership at its actual coordinates, or shooting down the BLSE at its actual final coordinates, or running the full pattern for the actual number of ticks required.

If you change the decoder input by adding one more PULL or DFIRE, that only doubles the size of the whole pattern, as you say.

But every time you change the recipe by adding just one more glider to the encoded slow salvo, you have to add some number P of PULLs followed by a DFIRE to the decoder input... and the required number of PULLs goes up 12 on average for every output glider you add.

It takes say 10-20 gliders to make the slow salvo produce one additional small constructed object. So call that a cost of 15P bits to feed into the decoder per added object, with P very very large by the time the last DFIRE comes along.

By the time you've finished constructing whatever you actually want to construct (that ordinarily takes more than 500 gliders) -- plus a meteor-shower seed that can cleanly destroy the entire reverse caber tosser -- plus a seed for a BLSE-stopping glider salvo, followed by a salvo that converts the resulting mess into a Cordership eater -- plus a seed for whatever actual Cordership-based technology is needed to clean up leftover blocks, probably period 288 (I think) so not particularly small or cheap...

P is going to be pretty big by the time we're done with all that, even if the actual thing we're constructing is fairly minimal. And then the size of the pattern (due to the position of the Cordership) gets multiplied by 2^P, not just P which would be bad enough... every time we add one more glider to the salvo, let alone one 20-slow-glider constructed object.

EDIT: Changed my original "k" to "P", so it didn't read like I was saying "k" meaning 1000. P is going to be a lot bigger than 1000, only a few hundred bits into the recipe.
Macbi wrote:The blocks get in the way of any glider that interacts with the BLSE except for a single lane on either side. But I can't find a collision on that lane that destroys the switch-engine.
I don't think there's a single glider collision, but we're allowed to build seeds to send synchronized salvos, and those can definitely do the trick. If a specific example has been given somewhere, I don't remember it and can't find it offhand.

If a search doesn't turn up anything natural that stops the BLSE without emitting gliders, add more following gliders to this initial glider --

Code: Select all

x = 609, y = 660, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o574$601bo$599bobo$600b2o$604bo$603bo$603b3o6$607bo$606b2o$
606bobo68$531b2o$530bobo$532bo!
-- maybe after advancing it by up to 22 ticks. Get that collision to produce a single sideways glider, let that fly for a while until it's farther south than the BLSE, then send more gliders to hit that glider and turn it into an *WSS heading east to intersect with the BLSE. That should kill it for sure, without sending out any extra flying junk.

Then you can send a follow-up slow salvo to clean up any ash objects that would trip up the block-cleaning Cordership, and prepare a Cordership eater.

EDIT2: Here's a sample pair of gliders that stops the BLSE and produces only gliders that can be shot down by adding more synchronized gliders to the salvo. So it's just a matter of running a search on glider pairs and picking the least messy option (if that hasn't been done already).

Code: Select all

x = 631, y = 668, rule = B3/S23
obo$b2o$bo8$24bobo$25b2o$25bo572$622bo$623b2o$622b2o2$625bobo$625b2o$
626bo5$628b2o$628bobo$628bo68$553b2o$554b2o$553bo!

User avatar
Macbi
Posts: 903
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 4:58 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Macbi » May 31st, 2018, 3:36 pm

I see. If d is the number of DFIREs then P is about 12d(d-1)/2 ~ 6d^2. So the cordership-distance is about 2^(6d^2). So the number of bits is about 6d^2.

Can you explain why future Golly couldn't hope to run such a pattern? With my computer's 16GB of memory, we could store the distance for d ~ 50 000. Obviously Golly has more stuff to do than just store a big number, and obviously we might need more DFIREs than 50 000, but it seems like we're only a few of orders of magnitude away at most, and hence well within what should be possible with near future technology.

User avatar
calcyman
Moderator
Posts: 2932
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by calcyman » May 31st, 2018, 4:28 pm

Macbi wrote:I see. If d is the number of DFIREs then P is about 12d(d-1)/2 ~ 6d^2. So the cordership-distance is about 2^(6d^2). So the number of bits is about 6d^2.
Hence why the first thing you would construct is a decoder and better construction arm, and pipe the remaining PULL/DFIRE salvos into that decoder (interpreted as arbitrary binary data). Then you only have exp(horribleness) instead of exp(horribleness^2).

With that in mind, a factor of a googol can provide 332 bits of data, which might be enough (provided the decoder is sufficiently sophisticated) to do the cleanup.
How exactly? The blocks get in the way of any glider that interacts with the BLSE except for a single lane on either side. But I can't find a collision on that lane that destroys the switch-engine.
Good point. I can do it with four, though, and this avoids having any complicated 'waiting circuitry':

Code: Select all

x = 492, y = 630, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o36$8bo$6bobo$7b2o182$41bo$39bobo$40b2o6$66bo$64bobo$65b2o
308$414b2o$413bobo$414bo17$405bo$404bobo$405b2o6$440b2o$440b2o2$434b2o
$434b2o$417bo$417bo$417bo12b2o$430b2o16b2o$448b2o3$420b2o$420b2o5$443b
2o$443b2o3$439b2o$439b2o$464b2o$464b2o2$458b2o$436b2o20b2o$436b2o2$
454b2o$454b2o16b2o$472b2o3$444b2o$444b2o20b2o$465bo2bo$465bo2bo$466bob
o11b2o$480b2o2$455b3o$452b2o4b2o$456bo$452b2o4bo2b3o$457b4o$455b3ob2ob
o$461bo6b3o$468bo2bo$467bo3bo$460b2o5b4o12bo$460b2o6bo14bob2o$482bobob
2o$476bo4b3o4b2o$475bobo3b3obo2bo2bo$482bo2b3o3bo$468b3o20bo$484b4ob2o
$485bo2bo$488bo$486b2o!
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 10610
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by dvgrn » May 31st, 2018, 4:39 pm

Macbi wrote:I see. If d is the number of DFIREs then P is about 12d(d-1)/2 ~ 6d^2. So the cordership-distance is about 2^(6d^2). So the number of bits is about 6d^2.

Can you explain why future Golly couldn't hope to run such a pattern? With my computer's 16GB of memory, we could store the distance for d ~ 50 000. Obviously Golly has more stuff to do than just store a big number, and obviously we might need more DFIREs than 50 000, but it seems like we're only a few of orders of magnitude away at most, and hence well within what should be possible with near future technology.
Well... I did say that we could maybe _simulate_ a pattern along these lines, by sending a series of PUSH / DFIRE tandem gliders in, ignoring the return gliders, and somehow keeping track of the position of the next elbow block produced by the BLSE.

Preferably we'd do this without actually generating and storing all those blocks -- remembering the locations of 2^(6d^2) blocks would take an inordinate amount of memory all by itself, even with the logarithmic efficiency of macrocell format. And if I'm visualizing this stuff right, we'll actually have a _lot_ more blocks than that, the grand majority of which will just get cleaned up afterwards.

So when I say "can't be run in future Golly", I'm definitely thinking of having some flavor of HashLife representing the pattern in some flavor of macrocell hashtile tree format. If we write a custom simulator specific to these patterns, it's not exactly (what I'm thinking of as) Golly any more.

These patterns are not particularly HashLife-friendly. For example, if you have the step size high enough to allow a successful shortcut for the boring back-and-forth glider travel to collect bit number K, then just a dozen steps later, the pattern will be producing over a thousand bits per step. I don't think HashLife can really work efficiently in that situation, when so many hashtiles are involved and the most efficient step size changes pretty much continuously.

Does that answer the question?

(Also, of course, I could just be wrong. But I think we're lots more than just a couple of orders of magnitude away from being able to actually "run" one of these things, at least according to my definition of "run".)

User avatar
Macbi
Posts: 903
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 4:58 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Macbi » May 31st, 2018, 4:56 pm

calcyman wrote:Hence why the first thing you would construct is a decoder and better construction arm, and pipe the remaining PULL/DFIRE salvos into that decoder (interpreted as arbitrary binary data). Then you only have exp(horribleness) instead of exp(horribleness^2).
This sounds like it would definitely be the best way to do it, but only if we can perform an upgrade to the construction arm for fewer gliders than we would need anyway. I suppose the most important thing is to regain PUSH and FIRE, so that we no longer have to use quadratically many resources.
dvgrn wrote:(Also, of course, I could just be wrong. But I think we're lots more than just a couple of orders of magnitude away from being able to actually "run" one of these things, at least according to my definition of "run".)
I suppose it's unnecessary to try to anticipate in advance how good HashLife will be at running these sorts of patterns. We can just wait until we have a script for constructing an MC file of the initial state, and then run it for larger and larger recipes and see what its asymptotics are.

User avatar
Redstoneboi
Posts: 429
Joined: May 14th, 2018, 3:57 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Redstoneboi » May 31st, 2018, 5:06 pm

Whatever it is, I think it’ll perform better than the linear propagator.
c(>^w^<c)~*
This is 「Fluffy」
「Fluffy」is my sutando.
「Fluffy」has the ability to engineer r e p l i c a t o r s.
「Fluffy」likes to watch spaceship guns in Golly.
「Fluffy」knows Natsuki best girl.

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 10610
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by dvgrn » May 31st, 2018, 6:04 pm

Macbi wrote:I suppose it's unnecessary to try to anticipate in advance how good HashLife will be at running these sorts of patterns. We can just wait until we have a script for constructing an MC file of the initial state, and then run it for larger and larger recipes and see what its asymptotics are.
There's no need to wait for actual recipes to get some good rough performance numbers, though.

An experiment could certainly be done to write .MC files that place a Cordership at exponentially increasing distances from a reverse caber tosser, and then run each resulting pattern long enough to get say the first ten bits out of the current decoder. We could just add eaters to block off the PULL/DFIRE salvo, and pick an arbitrary spot for the Cordership.

I don't know exactly what the worst bottleneck will turn out to be, but on any likely current or near-future computer system, well before we hit the eighth-of-a-terabyte mark (see below), I strongly suspect Golly will stop being able to handle such files very well in practice.

-----------------------------------------------------

50,000 DFIREs seems like a reasonable ballpark estimate for building calcyman's suggested "decoder and better construction arm", switching the circuitry over, and then setting up something to delete both this new larger cleverer device and the original reverse caber tosser.

50,000 DFIREs means 15 billion bits coming back from the Cordership. We basically have to add a new level of hashtile for each bit as the pattern size keeps doubling. That implies a macrocell file containing something on the order of 15 billion lines, most of which will look like this:

Code: Select all

...
14999990998 0 0 0 15000000000
14999990999 0 0 0 15000000001
...
Thirty bytes per line and fifteen billion lines gets you to an initial pattern size of half a terabyte in .MC format.

RLE isn't much of an improvement even if you put the Cordership synthesis in the southwest -- even discounting the extra processing needed before HashLife can work with the pattern. The synthesis has only 45 ON cells, but each time you mention a vertical distance [once] or a horizontal distance [about 24 distinct lines] it takes up ten gigabytes... right? Or no, only five gigabytes, we don't need both the X and Y coordinates at once. So that's an eighth of a terabyte, or many times worse if the Cordership stays in its current position in the far upper left (!).

Either format would compress to a smaller size, of course, but then you have to take the time and memory to decompress it. If we're running in HashLife, if I remember right, the pattern will be stored somewhat more efficiently in RAM than the on-disk .MC file, but only by a constant factor -- we still need to remember over 15 billion distinct hashtiles just for the initial state.

The linear propagator is going to look like a speed demon by comparison... at least it actually gets some construction done eventually.

User avatar
calcyman
Moderator
Posts: 2932
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by calcyman » May 31st, 2018, 6:41 pm

dvgrn wrote:50,000 DFIREs seems like a reasonable ballpark estimate for building calcyman's suggested "decoder and better construction arm", switching the circuitry over, and then setting up something to delete both this new larger cleverer device and the original reverse caber tosser.
Well, once you've switched over to the "decoder and better construction arm", cleanup and everything else is super-cheap (by comparison!). So you only need to worry about building the DBCA.

Until this point, however, there's another layer of abstraction: the fact that we need to operate a secondary elbow in order to bootstrap from 'monophase monochromatic' to 'biphase bichromatic'.

It actually might be most efficient to have (at least!) two levels of bootstrapping: the first to emplace a lightweight 'block keeper' to provide a source of blocks that don't recede by ~12fd each time, and the second to build the full DBCA. The 'block keeper' can be incredibly simple; it just needs to be some stable circuitry that captures a PULL and generates a block on the correct lane.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

User avatar
calcyman
Moderator
Posts: 2932
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by calcyman » June 1st, 2018, 2:56 am

calcyman wrote:It actually might be most efficient to have (at least!) two levels of bootstrapping: the first to emplace a lightweight 'block keeper' to provide a source of blocks that don't recede by ~12fd each time, and the second to build the full DBCA. The 'block keeper' can be incredibly simple; it just needs to be some stable circuitry that captures a PULL and generates a block on the correct lane.
Simpler than I thought, actually. The PULL signal can fly like a G6 into a Herschel receiver:

Code: Select all

x = 50, y = 67, rule = B3/S23
bo$2bo$3o4bobo$8b2o$8bo17$38b2o$38b2o$43bo$41b3o$40bo$28bo11b2o$18b2o
7bobo$18b2o7bobo$28bo5$30b2o$30b2o$44b2o$44b2o$48b2o$48b2o14$24b2o$24b
obo$25bo7$20bob2o$20b2obo2$29b2o$29b2o!
The Herschel output can subsequently be channeled around to produce a block on the correct lane ahead of the receiver. Is there a good edgy H-to-block to produce enough far east movement to emplace the block in the correct location without encroaching on the envelope of the PULL operations?
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

User avatar
calcyman
Moderator
Posts: 2932
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by calcyman » June 1st, 2018, 8:04 am

calcyman wrote:Is there a good edgy H-to-block to produce enough far east movement to emplace the block in the correct location without encroaching on the envelope of the PULL operations?
This works quite well, and is Spartan:

Code: Select all

x = 120, y = 156, rule = LifeHistory
.D$2BD$3DB3.DBD$.4B2.B2DB$2.4B2.D3B$3.4B2.4B$4.4B2.4B$5.4B2.4B$6.4B2.
4B$7.4B2.4B$8.4B2.4B$9.4B2.4B$10.4B2.4B$11.4B2.4B$12.4B2.4B$13.4B2.4B
$14.4B2.4B$15.4B2.4B$16.4B2.4B$17.4B2.4B$18.4B2.4B$19.4B2.4B$20.4B2.
4B$21.4B2.4B$22.4B2.4B$23.4B2.4B$24.4B2.4B$25.4B2.4B$26.4B2.4B$27.4B
2.4B$28.4B2.4B$29.4B2.4B$30.4B2.4B$31.4B2.4B$32.4B2.4B$33.4B2.4B$34.
4B2.4B$35.4B2.4B$36.4B2.4B$37.4B2.4B$38.4B2.4B$39.4B2.4B$40.4B2.4B$
41.4B2.4B2.2B$42.4B2.8B$43.4B2.9B$44.4B2.9B$45.14B$46.12B$47.10B$48.
3B2C5B$49.2B2CB.4B$48.6B2.4B$47.8B2.4B$47.9B2.4B$46.11B2.4B$45.13B2.
4B$44.15B2.4B$43.17B2.4B$42.19B2.4B$41.16B.4B2.4B$41.16B2.4B2.4B$41.
16B3.4B2.4B$36.2A4.14B5.4B2.4B$36.A.A2.14B7.4B2.4B$37.A18B7.4B2.4B$
39.18B7.4B2.4B$39.17B9.4B2.4B$38.17B11.4B2.4B$36.18B3.2A8.4B2.4B$29.B
.23B2.B2AB8.4B2.4B$28.2AB.22B2.4B9.4B2.4B$28.2A26B.3B2.B7.4B2.4B$29.
2B.32B7.4B2.4B$32.33B7.4B2.4B$31.34B8.4B2.4B$31.34B9.4B2.4B$29.2AB4.
29B10.4B2.4B$28.A.AB3.30B11.4B2.4B$28.A6.30B12.4B2.4B$27.2A4.2AB2.14B
.11B14.4B2.4B$32.A.AB3.4B.16B.2B16.4B2.4B$32.A11.12B4.4B16.4B2.4B$31.
2A11.12B4.B2AB17.4B2.4B$45.11B5.2A19.4B2.4B$43.4B.4B3DB27.4B2.4B$43.
2A4.4BD2B28.4B2.4B$44.A4.2B3D2B29.4B2.4B5.B.2B$41.3A6.6B30.4B2.4B3.5B
$41.A8.7B30.4B2.4B2.7B$52.B.4B30.4B2.13B.B$55.4B30.4B2.11B.B2A$56.3B
31.4B2.12B2A$58.B2A30.4B2.9B.2B4.A$58.BA.A30.4B.9B5.3A$61.A30.15B3.A$
61.2A26.2B.6BA10B.2A$88.2A7BABA12B$88.2AB.5BABA10B$89.B.7BA12B$92.18B
.B$93.20B$93.20B$94.18B$95.5B2A10B$95.5B2A10B$96.15B2.B2A$97.15B.B2A.
2B$98.20B2A$98.20B2A$99.17B.2B$100.15B$101.14B$101.13B$102.10B$102.
10B$103.8B$103.8B$100.10B$99.2BD8B$98.3B3D6B$99.3BD6B$99.10B$94.2A.7B
.3B$94.A.A10B$95.AB.9B$98.8B$98.8B$97.7B$98.6B$98.6B$97.7B$90.A.2A2.
8B$90.2A.A12B$95.11B$95.4B2A5B$96.3B2A5B$96.10B$97.9B$97.9B$97.8B$98.
8B$99.6B$99.6B$99.6B$98.7B$98.6B$99.6B$99.5B$98.6B$98.6B$99.5B$99.3D
2B$100.BDB$100.3D$101.B!
Connecting the Herschels up is a simple matter of Hersrch.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

User avatar
Goldtiger997
Posts: 762
Joined: June 21st, 2016, 8:00 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Goldtiger997 » June 1st, 2018, 8:07 am

dvgrn wrote:No. There's another layer or two of horrible size-multiplying hideousness hidden in the new PULL/DFIRE design, which puts the smallest possible N-Glider-Construction pattern safely beyond anything that present or future Golly could ever hope to run.
Well that is unfortunate (but not that surprising in retrospect). At least we will still be able to create pattern files.

Anyway, so that this post actually has some material, here is my current process on the synthesis (not much):

Code: Select all

x = 504, y = 770, rule = B3/S23
184b2o$183bobo$182b3o14bo$182b2o13b3o$185b2o9bo$184b3o9b2o2$192bo$184b
2o5bobo$184b2o4bo2bo$191b2o34$241b4o$236b2o7bo$236b2o2b2o3bo$240b2o2bo
4$236bo$235bobo$235bo2bo$236b2o3$240b2o$240bobo$242bo$198b2o42b2o$198b
2o2$186b2o$186b2o19b2o$207b2o5$60bo$58bobo$59b2o4$66bo$67b2o$66b2o3$
193b2o$194bo$191b3o$191bo3$214b2o5b2o$75bo138b2o5bo$76bo142bobo$74b3o
142b2o$215b2o$95b2o106b2o10bobo$96bo106b2o11bo$96bobo120b3o$97b2o119bo
$218bo3bo$218bo2bobo$220bobo2bo$192b2o27bo3bo$193bo19b2o10bo$193bobo
17bo8b3o$194b2o15bobo$206bo4b2o$92bo112bobo$90bobo112bobo$91b2o101b2o
10bo$104bo88bobo$105bo87bo$103b3o86b2o$207b2o$207bo$101b3o104b3o$103bo
106bo$102bo$120bobo$99bo21b2o$97bobo21bo$98b2o2$116b2o$117bo$105bo11bo
bo$106b2o10b2o$105b2o12$69b3o51bo$71bo51b2o$70bo51bobo$111b2o$110bobo$
112bo2$79bo$79b2o$78bobo$108b3o106b2o$110bo106b2o$109bo122bo$230b3o$
216b3o10bo$216b2o11b2o$219b2o$218b3o4bo$217bobo4bobo$134b3o80b2o4bo2bo
$134bo89b2o$135bo4$127b4o$126bo7b2o$126bo3b2o2b2o$127bo2b2o4$135bo$
134bobo$133bo2bo$134b2o3$130b2o$129bobo$129bo63bo$128b2o62bobo$192b2o
9$173b2o$173b2o7$140bo$139bobo$138bo3bo$139bo3bo8bo$140bo3bo5b3o6b2o$
141bo3bo3bo8bobo$142bobo4b2o7bo$143bo13b2o$147bo$146bobo$147b2o2b2o$
139bo11b2o$137b3o$136bo41b2o$136b2o40bo$126b2o51b3o$127bo53bo$127bobo$
128b2o4b2o$133bo2bo$134b2o$146b2o$146b2o$93b2o$93b2o3$311bo$177b2o132b
2o$177b2o131b2obo$132b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o$133bo3bo33b2o135bobobo$130b
3o5b3o166bobobo$130bo9bo164b3o2bo$173b2o131bob2o$166b2o5b2o132b2o$166b
2o136bo3bo$303bobo$102b2o2bo196b2o$98b2o2b2o3bo199b2o$98b2o7bo199bobo$
103b4o195b2o5bo$302b2o5b2o3$107bo$106bobo$105bo2bo$106b2o3$102b2o$101b
obo$101bo36bo$100b2o35bobo$137b2o5$184b2o$184b2o$122b2o46bo13b2o$115b
2o4bo2bo45b3o12bo$115b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$115b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo$116bo$
115bobo9b2o48bo$114b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$128b3o45bo2bo4b2o$130bo46b2o$
115b2o$115b2o54$247b2o$247bo$245bobo$245b2o12bo$257b2o$258b2o$241b2o$
240bo2bo$240bobo$241bo9bo$250bo$250b3o7$248bo$247b2o$247bobo7$236bo$
236b2o$235bobo31$210bo$208bobo$209b2o7bo$216b2o$217b2o2$164bo$164b3o$
167bo$166b2o$181b2o$181bo$179bobo$168bo10b2o$167bobo$167bobo$162b2o4bo
$161bobo$150b3o8bo$149bo10b2o15b3o$149bo3bo25bo$149bo2bobo23bo$151bobo
2bo25b2o$152bo3bo21bo2b2o$156bo21b2o3bo$153b3o21bobo$158bo$157bobo9b3o
$158b2o11bo11b2o$154b2o14bo12bobo$153bobo16b3o8bo$153bo5b2o11bo$152b2o
5b2o12bo8$2bo$b3o174bobo$3obo173b2o$bo3bo163bobo7bo$2bo3bo162b2o$3bob
3o78bo69bo13bo$4b3o78bo68bobo26bobo$5bo79b3o67b2o26b2o$9bo174bo$8bobo$
9b2o183b2o$5b2o167b2o18bobo$4bobo167bobo17bo$4bo5b2o162bo$3b2o5b2o48bo
$61bo125bo$59b3o124b2o$186bobo4$63bo$61bobo113bo$62b2o114b2o$73bobo
101b2o$74b2o$74bo4$162bobo$163b2o$158b2o3bo$157bobo$159bo21bo$180b2o$
180bobo$172bo$56b2o115b2o$57b2o10b2o95bo5b2o$56bo11bobo95b2o$68bo96bob
o$67b2o$159b2o$49b2o107bobo$48bobo21bo87bo9bo$50bo21b2o95b2o24b3o$71bo
bo95bobo23bo127b3o$196bo129bo$322bo3bo$177b2o142bobo2bo$176bobo140bo2b
obo$178bo140bo3bo$319bo$320b3o$317bo$170b2o144bobo$169bobo144b2o$171bo
148b2o$159b3o158bobo$161bo153b2o5bo$160bo154b2o5b2o$162b3o$162bo$163bo
5$174b3o$176bo$175bo$177b3o$177bo$178bo55$203bo$204bo$202b3o7$202bo5bo
bo$200bobo5b2o$201b2o6bo5$234b2o$234b2o3$240b2o$195bo4b2o38b2o$195b2o
2bobo8b2o24b2o$194bobo4bo7b2o25b2o$211bo3$241b2o$241b2o11$215bo$213bob
o$214b2o$194b2o$194b2o3$225bo$199b2o25b2o7bo4bobo$199b2o24b2o8bobo2b2o
$195b2o14b3o21b2o4bo$195b2o16bo$212bo2$201b2o$201b2o5$227bo6b2o$227b2o
5bobo$226bobo5bo7$232b3o$232bo$201bo31bo$202bo$200b3o2$203bo$203b2o$
202bobo32$500bo$500b2o$499b2obo$498bo2b3o$497bobobo$496bobobo$494b3o2b
o$495bob2o$496b2o$493bo3bo$492bobo$492b2o$496b2o$496bobo$491b2o5bo$
491b2o5b2o85$397b2o$397b2o2b2o$401bobo$402bo$405b3o$399b2o3bo$400bo3bo
3bo$397b3o4bo2bobo$397bo8bobo2bo$407bo3bo$411bo$408b3o!

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 10610
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by dvgrn » June 1st, 2018, 8:46 am

calcyman wrote:
calcyman wrote:Is there a good edgy H-to-block to produce enough far east movement to emplace the block in the correct location without encroaching on the envelope of the PULL operations?
This works quite well, and is Spartan...
I was going to suggest this one, from the factories thread -- minimal still life count, but the still life is an eater2 and the Herschel has to come from the other side of the PULL/DFIRE lane, so it would all come out about the same probably.

Code: Select all

x = 30, y = 20, rule = LifeHistory
7.ABA$7.B2AB$8.A3B13.A$9.4B11.A.A$10.3B11.A.A$10.2B11.2A.3A$9.3B2.4B
6.B4.A$8.2BAB.2C5B3.2AB3A$7.BABA2B2C7B.2A.A$6.3B2A10B.3B$6.17B$7.17B$
B3.2B2.16B$11BD12B$11BDBD4B.4B$11B3D4B2.B$13BD4B$17B$5B.4B$B5.3B!
calcyman wrote:...there's another layer of abstraction: the fact that we need to operate a secondary elbow in order to bootstrap from 'monophase monochromatic' to 'biphase bichromatic'.
You know, I forgot all about that extra factor of twenty or so in doing the file size estimates. We can keep the estimates the same -- i.e., a near-terabyte absolute minimum for classical Golly file sizes and memory requirements -- by saying that 50,000 / 20 = 2,500 DFIREs might be needed just to build the block-keeper that we're talking about here.

That number would be lower, but half a dozen still lifes are either right on or dangerously close to the PULL/DFIRE lane, so they can't be built with a simple slow salvo.

Instead, we have to build a complex seed that drops that constellation into place all at once. The simplest way is probably a freeze-dried slow salvo; a nice feature of those is that you can build them with monochromatic slow salvos, but they can perfectly well produce P2 polychromatic slow salvos (or even synchronized salvos if you want).

I don't have a good way to estimate cost for this kind of thing, because nobody has ever actually built anything this complicated directly on a construction-arm lane, using freeze-dried slow salvos or anything else -- the only possible exception being the Snarkmaker recipe, but that used a 0-degree glider trick that can't be made to work directly on the PULL/DFIRE lane. But 2,500 DFIREs definitely seems likely to be within an order of magnitude, and for this project that ought to count as high-precision.

Anyway, I'm not going to bother firing up Hersrch to make that connection, because it doesn't matter to the value of N. As far as I can see, all these speculations about DBCAs amount to variations on Hyper-Complex Things That We're Never Going To Have An Explicit Recipe For -- just like the computer/constructor/replicator designs from the early universality proofs.

If we just collect "the first thing that works" for each problem category into a big pile, that will be good enough to show that N really is the maximum number of gliders needed for any glider construction. Let's not get too sidetracked until we have a nice solid upper bound for N.

User avatar
Extrementhusiast
Posts: 1966
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Extrementhusiast » June 1st, 2018, 7:29 pm

Would it help if I started looking for a way to get back three or more gliders, even if it requires sending over three or more gliders (as it would presumably help simplify the translation circuitry)? Or is the two-glider solution enough (one glider for each possible bit value)?

(Sorry if this is obvious; I feel much more attuned to the micro-scale of things than the macro-scale.)
I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 10610
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by dvgrn » June 1st, 2018, 11:05 pm

Extrementhusiast wrote:Would it help if I started looking for a way to get back three or more gliders, even if it requires sending over three or more gliders (as it would presumably help simplify the translation circuitry)? Or is the two-glider solution enough (one glider for each possible bit value)?
Two gliders is plenty. Now that calcyman has noticed that the binary choice of PULL / DFIRE is good enough for universality (given a source of elbow blocks!) and it turned out that DFIRE was just PULL plus an optional glider, it would be kind of hard to go back to the complicated old trinary system with PUSH / PULL / FIRE.

If you could find a way to put one glider in and get one glider out, that might possibly be worth taking a fresh look at... but really having the two return gliders is nice. With only one return glider you'd have to either duplicate it before testing the timing, or do the first timing test with a Heisenburp -- both of which are expensive.

So we're already pretty near optimal for the gliders reflected from the Cordership -- and also for the construction-arm salvo. I mean, it's only three gliders, and I'm _fairly_ sure there's no way to do a PULL / DFIRE with different subsets of only two gliders.

-- Feel free to prove me wrong, though! Just for example, here's something I never thought to look for before: the pattern below is the nearest thing in the world to a workable PUSH / DFIRE combination, with just a two-glider salvo. If the boat had just happened to reappear (0,1) or (-2,-1) away from where it did, we might have a contender for a smaller initial decoder.

Code: Select all

x = 30, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory
4.A19.A$5.A19.A$3.3A17.3A2$D19.A$.2D18.2A$2D6.2C10.2A6.2C$7.C.C17.C.C
$8.C19.C!
#C [[ THUMBNAIL THUMBSIZE 2 HEIGHT 320 ]]
(It's a little weird and complicated, but oddly enough PUSH / DFIRE could work, along with a Spartan boat factory. It would only allow a limited range of output lanes -- but we only need a limited range, because we have to have a secondary elbow anyway, and the slow salvo after that elbow wouldn't inherit any lane, phase, or color limitations.)

Anyway, I kind of think that a boat is about the only possible elbow that is common enough to have any chance of reappearing on a diagonal when you hit it with just two gliders... and that produces an output glider when you hit it with one of the two gliders! I'll be really surprised if that happens with a long boat or an eater1 or a toad, or any kind of two-object constellation.

-- Okay, so probably never mind that. Another unlikely but possible improvement would be if the Cordership returned a glider or two when you hit it with... some pair of gliders that's particularly cheap to generate, like from a Spartan H-to-2G -- SW25T179 let's say:

Code: Select all

x = 52, y = 34, rule = LifeHistory
$24.A9.2A$24.3A6.B2AB$27.A5.3B$26.2A3.B.2B7.A$21.B4.3B.6B4.3A$16.B3.
3B5.8B3.A$15.2B.6B3.10B2.2A$12.5B.7B2.14B$6.2B2.A28B$3.8B2AD27B$3.9BA
CBD26B$3.10BDCDB2A23B$3.6B5ABDB2A21B$3.9BA28B$3.4B.4B2.26B$8.3B5.B2.
19B$18.19B$17.21B$16.9B2.11B$15.4B.5B2.11B$14.4B2.4B3.9B.B2A$13.4B11.
8B.BA.A$12.4B11.9B4.A$11.4B11.9B5.2A$10.4B11.4B2.3B$9.4B11.4B4.B$8.4B
11.4B$22.4B$21.4B$20.4B$19.4B$18.4B$17.4B!
It's not really clear to me that that would necessarily make for cheaper circuitry overall. A 4 x R64 gun plus a few reflectors really isn't all that expensive to construct. But there might be something like that out there that would squeak in and reduce N by a little bit.

Let's see, we could also have PULL / DFIRE salvos where two of the gliders are made by a cheap Spartan H-to-2G. SW8T86, maybe? There's a potential 3fd block pull that that can do already... but it would be necessary to break new ground in slow salvo searches to prove that monochromatic salvos are universal, when you can only use one out of three monochromatic lanes. So -- probably not, again, but you get the general idea: we're looking for any cheap-to-build tandem gliders that might be usable in some unexpected way.

[And everybody will be just as happy if we don't find anything, since that means we don't have to rebuild everything a third time. Really it already seems pretty amazing how small a number N is turning out to be.]

User avatar
Goldtiger997
Posts: 762
Joined: June 21st, 2016, 8:00 am

Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Post by Goldtiger997 » June 8th, 2018, 5:50 am

I've finished an "unassembled" synthesis of the (Formichev) universal constructor:

Code: Select all

x = 4499, y = 1722, rule = B3/S23
2765bo$2766b2o$2765b2o233$2813bo$2811bobo$2812b2o35$2863bo$2864bo$
2862b3o6$2853bo$2854b2o$2853b2o15$2866bo$2867b2o$2866b2o$2879bo$2877bo
bo$2878b2o6$2875bobo$2865bobo8b2o$2866b2o8bo$2866bo298$1731bo706b2o$
1730bo706bobo$1730b3o703b3o14bo$2436b2o13b3o$2439b2o9bo$2438b3o9b2o2$
2446bo$1724bobo711b2o5bobo$1724b2o712b2o4bo2bo1056b2o$1725bo719b2o
1056bobo$1704bo1797b3o14bo$1702bobo16bo1780b2o13b3o$1703b2o17bo1782b2o
9bo$1713bo6b3o1781b3o9b2o$1714bo$1705bo6b3o1797bo$1706bo1797b2o5bobo$
1704b3o1797b2o4bo2bo$3511b2o8$1718b2o$1719b2o$1718bo4$1708b3o$1710bo$
1694b2o13bo$1693bobo$1695bo3$1755bo$1756bo$1754b3o2$2495b4o$2490b2o7bo
$2490b2o2b2o3bo$2494b2o2bo2$1779bo$1778bo$1773bo4b3o709bo$1773bobo713b
obo$1773b2o714bo2bo1068b4o$2447bo42b2o1064b2o7bo$1758bo687bo1109b2o2b
2o3bo$1756bobo687b3o1111b2o2bo$1757b2o677bo57b2o$2437bo14bo41bobo$
1775bo659b3o15bo42bo$1775bobo673b3o42b2o1058bo$1775b2o1778bobo$3555bo
2bo$3556b2o2$1762bobo689bo2bo$1763b2o687bobo2bobo1100b2o$1763bo13bo
675b2o2b2o1101bobo$1777bobo1782bo$1777b2o1739b2o42b2o$2314bo1203b2o$
1782b2o528bobo$1781b2o530b2o1191b2o$1783bo1722b2o19b2o$1675bo1851b2o$
1676bo$1674b3o643bo$1789b2o530b2o$1687bobo99bobo528b2o$1688b2o99bo$
1688bo$2447b2o$2448bo$2445b3o$1744bo700bo$1744bobo$1744b2o$1699bo768b
2o5b2o$1700b2o627bo138b2o5bo$1699b2o629bo142bobo$2328b3o142b2o1038b2o$
1748bo720b2o1043bo$1748bobo598b2o106b2o10bobo1039b3o$1748b2o600bo106b
2o11bo1040bo$1726bo623bobo120b3o$1725bo625b2o119bo$1725b3o744bo3bo
1057b2o5b2o$2472bo2bobo1056b2o5bo$1724bo749bobo2bo1059bobo$1723b2o721b
2o27bo3bo1059b2o$1723bobo721bo19b2o10bo1055b2o$1746bo700bobo17bo8b3o
936b2o106b2o10bobo$1719bo24b2o12bobo687b2o15bobo948bo106b2o11bo$1720bo
16b2o6b2o11b2o700bo4b2o949bobo120b3o$1718b3o15bobo20bo586bo112bobo955b
2o119bo$1738bo13bo591bobo112bobo1076bo3bo$1751b2o592b2o101b2o10bo1077b
o2bobo$1751bobo604bo88bobo971b2o117bobo2bo$1746b3o610bo87bo972bo2bo88b
2o27bo3bo$1748bo608b3o86b2o973bobo89bo19b2o10bo$1722bo24bo713b2o959bo
90bobo17bo8b3o$1720bobo738bo1052b2o15bobo$1721b2o18b3o611b3o104b3o
1061bo4b2o$1743bo613bo106bo1060bobo$1742bo613bo1060b2o106bobo$2374bobo
1036b2obo2bob2o91b2o10bo$2353bo21b2o1036bo4bo2b2o90bobo$1728bobo29b2o
589bobo21bo1041bo95bo$1718bobo8b2o29bobo589b2o1060bobo95b2o$1719b2o8bo
30bo1766b2o$1714bo4bo4b3o643b2o1155bo$1714b2o10bo644bo1156b3o$1713bobo
9bo11b2o620bo11bobo1156bo$1738b2o620b2o10b2o$1737bo621b2o2$1742bo$
1742b2o$1741bobo$3436b2o$3437bo$1756b2o1679bobo$1756bobo1679b2o$1726bo
29bo$1726b2o$1725bobo1714b2o$2323b3o51bo1063bo2bo$2325bo51b2o1063bobo$
1715b3o606bo51bobo1064bo$1717bo647b2o$1716bo647bobo$1723b2o641bo$1724b
2o1709bo2b2o$1723bo609bo1100bo3b2o2b2o$2333b2o1099bo7b2o$2332bobo1100b
4o$2362b3o106b2o$2364bo106b2o$2363bo29bobo90bo$2393b2o89b3o$2394bo75b
3o10bo$2470b2o11b2o$2473b2o$2472b3o4bo$2471bobo4bobo$2388b3o80b2o4bo2b
o1056b2o$2388bo89b2o1057b2o$2381bobo5bo1162bo$2382b2o1166b3o$2382bo
1153b3o10bo$3536b2o11b2o$3539b2o$1747b2o1789b3o4bo$1747b2o1788bobo4bob
o$1762bo1774b2o4bo2bo$1760b3o1781b2o$1746b3o10bo618b3o$1746b2o11b2o
576bo42bo$1749b2o628bo9bo$1748b3o4bo632bobo$1747bobo4bobo630bo2bo1056b
4o$1747b2o4bo2bo631b2o1056bo7b2o$1754b2o615b2o1073bo3b2o2b2o$2372b2o
1073bo2b2o$2371bo12b2o$1656bo726bobo$1657b2o724bo$1656b2o724b2o1071bo$
1669bo1784bobo$1667bobo1783bo2bo$1668b2o1784b2o3$3450b2o$250bo3198bobo
$249bo3199bo$249b3o1413bobo1780b2o$1655bobo3b3o2b2o759b2o$1656b2o5bo2b
o760b2o$1656bo5bo3$243bobo699bo$243b2o698bobo720b2o$244bo699b2o719bobo
$223bo1443bo726bo$221bobo16bo2152bobo1097b2o$222b2o17bo2150bo3bo1096b
2o$232bo6b3o2151bo3bo8bo$233bo2160bo3bo5b3o6b2o$224bo6b3o2161bo3bo3bo
8bobo$225bo2170bobo4b2o7bo$223b3o2171bo13b2o$2401bo$1041b2o1357bobo
1057bo$1041b2o1358b2o2b2o1052bobo$1056bo1336bo11b2o1051bo3bo$1054b3o
1334b3o1065bo3bo8bo$1040b3o10bo1336bo41b2o1026bo3bo5b3o6b2o$1040b2o11b
2o1335b2o40bo1028bo3bo3bo8bobo$1043b2o1335b2o51b3o1026bobo4b2o7bo$237b
2o803b3o4bo620bo710bo53bo1027bo13b2o$238b2o801bobo4bobo618bobo709bobo
1083bo$237bo803b2o4bo2bo617bo3bo709b2o4b2o1076bobo$1048b2o619bo3bo8bo
704bo2bo1076b2o2b2o$1670bo3bo5b3o6b2o697b2o1069bo11b2o$1671bo3bo3bo8bo
bo709b2o1055b3o$227b3o1442bobo4b2o7bo711b2o1054bo41b2o$229bo1443bo13b
2o1767b2o40bo$213b2o13bo1448bo1768b2o51b3o$212bobo1461bobo1768bo53bo$
214bo676bobo783b2o2b2o1764bobo$892b2o775bo11b2o882bo882b2o4b2o$892bo
774b3o761b2o132b2o886bo2bo$895bo770bo41b2o721b2o131b2obo886b2o$896b2o
768b2o40bo677b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o897b2o$895b2o759b2o51b3o675bo3bo33b
2o135bobobo899b2o$1657bo53bo672b3o5b3o166bobobo$1657bobo724bo9bo164b3o
2bo$1658b2o4b2o761b2o131bob2o$1663bo2bo753b2o5b2o132b2o$911bobo750b2o
754b2o136bo3bo1068bo$912b2o15bo17bo728b2o879bobo937b2o132b2o$912bo17bo
14bobo728b2o879b2o938b2o131b2obo$928b3o15b2o42bobo1568b2o889b2o3b2o32b
2o136bo2b3o$990b2o1569bobo889bo3bo33b2o135bobobo$933bo57bo12bo1551b2o
5bo886b3o5b3o166bobobo$931bobo68b2o1552b2o5b2o885bo9bo164b3o2bo$932b2o
30bo38b2o836bo1651b2o131bob2o$965bo741b2o132b2o1643b2o5b2o132b2o$963b
3o741b2o131b2obo1642b2o136bo3bo$957bobo702b2o3b2o32b2o136bo2b3o1778bob
o$958b2o19bo683bo3bo33b2o135bobobo1780b2o$922bo35bo21bo679b3o5b3o166bo
bobo1785b2o$923bo54b3o679bo9bo164b3o2bo1786bobo$921b3o779b2o131bob2o
1782b2o5bo$1696b2o5b2o132b2o1783b2o5b2o$992bo703b2o136bo3bo$990b2o841b
obo$991b2o840b2o$1837b2o$1837bobo$967bo62bo801b2o5bo$867bobo95bobo56bo
bo2bo802b2o5b2o$868b2o96b2o56b2o3b3o$868bo156bo1412b2o$2438b2o$306bobo
576bo83bobo1404b2o46bo13b2o$307b2o574bobo84b2o1397b2o4bo2bo45b3o12bo$
307bo576b2o84bo1398b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$2369b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo$302bo2067b
o$303b2o589bo1474bobo9b2o48bo$302b2o591bo1472b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$893b3o
1486b3o45bo2bo4b2o1064b2o$968bo46bo1368bo46b2o1071b2o$343bo625b2o44bob
o1351b2o1071b2o46bo13b2o$343bobo622b2o45b2o1352b2o1064b2o4bo2bo45b3o
12bo$343b2o3090b2o5bobo48bo10bobo$3435b2o6bo48b2o9b2obo$3436bo$307bo
657bo748b2o1719bobo9b2o48bo$308bo657b2o746b2o1718b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$
306b3o656b2o685b2o46bo13b2o1732b3o45bo2bo4b2o$1645b2o4bo2bo45b3o12bo
1734bo46b2o$312bo642b3o687b2o5bobo48bo10bobo1718b2o$313bo643bo687b2o6b
o48b2o9b2obo1718b2o$311b3o642bo689bo$334bobo635bo672bobo9b2o48bo$334b
2o601bo35bo670b2obo9bo48bobo5b2o$303bo31bo601b2o12b3o17b3o161bo522b3o
45bo2bo4b2o$301bobo632bobo14bo181b2o523bo46b2o$302b2o648bo92bobo86b2ob
o507b2o$1029bo15b2o86bo2b3o506b2o$941b2o17b2o65b2o17bo85bobobo$942b2o
15bobo66b2o6bo94bobobo$941bo19bo73bo93b3o2bo$1035b3o6bo85bob2o$981bo
61bo87b2o$981b2o60b3o82bo3bo$980bobo144bobo$1127b2o$1131b2o$1131bobo$
1126b2o5bo$1126b2o5b2o2$1050b2o$1050bobo$342bo583b2o122bo$328b2o11b2o
584b2o$327b2o12bobo582bo$329bo11$929b2o$928bobo$930bo5$900b2o$899bobo
14b2o6bo1576b2o$901bo13bobo6b2o1575bo$917bo5bobo1573bobo$2499b2o12bo$
2511b2o$2512b2o$2495b2o$901b2o1591bo2bo$902b2o1590bobo$901bo1593bo9bo
1061b2o$1016b2o1486bo1062bo$1015b2o1487b3o1058bobo$1017bo2547b2o2$
1769bo$1769bobo1789b2o$1769b2o1789bo2bo$3560bobo$2502bo1058bo$2501b2o$
1774bo5bo720bobo$1770bo2bo5b2o$1769b2o2b3o3bobo1783b2o2bo$1769bobo
1789b2o2b2o3bo$1011b3o2547b2o7bo$1011bo2554b4o$1012bo$1015b2o1473bo$
1015bobo1472b2o$1015bo14b2o735b2o720bobo$1030bobo734bobo$1030bo736bo$
1779b2o$1778b2o$1780bo$1039b3o$1039bo$1040bo14bo$1054b2o$1054bobo12$
880b2o$879bobo$881bo6b2o$887bobo$889bo6bo$896b2o$895bobo$877bo$877b2o
841bo$876bobo839b2o744bo$1719b2o741bobo$1000b3o724bo735b2o7bo$1000bo
725bo743b2o$1001bo724b3o742b2o2$2418bo$1716bobo699b3o$1716b2o703bo$
1007b2o660bo47bo702b2o$1006b2o659bobo765b2o$1008bo659b2o765bo$2433bobo
$2422bo10b2o$2421bobo1109b2o$2421bobo1060bo48bobo$2416b2o4bo1061b3o48b
o$2415bobo1069bo47b2o$2404b3o8bo1070b2o$2403bo10b2o15b3o1067b2o$2403bo
3bo25bo1067bo$1702bo700bo2bobo23bo1066bobo$1701bo703bobo2bo25b2o1050bo
10b2o$1701b3o702bo3bo21bo2b2o1050bobo$2410bo21b2o3bo1049bobo$2407b3o
21bobo1048b2o4bo$1667bo744bo1068bobo15b2o$1668b2o741bobo9b3o1044b3o8bo
17bobo$1667b2o41bo701b2o11bo11b2o1030bo10b2o19bo$1709bo698b2o14bo12bob
o1029bo3bo27b2o$1709b3o695bobo16b3o8bo1031bo2bobo$2407bo5b2o11bo1044bo
bo2bo$1716bo689b2o5b2o12bo1044bo3bo$1706bo8b2o1759bo$1705b2o8bobo1755b
3o$1705bobo1770bo11b2o$3477bobo10b2o$3478b2o$1691bo4b2o1776b2o$1691bob
ob2o1776bobo$1691b2o4bo558bo1216bo5b2o$2255b3o174bobo1037b2o5b2o$1673b
2o11bo567b3obo173b2o$1672bobo11bobo566bo3bo163bobo7bo$1674bo7bo3b2o
568bo3bo162b2o$1683b2o572bob3o78bo69bo13bo1077b2o$1682b2o12bo561b3o78b
o68bobo26bobo1062bo$1689bo5bo563bo79b3o67b2o26b2o1061bobo$1689b2o4b3o
23b2o540bo174bo1061b2o$1688bobo30bobo538bobo1057bo$1721bo541b2o183b2o
871b3o$2259b2o167b2o18bobo869b3obo$2258bobo167bobo17bo872bo3bo$1669b2o
587bo5b2o162bo893bo3bo$1668bobo586b2o5b2o48bo1008bob3o$1670bo644bo125b
o882b3o$1532bo190b3o587b3o124b2o883bo$1531b3o189bo716bobo886bo$1530b3o
bo189bo1603bobo$1531bo3bo1793b2o$1532bo3bo1788b2o155b2o15b2o$1533bob3o
779bo1006bobo154bobo15b2o$1534b3o778bobo113bo892bo5b2o149bo$1535bo780b
2o114b2o889b2o5b2o148b2o$1539bo787bobo101b2o$1538bobo787b2o$1539b2o
787bo$1535b2o$1534bobo$1534bo5b2o$1533b2o5b2o874bobo1068b2o$2417b2o
1069bo$2412b2o3bo1070bobo$2411bobo1075b2o$37bobo2373bo21bo951b2o$37b2o
2395b2o950b3o$38bo2395bobo948bobo2bo2b2o$2426bo958b2o2b2o2b2o$43bo
2266b2o115b2o960b2o$41b2o2268b2o10b2o95bo5b2o$42b2o2266bo11bobo95b2o
1085b2o$2322bo96bobo1084bo2bo$2321b2o1071bo111bo2bo$2bo2410b2o978bobo
111b2o$obo2300b2o107bobo977bo2bo$b2o2299bobo21bo87bo9bo968b2o95b2o$
2304bo21b2o95b2o24b3o1038b2o$2325bobo95bobo23bo127b3o902b2o$38bo2411bo
129bo808b2o92bo$37bo2538bo3bo807bobo92bobo20b2o$37b3o2391b2o142bobo2bo
807bo95b2o20b2o$2430bobo140bo2bobo808b2o$33bo2398bo140bo3bo$32bo2540bo
$32b3o2539b3o926bo$9bobo1587b2o970bo929b3o$10b2o1586bobo823b2o144bobo
927bo142b3o$10bo31bo1555bo824bobo144b2o928b2o144bo$42bobo781bo770b2o
826bo148b2o1066bo3bo$42b2o781b3o1585b3o158bobo1064bobo2bo$824b3obo
1586bo153b2o5bo1062bo2bobo$825bo3bo1584bo154b2o5b2o1061bo3bo$826bo3bo
1585b3o1220bo$827bob3o1021b3o560bo1223b3o$828b3o1025bo560bo1219bo$829b
o1022bo3bo1779bobo$833bo1017bobo2bo1779b2o$832bobo1014bo2bobo1625b2o
158b2o$833b2o1014bo3bo1626b2o158bobo$829b2o1018bo578b3o1204b2o5bo$828b
obo1019b3o577bo1204b2o5b2o$828bo5b2o1011bo581bo$827b2o5b2o1010bobo582b
3o$1846b2o583bo$1850b2o580bo$1850bobo$3bo1841b2o5bo$3b2o11b2o1827b2o5b
2o1641b2o$2bobo12b2o3476b2o$16bo$1163bo$1162bo$1162b3o4$91bo$91bobo$
79bo11b2o1072bo$80b2o1082bo$79b2o1083b3o7$893b2o$892bobo$892bo$891b2o
2$1129bobo$1130b2o$1130bo2$1134bobo$1135b2o$1135bo17bo$1132bo20bobo$
1125bo7bo19b2o$1126b2o3b3o$1125b2o2$1145bobo$1145b2o$1146bo5$1160b2o$
1159b2o$1161bo4$1163b2o$1163bobo$1163bo1293bo$2458bo$1172b3o1281b3o$
1172bo$1173bo$1169b2o$1169bobo$1169bo2$2456bo5bobo$2454bobo5b2o$2455b
2o6bo5$2488b2o$2488b2o3$2494b2o1034b2o$2449bo4b2o38b2o1027b2o5b2o$
2449b2o2bobo8b2o24b2o1031b2o$2448bobo4bo7b2o25b2o$2465bo$3525b2o27b2o$
3525b2o27b2o$2495b2o1022b2o$2495b2o1022b2o$3560b2o$3560b2o$3556b2o$
1764b2o1790b2o$1764b2o3$1770b2o1789b2o$1770b2o1789b2o$1766b2o$1766b2o
701bo$2467bobo$2468b2o$2448b2o$1771b2o675b2o$1771b2o2$2479bo$2453b2o
25b2o7bo4bobo$2453b2o24b2o8bobo2b2o$2449b2o14b3o21b2o4bo$2449b2o16bo$
2466bo1047b2o$3514b2o22b2o$2455b2o1081b2o$2455b2o2$3519b2o$3519b2o$
1724b2o1789b2o$1724b2o755bo6b2o1025b2o$2481b2o5bobo1065b2o$2480bobo5bo
1067b2o$3521b2o27b2o$1729b2o1790b2o27b2o$1729b2o$247bo1477b2o1764bo36b
2o$248bo1476b2o1762bobo35bobo22b2o$246b3o3241b2o37bo15b2o5b2o$2486b3o
1056b2o$1731b2o753bo$1731b2o722bo31bo$246bobo2207bo$247b2o9bobo2193b3o
$247bo10b2o8bo$259bo6b2o790b2o1397bo1065b2o$267b2o789b2o1397b2o1063bob
o$2456bobo1065bo$3508b2o$1064b2o2443b2o$258b3o803b2o2442bo21b2o$246b2o
10bo801b2o2467b2o$245bobo11bo800b2o2469bo$247bo3275b2o$3523bo$3524b3o$
1065b2o2459bo$1065b2o3$3505b3o$3507bo$3499b2o5bo$3498bobo$3500bo$3523b
o$3522b2o$221bo3300bobo$209bo11bobo$210bo10b2o$208b3o$1018b2o$1018b2o$
3528b3o173b2o$200b2o3326bo175bobo$201b2o6bo3319bo174bo$200bo8b2o10bo
801b2o$208bobo9b2o801b2o$220bobo796b2o$1019b2o1733bo$2754b2o$2753b2obo
$220b3o802b2o1725bo2b3o$220bo804b2o1724bobobo$221bo2528bobobo$2748b3o
2bo$2749bob2o$2750b2o$2747bo3bo1068bo$2746bobo1071b2o$2746b2o1071b2obo
$2750b2o1066bo2b3o$2750bobo1064bobobo$2745b2o5bo1063bobobo$2745b2o5b2o
1060b3o2bo$2030bo1784bob2o$2030b2o1784b2o$2029b2obo1780bo3bo$2028bo2b
3o1778bobo$2027bobobo1780b2o$2026bobobo1785b2o$2024b3o2bo1786bobo$
2025bob2o1782b2o5bo$2026b2o1783b2o5b2o$2023bo3bo$2022bobo$2022b2o$
2026b2o$2026bobo$2021b2o5bo$2021b2o5b2o21$1318bo$1319bo$1317b3o3$1314b
o$1312bobo$506bo806b2o$504bobo$505b2o$1326bobo$511bo814b2o$509bobo815b
o$510b2o3bo$513b2o$501bo12b2o801bo$502bo5bo807bobo5b3o$500b3o4b2o807b
2o6bo$507bobo810b2o3bo$1320bobo$1315b2o5bo$1315b2o5b2o$2947b3o$2949bo$
2948bo11$3782b2o$3782bobo$3782bo11$2651b2o$2651b2o2b2o$2655bobo$2656bo
$2659b3o$2653b2o3bo$2654bo3bo3bo$2651b3o4bo2bobo$2651bo8bobo2bo$2661bo
3bo1051b2o$2665bo1051b2o2b2o$2662b3o1056bobo$3722bo$3725b3o$3719b2o3bo
$3720bo3bo3bo$1927b2o1788b3o4bo2bobo$1927b2o2b2o1784bo8bobo2bo$1931bob
o1793bo3bo$1932bo1798bo$1935b3o1790b3o$1929b2o3bo$1930bo3bo3bo$1927b3o
4bo2bobo$1927bo8bobo2bo$1937bo3bo$1941bo$1938b3o10$423bo$422bo18bobo
2439b3o$422b3o16b2o2442bo$442bo2441bo2$431bo15bo$431bobo11b2o2411b2o$
431b2o13b2o2411b2o$2858bo$2871b3o$427bo2445bo$427bobo2442bo$427b2o3$
2876b2o$2875bobo$2877bo$2850b2o$2849bobo$2851bo$1221b2o$1221b2o2b2o$
1225bobo$1226bo1616bo$1229b3o1611b2o$403bo819b2o3bo1613bobo$403b2o819b
o3bo3bo$402bobo816b3o4bo2bobo$1221bo8bobo2bo$1231bo3bo$1235bo$1232b3o$
425b2o$424b2o2383b2o$426bo2381bobo$2810bo4$403b2o$404b2o$403bo32b3o$
436bo$437bo271$4497b2o$4496b2o$4498bo!
It costs 309 gliders. So if there are no errors, every synthesizable pattern can be synthesised in less than or equal to 309 + 4 + 11 = 324 gliders! So Gustavo was right!

The synthesis is "unassembled" because many of the reflectors are out of phase with each other (which should be easy to fix). Also, as I probably made some errors, the synthesis should probably compiled into one step, which will also make viewing it better. Everyone else should feel free to do this, but otherwise I'll probably do it.

Two (and a half questions):
1. If it isn't possible to run the constructor for anywhere near long enough to create a proper synthesis, is it possible to run it long enough to produce a loafer (or something similarly sized) as well as lot's of other stuff™.
2. Is there any reason why the constructor can't construct itself? (I ask this because I recall simsim314 stating in the previous thread that an issue he had with the previous design was that it can't construct itself.) If it can construct itself, doesn't that mean that a ridicously large and slow spaceship with a small population can be created for any given direction?

Post Reply