74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

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dvgrn
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74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by dvgrn » August 26th, 2019, 12:27 pm

Has anyone looked into finding slow-salvo recipes for a standard syringe catalyst? I seem to remember the topic came up a while back, but I'm not sure how much progress was made.

If slmake had recipes for all orientations of that catalyst, then single-channel elbow operations could allow gliders as close together as 78 ticks, or 74 or 75 as special cases. That might expand the search tree enough to cut the length of a Snarkmaker recipe (for example) by something like a factor of two.

Maybe the extra cost of the standard syringe catalyst would make up for any cost improvements in other recipes, but it depends on the design. A self-constructing circuit that uses a lot of Snarks but not a lot of syringes might make up the difference pretty quickly.

A minimal 74/75/78+ universal constructor would be something like this:

Code: Select all

x = 62, y = 74, rule = LifeHistory
2A$2A16$15.B$15.2B$15.3B$15.4B$16.4B$17.4B16.2A$18.4B14.B2AB$19.4B14.
2B6.B$20.4B14.2B4.3B$21.4B12.14B$22.4B11.14B$23.4B.B5.17B$24.28B$24.
30B$23.32B$24.32B$24.33B$23.2A26B3.4B$22.ABAB4.B.16B7.4B$22.A11.10B.
2B9.4B$21.2A12.9B13.4B$32.11B15.4B$31.12B16.3B$22.2A7.12B17.2B$21.A2.
A2.2A2.11B19.B$22.2A2.A.A2.B3D4B.4B$24.2A.B3.2BD4B4.2A$24.A2.2B2.2B3D
2B4.A$21.2A.A.BA2B.6B6.3A$21.A.2A.A.A8B8.A$25.A.A.8B$22.2A2.A.8B$20.
3A.2A2.8B$19.A4.B6.6B$20.3AB2AB3.7B$22.A.2AB.8B$26.10B$26.6B2A3B$26.
6B2A2B5.2A$26.10B5.A$25.11B2.BA.A$25.7B3D2B.B2A$24.8BD6B$23.10BD5B$
20.2B.16B$19.2A18B$19.2AB.17B$20.B.4B.8B2.4B$27.7B4.4B$28.6B5.4B$30.
4B6.4B$32.3BA5.4B$33.BA.A5.4B$34.A.A6.3B$35.A8.B$36.3A$38.A!
It clearly wouldn't be an impossible task to come up with slow-salvo recipes for all orientations of

Code: Select all

x = 245, y = 219, rule = B3/S23
119bobo$122bo$122bo$119bo2bo$120b3o43$26bobo25bo$27b2o23bobo151bobo$
27bo25b2o151b2o$207bo5$57bo5bo$55bobo3bobo$56b2o4b2o3$194bo$44bobo145b
2o$45b2o16bo129b2o$45bo15bobo110bo$62b2o110bobo$174b2o2$78bo$79b2o$78b
2o$172bo$171bo$82bobo86b3o$83b2o$83bo$166bobo$166b2o$167bo3$166bo$164b
2o$165b2o$90bo$88bobo$89b2o$153bobo6bo7bo$153b2o5b2o8bobo$154bo6b2o7b
2o$81bobo$82b2o54bobo9bo$82bo4bo50b2o9bo$88bo50bo3bo5b3o$86b3o53bo$
142b3o2$157bobo$157b2o$158bo$137bo$137bobo$137b2o13$112bo120b2o$113bo
118b2ob2o$111b3o8bo110b4o$b4o118b2o109b2o5bo2bo$o3bo117b2o116bo$4bo
235bo3bo$o2bo236b4o2$117bo$118b2o$117b2o$122b3o$108b3o13bo$110bo12bo$
109bo19bo$128b2o$119b2o7bobo$119bobo$111b2o6bo$112b2o$111bo10$86b2o$
87b2o$86bo2$152b3o$152bo$153bo4$79b2o8b2o50b2o$80b2o8b2o48b2o13bo$79bo
9bo52bo11b2o$93b2o59bobo$92bobo$94bo71bo$140b3o22b2o$140bo24bobo$141bo
4$175b2o$174b2o$176bo4$84b2o$65bo17bobo$65b2o18bo$64bobo$182b3o$160b2o
20bo$159b2o22bo$161bo21$190b2o$48b3o138b2o$50bo140bo$49bo2$51b2o$52b2o
$51bo$186b2o$186bobo$186bo$193bo$48b2o142b2o$49b2o141bobo$48bo149b2o$
197b2o$199bo4b2o$204bobo$204bo!
At worst, each stage of the construction consists of just a few gliders, so we could build and trigger a seed for each glider stage. But it seems as if the sparks for some of those converters might be made more cheaply (in a slow-salvo context) by building some constellation of small still lifes and hitting it with a glider.

It might be a little awkward to build the other still lifes behind the big syringe catalyst, in some orientations, but those are clearly all solvable problems. But first, are there any other variants of the syringe catalyst that are particularly well suited to slow-salvo construction techniques?

EDIT: An alternative to a unidirectional slow-salvo recipe would be a recipe using slow synchronized glider pairs intersecting at 90 degrees. This was how the original Gemini's construction toolkit worked, and it was way more efficient than anything we've seen since. A synched glider-pair recipe for standard syringe catalysts might be all that's needed to encourage someone to build an awesome new modern-technology Gemini.

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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by dvgrn » August 28th, 2019, 11:07 am

Looking at the incremental synthesis of the syringe catalyst on Catagolue --

Code: Select all

x = 856, y = 147, rule = LifeHistory
460.D237.D$459.3D235.3D$458.3D235.3D$457.3D235.3D$456.3D235.3D$448.2D
5.3D228.2D5.3D$448.3D3.3D229.3D3.3D$449.3D.3D231.3D.3D$450.5D233.5D$
451.3D235.3D$452.D237.D4$2.6D2.10D.8D2.7D50.4D105.6D75.7D47.4D30.8D
34.6D34.10D35.6D49.6D55.4D5.6D60.4D6.4D41.4D5.6D35.4D4.7D35.4D7.4D$.
3D3.2D4.4D4.3D7.3D2.3D47.6D104.3D.4D78.4D46.4D30.3D38.3D44.3D35.3D2.
3D47.3D2.3D52.6D4.3D2.3D57.6D4.6D39.6D4.3D.4D32.6D8.4D32.6D7.4D$4D9.
4D4.3D7.3D3.3D46.2D.3D109.3D79.3D45.5D30.3D37.3D45.3D35.3D2.4D45.3D3.
3D52.2D.3D4.3D2.4D56.2D.3D4.2D.3D39.2D.3D9.3D32.2D.3D9.3D32.2D.3D6.5D
$4D9.4D4.3D7.3D3.3D49.3D109.3D79.3D44.6D30.3D37.3D44.3D36.3D2.3D46.3D
3.4D54.3D3.3D3.4D59.3D7.3D42.3D9.3D35.3D9.3D35.3D5.6D$.4D8.4D4.3D7.3D
2.4D49.3D109.3D78.3D45.6D30.7D32.8D40.3D36.8D46.3D4.3D54.3D3.3D2.5D
59.3D7.3D42.3D9.3D35.3D8.3D36.3D5.6D$2.6D5.4D4.8D2.3D2.3D50.3D108.3D
76.6D44.3D.3D34.4D31.4D2.3D38.3D39.4D49.3D2.4D54.3D3.3D.6D59.3D7.3D
42.3D8.3D36.3D5.6D36.3D4.3D.3D$5.4D4.4D4.3D7.7D51.3D107.4D80.3D43.3D.
3D35.3D31.3D4.3D37.3D37.8D48.8D54.3D3.5D2.3D59.3D7.3D42.3D7.4D36.3D9.
3D35.3D4.3D.3D$6.4D3.4D4.3D7.3D55.3D106.4D81.3D42.3D2.3D35.3D31.3D4.
3D36.3D37.4D2.4D51.3D55.3D3.4D3.3D59.3D7.3D42.3D6.4D37.3D9.3D35.3D3.
3D2.3D$6.4D3.4D4.3D7.3D55.3D105.4D82.3D42.10D33.3D32.3D3.3D36.3D37.4D
3.3D51.3D55.3D4.3D2.3D60.3D7.3D42.3D5.4D38.3D9.3D35.3D3.10D$3D3.3D4.
4D4.3D7.3D55.3D104.4D83.3D47.3D34.4D32.3D2.3D36.3D39.3D2.3D51.3D56.3D
4.3D2.3D60.3D7.3D42.3D4.4D39.3D9.3D35.3D8.3D$.7D5.4D4.8D2.3D52.9D101.
9D73.6D49.3D30.6D35.6D37.3D40.6D48.5D55.9D2.6D58.9D.9D36.9D.9D31.9D.
6D34.9D5.3D15$615.A$614.A$614.3A2$618.3A$611.A.A4.A$612.2A5.A$612.A7$
624.A.A$152.A471.2A$150.A.A472.A$151.2A$611.A$241.A.A365.A.A$241.2A
367.2A$242.A4$590.A$591.2A$590.2A$629.A$628.2A$628.A.A4$634.A.A$634.
2A$635.A2$631.A$632.A$630.3A2$406.A246.A$293.A113.2A87.A52.A102.A$
277.A14.A78.A34.2A86.2A54.A101.3A$278.2A12.3A76.A.A121.2A51.3A$66.A
210.2A92.2A427.A$67.A221.A78.A42.A.A92.A47.A.A243.A.A$65.3A219.2A77.A
.A42.2A42.A.A48.A.A45.2A244.2A43.A$288.2A77.2A36.2A5.A35.2A5.2A37.2A
5.A4.2A47.A236.A52.A.A$69.2A4.2A328.2A41.A3.A3.A31.2A4.A3.A.A.A109.A
177.A.A45.A6.2A$70.2A3.A.A336.3A32.4A36.2A4.4A.2A7.2A38.2A6.3A51.A.A
78.A55.A42.2A12.A33.2A12.A$69.A5.A37.A300.A73.A20.A.A36.A.A6.A52.A.A
78.A.A53.A.A54.A.A31.2A12.A.A$112.A84.2A2.2A73.2A2.2A45.2A40.2A35.2A
7.A33.2A44.2A12.A34.2A2.A9.A47.2A2.A76.2A2.A.A49.2A2.A.A36.A13.2A2.A.
A37.A3.2A2.A.A$112.3A82.A2.A.A73.A2.A.A5.A39.A2.2A37.A2.2A32.A2.2A38.
A2.2A41.A2.2A44.A2.2A57.A2.2A76.A2.2A.2A48.A2.2A.2A36.A12.A2.2A.2A35.
A.A2.A2.2A.2A$69.2A127.A.A76.A.A5.2A41.A.A39.A.A34.A.A40.A.A43.A.A46.
A.A59.A.A78.A.A9.A43.A.A38.3A13.A.A40.2A3.A.A$63.A.A3.A.A125.2A.A73.
4A.A6.2A37.4A2.A35.4A2.A30.4A2.A36.4A2.A39.4A2.A42.4A2.A55.4A2.A74.4A
2.A.2A4.A.A39.4A2.A.2A30.2A15.4A2.A.2A33.A4.4A2.A.2A$64.2A3.A126.A2.A
74.A3.A46.A3.A.A35.A3.A.A30.A3.A.A36.A3.A.A39.A3.A.A42.A3.A.A55.A3.A.
A74.A3.A.A.2A4.A2.A38.A3.A.A.2A31.2A14.A3.A.A.2A34.A3.A3.A.A.2A$64.A
50.A81.2A78.A11.A38.A.A39.A.A34.A.A40.A.A43.A.A46.A.A59.A.A78.A.A9.2A
42.A.A34.A19.A.A36.3A6.A.A$109.3A2.2A161.2A9.A39.2A41.A36.A42.A45.A
48.A61.A80.A14.2A32.A6.A54.A.A45.A.A$111.A2.A.A171.3A413.A.A32.A50.2A
9.A47.A$62.2A13.2A31.A593.A32.3A51.2A$61.A.A12.2A255.3A454.A53.A$63.A
14.A254.A407.2A99.A.A$68.2A217.2A40.2A3.A314.A90.A.A56.3A41.2A$69.2A
215.2A40.A.A317.2A92.A56.A$68.A219.A41.A317.A.A149.A45.2A$846.A.A$
846.A9$636.A6.A$635.2A5.2A$635.A.A4.A.A4$643.A$642.2A$642.A.A13$618.A
$617.2A$609.A7.A.A$607.A.A$151.2A455.2A$150.A.A459.3A$152.A461.A$161.
2A450.A$160.A.A$162.A!
-- Step 10, the step that builds the eater2, stands out as being by far the least slow-salvo-compatible:

Code: Select all

x = 117, y = 106, rule = B3/S23
25bo$24bo$24b3o2$28b3o$21bobo4bo$22b2o5bo$22bo7$34bobo$34b2o$35bo2$21b
o$19bobo$20b2o5$o$b2o$2o$39bo$38b2o$38bobo4$44bobo$44b2o$45bo2$41bo$
42bo$40b3o2$63bo$62bo$62b3o6$22bo$21bobo78bo$20bobo78bobo$16b2o2bo76b
2o2bobo$16bo2b2o76bo2b2ob2o$17bobo78bobo9bo$14b4o2bo74b4o2bob2o4bobo$
14bo3bobo74bo3bobob2o4bo2bo$17bobo78bobo9b2o$18bo80bo14b2o$114bobo$
114bo3$59bo$58b2o$58bobo11$46bo6bo$45b2o5b2o$45bobo4bobo4$53bo$52b2o$
52bobo13$28bo$27b2o$19bo7bobo$17bobo$18b2o$22b3o$24bo$23bo!
The other thirteen steps can be handled relatively easily; steps 7 and 11 are a single glider each, so they're fine as they are. For the others, at worst a series of splitters can be constructed and then triggered to do each conversion just as it's shown above.

But I'm sure in many cases there's an equivalent G+constellation collision that produces an equivalent spark directly, without actually building the gliders (and/or *WSSes) -- much cheaper and less time- and space-consuming. From a slow-salvo efficiency point of view, a triggerable constellation is much better than to having to synchronize multiple gliders.

Even if the constellation collapse reaction leaves a fair amount of junk behind, it barely even matters to the total cost. Shooting down junk is usually one of the cheapest and easiest things a slow salvo can do, though of course we'll have to deal with some cases where junk gets left behind the object being constructed.

Does anyone happen to have workable constellations available for any of these steps?

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testitemqlstudop
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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by testitemqlstudop » August 28th, 2019, 11:47 pm

This is the second best method I came up with, at the cost of a higher repeat time:

Code: Select all

x = 73, y = 136, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o33$45bo$45b3o$48bo$47bobo$47bobo$48bo5$63b2o$63b2o4$43b2o$
42bobo$42bo$41b2o7b2o$50b2o2$58b2obo$58b2ob3o$64bo$58b2ob3o$59bobo$59b
obo$60bo2$61bo$59b3o$58bo$58b2o$50b2o$50b2o6$67b2o$67bo$65bobo$65b2o9$
69b2o$69bobo$71bo$71b2o$61b2o$61b2o$42bob2o$42b2obo2$51b2o$51b2o7$61b
2o$61bo$59bobo$59b2o4$41bo$41b3o$44bo$43b2o6$64b2o$64bo$62bobo$62b2o
11$48b2o$48b2o!
Credit to simsim314: http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic. ... nge#p18105

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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by calcyman » August 29th, 2019, 5:33 am

testitemqlstudop wrote:This is the second best method I came up with, at the cost of a higher repeat time:

Code: Select all

x = 73, y = 136, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o33$45bo$45b3o$48bo$47bobo$47bobo$48bo5$63b2o$63b2o4$43b2o$
42bobo$42bo$41b2o7b2o$50b2o2$58b2obo$58b2ob3o$64bo$58b2ob3o$59bobo$59b
obo$60bo2$61bo$59b3o$58bo$58b2o$50b2o$50b2o6$67b2o$67bo$65bobo$65b2o9$
69b2o$69bobo$71bo$71b2o$61b2o$61b2o$42bob2o$42b2obo2$51b2o$51b2o7$61b
2o$61bo$59bobo$59b2o4$41bo$41b3o$44bo$43b2o6$64b2o$64bo$62bobo$62b2o
11$48b2o$48b2o!
Credit to simsim314: http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic. ... nge#p18105
The 90-tick 'dependent syringe' you mention is the current state-of-the-art for self-constructing circuitry. The purpose of the thread is to discuss the possibility of using the 78-tick 'independent syringe' instead, to see whether the single-channel search space is sufficiently larger (and recipes correspondingly more efficient) to compensate for the awkwardness of building the 78-tick syringe.

My guess is not, and that 90-tick circuitry will be more efficient.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by chris_c » August 29th, 2019, 9:10 am

Why stop at p78? ;)

We can do glider pair -> H -> glider pair at p62. I think the only thing that slmake doesn't know how to construct here is the BTS-like still life.

Code: Select all

x = 393, y = 393, rule = B3/S23
178b2o$178bobo$180bo4b2o$176b4ob2o2bo2bo$176bo2bobobobob2o$179bobobobo
$180b2obobo$184bo2$170b2o$171bo7b2o$171bobo5b2o$172b2o7$182b2o$182bo$
183b3o$185bo5$213b2o$212bobo$212bo$211b2o2$211b4o$211bo2bo$213bo$214b
3o$216bo3$206b2o$206b2o4$197bo$197b3o$200bo$199bobo$200bo$218b2o$218bo
$201b2o13bobo$201b2o13b2o3$259b2o$245b2o12b2o$227b2o17bo$220b2o6bo17bo
bo$220bo6bo19b2o$218bobo6b2o$218b2o3$205b2o58b2o$204bobo58b2o$204bo25b
2o$203b2o25b2o4$265bo$264bobo$223b2o23b2o15bo$223bo20bo3b2o$189bo27bo
6b3o16bobo$189b3o24bobo7bo15bobo$192bo24bo24bo12b2o$191b2o48b2o11bobo$
254bo$253b2o$183b2o$183bo$180b2obo$180bo2b3o4b2o$181b2o3bo3b2o$183b4o$
183bo15b2o$184b3o12bobo$187bo13bo$182b5o14b2o$182bo$184bo$183b2o2$247b
2o$247bobo$249bo4b2o$245b4ob2o2bo2bo$245bo2bobobobob2o$248bobobobo$
249b2obobo$253bo2$239b2o$240bo7b2o$240bobo5b2o$241b2o6$64b2o6bo$64b2o
5bobo177b2o$72bo178bo$252b3o$233bo20bo$231b3o$55b2o173bo$55b2o173b2o2$
98b2o$77b2o20bo$77bo19bo$78b3o16b5o14b2o$80bo21bo13bo$99b3o12bobo103b
2o$98bo15b2o103bobo5b2o$98b4o117bo7b2o$73b2o21b2o3bo3b2o111b2o$58b2o
13b2o20bo2b3o4b2o$59bo35b2obo133bo$56b3o39bo129b2obobo$56bo18bo22b2o
127bobobobo$74bobo147bo2bobobobob2o$75bo148b4ob2o2bo2bo$76b3o27b2o120b
o4b2o$78bo28bo118bobo$104b3o119b2o$104bo3$135b2o$135bo$137bo$117b2o14b
5o$118bo13bo$66b2o50bobo12b3o$66b2o51b2o15bo$133b4o$57b2obo67b2o3bo3b
2o$57bob2o67b2o4b3o2bo$75b2o59bob2o$75bo60bo$73bobo59b2o$73b2o2$58bo
68b2o$58b3o66bo$49bo11bo66b3o$49b3o8b2o14bo53bo$52bo22bobo$35b2o14b2o
23bo$35bo$27b2o3b2obo$27bo4bobo$28b3obo$30bob2o4$39b2o$39b2o23b2o$64bo
$65b3o$67bo$51b2o37bo$47bo3b2o35b3o$46bobo38bo$45bobo39b2o$45bo$44b2o$
383bo$381b3o$380bo$380b2o$77b2o$76bobo5b2o$76bo7b2o302b2o$75b2o312bo$
3b2o384bob2o$4bo84bo291b2o4b3o2bo$2bo82b2obobo217b2o71b2o3bo3b2o$2b5o
14b2o61bobobobo216bobo76b4o$7bo13bo59bo2bobobobob2o207b2o4bo64b2o15bo$
4b3o12bobo59b4ob2o2bo2bo205bo2bo2b2ob4o59bobo12b3o$3bo15b2o64bo4b2o
207b2obobobobo2bo59bo13bo$3b4o76bobo216bobobobo61b2o14b5o$b2o3bo3b2o
71b2o217bobob2o82bo$o2b3o4b2o291bo84bo$2obo384b2o$3bo312b2o$3b2o302b2o
7bo$307b2o5bobo$314b2o$11b2o9b2o$12bo8b2o$9b3o11bo$9bo$347b2o$347bo$
304b2o39bobo$305bo38bobo$302b3o35b2o3bo$302bo37b2o$325bo$71b3o251b3o$
71bo256bo$72bo254b2o23b2o$352b2o$38bo$37b2o$37bobo$359b2obo$360bob3o$
358bobo4bo$357bob2o3b2o$357bo$316bo23b2o14b2o$315bobo22bo$262bo53bo14b
2o8b3o$87b2o173b3o66bo11bo$87bobo175bo66b3o$87bo176b2o68bo2$318b2o$
256b2o59bobo$256bo60bo$253b2obo59b2o$253bo2b3o4b2o67b2obo$254b2o3bo3b
2o67bob2o$256b4o$256bo15b2o51b2o$257b3o12bobo50b2o$260bo13bo$255b5o14b
2o$255bo$257bo$256b2o3$288bo$165b2o119b3o$164bobo118bo28bo$158b2o4bo
120b2o27b3o$156bo2bo2b2ob4o148bo$156b2obobobobo2bo147bobo$159bobobobo
127b2o22bo18bo$159bobob2o129bo39b3o$160bo133bob2o35bo$286b2o4b3o2bo20b
2o13b2o$173b2o111b2o3bo3b2o21b2o$164b2o7bo117b4o$164b2o5bobo103b2o15bo
$171b2o103bobo12b3o$276bo13bo21bo$275b2o14b5o16b3o$295bo19bo$293bo20b
2o$293b2o2$161b2o173b2o$162bo173b2o$159b3o$138bo20bo$138b3o$141bo178bo
$140b2o177bobo5b2o$320bo6b2o6$150b2o$143b2o5bobo$143b2o7bo$152b2o2$
139bo$138bobob2o$138bobobobo$135b2obobobobo2bo$135bo2bo2b2ob4o$137b2o
4bo$143bobo$144b2o2$208b2o$208bo$210bo$190b2o14b5o$191bo13bo$191bobo
12b3o$192b2o15bo$206b4o$201b2o3bo3b2o$201b2o4b3o2bo$209bob2o$209bo$
208b2o$138b2o$138bo$136bobo11b2o48b2o$136b2o12bo24bo24bo$148bobo15bo7b
obo24b3o$147bobo16b3o6bo27bo$143b2o3bo20bo$127bo15b2o23b2o$126bobo$
127bo4$161b2o25b2o$161b2o25bo$126b2o58bobo$126b2o58b2o3$173b2o$164b2o
6bobo$144b2o19bo6bo$144bobo17bo6b2o$146bo17b2o$132b2o12b2o$132b2o3$
175b2o13b2o$174bobo13b2o$174bo$173b2o$192bo$191bobo$192bo$193b3o$195bo
4$185b2o$185b2o3$176bo$176b3o$179bo$178bo2bo$178b4o2$180b2o$180bo$178b
obo$178b2o5$207bo$207b3o$210bo$209b2o7$219b2o$212b2o5bobo$212b2o7bo$
221b2o2$208bo$207bobob2o$207bobobobo$204b2obobobobo2bo$204bo2bo2b2ob4o
$206b2o4bo$212bobo$213b2o!
Glider pairs have their own set of disadvantages though. Whether this makes up for the the multi-stage construction of the Syringe is anybody's guess...

The Orthogonoid exists so there's no reason why someone couldn't try something similar with glider pairs.

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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by dvgrn » August 29th, 2019, 9:53 am

chris_c wrote:Glider pairs have their own set of disadvantages though. Whether this makes up for the the multi-stage construction of the Syringe is anybody's guess...

The Orthogonoid exists so there's no reason why someone couldn't try something similar with glider pairs.
Heh, my guess is even this kind of multi-glider mechanism with lots of Snarks will end up being significantly cheaper than that syringe catalyst.

I'm not sure if pushing the limit down to 62 will be worth it, though. At a 69-tick minimum we could get spare gliders out of Herschels in the normal way. At p62, when an actual UC component is wanted instead of just a 90-degree reflector, another L156 or some other fast conduit with an extra glider output will have to be added somehow. Otherwise you can't actually extract a single-channel output stream to do construction with. That's significantly more circuitry to be constructed, just to cut down the minimum following distance by a measly seven ticks.

Of course the big effort wouldn't be designing the UC circuitry, anyway, it would be re-running the entire single-channel search to get a 62-tick or 69-tick or 74/75/78+-tick library -- with the usual complicated choices about single elbow vs. multiple elbow types, pairs vs. triplets (or higher) of synchronized gliders, and so forth.

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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by Goldtiger997 » July 24th, 2022, 12:47 am

dvgrn wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 12:27 pm
Has anyone looked into finding slow-salvo recipes for a standard syringe catalyst? I seem to remember the topic came up a while back, but I'm not sure how much progress was made.

If slmake had recipes for all orientations of that catalyst, then single-channel elbow operations could allow gliders as close together as 78 ticks, or 74 or 75 as special cases. That might expand the search tree enough to cut the length of a Snarkmaker recipe (for example) by something like a factor of two.
I made a 49 glider synthesis of a variant of the standard syringe catalyst. That is cheaper than the current best known synthesis for the standard syringe catalyst (57 gliders), and it also avoids the very expensive step of making the eater2-like configuration, which would be quite painful to incorporate into a slow-salvo synthesis. I think all the steps (except maybe the third) look like they wouldn't be too challenging to convert into a seed activation:

Code: Select all

x = 568, y = 55, rule = B3/S23
125bo$123b2o$124b2o2$106bo$105bo424bo$105b3o420bobo$529b2o2$99bo$97bob
o$98b2o$132bobo$111bo20b2o$111bobo19bo$111b2o25bo$136b2o$137b2o414bo$
275bo191bo83b3o$275bobo188bo83bo$275b2o180bo8b3o81b2o$326bo128b2o78b2o
$324b2o130b2o78bo$255bo62bobo4b2o209bob2o$256b2o56bo3b2o94bo40bo7bo73b
o2bo$255b2o55bobo4bo92bobo41bo4b2o75b2o$11bo16bo31bo252b2o47bo50b2o39b
3o5b2o89b2o$11bobo14bobo27bobo302bo189b2o$11b2o15b2o29b2o207bo92b3o52b
2o$3bo193bobo67bo148bobo34bo$4b2o56bo135b2o67b3o2b2o98bo43bo37bo$3b2o
57bobo133bo73bobo95b2o80b3o$62b2o208bo88bo9b2o38bo49bo3b2o94bo3b2o$
196b2o12b2o48b2o48bob2o46bobo47bobo47bobo3bo93bobo3bo$110b2o83bobo11bo
bo47bobo47bob2o46bobo19bo27bobo6b3o38bobo3bo90b2obobo3bo$59b2o4b2o42bo
bo85bo11bo4bo44bo4bo44bo4bo44bo4bo14b2o28bo4bo3bo40bo4bo91b2obo4bo$60b
o3b2o44bo99b5o45b5o45b5o45b5o15b2o28b5o4bo40b5obo93b5obo$17bo39b3o6bo
40b3o89bo7b3o45bob3o45bob3o45bob3o15b3o27bob3o5b2o38bob3o5bobo87bob3o
5bobo$16bo39bo3b3o43bo3b3o86b2o5bo3b3o42b2o3b3o42b2o3b3o42b2o3b3o12bo
29b2o3b3o2bobo37b2o3b3o2bobo87b2o3b3o2bobo$16b3o37bob2o2bo43bob2o2bo
85bobo5bob2o2bo45b2o2bo45b2o2bo45b2o2bo13bo31b2o2bo3bo41b2o2bo3bo78b2o
11b2o2bo3bo$21b2o34bobo47bobo97bobo45b3obo45b3obo45b3obo45b3obo11b2o
32b3obo85b2o8b3obo$11b2o7b2o233bo49bo49bo14b2o33bo14b2o33bo99bo$10b2o
10bo347bobo41b2o6bo$2o10bo357bo42bobo$b2o358b2o52bo$o204b3o152bobo$
205bo156bo$198b3o5bo$200bo$199bo$207b2o$134bo72bobo$133b2o11b2o59bo$
133bobo10bobo$146bo!
...though as I post this, it turns out that Kazyan just discovered a new faster G-to-H. Unless it turns out to be possible to replace the expensive beehive-push catalyst, it looks like the syringe will be a bit cheaper to synthesise.

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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by dvgrn » July 25th, 2022, 11:33 am

Goldtiger997 wrote:
July 24th, 2022, 12:47 am
I think all the steps (except maybe the third) look like they wouldn't be too challenging to convert into a seed activation...
I suspect that the third step will be doable, though somewhat painful, maybe needing a splitter and a couple of turners for a synchronous activation of two areas. The active area on the left has a nice 3-object seed:

Code: Select all

x = 24, y = 26, rule = LifeHistory
3.B2.B2.2B$2.10B$2.5BD5B$5BDBD5B$6B2D8B$17B$.7B3D6B$3.14B$3.13B$3.7B
2A5B$2.7B2A2D5B$3.6B2ACD6B$4.B2D2B2A3B2A2B$4.D2BDBA3B3A2B$5.2D.A2BA2B
ABA6.A$8.A4B4A6.A$9.2AB2A3B5.A$5.2E4.A3BA6.A$5.2E5.A2BA5.A$13.A3.2A2.
A$16.A.A2.2A$17.A$14.3A$13.A3.3A$13.A.2A2.A$14.A.A!
Something like the yellow block will be needed to suppress the reaction after it does its work. No doubt there's something that does the cleanup better, but it's already clear that it shouldn't need a third synchronized glider for cleanup.

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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by AlbertArmStain » July 28th, 2022, 1:01 pm

Better starting place:

Code: Select all

x = 22, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
16b2o$16bobo$17bo$12b2o$12b2o3$20bo$b2o16b2o$o2bo16b2o$b2o4$14bo$13bo
bo$13bobo$14bo!
Possibly better:

Code: Select all

x = 24, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
9b2o$9b2o4$2o$obo$b2o2$8bo2$3bo5b2o11b2o$4bo3b2o11bobo$4bo2b2o13bo$6b
o$14b2o$14bobo$15bo3$6b2o$6b2o!
also possibly better

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
14b2o$13bo2bo$13bobo$14bo3b2o$3o15b2o$4b3o2$13bo4b2o$12bobo3b2o$2b2o11b
o$2b2o9bobo$14b2o!
Doubt this is possible:

Code: Select all

x = 15, y = 19, rule = B3/S23
12b2o$11bo2bo$12b2o6$13b2o$12bobo$12b2o2$5bo$4bob2o$7b2o$5b2ob2o$b2o2b
obo$o2bobo$b2o!
Way better starting object:

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 7, rule = B3/S23
3bobo$o2b2obo$3o3bo$3b3o$2bo$bobo$2bo!
The problem is that it's either hard to delete all the surrounding ashes, or it requires two unstable objects to act with each other.
However... I've got something possible:

Code: Select all

x = 56, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
13bo$12bobo$12bobo$13bo$2o$2o6b2o7b2o$7bo2bo5bo2bo$8b2o7b2o34bo$52bob
o$13bo38bo2bo$12bobo38b2o$12bobo$13bo3$31b3o$31bobo$31bobo!
dvgrn wrote:
July 25th, 2022, 11:33 am
Goldtiger997 wrote:
July 24th, 2022, 12:47 am
I think all the steps (except maybe the third) look like they wouldn't be too challenging to convert into a seed activation...
I suspect that the third step will be doable, though somewhat painful, maybe needing a splitter and a couple of turners for a synchronous activation of two areas. The active area on the left has a nice 3-object seed:

Code: Select all

x = 24, y = 26, rule = LifeHistory
3.B2.B2.2B$2.10B$2.5BD5B$5BDBD5B$6B2D8B$17B$.7B3D6B$3.14B$3.13B$3.7B
2A5B$2.7B2A2D5B$3.6B2ACD6B$4.B2D2B2A3B2A2B$4.D2BDBA3B3A2B$5.2D.A2BA2B
ABA6.A$8.A4B4A6.A$9.2AB2A3B5.A$5.2E4.A3BA6.A$5.2E5.A2BA5.A$13.A3.2A2.
A$16.A.A2.2A$17.A$14.3A$13.A3.3A$13.A.2A2.A$14.A.A!
Something like the yellow block will be needed to suppress the reaction after it does its work. No doubt there's something that does the cleanup better, but it's already clear that it shouldn't need a third synchronized glider for cleanup.
Have you tried using Octohash?

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Re: 74/75/78+ Single-Channel Toolkit Challenge

Post by AlbertArmStain » December 19th, 2022, 5:47 pm

If we had a script like this, it would be easier to do it.

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