Discord

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carsoncheng
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Re: Discord

Post by carsoncheng » January 13th, 2024, 8:43 pm

dbell wrote:
January 12th, 2024, 8:52 am
I was reading the latest wiki news and a link to discord was used.

I object to this practice. Unlike the Life forums, discord is not generally usable by normal users.

I don't mind the power users using discord to communicate results among themselves, but it should not be seen where normal users are required to use it.

If a result is important enough, it should be written as an article as part of the wiki.

I for one refuse to use a site such as discord, and I feel excluded.

David I. Bell
apgoucher has just mentioned on discord that he plans to write a full article once a general-case proof (on the phoenices) has been completed, so perhaps all we can do at this point is wait.

IMPORTANT EDIT: EvinZL has just posted a short summary of the proof on the oscillator discussion thread (https://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=175654#p175654)

Meanwhile if you would really like to access the current progress without accessing the discord, you can download very's json file on the main cgol channel on the discord and run confocal's script to convert this into text. There is information about the proof in the json file (though without a good summary of the progress it might not be as easy to navigate)

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dvgrn
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Re: Discord

Post by dvgrn » January 13th, 2024, 11:59 pm

MXMLLN wrote:
January 13th, 2024, 4:47 pm
Maybe my country is blocked. It's hard to imagine getting banned from a server I was never able to join.
It turns out that you actually did join the ConwayLife Lounge very briefly, but somebody then made a snap judgment resulting in a ban.

I'm not sure if the Discord mods were maybe dealing with an influx of spammer accounts at the time -- your username might just have happened to look a little too much like an attempt to advertise a game, or something like that.

Try the link again.

MXMLLN
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Re: Discord

Post by MXMLLN » January 14th, 2024, 12:14 am

Thanks!
I'm in.

Here's how I was banned:
kittytac said "Literally a shill" and banned me as soon as I entered the server. Before I took any action...

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confocaloid
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Re: Discord

Post by confocaloid » January 16th, 2024, 3:54 am

carsoncheng wrote:
January 13th, 2024, 8:43 pm
Meanwhile if you would really like to access the current progress without accessing the discord, you can download very's json file on the main cgol channel on the discord and run confocal's script to convert this into text.
Some way to access the current progress without having to register/login would help. Hopefully people crosspost the interesting/important stuff.
I don't know how likely are updates to the json dump; that could help too. The conversion script could be improved as well.

I'm here crossposting/linking older relevant posts to this thread
dani wrote:
November 8th, 2022, 6:33 pm
[...]
I'm really worried that some of the new oscillators posted on Discord aren't making their way here. I can't go back and check right now but perhaps a daily "roll call" where someone goes through the messages from the past day and posts whatever hasn't gotten here yet would be useful.
Scorbie, in a thread 'Forum posting discord bot idea dump' wrote:
November 8th, 2022, 10:36 pm
For the need of a posting bot, see viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1437&start=3375#p153291
[...]
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.

AlbertArmStain
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Re: Discord

Post by AlbertArmStain » January 16th, 2024, 12:02 pm

Something more annoying is that some people will only post in the Discord and some things never actually get cross posted. Me and other people have to cross post these things into the forums, taking up time in our day. Some people might not see these uncross posted discoveries until they make an account for Discord, which may not be worth it in terms of privacy policy.

MXMLLN
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Re: Discord

Post by MXMLLN » January 16th, 2024, 12:38 pm

Outsider, objective opinion and suggestion:
Summary - People that post only in the Discord and do not cross-post on the wiki are effectively "choosing" not to "publish" their work. They are implicitly acknowledging that Discord posts, just like on social media or in messaging apps, will be difficult to find and are more or less lost forever.
An alternative solution is to add a bot that drastically reduces the effort it takes for people to cross-post and will integrate into their workflow, eg, copying over a flagged post's content and adding it to their Todo list.

I'm new to the community, both here and in the Discord, so have reservations about suggesting a solution. Sadly, I couldn't resist the compulsion to add two of my cents.

Suggestion 001: Do Nothing
The problem of getting people to post their Discord work in the wiki is analogous to publishing work more generally. People will often write content and post on social media or their blog as a quick way to show their work. However, more professionally and practically inclined people, like myself, have little interest in creating disposable content and will only release work as publications on more widely distributed platforms, like academic publications, news channels, online magazines, &c. Then there are the diligent people that cross-post, doing a huge service to humanity.

From my perspective, this is just the way things are. By identifying these underlying behaviors, we can all set our expectations accordingly and come to terms with the divided state of the content. If we accept these terms, it brings us back to the initial and final question: Should Discord posts be included in Wiki News.

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confocaloid
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Re: Discord

Post by confocaloid » January 16th, 2024, 1:22 pm

Links from the wiki should help readers to get more information and to verify the claims made on the wiki. If a link leads to an opaque message that is not written to be read by people who do not yet know the stuff, requires registration just to view, and might disappear at any time, then the link might as well not be there.

A bot ( viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5857 ) and/or a dump updated from time to time could partially help, if that is implementable. But an explanation/exposition suitable for readers will still have to be written by someone (a bot cannot automagically fix the problem with experts frequently talking to themselves).
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.

Sokwe
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Re: Discord

Post by Sokwe » January 16th, 2024, 9:56 pm

AlbertArmStain wrote:
January 16th, 2024, 12:02 pm
Something more annoying is that some people will only post in the Discord and some things never actually get cross posted. Me and other people have to cross post these things into the forums, taking up time in our day. Some people might not see these uncross posted discoveries until they make an account for Discord, which may not be worth it in terms of privacy policy.
Absolutely! There is a reasonable danger of interesting discoveries being lost forever because they were posted in a never ending feed of chit-chat. I have asked repeatedly on Discord why people don't cross-post, but I have never received a satisfactory response.
confocaloid wrote:
January 16th, 2024, 1:22 pm
If a link leads to an opaque message that is not written to be read by people who do not yet know the stuff
I'm not sure what you mean by "not yet know the stuff", but if you're talking about not having a certain technical expertise in the subject being discussed, then I disagree. Not everything can be reasonably written in such a way that no background knowledge is needed.
confocaloid wrote:
January 16th, 2024, 1:22 pm
requires registration just to view, and might disappear at any time
This is definitely a big issue, which is why people need to cross-post to the forums.
confocaloid wrote:
January 16th, 2024, 1:22 pm
then the link might as well not be there.
I disagree. A link to the information, even if it is somewhat more difficult to access, is better than no link. It also serves as a bit of note keeping for a platform (Discord) that is very difficult to search. Without the link, the information will get lost. With the link, that's only a possibility.
-Matthias Merzenich

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confocaloid
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Re: Discord

Post by confocaloid » January 17th, 2024, 3:23 am

Sokwe wrote:
January 16th, 2024, 9:56 pm
confocaloid wrote:
January 16th, 2024, 1:22 pm
If a link leads to an opaque message that is not written to be read by people who do not yet know the stuff
I'm not sure what you mean by "not yet know the stuff", but if you're talking about not having a certain technical expertise in the subject being discussed, then I disagree. Not everything can be reasonably written in such a way that no background knowledge is needed.
Sorry for confusion. I agree that different topics need different background knowledge, which cannot be always put in a single self-contained article.

What I meant is that the information in the linked posts is in many cases insufficiently well-organized / well-presented, to be of much help to a reader who tries to understand the ideas that are discussed/involved in the linking article. "Work-in-progress" communication between enthusiasts trying to solve some puzzle is different from the communication between an enthusiast and a newcomer/a LifeWiki reader.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.

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confocaloid
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Re: Discord

Post by confocaloid » January 27th, 2024, 4:29 pm

I suggest to make the forum thread Thread for Discord crossposts pinned in the General discussion subforum.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.

iddi01
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Re: Discord

Post by iddi01 » February 4th, 2024, 9:18 am

8 important reasons why Discord is bad:
1. Due to the easiness to post there (just hit enter), people don't think twice before posting,
causing "bad" stuff to frequently appear there, pushing the high-quality stuff away (if there even has any.)
2. Discussion there are so fast that they are usually over before anyone else could join in, and so fast that you have no time to think,
so you could easily say something that you regret.
3. Discord is really bad at preserving stuff, so you could write out a masterpiece and watch it getting pushed into the void by some chitchat...
4. Unlike forums, Discord servers are not customizable, especially without "boosts". They look exactly the same.
5. At any given time, only about 0.5% of people in the "online" list is actually online.
The rest is active on some other server you might not even have heard about.
6. Does any forum require you to buy a $10 "Nitro" to not limit your choices?
7. In history, Discord made many changes that causes thousands and thousands of people to complain, especially recently, and those changes are never reversed back.
8. Discord is forums' worst enemy. Countless forums are abandoned because of it. A few Discord users even said, "i wonder why forums still exist"
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confocaloid
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Re: Discord

Post by confocaloid » February 29th, 2024, 8:15 am

I noticed that the json file (that was linked earlier in this thread) is no longer available. The link gives 404.
very wrote:
January 13th, 2024, 11:14 am
unrelated, but here's an archive of all messages in the cgol channel, in json format - i've tried formatting it in some better format, to no avail

this doesn't include the attachments either, but hopefully this will at least partially alleviate the "being held hostage by discord" thing

https://github.com/SuffixAutomata/uploa ... n/cgol.zip
carsoncheng wrote:
January 13th, 2024, 8:43 pm
[...]
Meanwhile if you would really like to access the current progress without accessing the discord, you can download very's json file on the main cgol channel on the discord and run confocal's script to convert this into text. There is information about the proof in the json file (though without a good summary of the progress it might not be as easy to navigate)
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.

AlbertArmStain
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Location: Planet Z

Re: Discord

Post by AlbertArmStain » April 26th, 2024, 5:21 am

Every time I try to click on the invite link, it tells me it’s invalid or expired. Is there a reason for this?

MXMLLN
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Re: Discord

Post by MXMLLN » April 26th, 2024, 2:25 pm

AlbertArmStain wrote:
April 26th, 2024, 5:21 am
Every time I try to click on the invite link, it tells me it’s invalid or expired. Is there a reason for this?
No, it's a user experience bug on Discord's side.
Invitation links have to be "created" and the default configuration is set for 1 week. It's easy to miss this when creating a link.

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wwei47
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Re: Discord

Post by wwei47 » May 15th, 2024, 1:20 pm

SEE EDIT 2. THESE ISSUES HAVE BEEN RESOLVED FOR THE MOST PART.
iddi01 wrote:
February 4th, 2024, 9:18 am
8 important reasons why Discord is bad:
1. Due to the easiness to post there (just hit enter), people don't think twice before posting,
causing "bad" stuff to frequently appear there, pushing the high-quality stuff away (if there even has any.)
2. Discussion there are so fast that they are usually over before anyone else could join in, and so fast that you have no time to think,
so you could easily say something that you regret.
3. Discord is really bad at preserving stuff, so you could write out a masterpiece and watch it getting pushed into the void by some chitchat...
4. Unlike forums, Discord servers are not customizable, especially without "boosts". They look exactly the same.
5. At any given time, only about 0.5% of people in the "online" list is actually online.
The rest is active on some other server you might not even have heard about.
6. Does any forum require you to buy a $10 "Nitro" to not limit your choices?
7. In history, Discord made many changes that causes thousands and thousands of people to complain, especially recently, and those changes are never reversed back.
8. Discord is forums' worst enemy. Countless forums are abandoned because of it. A few Discord users even said, "i wonder why forums still exist"
Expanding on 8:

I remember back in 2018, the main direction of information flow seemed to be from the forums to the discord. At that time, the epicenter of research was still on the forums. These days, the main direction of information flow seems to be from the discord to the forums. Now, the epicenter of research seems to be the discord, meaning that you need to be in the discord if you want to stay as up-to-date as possible.

I get that it is sometimes necessary to ban people, but consider:

1. A ban from the discord tends to have a larger effect than a ban from the forums, simply because you can still see forum posts when you're banned from the forums, but you can't see discord messages when you're banned from the discord. Patterns on the discord can't be accessed if you're banned from the discord, meaning that one source of information is completely locked away from you.

2. It seems to be much easier to get banned from the discord than from the forums. The two examples that come to mind right now are AlbertArmStein and Drone_Better, who both contribute on the forums. The place where the most information is created is the place where it is easiest to get banned. To be clear, I am not saying that we should unban everyone from the Discord. The bans themselves may be necessary, but they uncover a deeper issue.

3. Discord bans tend to be much longer than forum bans. The longest forum ban I've gotten is a day. The longest forum ban I've seen applied to anyone else is one month. As for discord bans? I have yet to see anything shorter than 4 to 6 months*, and they can go on for years. This ends up making the first two points even more severe than they already were.

In other words, the combination of discord bans being more severe in nature, more common, and much longer than forum bans ends up getting in the way of people who don't fit well in the discord but still want to contribute (AlbertArmStein, Drone_Better, et al.). It is still possible to research on your own, but you can't build off of work you can't see.

I have decided to leave the discord because of this. The cost is steep for the reasons listed above, even if I wasn't actually banned, but by using the forums as my main epicenter of research, I hope I can at least partially reverse the current, by forcing my work to be crossposted from the forums to the discord, instead of the other way around.

Finally, I have asked (albeit very indirectly) about why people are banned from the discord instead of just being muted, which would solve all three problems. The answer is that even if you're muted, you are still able to DM people in the server, which includes potential harassment of mods. This isn't an issue in the forums, where you can't message anyone when you're banned, while still being able to read messages.

*There is one exception I can think of, but it isn't a "ban" in the usual sense of a ban. My main account was banned for about an hour at one point simply because it got compromised. However, I had asked the moderators to ban it using an alt account; if this were a "regular" ban, that alt account would have gotten banned too because of ban evasion.

EDIT: If I were to summarize in a few sentences, I'd say this:

The bans from the Discord server are not the problem. The Discord server itself, as it currently works right now, is the problem.

EDIT 2: Bans have been replaced with a jail channel for the most part to allow transfer of patterns in and out of the server. Actual bans are now being used as a last resort for things like harassment and trolling. Not quite perfect but that's a Discord limitation at this point, and we're doing the best we can do to replace the metaphorical lead boxes with glass boxes.
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tommyaweosme
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Re: Discord

Post by tommyaweosme » June 21st, 2024, 7:07 pm

i dont have general access to discord, just adding to the examples

yes
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Re: Discord

Post by haaaaaands » June 22nd, 2024, 7:53 am

i hate discord because someone on discord stole my account and with it my email address.
since then i don't go there.
i'd like to join the server, but i don't trust the site so i don't.
also i like forum ui much more and i can already do in the forum what i could do in the discord so that's a plus :)
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