I want the old Sandbox back.

For discussion directly related to ConwayLife.com, such as requesting changes to how the forums or wiki function.
Post Reply
BokaBB
Posts: 2667
Joined: December 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by BokaBB » July 29th, 2021, 7:37 am

Recently I have had some problems on my Discord. I had to log out from my standard Boka B account to one which I use for some work,but my phone repeatedly did not want to open the hCAPTCHA and denied me to log in. I experienced the same thing with my Boka B account.
Because of this,I felt an urge to temporarily (Or permanently,why not.) resettle my empire somewhere else. If you know of a place that resembles Discord, please tell me.
Both The Powder Toy and Warzone seem rather quite unacceptable for the job as the forum of the first is very limited and has harsh moderators while the second one is rich in not-so-good people,though most of people there are actually nice but their possible interest is debatable.
I was recently reading some old threads from the time around my ban. I am starting to believe that this is not the forum as many people want it to be and I am going to try to do some actions in hope of at least partial back to the ways before my ban. Please do not ban me,my intentions are very good now.
Why was I active in The Sandbox(+some history.)?
The reason why I am on The Sandbox is rather very simple:I want to have fun.
However,in the beginning it was not like this.
The first time when I arrived here I have had a strong dislike for The Sandbox, thinking of it as a nest of stupidity. I have hardly ever visited it in this period and almost all of my posts were in OCA.
However,after discovering that the people on whom I counted to explore my rules were rebelling and wanting me to do it (Which I could not do to any bigger extent.) I over time was forced into abstention from this forum when the success of my attempts lowered.
I was not active for quite a bit of time during the summer,though I ocassionally still visited this place. I tried to have fun with Hunting in private messages with mixed results.
However at the turning point of the seasons I discovered the joy of The Sandbox and made a few threads almost instantly,like ,,Natural Gemini Discovered!" that were only made for fun. At first they were mostly CA - related,but then The Thing (Game) and Word Chains (Game) came to the scene. The Classic period begins.
Word Chains almost instantly became a hit and its numbers skyrocketed,only to become the fastest - growing thread in the later periods.
Soon to follow were various scientific CA which were never finished,though a few had a rather intense interest and development.
I divide the Classic period into two separated but culturally rather very similar parts:the Eoclassic and the Neoclassic,which were separated by a partial collapse that happened because of an unrest in the Komal - making team around the turnover of the years. While the Eoclassic was more CA - related and calmer in most areas (Except maybe the Komal language.),in the Neoclassic I experienced a rapid burst of ideas and created an awful lot of new threads,of which many were pointless or almost pointless. Those that were not were often various abstract strategy board games which I like, though imperialist and religious themes also surfaced.
I believe that that imperialism was created in a rather simple way:I was looking for new sources of fun and the power to create and change them to fit me filled me with those ideas. It was like a snowball effect and was hardly stoppable. Maybe it could be if my friends tried to do it a little bit before that. I am no longer filled with these ideas, though I used to think of every thread on The Sandbox not by me as competition that was to be removed by being more active than it. However,I also think that it was a bit overmagnified by others and that that made unnesecarry hate. Even though I wanted to be kind of supreme on The Sandbox,I did not want to do any big harm. Many of my apparently harmful posts were mostly jokes.
Why I became hated by many here?
A big percent of people here developed an active hate of me here.
Reasons:
1. Out of moderators not reacting to my empire even though the rules kind of opposed it I started to believe that I am protected by the moderators. In my belief this would all condense into something better and less bad without banning anyone.
2. I tend to understand all somewhat bad and agressive critics as threats and that person becomes less valuable in my eyes and may be labeled as a potential hostile and enemy. If you were doing better with me (Honestly,no one deserves any worse treatment that me in my opinion if they are not Trumpoids or something.) maybe I would understand it better and some problems would be avoided.
3. Some misinformation was spread by some individuals as it seems. Read the end of: ,,Why was I active in the Sandbox(+some history?",please.
Arguments for backing or at least partially backing the old ways.
The civilization which I built here in The Sandbox in the Classic period was a really impressive thing and it had a lasting legacy on me and my brain.
Some reasons for backing it:
1. There is still a general love for much of the old The Sandbox civilisation here,even though some parts,like Random posts were not made by me.
2. Discord is a bad and very limited tool. For an example,it has a bit limited post size,while that is absent here(Or at least as far as I know.). It also lacks the ability to create many new channels without cloggering up everything and making the whole thing messy. Making a lot of servers also will not help in my belief as it will be hard for one person to moderate big amounts of things at once.
3. There has been a general resurgence in theads related to fun things,like tangram.
4. The number of the unsatisfied people is still likely very big. I believe that that number will also rise after this post,but its purpose is not to generate them but to explain some things in better detail and hopefully reinstate the old ways with given arguments that will hopefully have an impact on this society.
5. I saw that dvrgn said that Word Chains are difficult to moderate somewhere. That is not true. No moderation is needed there at all. The community will likely report any bad thing and it will be eliminated. Word Chains is also probably one of the most focused threads and there is almost zero non - Word Chains - related content there. Any bullies will be exterminated quickly by the faithful community. May also be true with most of The Sandbox posts.
What changes would be made to the old reused system?
1. There should be no authoritarianism and bad posts.
2. It will be advised to not post too much on non - CA related posts much.
3. There should be a limited number of threads per week per user. I think that 3 or something like that would be a good thing.
4. No posts without any meaning will be allowed. However,threads with a goal to raise awareness about problems should be allowed,altrough we can probably pack them in a single thread.
5. Surely a few more,but it is up for a discussion.
Now,you may think:,,BokaBB,why you do not do any CA?". Please read this. It is all in bold to stress its importance,may be removed if needed.

I feel discriminated here. Yes,I feel discriminated!
When most of the work is done by a small elite with the commoners suffering even though they have excellent rules?Not everyone has the possibility to do some things and not everyone is given knowledge on how to build things!I am tired of this. By the way most of the users here are inactive because they are not given any help at all!
We should be much more egalitarian and with thinner class borders. We should help each other and embrace these beautiful rules,not to terrorize each other and select which rules to explore by one's pocket for buying big computers!What we are doing now is not the right way!Many people are unable to do many kinds of things and they should be helped and cared for!
I was not really much of a bad person and I am no longer like these bad parts of what I was, accept it!The ,,academicness" will not really be harmed here.


This is by far my strongest statement and I expect it to stay unbroken for a very long time or never be broken.
Please do not ban me or delete this thread,I just want to discuss things. I will not give up this time for good.
Have a good day!

BokaBB

User avatar
dvgrn
Moderator
Posts: 8222
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by dvgrn » July 29th, 2021, 8:32 am

BokaBB wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 7:37 am
I saw that [dvgrn] said that Word Chains are difficult to moderate somewhere. That is not true. No moderation is needed there at all. The community will likely report any bad thing and it will be eliminated.
Games like Word Chains are inherently problematic, because they generate lots of posts, which tend to keep the topic at the top of the Recent Posts list, displacing other topics which are actually related to cellular automata.

It makes absolutely no sense to say that "no moderation is needed there at all" followed by a mention of bad things getting reported and eliminated. Moderators are precisely the people who have to do the work of dealing with any such reports. Reports about irrelevant posts in irrelevant topics in the Sandbox are some of the most irritating things that moderators have to deal with -- simply because they waste a significant amount of time that could otherwise be spent on actual interesting/useful CA research.

I would strongly encourage anyone using the Sandbox to solve their own problems as much as possible without making use of the reporting system. If lots of trivial reports are created, showing that people are incapable of learning to play nicely in the Sandbox without relying on moderators to police them, then that amounts to very good evidence that the Sandbox should simply be closed so that the forums can focus properly on cellular automata.
BokaBB wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 7:37 am
Please do not ban me, my intentions are very good now.
BokaBB, if you could please never post the words "Please do not ban me" again, that would be very helpful. The decision about whether to ban a forum user doesn't have anything to do with their intentions, or with how politely they ask people to pay lots of extra attention to them and give them special consideration. A ban happens when 1) someone's behavior is having a significant negative effect on the rest of the community, and 2) they don't show any evidence of being able to learn how to change their behavior. This is worth emphasizing, and it's something you should think very carefully about: people who demand lots of extra attention tend to have a significant negative effect on the community -- because they cause a lot of distraction without contributing much of anything to the community's intended purpose.

Since your appearance on the conwaylife.com forums, you have caused a significant amount of trouble, and you've wasted many, many hours of moderators' and other people's time, as we've tried to explain to you how to use the forums as they're intended to be used. You will very likely trigger something like a one-year or two-year ban without much further discussion, if you return to making lots of new threads or lots of posts, above the thresholds set here. That is to say, ten posts per day is way too many, unless they're actually valid posts about cellular automata in which case they might be fine.

BokaBB
Posts: 2667
Joined: December 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by BokaBB » July 29th, 2021, 11:16 am

I have little time now but I should say that the bold text is very important and meant to be responded to,dvgrn.
Have a good day!

BokaBB

BokaBB
Posts: 2667
Joined: December 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by BokaBB » July 29th, 2021, 11:54 am

Now I have more time.
By the way I do not see Recent posts as a very commonly used thread as I do not recall there being a direct link to it from the front page. Also,if I ultimately convince you,the 10 posts limit may be killed.
Have a good day!

BokaBB

User avatar
calcyman
Posts: 2478
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by calcyman » July 29th, 2021, 1:12 pm

BokaBB wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 7:37 am
I feel discriminated here. Yes,I feel discriminated!
You should follow wwei23's example: they started off as annoying, and then had a temporary ban, and now they actually contribute useful discoveries such as this transparent-block biLWSS-to-H:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2817&start=250#p134152

and that spectacular star-based synthesis of the p5 sparker. This community is sufficiently patient and forgiving that this sort of transformation (from annoying n00b to productive contributor) is possible. But it does require a great willingness and effort from you to consciously make this transformation; you can't expect others to do the work on your behalf.
When most of the work is done by a small elite with the commoners suffering even though they have excellent rules?Not everyone has the possibility to do some things
The great thing about GoL and cellular automata is that there are so many ways to contribute and carve out a niche that you're experienced in. For example, Extrementhusiast and Goldtiger997 have mastered the art of synthesising difficult spaceships to an extraordinary Magnus-Carlsen-esque level. To me, that looks like some mysterious dark magic.

Then there are other niches such as finding new oscillators and glider guns, and a separate niche of optimising their bounding boxes.

I'm not really good at any of those things, but I can write various command-line tools (e.g. slsparse and ikpx2) and design large contraptions (such as the pi calculator and 0E0P metacell). For a short while I was reasonably competitive at building self-replicators in circuitry rules (JvN29/Nobili32/Codd), but then fluffykitty and Redstoneboi hugely overtook me.
and not everyone is given knowledge on how to build things!I am tired of this. By the way most of the users here are inactive because they are not given any help at all!
The LifeWiki and (non-Sandbox) forums are vast repositories of open knowledge. Take the time to actually read these resources, and try building/discovering things in existing cellular automata before exploring other cellular automata. (I say this because many ideas are transferable between different rules, and the more established rules -- with B3/S23 being the best example by far -- tend to have richer discoveries.)

If you are interested in exploring your own rules, then the general advice is to explore for a while and then become obsessively interested in one of those rules. If you spread yourself too thinly between different rules, then you're not going to be able to put in the amount of effort required to do more than scratch the surface. Here's a good example of a recent OCA that's been properly extensively explored:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3943&hilit=B2ein&start=50#p75164

The point at which you've gone deeper than scratching the surface is once you find things beyond what you can do with apgsearch or ikpx2.

There are even some excellent tutorials written by dvgrn, Saka, Apple Bottom and others: https://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Tutorials
We should be much more egalitarian and with thinner class borders.
Class borders? What are you talking about? This is an open friendly academic discussion forum, not a feudal kingdom. There are no paywalls, or accreditation requirements, or other barriers to entry; no-one is stopping you from making discoveries. The community is already egalitarian, which is why contributions from pseudonymous users such as zdr are enthusiastically accepted by the community.
We should help each other and embrace these beautiful rules,not to terrorize each other and select which rules to explore by one's pocket for buying big computers!
The art of developing complicated glider syntheses, or optimising the layout of a glider gun, is currently something that's done entirely manually with no need for 'big computers'. Moreover, anything that I did prior to 2017 was on a low-end laptop, and prior to 2012 (including the pi calculator!) was built on a single-core desktop from 2001 with 512 MB of memory.
What we are doing now is not the right way!Many people are unable to do many kinds of things and they should be helped and cared for!
There are threads for asking for help, such as 'basic questions' and Gustavo's thread: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1257

If you have a question or need specific help, then those are great places to post.
I have little time now but I should say that the bold text is very important and meant to be responded to,dvgrn.
Have you not considered the fact that Dave Greene, and the rest of us, are real people who also have 'little time' and research CGoL as a hobby in our spare time? None of us are paid to moderate this forum -- we do it voluntarily -- and it's rude to make such demands. A boss in a commercial organisation might get away with making that request, but she would be courteous enough to add 'please' at the very least.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

BokaBB
Posts: 2667
Joined: December 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by BokaBB » July 29th, 2021, 1:27 pm

calcuman wrote:
,
if you want me to contribute,then help me and say how. Give me some ideas at least.
I have a 32 - bit laptop but no Wi - Fi,an Android phone with the operative system 7.0 and Golly. I once or twice suceed in opening rlifesrc but I often have problems entering it. I know a little, little bit of programming,but nothing useful here. I also cannot spend too much time daily on this,so the programs that are quick to use and available on phone are what I would enjoy the most.
By the way I am extremely unlikely to discover anything in Conway's game of life or other well - known rules not already known. Also,I feel like LifeWiki needs better organization because it does not really give me ideas on how to build something all that much.
Thoughts?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

User avatar
calcyman
Posts: 2478
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by calcyman » July 29th, 2021, 1:36 pm

BokaBB wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 1:27 pm
if you want me to contribute,then help me and say how. Give me some ideas at least.
I have a 32 - bit laptop but no Wi - Fi,an Android phone with the operative system 7.0 and Golly. I once or twice suceed in opening rlifesrc but I often have problems entering it. I know a little, little bit of programming,but nothing useful here. I also cannot spend too much time daily on this,so the programs that are quick to use and available on phone are what I would enjoy the most.
By the way I am extremely unlikely to discover anything in Conway's game of life or other well - known rules not already known. Also,I feel like LifeWiki needs better organization because it does not really give me ideas on how to build something all that much.
Here's a fun place to start: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2817

Choose a random link on dvgrn's post, and see if you can make it faster (potentially by using new technology that wasn't available at the time).

EDIT: for instance, I think that you can improve the 475-tick recovery time of this swimmer-to-G by using a staged recovery system: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2799&p=42094#p42094
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

BokaBB
Posts: 2667
Joined: December 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by BokaBB » July 29th, 2021, 1:40 pm

calcyman wrote:How to copy from LifeViewer to Golly?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

User avatar
calcyman
Posts: 2478
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by calcyman » July 29th, 2021, 1:43 pm

BokaBB wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 1:40 pm
How to copy from LifeViewer to Golly?
Click on the LifeViewer to interact with it and then press Ctrl+C. It should say 'copied to clipboard' or words to that effect. Then open Golly and go to File --> Open Clipboard.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

BokaBB
Posts: 2667
Joined: December 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by BokaBB » July 29th, 2021, 1:44 pm

calcyman wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 1:43 pm
BokaBB wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 1:40 pm
How to copy from LifeViewer to Golly?
Click on the LifeViewer to interact with it and then press Ctrl+C. It should say 'copied to clipboard' or words to that effect. Then open Golly and go to File --> Open Clipboard.
I am on phone right now.
Have a good day!

BokaBB

User avatar
wwei47
Posts: 1022
Joined: February 18th, 2021, 11:18 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by wwei47 » July 29th, 2021, 1:50 pm

BokaBB wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 1:44 pm
I am on phone right now.
Have a good day!

BokaBB
Gear button->Pattern->Save pattern
calcyman wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 1:12 pm
You should follow wwei23's example: they started off as annoying, and then had a temporary ban, and now they actually contribute useful discoveries such as this transparent-block biLWSS-to-H:
I doubt that getting banned has much do do with it, simply because I know I annoyed people in the immediate days after the ban ended. All I know is that I eventually returned as a very different person.
Self-proclaimed synthesis "expert"

BokaBB
Posts: 2667
Joined: December 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by BokaBB » July 29th, 2021, 1:59 pm

wwei47 wrote:Can you tell me more about your ban?
What you said does not work at me and instead gives me something weird and apparently always the same, suggesting that that does not work at me.
Have a good day!

BokaBB
Attachments
Screenshot_20210729-195819.png
Screenshot_20210729-195819.png (46.62 KiB) Viewed 588 times

User avatar
wwei47
Posts: 1022
Joined: February 18th, 2021, 11:18 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by wwei47 » July 29th, 2021, 9:17 pm

BokaBB wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 1:59 pm
What you said does not work at me and instead gives me something weird and apparently always the same, suggesting that that does not work at me.
Have a good day!
I cannot troubleshoot as I do not have Golly installed on any mobile device, due to the decision to support every major platform except iPhones. Try asking iNoMed.
Self-proclaimed synthesis "expert"

BokaBB
Posts: 2667
Joined: December 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

Re: I want the old Sandbox back.

Post by BokaBB » July 30th, 2021, 1:34 am

iNoMed wrote:How to copy from LifeViewer to Golly on a Android phone?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

Post Reply