Simplified Demonoid in CGOL

[simsim314]

Simplified Demonoid is a Geminoid with a single duplicator. This duplicator outputs allowing the twin to be just flipped 180 degrees. Example of this design are coming from other CAs. See here and here.

In CGOL the simplest designs of the relevant duplicator are:

Code: Select all

x = 78, y = 62, rule = LifeHistory
17.4B$18.4B48.2A$19.4B33.2A10.2B2AB$7.2A3.2A6.4B14.2A17.A10.4B$6.B2AB
.B2AB6.4B14.A17.A.AB6.7B$7.2B2.3B3.B4.4B12.A19.2AB.3B.8B$8.3B.3B.4B3.
4B11.2A20.14B$2A5.7B.13B11.B20.14B$.A5.23B9.3B19.13B$.A.AB.19B.8B4.6B
16.14B.2B$2.2AB.29B2.10B11.18B2A$4.44B3.2B2.19B.B2A$4.33BD3B2A15BD15B
2.B$4.33B2D2B2A15BDBD4B.7B$5.33B2D18B3D4B.8B$7.31BD21BD4B2.7B$5.32BD
26B3.7B$5.2A3.25B4.13B.4B11.6B.BA$6.A3.20B4.B4.7B.B5.3B12.7BA.A$3.3A
6.15B7.2A15.4B13.8BA$3.A8.11B12.A15.2A15.6B.B$11.13B11.A.A14.A15.5B$
10.15B11.2A11.3A16.6B$10.16B23.A16.2AB.5B$10.17B38.A.AB3.4B$10.16B39.
A7.4B$12.13B39.2A8.4B$11.4B.2B2A5B50.3B$10.4B2.2B2A3B53.2B$10.2A3.8B$
11.A4.2B3D3B$8.3A5.3BD4B$8.A8.2B3D2B$17.7B$9.A7.6B$8.A.A6.6B$8.A.A6.
5B$6.3A.2A4.6B$5.A4.B6.6B$6.3AB2AB3.7B$8.A.2AB.8B$12.10B$12.6B2A3B$
12.6B2A2B5.2A$12.10B5.A$11.11B2.BA.A$11.12B.B2A$10.15B$9.16B$6.2B.16B
$5.2A18B$5.2AB.17B$6.B.4B.8B2.4B$13.7B4.4B$14.6B5.4B$16.4B6.4B$18.3BA
5.4B$19.BA.A5.4B$20.A.A6.2B2A$21.A8.BA.A$22.3A6.A$24.A!

Or with P30:

Code: Select all

x = 90, y = 66, rule = B3/S23
58b2o$58bo$47b2o7bobo$47bo2bo5b2o$33bobo15bo$31bo3bo2b3o10bo$24b2o5bo
19bo$24b2o4bo4bo7b2o2bo2bo$31bo7bobo2bo2b2o$31bo3bo5b3o$33bobo3$50bo
32b2o$51bo31b2o$49b3o3$45b3o$47bo$46bo37bo$50b2o6bo24b3o$50b2o4bobo24b
3o$57b2o$81b2o3b2o$81b2o3b2o3$65bo18b2o$66bo16bobo$64b3o15b2o2bo$83b2o
$83b2o$30b3o50bo$32bo$31bo51bo5bo$73bo9bo5bo$71bobo3bo6bo3bo$72b2o3bob
o5b3o$77b2o8$85b2o$85b2o7$8b2o$7bobo$9bo6$3o$2bo$bo!

We can code with either two arm slow salvo trick with only gliders, or with single arm shooting *WSSs. If we code with *WSS we will need a new slmake to code slow salvo with *WSSs. This will probably be fastest and simplest Geminoid yet. The advantage over regular demonoid is that we can also self destruct with arm commands, thus we don't need any self destruct additions (not sure for P30 case though).

EDIT Rather than coding with *WSSs we can just build snark and use a regular glider coding. After the construction is finished we remove the snark and use *WSSs just for deleting the previous unit. I think that building a snark worth the extra cost which is caused by otherwise *WSSs coding, as *WSSs cost more than gliders.

[chris_c]

I did some rough measurements. The p30 construction arm in Remini seems to realease a glider approximately every 6000 ticks. For single arm construction it appears to be around 3600 ticks. The construction arm in the 0hd-Demonoid releases a glider about every 800 ticks.

So the construction method in the 0hd-Demonoid seems hard to beat in terms of simplicity / construction speed ratio.

[dvgrn]

I did some rough measurements. The p30 construction arm in Remini seems to realease a glider approximately every 6000 ticks. For single arm construction it appears to be around 3600 ticks. The construction arm in the 0hd-Demonoid releases a glider about every 800 ticks.

So the construction method in the 0hd-Demonoid seems hard to beat in terms of simplicity / construction speed ratio.

Did you check the 10hd Demonoid? I seem to recall that tookit is even faster (but it has twice as much to build, so it ends up in second place overall.)

[simsim314]

I did some rough measurements. The p30 construction arm in Remini seems to realease a glider approximately every 6000 ticks. For single arm construction it appears to be around 3600 ticks. The construction arm in the 0hd-Demonoid releases a glider about every 800 ticks.

Have you taken into account the complexity of self destruct mechanism? This design allows to destruct the previous duplicator with tape without the need of extra SLs. This goes about P30 as well - the construction is simpler (but there you're right it's not 8 times simpler). Anyway the P30 is competing with Remini, the other conduit is attempting to compete with 0hd.

Anyway I like the idea of simplistic design and complex code instead of optimal replication time. There is something aesthetic in the simplest conduit to reproduce itself i.e. minimal amount of SLs.

[dvgrn]

Anyway I like the idea of simplistic design and complex code instead of optimal replication time. There is something aesthetic in the simplest conduit to reproduce itself i.e. minimal amount of SLs.

On the other hand, the "Scorbie's Demonoid" design is pretty darn minimal, in its way -- just ten still lifes plus a Snark.

[simsim314]

"Scorbie's Demonoid" design

It's basically the same design (I've somehow forgot about Scorbie's Demonoid), just with single conduit or with P30. You can say it's just a variation on the same theme, I probably will use *WSS for the destruction but it's a nuance. I guess the competition is with Scorbie then.

Anyway for P30 - having two glider guns that can self construct, is somehow appealing idea to me. If you compare it with Conway's (RIP) initial self construction design, or even with last year Remini. Although Remini is a full grown Geminoid in a sense it can move in any direction not only diagonally, still I think if you were telling someone in 70s-90s that two glider guns can self replicate with just the correct tape they would probably laugh at you and think you're nuts.

[chris_c]

Did you check the 10hd Demonoid? I seem to recall that tookit is even faster (but it has twice as much to build, so it ends up in second place overall.)

It's about 700 ticks per glider. I remember the advantage being greater but maybe I added more elbow varieties to the 0hd toolkit than the 10hd.

Have you taken into account the complexity of self destruct mechanism?

I did investigate a re-make of the 0hd-Demonoid with simeks' GoL-destroy and calcyman's slmake. From memory, the self-destruct could be done with around 10SL which is less than half of the cost of the actual unit. Together with slmake I remember that an updated 0hd-Demonoid could be constructed in almost exactly half as many gliders as in the original.

Anyway I like the idea of simplistic design and complex code instead of optimal replication time.

I agree. A stripped down p30 Demonoid would be very nice to look at.

....

Now that I came back to thinking about this stuff I realised that the idea of two identical co-operating units is perfectly feasible to make an oblique spaceship instead of just diagonal. The deviation from diagonal is quite small though. Let me explain with a pattern:

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x = 590, y = 525, rule = LifeHistory
153.2A$153.2A5.2A$84.A75.2A$82.3A42.A$81.A43.3A$81.2A41.A33.2A$66.2A
56.2A32.2A$67.A96.2A$67.A.2A93.2A$68.A2.A$69.2A$84.2A13.2A$84.2A13.2A
26.2A$127.2A5$68.2A$68.2A17.2A.A6.2A$87.2A.3A3.A.A38.2A$93.A2.A41.A
28.2A$87.2A.3A2.2A25.2A11.3A29.A$88.A.A31.2A11.A29.A.A$76.2A10.A.A74.
2A$76.2A11.A$108.2A$109.A$106.3A$106.A$118.2A$118.A$119.3A$121.A3$
147.2A15.2A$146.A.A15.2A$146.A25.2A$145.2A25.A$170.A.A$170.2A5$152.2A
$153.A$153.A.A$154.2A12$155.2A15.2A$155.2A15.A.A$147.2A25.A$87.2A59.A
25.2A$87.2A5.2A52.A.A$18.A75.2A53.2A$16.3A42.A$15.A43.3A$15.2A41.A33.
2A$2A56.2A32.2A$.A96.2A47.2A$.A.2A93.2A48.A$2.A2.A129.2A11.A.A$3.2A
131.A12.2A$18.2A13.2A101.A.A$18.2A13.2A26.2A74.2A2.2A$61.2A78.2A4$
136.2A4.2A$2.2A132.2A4.2A$2.2A17.2A.A6.2A$21.2A.3A3.A.A38.2A$27.A2.A
41.A28.2A$21.2A.3A2.2A25.2A11.3A29.A94.A$22.A.A31.2A11.A29.A.A94.3A$
10.2A10.A.A74.2A98.A22.A$10.2A11.A113.2A59.2A20.3A$42.2A92.A.A80.A$
43.A92.A82.2A$40.3A92.2A$40.A198.A$52.2A183.3A$52.A183.A$53.3A167.2A
11.2A14.2A$55.A167.2A27.2A3$81.2A15.2A158.2A$80.A.A15.2A158.2A$80.A
25.2A146.2A$79.2A25.A147.2A$104.A.A$104.2A92.2A$198.2A11.2A$211.A47.
2A$212.3A44.2A$214.A$86.2A$87.A98.2A6.2A$87.A.A96.A7.A$88.2A97.3A5.3A
25.2A$189.A7.A26.A$221.3A$221.A2$178.2A$178.2A3.2A$183.2A3$170.2A12.
2A53.2A$171.A6.2A4.A53.A.A$89.2A15.2A60.3A7.2A5.3A50.A$89.2A15.A.A59.
A18.A49.2A$81.2A25.A$82.A25.2A$82.A.A$83.2A3$247.2A$247.2A7.2A$81.2A
173.A$82.A171.A.A$69.2A11.A.A169.2A$70.A12.2A152.2A$70.A.A164.2A$71.
2A2.2A150.2A$75.2A151.A$228.A.A$229.2A2$70.2A4.2A$70.2A4.2A4$130.A$
130.3A$133.A22.A76.2A$71.2A59.2A20.3A75.A.A$70.A.A80.A78.A$70.A82.2A
76.2A$69.2A$173.A$171.3A$170.A$157.2A11.2A14.2A$157.2A27.2A60.2A$248.
2A$240.2A$192.2A47.A$192.2A44.3A$188.2A48.A$188.2A$239.A$132.2A104.A.
A$132.2A11.2A91.A.A$145.A47.2A41.3A.2A$146.3A44.2A40.A$148.A87.3A.2A$
238.A.2A$120.2A6.2A$120.A7.A119.2A$121.3A5.3A25.2A89.2A7.2A$123.A7.A
26.A98.A$155.3A97.A.A$155.A99.2A2$112.2A$112.2A3.2A$117.2A116.2A$235.
2A2$104.2A12.2A53.2A$105.A6.2A4.A53.A.A$102.3A7.2A5.3A50.A$102.A18.A
49.2A78.A$250.A.A$241.2A7.A.A$241.2A8.A$252.3A$254.A2$181.2A$181.2A7.
2A$190.A$188.A.A$188.2A$171.2A$171.2A$161.2A$162.A$162.A.A$163.2A9$
167.2A$166.A.A$166.A$165.2A6$182.2A$182.2A$174.2A$175.A$172.3A$172.A
2$173.A$172.A.A$172.A.A$170.3A.2A$169.A$170.3A.2A$172.A.2A2$182.2A$
182.2A7.2A$191.A$189.A.A$189.2A4$169.2A$169.2A5$185.A$184.A.A$175.2A
7.A.A$175.2A8.A$186.3A$188.A9.2A$198.A.A$198.A3$333.2A$333.A.A146.2A$
333.A148.2A5.2A$413.A75.2A$411.3A42.A$410.A43.3A$410.2A41.A33.2A$395.
2A56.2A32.2A$396.A96.2A$396.A.2A93.2A$397.A2.A$398.2A$413.2A13.2A$
413.2A13.2A26.2A$456.2A5$397.2A$397.2A17.2A.A6.2A$416.2A.3A3.A.A38.2A
$422.A2.A41.A28.2A$416.2A.3A2.2A25.2A11.3A29.A$417.A.A31.2A11.A29.A.A
$405.2A10.A.A74.2A$405.2A11.A$437.2A$438.A$435.3A$435.A$447.2A$447.A$
448.3A$450.A3$476.2A15.2A$475.A.A15.2A$475.A25.2A$474.2A25.A$499.A.A$
499.2A5$481.2A$482.A$482.A.A$483.2A12$484.2A15.2A$484.2A15.A.A$476.2A
25.A$416.2A59.A25.2A$416.2A5.2A52.A.A$347.A75.2A53.2A$345.3A42.A$344.
A43.3A$344.2A41.A33.2A$329.2A56.2A32.2A$330.A96.2A47.2A$330.A.2A93.2A
48.A$331.A2.A129.2A11.A.A$332.2A131.A12.2A$347.2A13.2A101.A.A$347.2A
13.2A26.2A74.2A2.2A$390.2A78.2A4$465.2A4.2A$331.2A132.2A4.2A$331.2A
17.2A.A6.2A$350.2A.3A3.A.A38.2A$356.A2.A41.A28.2A$350.2A.3A2.2A25.2A
11.3A29.A94.A$351.A.A31.2A11.A29.A.A94.3A$339.2A10.A.A74.2A98.A22.A$
339.2A11.A113.2A59.2A20.3A$371.2A92.A.A80.A$372.A92.A82.2A$369.3A92.
2A$369.A198.A$381.2A183.3A$381.A183.A$382.3A167.2A11.2A14.2A$384.A
167.2A27.2A3$410.2A15.2A158.2A$409.A.A15.2A158.2A$409.A25.2A146.2A$
408.2A25.A147.2A$433.A.A$433.2A92.2A$527.2A11.2A$540.A47.2A$541.3A44.
2A$543.A$415.2A$416.A98.2A6.2A$416.A.A96.A7.A$417.2A97.3A5.3A25.2A$
518.A7.A26.A$550.3A$550.A2$507.2A$507.2A3.2A$512.2A3$499.2A12.2A53.2A
$500.A6.2A4.A53.A.A$418.2A15.2A60.3A7.2A5.3A50.A$418.2A15.A.A59.A18.A
49.2A$410.2A25.A$411.A25.2A$411.A.A$412.2A3$576.2A$576.2A7.2A$410.2A
173.A$411.A171.A.A$398.2A11.A.A169.2A$399.A12.2A152.2A$399.A.A164.2A$
400.2A2.2A150.2A$404.2A151.A$557.A.A$558.2A2$399.2A4.2A$399.2A4.2A4$
459.A$459.3A$462.A22.A76.2A$400.2A59.2A20.3A75.A.A$399.A.A80.A78.A$
399.A82.2A76.2A$398.2A$502.A$500.3A$499.A$486.2A11.2A14.2A$486.2A27.
2A60.2A$577.2A$569.2A$521.2A47.A$521.2A44.3A$517.2A48.A$517.2A$568.A$
461.2A104.A.A$461.2A11.2A91.A.A$474.A47.2A41.3A.2A$475.3A44.2A40.A$
477.A87.3A.2A$567.A.2A$449.2A6.2A$449.A7.A119.2A$450.3A5.3A25.2A89.2A
7.2A$452.A7.A26.A98.A$484.3A97.A.A$484.A99.2A2$441.2A$441.2A3.2A$446.
2A116.2A$564.2A2$433.2A12.2A53.2A$434.A6.2A4.A53.A.A$431.3A7.2A5.3A
50.A$431.A18.A49.2A78.A$579.A.A$570.2A7.A.A$570.2A8.A$581.3A$583.A2$
510.2A$510.2A7.2A$519.A$517.A.A$517.2A$500.2A$500.2A$490.2A$491.A$
491.A.A$492.2A9$496.2A$495.A.A$495.A$494.2A6$511.2A$511.2A$503.2A$
504.A$501.3A$501.A2$502.A$501.A.A$501.A.A$499.3A.2A$498.A$499.3A.2A$
501.A.2A2$511.2A$511.2A7.2A$520.A$518.A.A$518.2A4$498.2A$498.2A5$514.
A$513.A.A$504.2A7.A.A$504.2A8.A$515.3A$517.A!

Because we are no longer working diagonally we need Gemini-style units that can accept commands from either direction. But this all seems to work out fine: the construction lanes are 2hd apart and the next unit is constructed 2hd away from the previous one.

At the south side the newer unit is sticking out more than the old one and so simple NW31 edge shooters are not feasible. Fx119 based edge shooters are used instead. This appears to have two benefits. 1. The extra Fx77's I added mean that the period is a now a multiple of 8. 2. There is less construction happening near the construction lane.

This seems no more than 3 times as complicated as the 0hd-Demonoid so I would be confident this would have period less than one million if completed.

EDIT: I forgot that the use of Fx119's increases the recovery time from 153 to 158 but this shouldn't affect my estimate in a big way.

EDIT2: Population of stuff to be constructed at each step is 388 vs 122 in the 0hd-Demonoid, so in fact it is probably slightly more than 3 times more complicated.

[dvgrn]

This seems no more than 3 times as complicated as the 0hd-Demonoid so I would be confident this would have period less than one million if completed.

EDIT: I forgot that the use of Fx119's increases the recovery time from 153 to 158 but this shouldn't affect my estimate in a big way.

Hey, this "2hd oblique Demonoid" might be worth assembling! Will need a new library of compatible 2hd elbow operations, though.

Another reason to maybe increase the estimate is that Fx119 inserters have a smaller range of allowable relative positions of gliders. They're pretty much just like NW31s in terms of being able to place one glider behind another, but not as good at dropping a glider in front of another glider:

Code: Select all

x = 130, y = 53, rule = LifeHistory
38.4B66.4B$37.4B66.4B$36.4B66.4B$35.4B66.7B$35.4B66.9B$34.5B65.11B$
31.9B61.13B$31.9B60.14B$31.9B59.16B$31.10B58.17B$30.12B56.18B$29.13B
8.2A46.19B$30.11B9.A46.20B$31.12B4.BA.A45.20B$31.15B.B2A47.21B$31.17B
49.21B$20.2C9.17B42.2C7.19B$19.C.C6.B.17B42.C.C8.17B$21.C5.2A19B43.C
8.18B$27.2AB.19B50.20B$28.B4.19B49.22B2.2B$33.16BC2B49.18BC10B$33.9B.
4BCBC3B50.14BCBC10B$34.7B2.4B3C2B52.13B3C10B$34.7B2.4BC5B51.13BC12B$
34.6B4.10B50.26B$34.7B10.4B49.13B4.4B.4B$34.6B12.3B49.6B4.3B5.3B$33.
7B13.4B46.7B5.4B4.4B$34.6B15.2A47.6B7.2A6.2A$35.5B15.A49.6B6.A7.A$35.
6B15.3A46.6B7.3A5.3A$37.4B17.A45.8B8.A7.A$36.B2A2B64.6B$37.2A65.7B$
102.11B$3C67.3D27.9B2A2B.B$2.C69.D27.9B2A3B2A$.C69.D28.14B2A$101.14B$
101.3B.2B2.B2.5B$101.2A5.3B4.2A$102.A5.B2AB3.A$99.3A7.2A5.3A$99.A18.A
6$56.3C$58.C$57.C!

When building the elbow-op toolkit we'll have to be very careful to allow the glider pairs to be constructible from both sides, which I think will reduce the allowable pairings quite a bit more. The Fx119 inserter needs a little more lead time if it's reaching across a lane and inserting a trailing glider 2hd on the other side.

[chris_c]

@dvgrn All valid points there.

One other thing I realise is that we only need to use Fx119's on one side. The side not needing the clearance can stay as simple NW31's (oh, and get rid of the added Fx77's?). This would probably result in a saving but complicates the construction by bringing circuitry onto the construction lanes.

EDIT: @simsim314 sorry for taking your "Simplified Demonoid" thread and trying to make Demonoid more complicated again ;)

EDIT2: I was wrong when I wrote that adding the Fx77's changed the period to a multiple of 8. The period does become a multiple of 8 but it can't be due to the Fx77's because they are only used after the glider duplication.

[dvgrn]

One other thing I realise is that we only need to use Fx119's on one side. The side not needing the clearance can stay as simple NW31's (oh, and get rid of the added Fx77's?). This would probably result in a saving but complicates the construction by bringing circuitry onto the construction lanes.

EDIT: @simsim314 sorry for taking your "Simplified Demonoid" thread and trying to make Demonoid more complicated again ;)

Yeah, we've gotten out of the habit of doing the detailed problem-solving needed to build circuit structures in fairly close proximity on both sides of a construction arm. Even the Fx119s may not be quite enough distance to avoid all the collisions between intermediate elbow-op reactions and intermediate construction targets.

No doubt there's a reduced-width set of elbow ops that will be able to build Fx119 inserter circuitry without too much trouble, but that's probably something to keep in mind while doing the searches, as simeks did with early single-channel toolkits.

If you throw a problem like this at slsparse, of course, it will just cavalierly throw in two Snarkmaker recipes, build the whole structure on both sides of the construction arm from a safe distance off to one side, and then use a couple of Snarkbreakers to get back to the original construction arm. Can't do anything like that with 2hd streams, and I'm not sure there'd be enough room between the UC units, anyway... Yup, things get re-complicated fast if you're not careful!

[chris_c]

The clearance of an Fx119 based edge shooter is overkill. All we really need is a version of NW31 that is transparent two lanes towards the "inside" (transparency on the output lane is not even a requirement). Hence the following should be possible. In terms of population, the units are just over twice as big as in the 0hd-Demonoid. The amount of circuitry near the construction lanes is getting fairly horrible though.

Code: Select all

x = 518, y = 397, rule = LifeHistory
153.2A$153.2A5.2A$84.A75.2A$82.3A42.A$81.A43.3A$81.2A41.A33.2A$66.2A
56.2A32.2A$67.A96.2A$67.A.2A93.2A$68.A2.A$69.2A$84.A.A12.2A$84.2A13.
2A26.2A$127.2A5$68.2A$68.2A17.2A.A6.2A$87.2A.3A3.A.A38.2A29.A$93.A2.A
41.A27.3A$87.2A.3A2.2A25.2A11.3A27.A$88.A.A31.2A11.A29.2A$76.2A10.A.A
86.A$76.2A11.A57.2A26.3A$108.2A37.2A25.A$109.A64.2A$106.3A$106.A96.2A
$118.2A83.A$118.A82.A.A$119.3A79.2A13.2A$121.A94.2A3$180.2A40.2A$180.
2A40.2A$218.2A$218.2A$144.2A29.2A$143.A.A29.A.A$143.A33.A$142.2A33.2A
44.2A$155.2A66.2A$154.A.A$154.A$153.2A4$190.2A$190.2A7$203.2A$202.A.A
$202.A$201.2A2$87.2A$87.2A5.2A$18.A75.2A$16.3A42.A$15.A43.3A$15.2A41.
A33.2A117.2A$2A56.2A32.2A117.2A7.2A$.A96.2A120.A$.A.2A93.2A118.A.A$2.
A2.A212.2A$3.2A196.2A$18.2A13.2A166.2A$18.2A13.2A26.2A128.2A$61.2A
129.A$192.A.A$193.2A3$2.2A$2.2A17.2A.A6.2A$21.2A.3A3.A.A38.2A29.A$27.
A2.A41.A27.3A$21.2A.3A2.2A25.2A11.3A27.A$22.A.A31.2A11.A29.2A$10.2A
10.A.A86.A85.2A$10.2A11.A57.2A26.3A84.A.A$42.2A37.2A25.A87.A$43.A64.
2A85.2A$40.3A$40.A96.2A$52.2A83.A$52.A82.A.A$53.3A79.2A13.2A$55.A94.
2A60.2A$212.2A$204.2A$114.2A40.2A47.A$114.2A40.2A44.3A$152.2A48.A$
152.2A$78.2A29.2A92.A$77.A.A29.A.A90.A.A$77.A33.A90.A.A$76.2A33.2A44.
2A41.3A.2A$89.2A66.2A40.A$88.A.A109.3A.2A$88.A113.A.2A$87.2A$212.2A$
212.2A7.2A$221.A$124.2A93.A.A$124.2A93.2A4$199.2A$199.2A2$137.2A$136.
A.A$136.A$135.2A78.A$214.A.A$214.A.A$215.A$216.3A$218.A2$145.2A$145.
2A7.2A$154.A$152.A.A$152.2A$135.2A$135.2A$125.2A$126.A$126.A.A$127.2A
9$131.2A$130.A.A$130.A$129.2A6$146.2A$146.2A$138.2A$139.A$136.3A$136.
A2$137.A$136.A.A$136.A.A$134.3A.2A$133.A$134.3A.2A$136.A.2A2$146.2A$
146.2A7.2A$155.A$153.A.A$153.2A4$133.2A$133.2A5$149.A$148.A.A$148.A.A
$149.A$150.3A$152.A8.3A$161.A$162.A3$296.3A$296.A149.2A$297.A148.2A5.
2A$377.A75.2A$375.3A42.A$374.A43.3A$374.2A41.A33.2A$359.2A56.2A32.2A$
360.A96.2A$360.A.2A93.2A$361.A2.A$362.2A$377.A.A12.2A$377.2A13.2A26.
2A$420.2A5$361.2A$361.2A17.2A.A6.2A$380.2A.3A3.A.A38.2A29.A$386.A2.A
41.A27.3A$380.2A.3A2.2A25.2A11.3A27.A$381.A.A31.2A11.A29.2A$369.2A10.
A.A86.A$369.2A11.A57.2A26.3A$401.2A37.2A25.A$402.A64.2A$399.3A$399.A
96.2A$411.2A83.A$411.A82.A.A$412.3A79.2A13.2A$414.A94.2A3$473.2A40.2A
$473.2A40.2A$511.2A$511.2A$437.2A29.2A$436.A.A29.A.A$436.A33.A$435.2A
33.2A44.2A$448.2A66.2A$447.A.A$447.A$446.2A4$483.2A$483.2A7$496.2A$
495.A.A$495.A$494.2A2$380.2A$380.2A5.2A$311.A75.2A$309.3A42.A$308.A
43.3A$308.2A41.A33.2A117.2A$293.2A56.2A32.2A117.2A7.2A$294.A96.2A120.
A$294.A.2A93.2A118.A.A$295.A2.A212.2A$296.2A196.2A$311.2A13.2A166.2A$
311.2A13.2A26.2A128.2A$354.2A129.A$485.A.A$486.2A3$295.2A$295.2A17.2A
.A6.2A$314.2A.3A3.A.A38.2A29.A$320.A2.A41.A27.3A$314.2A.3A2.2A25.2A
11.3A27.A$315.A.A31.2A11.A29.2A$303.2A10.A.A86.A85.2A$303.2A11.A57.2A
26.3A84.A.A$335.2A37.2A25.A87.A$336.A64.2A85.2A$333.3A$333.A96.2A$
345.2A83.A$345.A82.A.A$346.3A79.2A13.2A$348.A94.2A60.2A$505.2A$497.2A
$407.2A40.2A47.A$407.2A40.2A44.3A$445.2A48.A$445.2A$371.2A29.2A92.A$
370.A.A29.A.A90.A.A$370.A33.A90.A.A$369.2A33.2A44.2A41.3A.2A$382.2A
66.2A40.A$381.A.A109.3A.2A$381.A113.A.2A$380.2A$505.2A$505.2A7.2A$
514.A$417.2A93.A.A$417.2A93.2A4$492.2A$492.2A2$430.2A$429.A.A$429.A$
428.2A78.A$507.A.A$498.2A7.A.A$498.2A8.A$509.3A$511.A2$438.2A$438.2A
7.2A$447.A$445.A.A$445.2A$428.2A$428.2A$418.2A$419.A$419.A.A$420.2A9$
424.2A$423.A.A$423.A$422.2A6$439.2A$439.2A$431.2A$432.A$429.3A$429.A
2$430.A$429.A.A$429.A.A$427.3A.2A$426.A$427.3A.2A$429.A.2A2$439.2A$
439.2A7.2A$448.A$446.A.A$446.2A4$426.2A$426.2A5$442.A$441.A.A$432.2A
7.A.A$432.2A8.A$443.3A$445.A!

[dvgrn]

In terms of population, the units are just over twice as big as in the 0hd-Demonoid. The amount of circuitry near the construction lanes is getting fairly horrible though.

Well, one of simsim314's criteria was "minimal SLs", so that's doing pretty well:

Anyway I like the idea of simplistic design and complex code instead of optimal replication time. There is something aesthetic in the simplest conduit to reproduce itself i.e. minimal amount of SLs.

If a long tape for a small Geminoid is allowable, then we could avoid worrying about what's in the construction-lane "danger zone" by doing the whole construction by meteor shower. Build slow-salvo seeds on each side of the construction lane, along the lines of the one in the original volatility-1 oscillator, and send a final trigger glider to start them off, and all of the construction becomes equally trivial.

On the other hand, twenty still lifes plus two Snarks, for an oblique version of Scorbie's Demonoid, is also minimal SLs and a lot of construction data on the tape -- and it can be customized to hit a much wider range of oblique velocities.

[simsim314]

EDIT: @simsim314 sorry for taking your "Simplified Demonoid" thread and trying to make Demonoid more complicated again

Well after I realized Scorbie basically did it already - I think all this belongs to Demonoid thread anyway.

-----

So how about having 0-hd silver based demonoid? It has a transparent track. It also shoots glider forward and backwards, so the deletion can use the fired glider. Will it be a minimal demonoid? Not sure the tape push is enough though.

------

@Dave & Chris

On the same note - maybe then we can have 0-hd P30 demonoid. We just need P30 transparent reflector (anyone remember of such?), and we also might have many copies (instead of 0-hd's 2), that code all variations of glider pairs (but they must be with the same oscillation step so it limits us a bit). In general we can have 30 copies and odd step, so we could code any glider pair the transparency allows, but I'm not sure there is such transparent P30 reflector. The total cost should be lower for this design than 0-hd, if it can produce any 0-hd glider pair.

EDIT To continue this line of thinking we might want to have such amount of copies that will allow any glider 0hd stream - then we just code arm much faster, even directly with an arm movement search to code slow salvo without converting to block at any point. Just shooting at soups with 14+ glider spacing (or whatever the transparent conduit allows).

[chris_c]

I came up with a method of initialising a Gosper Glider Gun where the relative timing of the gliders only needs to be correct modulo 30. Hardly revolutionary but it could make P30 self-constructing spaceships a bit cheaper if it saves on OTTs.

Code: Select all

x = 153, y = 30, rule = B3/S23
99bo$100b2o$99b2o3$o$b2o$2o12$27b2o102b2o$28bo103bo$28bobo101bobo$29b
2o102b2o2$25b2o9b2o9b2o80b2o9b2o9b2o$13b2o9bobo8bobo9b2o68b2o9bobo8bob
o9b2o$13b2o9b2o9b2o80b2o9b2o9b2o$43b3o101b3o$27b2o14bo87b2o14bo$27b2o
15bo86b2o15bo!