Life viewer is not allowed

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Shaos
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Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Shaos » April 19th, 2020, 4:23 pm

Please add to the rules that life viewer tag is not allowed (at least for newbies) because right now it is a strange situation when it's kind of allowed (and included as a button in dialog form) but then somebody reach you through private messages and "politely" ask you to change viewer tag to code tag...

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dvgrn
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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by dvgrn » April 19th, 2020, 5:12 pm

Shaos wrote:
April 19th, 2020, 4:23 pm
Please add to the rules that life viewer tag is not allowed (at least for newbies) because right now it is a strange situation when it's kind of allowed (and included as a button in dialog form) but then somebody reach you through private messages and "politely" ask you to change viewer tag to code tag...
Well, it's not that LifeViewer isn't allowed, just that new-user overuse of the "viewer" tag instead of the "code" tag does happen quite regularly, resulting in a lot of slightly painful scrolling. Here again, the rule is in place so that there's something to point to when it seems like a new user is going a bit too far overboard.

As with the double-posting issue, I've definitely seen people suggesting that the rule should be strictly followed, in situations where it seems perfectly reasonable to me to allow an occasional viewer tag. I'd suggest that it's worth taking these good-faith suggestions with a grain of salt (but that people are in fact doing their best to be polite until proven otherwise, so scare quotes may not be needed)... and only when you get multiple PMs from different people, maybe consider the possibility that you _might_ be overdoing it after all.

... But then I'm a repeat offender in both the viewer-tag and double-post departments, myself, and yet haven't heard too many complaints recently. Either I've been successfully keep these sporadic offenses to a reasonable level, or possibly people have given up on me and are ignoring my bad behavior instead of complaining about it.

EDIT: I've adjusted the last paragraph of the rules so that now there's an official #5 item about the "viewer" tag.

Shaos
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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Shaos » April 19th, 2020, 5:21 pm

Great - thanks, now it's all consistent :)

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confocaloid
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Re: would it be possible to make "code" easier to discover and use?

Post by confocaloid » December 3rd, 2023, 3:17 am

Would it be possible to make the preferred way of sharing patterns (i.e. code tags) easier to discover and use for newcomers, and to make the "viewer" tags less visible in the "Post a reply" form? I think it is inconsistent that the button for the recommended feature is harder to notice (the UI encourages what is discouraged by the rules).
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Re: would it be possible to make "code" easier to discover and use?

Post by Haycat2009 » December 7th, 2023, 5:44 am

confocaloid wrote:
December 3rd, 2023, 3:17 am
Would it be possible to make the preferred way of sharing patterns (i.e. code tags) easier to discover and use for newcomers, and to make the "viewer" tags less visible in the "Post a reply" form? I think it is inconsistent that the button for the recommended feature is harder to notice (the UI encourages what is discouraged by the rules).
I thought so too. Newbies usually use what they see first then realise other options exist too.
~ Haycat Durnak, a hard-working editor
Also, support Conway and Friends story mode!
I mean no harm to those who have tested me. But do not take this for granted.

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confocaloid
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Re: would it be possible to make "code" easier to discover and use?

Post by confocaloid » January 30th, 2024, 6:48 pm

bump
confocaloid wrote:
December 3rd, 2023, 3:17 am
Would it be possible to make the preferred way of sharing patterns (i.e. code tags) easier to discover and use for newcomers, and to make the "viewer" tags less visible in the "Post a reply" form? I think it is inconsistent that the button for the recommended feature is harder to notice (the UI encourages what is discouraged by the rules).

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Nathaniel
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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Nathaniel » February 11th, 2024, 11:30 am

I can muck around with the phpBB internals if needed, but I prefer not to do that without really good reason, since it can cause issues when we update to a new software version. The "off the shelf" phpBB code customization options are very limited -- I can only add new phpBB codes, and optionally display a button with that code name after all other formatting buttons (this is currently used for the "catagolue", "viewer", and "wiki" tags).

With that in mind, how about the following?
  • Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.
  • Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.

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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by haaaaaands » February 11th, 2024, 11:46 am

Nathaniel wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 11:30 am
I can muck around with the phpBB internals if needed, but I prefer not to do that without really good reason, since it can cause issues when we update to a new software version. The "off the shelf" phpBB code customization options are very limited -- I can only add new phpBB codes, and optionally display a button with that code name after all other formatting buttons (this is currently used for the "catagolue", "viewer", and "wiki" tags).

With that in mind, how about the following?
  • Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.
  • Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.
hmm...
seems like a good idea, i sometimes get a bit confused myself on patterns being code, so seems like a good idea for people who dont even know that it works like that...
-- haaaaaands with 6 a's



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currently offline. work sucks.

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hotcrystal0
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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by hotcrystal0 » February 11th, 2024, 3:17 pm

Nathaniel wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 11:30 am
I can muck around with the phpBB internals if needed, but I prefer not to do that without really good reason, since it can cause issues when we update to a new software version. The "off the shelf" phpBB code customization options are very limited -- I can only add new phpBB codes, and optionally display a button with that code name after all other formatting buttons (this is currently used for the "catagolue", "viewer", and "wiki" tags).

With that in mind, how about the following?
  • Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.
  • Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.
How about making the viewer/LV tag invisible to people with accounts under three months old?

Code: Select all

x = 192, y = 53, rule = B3/S23
33$42b4o$41b6o$40b2ob4o$41b2o3$41b2o$39bo6bo$38bo8bo$38bo8bo$38b9o3$42b
4o$41b6o$40b2ob4o$41b2o!

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Nathaniel
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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Nathaniel » February 11th, 2024, 3:28 pm

hotcrystal0 wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 3:17 pm
How about making the viewer/LV tag invisible to people with accounts under three months old?
Not possible without quite a bit of under-the-hood mucking, unfortunately.

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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by hotcrystal0 » February 11th, 2024, 3:29 pm

Nathaniel wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 3:28 pm
hotcrystal0 wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 3:17 pm
How about making the viewer/LV tag invisible to people with accounts under three months old?
Not possible without quite a bit of under-the-hood mucking, unfortunately.
Is it still possible, though?

Code: Select all

x = 192, y = 53, rule = B3/S23
33$42b4o$41b6o$40b2ob4o$41b2o3$41b2o$39bo6bo$38bo8bo$38bo8bo$38b9o3$42b
4o$41b6o$40b2ob4o$41b2o!

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confocaloid
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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by confocaloid » February 11th, 2024, 4:11 pm

Nathaniel wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 11:30 am
With that in mind, how about the following?
  • Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.
  • Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.
I wanted to say I support both suggestions. Hiding "viewer" button and showing "LV" instead would decrease probability that a newcomer will immediately post a viewer. Adding a "pattern" button woud increase chances that a newcomer will notice and use it.

Would the "pattern" button add the same pair of tags ([code]...[/code]), or a new different pair of tags (which will then be processed in the same way as code tags to add "show in viewer" links)?
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic rules, incomplete)
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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Nathaniel » February 11th, 2024, 6:11 pm

hotcrystal0 wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 3:29 pm
Is it still possible, though?
Basically anything is possible. PHP is Turing-complete, after all. It's just a matter of (a) how much effort it would take on my part to make it work (I don't know whether things like "account creation date" are already pulled into the posting page's scope, for example, or if I'd have to pull that info out of the database on my own), and (b) how likely it is to break the website when I update to newer versions of phpBB in the future.

In this particular case, I think that it would require some rather serious tinkering inside of phpBB, so the time cost in (a) would likely be a bit higher than I want it to be, and the risk in (b) would likely also be a bit higher than I want it to be.
confocaloid wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 4:11 pm
Would the "pattern" button add the same pair of tags ([code]...[/code]), or a new different pair of tags (which will then be processed in the same way as code tags to add "show in viewer" links)?
The easiest implementation from my end would be for there to now be two separate sets of tags ([code]...[/code] and [pattern]...[/pattern]) which do the exact same thing. I.e., the new "pattern" tag would be processed in the same way as "code" tags.

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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Nathaniel » February 15th, 2024, 12:37 pm

Nathaniel wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 11:30 am
  • Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.
  • Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.
This is now done. You should now see "LV" and "pattern" tags on the posting page. They do the same as the still-existing "viewer" and "code" tags. Let me know if you encounter any weirdness.

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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by hotcrystal0 » February 15th, 2024, 6:16 pm

Nathaniel wrote:
February 15th, 2024, 12:37 pm
Nathaniel wrote:
February 11th, 2024, 11:30 am
  • Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.
  • Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.
This is now done. You should now see "LV" and "pattern" tags on the posting page. They do the same as the still-existing "viewer" and "code" tags. Let me know if you encounter any weirdness.
Suggestion: keep the “viewer” tag as a button with a square on it, right after the “color” tag option. This would look bland, and newcomers wouldn’t be tempted to use it.

Code: Select all

x = 192, y = 53, rule = B3/S23
33$42b4o$41b6o$40b2ob4o$41b2o3$41b2o$39bo6bo$38bo8bo$38bo8bo$38b9o3$42b
4o$41b6o$40b2ob4o$41b2o!

Haycat2009
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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Haycat2009 » February 15th, 2024, 8:03 pm

Is the LV tag the viewer tag or the code tag? It is hard to tell.
~ Haycat Durnak, a hard-working editor
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I mean no harm to those who have tested me. But do not take this for granted.

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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Sokwe » February 15th, 2024, 8:49 pm

Haycat2009 wrote:
February 15th, 2024, 8:03 pm
Is the LV tag the viewer tag or the code tag? It is hard to tell.
You can test how the tag works by using the preview feature while making a post. The viewer tag still works, so you should be able to test them side-by-side to see if they behave the same. There should be no need to submit the test post.
-Matthias Merzenich

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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by hotcrystal0 » February 16th, 2024, 8:52 am

Other idea: add an “old layout” checkbox that when checked, switches the button layout back to the old one. Newcomers probably wouldn’t use it.

Code: Select all

x = 192, y = 53, rule = B3/S23
33$42b4o$41b6o$40b2ob4o$41b2o3$41b2o$39bo6bo$38bo8bo$38bo8bo$38b9o3$42b
4o$41b6o$40b2ob4o$41b2o!

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Re: Life viewer is not allowed

Post by Sokwe » February 16th, 2024, 9:23 pm

Forums rule 5 should be updated to reflect the new tags. I think the use of "pattern" tags should be encouraged, because it is easy to identify the pattern tag button in the editor. The code tag button has always been hard to find for newcomers.
hotcrystal0 wrote:
February 16th, 2024, 8:52 am
Other idea: add an “old layout” checkbox that when checked, switches the button layout back to the old one. Newcomers probably wouldn’t use it.
This seems unnecessarily complicated. The new layout provides everything the old layout did.
-Matthias Merzenich

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