Thread for basic questions

[get_Snacked]

Neither octohash nor octo3g contains matches for the exact pattern. Should matches for later generations be included or not?

EDIT: one generation later, thanks. what about octo3obj?

[confocaloid]

Neither octohash nor octo3g contains matches for the exact pattern. Should matches for later generations be included or not?

EDIT: one generation later, thanks. what about octo3obj?

I think this is the first generation (of the posted pattern) for which there are some octo3obj matches:

Code: Select all

x = 3275, y = 77, rule = B3/S23
2b2o127b2o61b2o67b2o58b2o67b2ob2o61b2o60b2o63bo60b2o66b2o57bo3b2o55b2o
62b2ob2o67b2o58b2o66b2o62b2o55b2o65b2o62b2o62b2o62b2o63b2o66b2o53b2ob
2o70b2o59b2o55b2o62b2o61b2ob2o3bo55bo4b2o2b3o52bo5b2o58b2o67b2o56b3o5b
2o56bo68b2o55b2o61b2o2b3o58b2o7b3o52b2o7b3o61bo57b2o59bo66b2o65b2o62bo
57bo64bo4bo60b2ob2o$2obo127b2o4b2o55b2o6bo60b2o57bo2bo62b2o2b2ob2o54b
2o5b2o54b2o3bo2bo55b2o4bobo58bo2bo61b2o2b2o56bobo2b2o55b2o62b2ob2o59b
2ob2o2bo2bo57b2o2b2o62b2o54b2o2b2o2b2o54bo2bo64b2o61bo2bo57b2o2b2o62b
2o58b2o3b2o62b2o2b2o53b2ob2o69b2o56b2o2b2o55b2o61bo2bo60b2ob2o3bo55bo
3bo2bobo54bo5b2o57bo2bo59b2o5b2o64b2o55bobo67b2o54bo2bo60b2o62bo2bo2b
3obo53bo2bo2b3obo54b3o5bobo52b2o2b2o58bobo65b2o2b2o61b2o55bo5bobo55bob
o62bobo2bobo59b2ob2o$2o135b2o62bobo119b2o4b2o57b2o61b2o61b2o4b2o56b2o
4bobo59b2o58b2o2b2o60bobo68b2o61b2o54b2ob2o3b2o2b3o57b2o118b2o2b2o59b
2o6b2o121b2o58b2o126b2o67b2o125b2ob2o3bo55b2o64b2ob2o54b2o3bo65bo55bo
4b2o3bo53bo65b2o60b2o128bobo62b3o59b2o126b2o8bo53b2o8bo61bobo52b2o62bo
bo5bo63b2o56b3o59bo5bobo55bobo3b3o56bobo2bobo$2obo197bobo124bo2bo123b
2o128bo64b2o54b2o65bo63b2o4b2o60bo2bo65bo51b2o63b2o130b2o2b2o189b2o58b
2o63b2o189b2ob2o120b2o3b2ob2o59bo67b3o118bo255bo68b2o118b2o200bo62bo
55bo6bo183bo6bo57bo64bo4bo56b3o$2b2o126b2o2b2o60b2o4bo60b2o64b2o123bo
2bo60bo63bo67b2o63b2o59b2o59b2o60bo6b2o2b3o62bo50b2o63b2o4b2o124b2o58b
o62b2o69bo2bo53b2o2b2o63b2o128b2o184b2o67bo61b2o4bo55b2o62bobo59bo4b2o
57b2o3bo59b2ob2o58bo6bo64b2o61bo56b2o5bo65bo191bo62bo61bo65b2o57bo$4b
2o124b2o2b2o60b2o64bo2bo57b2o62b2o2b2o57b2o3b2o60bobo61bobo58b2o70b2o
55bo4b2o120bobo9bo127b2o57b2o57bo125bobo61b2o66bo3b2o54b2o63b2o66b2o
63bo2bo248b2o64b2o5bo53bo2bo61bobo59bo3bo2bob3o52b2o3bo59b2ob2o58bo6bo
56b3o62b2o4bo63bo65bo62b3o54b2ob2o60b3o4bo58b2o58b3o2bobo64b2o56bobo
69b3o$4bobo193b2o56b2o3b2o2b3o53b2o5bo56b2o2b2o57b2o65bobo2b2o57bobo
58b2o6b2o56b2ob2o3bo53bobo69b2o54bobo10bo52b2o60b2o9b2o116bobo62b2o60b
obo5b2o59b2o60bobo123b2o5b2o58bo2bo63b2o59b2o67bo120b2o3b2o121b2o63bo
60bo4b2o2bo59bo122bo6bo63bo56bo2bo3bo58bo4bo65bo119b2ob2o122b2o2b2o63b
obo56b3o63bobo59b2o4b2o2bo120bo$5bo129bo64bobo55b2o7bo61b2o126b3o58bo
2b2o59bo67b2o56b2ob2o57bobo69b2o55bo64b2o60b2o3b2ob2o3bo50b2o2b2o59bob
o62b2o2b2o57bo5bo2bo54bo3b2o2b2o56bobo4bo59b2ob2o60bo2bo53b2o3b2o2b3o
116b2o2b2o2b2o62bobo54bo68b2o258bo118bo71b2o59b2o57b2o6b2o54b2o263b2o
52b2o5b2o61bo67bo56bo60b2o3bo2bo2bo52b3o64bo$134b2o64bo67bo60bobo55bo
69bo65bo129b2o116bo2b2o255b2ob2o54b2o2b2o60bo2b3o62b2o64b2o2b2o50b2o7b
2o57bo4b2o59b2ob2o2b2o57b2o2b3o49b2o7bo56b2o5bo54b2o6b2o55b2ob2o2bobo
53bobo69bo187b2o127b2o57b2o71bobo58bobo64bobo53bobo189bo71b2o60bobo
127b2o123b2o123bo$134bobo249b2o70bo124b2o68bobo118bobo67bo314bo134bobo
49bobo70bobo64b2o62bo61bo55b2o4b2o119b2ob2o3bo54bobo257bobo126bobo56bo
bo70bo127bo246b2o73bo59bo63b2o64bobo56b2o125b3o$386bobo194bobo67bo120b
o68b2o250bo64bo62bo70bo193bo62bo122bobo61b2o119bo258bo128bo506bobo196b
obo122bobo124bo62b3o$583bo259bobo248b2o126b2o514b2o55bo1157bo124bo127b
o61bo$1094bobo125bobo569b2o64b2o1407bo$1794bobo63bobo$1860bo50$136bo
62b3o61b2ob2o61bo63b3o54b2o11b2o50b2o3b2ob2o55b2o64b2o66bo63b2o63bo60b
2o60b3o$135bobo125b2ob2o61bo120b2o7b2ob2o50bo2bo2b2ob2o54bo2bo62bo2bo
64bobo62b2o63bo59bo2bo$135bobo184bo6bo56b2ob2o64b2o2b2o3bo50b2o63b2o
64b2o65bobo54bo72bo60b2o64b2o$136bo58bo126bo8b2o53b2ob2o64b2o130bo126b
o55bo7b2o189bo2bo$130b3o61bobo6b2o53b2o6bo55bo8bobo61b2o190bo54b2o126b
o7b2o54b2o70b3o61b2o$194bobo2b2o2b2o53b2o6bo58bo5bo62b2o125bo57bo7bo
54b2o62b2o126b2o3b2o65bo$136b2ob2o54bo3b2o65bo57bobo64b2o3bo119bo3bobo
55bobo70bo54b2o2b2o61b2o64b2o2b2o62bo64bo$136b2ob2o2b2o59bo53b2o2b2o
60bobo64b2o61b3o59bo3bobo55bobo63bo6bo58b2o2b3o55bo2bo58b2o7b2o53bo4b
2o57b2o7b2o$142b2o59b2o53b2ob2o62bo190bo4bo57bo2b2o59b2o6bo121b2o2b2o
55b2o4bo57bo4b2o57b2o2b2o3bobo$144bo58bobo57bo318bobo58bobo71b3o57bobo
59b2o57bo67b2o$519b2o61bo134bo59bo61bobo$519bobo196bo$519bo!

Same for octo3g:

Code: Select all

x = 1614, y = 19, rule = B3/S23
2b2o224bo84bo88bo101bo97bobo104bo93bo104bobo93bo106bo96bo94bo103bo94bo
99bo9bo$2obo225bo83bobo87b2o100bo3bo93b2o105bo93bo103b2o92bobo106bobo
95bo94bo103b2o93b2o98b2o6bo$2o225b3o83b2o87b2o99b3o2bo94bo104b3o91b3o
104bo93b2o106b2o94b3o92b3o102b2o93b2o98b2o7b3o$2obo403bo100b3o$2b2o
403b2o597bo96bo108bo94bo104bo94bo99bo$4b2o221b2o177bobo94b2o198bo5b2o
92b2o6bo195bo96bo105b2o93b2o103b2o93b2o98b2o$4bobo221b2o272bobo102bo
95b2o4bobo91bobo4b2o91bo101b3o94b3o106b2o93b2o103b2o93b2o98b2o$5bo221b
o276bo103bo93bobo4bo93bo6bobo91bo$302bo303b3o293b3o105bo96bo$303b2o
703b2o95b2o96b2o108b2o$302b2o3bo107b2o592b2o95b2o94bobo108bobo$307b2o
106bobo189b2o294b2o299bo108bo$306bobo106bo191bobo293bobo$607bo295bo2$
1402b3o104b3o$202b2o1200bo104bo$203b2o1198bo106bo$202bo!

Same for octohash:

Code: Select all

x = 1226, y = 13, rule = B3/S23
2b2o62b2o6bo56bo6b2o55bo6b2o55bo4b2o58bo62bo65bo69bo55b2o68b2o63b2o54b
o64b2o62bo64b2o62bo63b2o63b2o64b2o$2obo62bobo4bobo54bobo4bobo54bobo4bo
bo54bobo3bobo56bobo5b2o53bobo62b3o67b3o54bo2bo5b2ob3o50bo5bobo61bo2bo
53b3o61bo2bo60bobo62bobo61bobo62bobo63bo64b2o$2o65bo6bo56bo6bo56bo5b2o
56bo6bo57b2o5bo55b2o4b2o55bo69bo57bobo6bo2bo51bobo6bo2b3o51b2o3bobo57b
o61b2o2b3o56bo2bo61b2o62bo2bo62bo64bobo$2obo262b2o61bobo60bo2bo54b2o5b
2o55b2o4b2o57bo5bobo3bo50bo2bo5b2obo53bo5bo57b2o4b2o59bo59b2o127b2o
129b2o$2b2o62b2o70b2o63b2o118bo5b2o61bo2bo60bo2bo54bobo68b2o56b2o10bo
50bobo68bo2bo59bo253b3o59bo67b2o$4b2o60bobo69bobo62bobo62b3o51b2o69b2o
62b2o2b2o52bobo4b3o181b2o7b2o60bo2bo54b2o128bo128bo60bobo61b2o2b2o$4bo
bo59bo71bo64bo64bo53bobo136bobo52bo5bo192bobo60b2o55bobo61bo63b3o60b2o
2b2o58b2o3bo58bo2bo60bo2bo3bo$5bo263bo125b3o63bo61bo191bo120bo61bobo
61bo63b2ob2o59bobo62b2o61bo2bo$395bo384b3o116b2o2b2o57b2o67bo59bo127b
2o$396bo383bo121b2o253b3o$781bo122bo59b2o191bo$964bobo191bo$964bo!

[get_Snacked]

I think this is the first generation (of the posted pattern) for which there are some octo3obj matches:

Code: Select all

long

Same for octo3g:

Code: Select all

long

Same for octohash:

Code: Select all

long

sad because of this that could've been used for many things:

Code: Select all

x = 12, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
4bobo2b2o$4bo2b2o$4bob2o3bo$b2o3bo$obo4bo2bo$2o6bo!

[confocaloid]

[...] sad because of this that could've been used for many things: [...]

I interpreted the pattern as some kind of intermediate active object while trying a catalysis. If that pattern is supposed to be a synthesis component instead, then maybe Logic Life Search could help to find a good predecessor viewtopic.php?p=192062#p192062

[dvgrn]

sad because of this that could've been used for many things:

Code: Select all

x = 12, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
4bobo2b2o$4bo2b2o$4bob2o3bo$b2o3bo$obo4bo2bo$2o6bo!

Aha, but there are lots of other angles you can tackle that from. For example, here's a likely-looking probably decomposable blob, from just the first of the seven C1 soups for xs28_69ege2sgzx121023cko:

Code: Select all

x = 18, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
7bo3b2o2b3o$6bob3o2bo$7b2obo2bo$7b4ob2o$7bo3bo$7bo3bo$b2o5bobo$obo6bo
$2o$9b2o$9b2o$9b2o2$6b2o$6b2o!

At T=6 that's just

Code: Select all

x = 11, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
9b2o$6b3o$6b2o$b2o$obo5bo$2o5bobo$6b2ob2o$8bo!

and (with luck) the top heptaplet should have some octohash results.

EDIT: This blob (from this soup) might have some potential also:

Code: Select all

x = 11, y = 9, rule = B3/S23
10bo$9bo$6b3o$6b2o2bo$b2o$obo5bo$2o5bobo$6b2ob2o$8bo!

As a side note -- pretty much anyone with a computer should be able to get octo-searches working locally, if they work at it a little bit. Maybe try a post here with the details, if an attempted setup seems like it ought to work but it doesn't.

EDIT2: Ooh, this soup is a good one:

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 13, rule = B3/S23
3bo9b2o$3bo3b2o4b2o$3bo3bobo$8bobo7b2o$9bo7bobo$17b2o2$6b3o$6bobo$5bo
2bo$5bobo$2o3b3o$2o!

Here's another with a different approach:

Code: Select all

x = 11, y = 14, rule = B3/S23
6b2ob2o$6b2obo$6b2o$8bo$o8bo$2ob3o$o2b3o5$2b2o$2bobo$3b2o!

[confocaloid]

[...] As a side note -- pretty much anyone with a computer should be able to get octo-searches working locally, if they work at it a little bit. [...]

Depends what exactly you mean by "pretty much anyone", and what exactly you mean by "work at it a little bit".

(In other words, just how welcoming you are willing to be to new contributors with different backgrounds?)

As a side note, I can imagine an alternate universe where this problem is already solved by now, with a combination of an online service and a local searcher replacing the files and scripts. I think this universe diverged from that possibility at some point near the end of June 2023.

[dvgrn]

As a side note, I can imagine an alternate universe where this problem is already solved by now, with a combination of an online service and a local searcher replacing the files and scripts. I think this universe diverged from that possibility at some point near the end of June 2023.

It's still a very good option, and really I'm sure it's what every user of the octohash databases would ideally like to see. It could perfectly well happen any time.

The existing octo-databases are entirely intended as proofs of concept, showing that it's really quite useful to generate data in this kind of format and have it available for searches. They could be arranged to contain a thousand times as much data, and/or could be set up to return results hundreds of times faster (at least).

I personally haven't had time (or expertise, or resources) to standardize the current three octo-databases, get them online somewhere where searches could be done via a simple GUI, and make the whole thing easily extendable to include additional datasets when they become available. But all of this could perfectly well happen any time. There's no reason it has to be me doing any of it.

Now, what we have already is fairly user-friendly all things considered. It could definitely be better in terms of presentation. Months ago I got a good part of the way through a re-coding of the search script, to get it to present (in LifeHistory red) the location where the searched-for object is found in each octohash collision -- and rewind all the gliders so that the object shows up on the same tick for all collisions -- and orient the red LifeHistory annotations so that they match the orientation being searched for.

Also optionally I'd like to include a "context" pattern to be placed near the target pattern, either just for display purposes, or as a requirement of the search -- i.e., "if these objects are disturbed by the incoming gliders, don't include that collision in the results".

At some point I'll get that coding project done, if nobody beats me to it. Again, in the meantime, I'm happy to try to help anyone who would be interested in getting the current edition of the octohash databases working on their computer.

[get_Snacked]

As a side note -- pretty much anyone with a computer should be able to get octo-searches working locally, if they work at it a little bit.

well,

slightly similar things happened here. i'm on Windows 11, and i tried to use Python 3.12 and put in the path for the dll, but it just requested me the library's location again, which means that it didn't work. then i proceeded to cancel and then try to run searchRules-matchPatt2.py, but it said that it couldn't find the command py_initialize. i then tried to use Python 3.11, but the same thing happened where i would plug the path in and it wouldn't work.

EDIT: my version of Golly is 4.2.

(assuming this is a Golly script)

[dvgrn]

EDIT: my version of Golly is 4.2.

(assuming this is a Golly script)

Yup, it's a Golly script! One way to do a useful re-work would be to port everything to Lua, but that's non-trivial because it's not clear that the functions needed in 'hashlib' will produce the exact same results in a Lua package like this one. One way around that possible problem would be to rebuild all of the databases in Lua from the ground up.

That wouldn't be difficult, just time-consuming -- so if someone wants to work on a Lua equivalent lookup script that will work without a Python install, I can help with that ... it just won't get to the top of my priority list unless someone else is interested.

Meanwhile, it's actually fairly rare that someone can't get Python working if they make a fresh start, get rid of existing Python installs and carefully run through a new install following the instructions here. There have been a few cases where things still mysteriously don't work, but usually it's because someone can't uninstall existing versions of Python (or doesn't want to).

The problem that I've run into is that the helpful folks at Microsoft seem to be encouraging the installation of complicated new versions of Python that hide their DLLs so thoroughly that I can't find them, and instead have ugly mysterious things called "execution aliases" or "App execution reparse points". So far, versions of Python installed from the Microsoft Store all seem to end up with no accessible DLLs -- so it's pretty important to follow the exact instructions linked above.

When you tried this before, were you able to find an actual DLL file with the name you expected to find, in some specific folder on your hard drive? Sometimes people just type in a path and a DLL name that they think is right, but there's no file actually written to that location, and then of course there's no way Golly is going to find anything there.

[WhiteHawk]

How many periods between 14 (minimum glider spacing time) and 64 (Snark64) are known to support oscillators which use a Chucklebait honey farm catalysis?

Also, unrelated OCA question: What are some of the best replacements for Pentadecathalon in B38/S23 (especially the PD's front sparks, but support for the side spark is also welcome)? Looking for alternate supports for P45 life guns and oscillator tech that fails as a result.

EDIT: Actually it seems that there isn't any p45 gun which can be supplemented in Pedestrian Life since all the ones I know of have points where B8 would ruin the reaction. Still a good p15 PD replacement would be good to have in B38/S23

[confocaloid]

How many periods between 14 (minimum glider spacing time) and 64 (Snark64) are known to support oscillators which use a Chucklebait honey farm catalysis?
[...]

It is not immediately obvious why it would be impossible to have a p13 oscillator (or a lower period) involving a chucklebait catalysis. There might be known examples already.

[WhiteHawk]

It is not immediately obvious why it would be impossible to have a p13 oscillator (or a lower period) involving a chucklebait catalysis. There might be known examples already.

Okay, how many periods between 2 and 64 (Snark64) are known to support oscillators which use a Chucklebait honey farm catalysis?

[hotdogPi]

Within a few days of discovery: 24, 34, 36, 43, 52, 59, and 60. I haven't kept track of later ones, but going through everything on the honey farm hasslers page (and shuttle page and period-specific subpages) should get everything except for situations where both chucklebait and something else work, and the wiki chose the other form.

[get_Snacked]

When you tried this before, were you able to find an actual DLL file with the name you expected to find, in some specific folder on your hard drive? Sometimes people just type in a path and a DLL name that they think is right, but there's no file actually written to that location, and then of course there's no way Golly is going to find anything there.

i just searched for "python312.dll" on This PC, and like, five different python312.dll's showed up, of which the rest were just searches, so i picked the first one.

[dvgrn]

i just searched for "python312.dll" on This PC, and like, five different python312.dll's showed up, of which the rest were just searches, so i picked the first one.

That sounds exactly right as far as it goes -- but something went wrong -- and I can't see what went wrong from a general description like this.

What might work would be screenshots of what you see when you uninstall Python 3.12, and re-install Python via download from python.org, following the checklist in this post. Collect images of the error messages that you see and the contents of the folder containing the Python DLL after you reinstall -- and document the exact text that you paste into the Golly dialog when it requests a DLL name and location (if that pop-up still comes up).

This isn't really a basic question any more, so either send me those details in a private message (though that's tricky since PMs don't support images) or post any problems you run into in the thread linked above.

[Haycat2009]

Do conduit loops with C4 symmetry, like R133 loop count as loopable statored RROs? They fit the loopability and R, R and O crition.

[wirehead]

Do conduit loops with C4 symmetry, like R133 loop count as loopable statored RROs? They fit the loopability and R, R and O crition.

Well since the first R stands for "reflectorless" I think they would not count, since the conduit functions as a reflector for the signal traveling around the loop.

[confocaloid]

Do conduit loops with C4 symmetry, like R133 loop count as loopable statored RROs? They fit the loopability and R, R and O crition.

Well since the first R stands for "reflectorless" I think they would not count, since the conduit functions as a reflector [...]

Reflectors reflect spaceships. A property of a spaceship is that it has a specific direction of movement that is a straight line. A reflector changes the direction of movement of a spaceship.

Active objects that can move through conduits (e.g. Herschels) don't themselves have any specific direction of movement. Their movement is determined by the catalyses and other interactions with conduits. Conduits like Fx77, R64, L112, etc. aren't reflectors in any useful sense.

Regarding the asked question, I don't see need for the added obscurity (i.e. "loopable statored RRO"). Why not write instead "a rotating oscillator with a nonempty stator", or "Herschel loop", or whatever happens to be a good human-readable description of the pattern in question?

[dvgrn]

Do conduit loops with C4 symmetry, like R133 loop count as loopable statored RROs? They fit the loopability and R, R and O crition.

No. In practice, the "RRO" label just plain doesn't get applied to oscillators with stators. "RRO" is reserved for moving oscillators that don't need any external support -- and not even all of those, only an even rarer subset of them, thanks to the additional constraint in the definition.

There's now some wording in the RRO article that applies here: symmetrical conduit loops 'fit the description "reflectorless rotating oscillator" but not the above technical definition of an RRO." The additional constraint in the first paragraph definitely isn't met -- at least, not now that I've just substituted the word "arrange" for the word "combine"! I can see how the "combine" wording might bring up the idea of rotating a symmetric conduit and overlapping the stators to make a new oscillator.

[WhiteHawk]

Reiterating an older question, and asking a new one:

New: how many oscillators are known to have between 11-29 cells in minimum phase (29 being smallest set of infinite oscillators), and how close are we to cataloging them all? I would presume this set is ginormous since it grows exponentially after a bit.

[hotdogPi]

I do know that there are exactly 183 oscillators with 160 cells or fewer

I assume this is a typo for 16 cells, given your wiki edit.

We have no idea if we have all the 11-16 cell oscillators or not. The database is what's currently known and isn't exhaustive. It was also updated almost a decade ago, so Rob's p16 (21 cells) is missing.

[confocaloid]

Okay, how many periods between 2 and 64 (Snark64) are known to support oscillators which use a Chucklebait honey farm catalysis?

Reiterating an older question, and asking a new one:

Old: How many periods between 2 and 64 (Snark64) are known to support oscillators which use a Chucklebait honey farm catalysis?
[...]

In many cases it is unnecessary to repeat/reiterate the same "basic question", especially when "old" actually means just a few days ago. Nobody answered the question doesn't mean nobody noticed the question.

In this case, there is even already an answer in a post immediately after your "older question", providing an idea of how you could find out more yourself:

Within a few days of discovery: 24, 34, 36, 43, 52, 59, and 60. I haven't kept track of later ones, but going through everything on the honey farm hasslers page (and shuttle page and period-specific subpages) should get everything except for situations where both chucklebait and something else work, and the wiki chose the other form.

[WhiteHawk]

In this case, there is even already an answer in a post immediately after your "older question", providing an idea of how you could find out more yourself:

Sorry. I didn't see that.

Edited my old post for correctness.

[Haycat2009]

What symmetries does the 3d range-1 cube neighbourhood have, other than those in the square neighbourhood?

And on a side note, RFOs with loopability 2 are possible-think a rectangular track or envelope.

[confocaloid]

[...]
And on a side note, RFOs with loopability 2 are possible-think a rectangular track or envelope.

A flipping oscillator with even loopability is impossible, assuming the rules are isotropic.
The impossibility is because otherwise there would be two mirror images of the same reaction at the same time, which will necessarily remain mirror images of each other as they evolve (because the rules are isotropic), and either will never exchange with each other (contradicting the part "flipping") or will collide with each other (contradicting the part "even loopability").

A statorless flipping oscillator with an odd loopability >= 3 should be possible, but there are no known elementary examples.