Thread for basic questions

[Pyry Virtanen]

Hi, I'm pretty new here and would like to know what is the easiest way of investigating soups from Catagolue's database with just a smartphone. Specifically I'm interested in "messless methuselahs" or diehard soups. My plan is to look through a bunch of them and hopefully find some small, long living diehards with small bounding boxes. Any help would be appreciated. I think one way could be to copy the soup's RLE to the clipboard and then somehow make LifeViewer run that soup, but I don't know how to make LifeViewer accept RLEs. I hope this is the right place to ask this question. Thanks in advance

Edit: I downloaded Golly and now everything is working. Thanks for the reply.

[toroidalet]

You can use [code][/code] tags (you don't need to manually type them; press the button with the </>) to display patterns in LifeViewer (you can use the preview button to look at it without posting anything), or you can download mobile Golly from the link at the top of the forum page.

[Pyry Virtanen]

Does anyone know if there is a database or a collection for small diehards available online? By 'small' I mean patterns with initial population at most 20 or so and a bounding box at most 10x10 or so. Preferably with long lifespans. I have been trying to find patterns like these from Catagolue soups (mostly C1) with some success, but it seems to be tough to find diehards with these size limits and a lifespan of more than 200. The best one I have found so far is a 889-tick diehard that has 18 cells and a 8x9 bounding box, which I posted yesterday in the Unsure Discoveries thread. Can someone find a better one?

I feel that LifeWiki could have more information about diehards. It already has numerous articles about various methuselahs like the R-pentomino, Acorn, Bunnies, Lidka etc. but only a single article for diehards. Just a thought.

[dvgrn]

Does anyone know if there is a database or a collection for small diehards available online? By 'small' I mean patterns with initial population at most 20 or so and a bounding box at most 10x10 or so. Preferably with long lifespans. I have been trying to find patterns like these from Catagolue soups (mostly C1) with some success, but it seems to be tough to find diehards with these size limits and a lifespan of more than 200. The best one I have found so far is a 889-tick diehard that has 18 cells and a 8x9 bounding box, which I posted yesterday in the Unsure Discoveries thread. Can someone find a better one?

Of 13263 octohash results that produce a domino spark (which of course will all be diehards) I think 11 of them last longer than 200 ticks. The longest-running ones are these 229-tick diehards at 10x7 and 11x8:

Code: Select all

x = 11, y = 47, rule = B3/S23
2o6b2o$obo5b2o$b2o2$bo$2o$obo33$10bo$2o6b3o$obo4bo$b2o4b2o2$bo$2o$obo!
#C [[ ZOOM 4 ]]

The octo3obj database has 58454 collisions that end with a domino spark, of which the four longest-lasting make it past 300 ticks. They're a little over 10x10, but I think they could be reduced in population to 20 cells or less, and the bounding box could probably be shrunk a bit also with various tricks:

Code: Select all

x = 65, y = 60, rule = B3/S23
5b2o53b2o$b2o2b2o47b2o3bo2bo$b2o51b2o4b2o2$9bo$8bobo42b2o4bo$8bobo42b
2o3bobo$bo7bo48bobo2b2o$obo56bo2b2o$obo61bo$bo2b3o$4bo$5bo35$54b2o2b2o
$7bo46b2o2b2o$2o4bobo$2o4bobo$7bo2$3b2o57b2o$3b2o2b2o49b2o2b2o$7b2o49b
2o$63bo$9bo52b2o$8b2o52bobo$8bobo!
#C [[ ZOOM 4 ]]

The two right-hand ones converge to the classic diehard TL+block; the two left ones seem to finish up with two different pi+something mutual annihilations (pi+block and pi+beehive).

Of course there are huge piles of other diehards hiding in the octohash and octo3obj databases, with different final sparks -- this is just a search to give a sense of how many of these things are out there. A custom search script generating random 10x10 soups would keep finding more new 300+-tick diehards for as long as you wanted to keep searching for them.

It's not clear how often a new record will be set inside these limits, though! I would suspect that the sequence of new record-holders after your 889-tick diehard will be ... a fairly short sequence.

[HotWheels9232]

Smallest(please population) p40 rake?

[Wyirm]

Are there any one glider seeds of themselves which output gliders? In other words, a "stable" crawler.

[hotdogPi]

Are there any one glider seeds of themselves which output gliders? In other words, a "stable" crawler.

Half-bakery.

Code: Select all

x = 11, y = 13, rule = B3/S23
9bo$8bo$8b3o4$4b2o$3bo2bo$3bobo$b2obo$o2bo$obo$bo!

[Wyirm]

I forgot about the hbk and its variants, Thank you!

[dvgrn]

I forgot about the hbk and its variants, Thank you!

There's one other known "stable seed of itself which outputs gliders", but it's a flipper rather than a crawler. It can be constructed by hitting a half-blockade with a glider --

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o3b2o$6b2o3$5b2o$5b2o!

and it's activated like this:

Code: Select all

x = 80, y = 78, rule = B3/S23
78bo$77bo$77b3o67$2o5b2o$2o5b2o5$2o7b3o$2o7bo$10bo!

It's always possible that there's another small "crawler" constellation out there; exhaustive surveys haven't even been done for constellations of three common objects, as far as I know.

The inevitable existence of such things comes up as a topic here on the forums every few years; here's one such thread that discusses how to engineer a very large constellation of this type.

[AlbertArmStain]

Does someone know were to find slow-salvos for this wild bunch:

Code: Select all

x = 292, y = 82, rule = LifeHistory
238.A11.4B$51.2A185.3A8.4B$49.2B2AB187.A6.4B$31.A17.4B187.2A5.4B5.B$19.
A11.3A15.6B22.4B10.A34.4B110.4B2.4B5.3B$17.3A14.A15.5B23.4B7.3A33.4B113.
2B.4B5.4B$.A14.A16.2A15.6B23.4B5.A21.B13.4B113.7B5.4B$.3A12.2A15.4B13.
7B23.4B4.2A19.3B11.4B114.6B5.4B22.A$4.A7.2B.3B3.7B.B5.3B12.6B17.2A6.9B
17.6B8.5B115.5B5.4B23.3A$3.2A6.5B5.13B.4B10.7B18.A7.6B13.4B2.7B3.8B32.
2A11.A16.4B4.B35.A7.8B3.4B27.A$3.5B2.36B4.6B18.A.2A5.6B3.B2.2B2.26B31.
B2AB9.A.A16.4B2.3B34.3A5.9B.4B27.2A9.B$5.42B2.7B19.A2.A4.43B31.3B9.A.
A17.9B5.2A29.A3.15B27.4B6.2B$4.2A41B2.7B20.2AB3.44B.3B26.B.B9.2A.3A2.
2A12.9B4.A29.2A.17B.2B26.B2A4.3B$4.2A17B2A22B.9B20.14B2A13B2A22B26.5B
8.B4.A2.A13.8B.BA.A29.22B2A21.2B.BA.A3.4B$5.B.16B2A32B21.13B2A13B2A21B
2A25.6B6.2AB3A3.A.AB2.4B3.9B.B2A32.18B.B2A18.2A4B.2A3.4B$7.23B3.2B2.20B
4.B17.48B.B2A25.8B4.2A.A6.2AB2.5B2.11B10.B22.20B.B8.2A5.B.2B2A7B2.4B$
8.9B2.10B11.19B.B2A16.17B.B5.23B3.B27.13B10.8B2.11B9.2B21.B.18B12.A4.
13B2.4B$9.8B3.6B16.19B2A17.15B10.B2.18B29.13B12.21B8.3B20.20B13.A.A15B
.4B$10.7B4.3B19.17B.B18.15B13.17B29.15B12.19B8.4B20.20B14.2A19B$7.11B
3.B20.17B22.13B14.16B30.15B10.B2.19B6.4B22.18B17.18B$6.12B2.2A20.17B24.
13B12.6B2.9B.B26.17B.B5.26B3.4B22.11B2A5B18.18B.B$6.12B2.A19.2AB.15B23.
8B4.2A.A11.5B3.10BA25.51B.4B22.12B2A5B18.17B.B2A$6.11B4.3A15.A.AB4.12B
23.6B6.2AB3A9.4B5.6B.BA.A23.13B2A13B2A21B.4B22.19B19.19B2A$6.8B.4B4.A
15.A9.11B22.5B8.B4.A17.6B2.BA23.14B2A13B2A25B23.18B20.17B.2B$6.7B4.2A
19.2A8.13B21.B.B9.2A.3A18.6B26.2AB3.50B24.17B22.16B$6.7B4.A30.12B23.3B
9.A.A16.A.2AB.4B25.A2.A4.48B24.18B23.2B.7B.4B$6.6B6.3A28.10B23.B2AB9.
A.A14.3AB2AB.3B25.A.2A5.6B3.B2.2B2.33B24.16B28.5B3.4B$5.7B8.A29.9B24.
2A11.A14.A4.B4.4B23.A7.6B13.4B2.7B2.16B23.16B29.4B5.4B$4.8B38.9B53.3A
.2A5.2A22.2A6.9B17.6B3.16B20.AB.15B29.5B6.4B$3.8B39.9B55.A.A6.A30.4B4.
2A19.3B5.14B20.A.A16B28.5B8.4B$2.9B40.5B58.A.A7.3A26.4B5.A21.B4.3B.9B
24.A2B.13B28.4B11.4B$.4B.6B39.4B60.A10.A25.4B7.3A23.2A3.8B25.B3.11B28.
4B13.4B$4B.7B39.4B96.4B10.A24.A6.4B34.7B$3B2.6B15.2A22.4B96.4B33.3A5.
4B32.2B.8B$2B3.8B4.B8.A22.4B96.4B34.A7.2A33.2A3B2A5B$B5.B2A6B.4B3.BA.
A21.4B96.4B44.A33.2A3B2A5B$5.2B2A13B.B2A21.4B96.4B42.3A35.B.9B$6.18B22.
4B96.4B43.A40.9B$7.17B21.4B96.4B87.3B.B2A.A$10.13B21.4B96.4B86.5B.B2A
B3A$9.12B22.4B96.4B87.2A6.B4.A$9.10B23.4B96.4B89.A5.2A.3A$8.11B22.4B96.
4B87.3A7.A.A$8.7B.2B22.4B96.4B88.A9.A.A$7.11B21.4B96.4B100.A$8.11B19.
4B97.3B$8.11B18.4B98.2B$8.11B17.4B99.B$6.2AB2.8B16.4B$5.A.AB3.7B15.4B
$5.A6.7B14.4B$4.2A7.6B13.4B$13.7B11.4B$13.8B9.4B$14.8B7.4B$14.9B5.4B$
13.6B.4B3.4B$13.7B.4B.4B$14.6B2.7B$14.6B3.5B$14.2B2AB4.5B$13.3B2A2B2.
6B$13.7B.4B2.B2A$14.5B.4B3.BA.A$14.9B7.A$14.8B8.2A$14.7B$5.2A7.6B$6.A
7.7B5.2A$6.A.AB3.7B6.A$7.2AB.11B.BA.A$9.10BA2B.B2A$8.10BABA3B$9.9BABA
3B$7.2AB.8BA2B$6.A.AB2.8B$6.A4.4B2.3B$5.2A3.4B3.5B$9.4B6.B2A$8.4B8.A$
7.4B10.3A$23.A!

[dvgrn]

Does someone know were to find slow-salvos for this wild bunch...

I believe slsparse should be able to compile slow-salvo recipes for all of those with no trouble.

[Book]

I'm looking for a good definition of stabilize/stabilization. The term is used all over the place, we all know what we mean by it, but I have not come across a well-thought-out definition.

[GUYTU6J]

I'm looking for a good definition of stabilize/stabilization. The term is used all over the place, we all know what we mean by it, but I have not come across a well-thought-out definition.

In my words: to stabilize a pattern P is to interact it with one or more patterns, stabilization/stabilizer S, so that after converging to a <s>periodic</s> predictable pattern P' a specific trait T1 is preserved and another trait T2 that defies T1 is removed.

Examples:

P = pre-block, S = another pre-block, T1 = S2 survival on all three cells, T2 = birth on corner that causes S3 survival instead, P' = aircraft carrier (period 1)
P = queen bee, S = two blocks, T1 = reappearing flipped after 15 generations, T2 = laying a beehive that causes it not reappearing after another 15 generations, P' = queen bee shuttle (period 15)
P = 7WSS, S = two LWSS, T1 = reappearing flipped and shifted after 2 generations, T2 = laying a blinker (egg) that causes it not reappearing intact, P' = xq4_6ruc0sur6x6ruczy1377 (period 4, speed c/2 orthogonal)
P = switch engine, S = a block, T1 = reappearing flipped and shifted after 48 generations. T2 = producing exhaust that causes it not reappearing after 24×48 generations, P' = BLSE (period 288, speed c/12 diagonal) or GPSE (period 384, speed c/12 diagonal)
P = the white block and the green Herschel, S = the three yellow blocks, T1 = a new Herschel appearing at the red location after 64 generations and the white block being restored, T2 = white block being consumed and leaving a mess, P' = R64 Herschel conduit (Note: this is why the term "periodic" is replaced with "predictable" above)

Code: Select all

x = 22, y = 25, rule = LifeHistory
9.2E$9.2E5.2E$16.2E3$14.2C$14.2C$20.2E$20.2E4$A$A.A$3A$2.A7$12.3D$12.
D$11.2D!

(Also, deja vu strikes on me as I am composing this post)

[dvgrn]

In my words: to stabilize a pattern P is to interact it with one or more patterns, stabilization/stabilizer S, so that after converging to a <s>periodic</s> predictable pattern P' a specific trait T1 is preserved and another trait T2 that defies T1 is removed...

That's one meaning of stabilize -- the "engineering" meaning, applied to moving or oscillating patterns.

There's also the very common "stabilizes at time T", which usually means "settles into stationary ash plus optional spaceships escaping to infinity on non-interacting paths" ... but occasionally means "evolves to a configuration where all future stages of the pattern can be predicted accurately without evolving the pattern any further."

[Coban]

How are new oscillators usually found?
Is it mainly by manual exploration and exhaustive search with apgsearch ?
Or are there dedicated tools ?

(was not sure if it's a question for here or the oscillator thread)

[dvgrn]

How are new oscillators usually found?
Is it mainly by manual exploration and exhaustive search with apgsearch ?
Or are there dedicated tools ?

(was not sure if it's a question for here or the oscillator thread)

New oscillators show up occasionally on Catagolue, but they're pretty rare -- apgsearching doesn't account for the flood of new discoveries recently.

There are now several dedicated tools, some of which are variants of others, like symmetric CatForce and various versions of hotdogPi's spark search script.

Looks like you joined the ConwayLife Lounge Discord server today. That's where a lot of the plotting and planning and custom adjusting of search scripts tends to go on these days (in the #tools channel, mostly, I think, with results reported in #cgol).

[Coban]

There are now several dedicated tools, some of which are variants of others, like symmetric CatForce and various versions of hotdogPi's spark search script.

Looks like you joined the ConwayLife Lounge Discord server today. That's where a lot of the plotting and planning and custom adjusting of search scripts tends to go on these days (in the #tools channel, mostly, I think, with results reported in #cgol).

Thanks ! I will check that

[Book]

Anyone have an rle for the boat cis-line tub induction coil?

[hotdogPi]

Anyone have an rle for the boat cis-line tub induction coil?

This is the only thing it could be.

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
2b3o$bo3bo$obobobo$bo3b2o!

[Book]

Anyone have an rle for the boat cis-line tub induction coil?

This is the only thing it could be.

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
2b3o$bo3bo$obobobo$bo3b2o!

Thanks. How about boat cis-line hook?

[hotdogPi]

Code: Select all

x = 6, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
2b3o$bo3bo$obobo$b2ob2o!

[confocaloid]

I'm looking for a good definition of stabilize/stabilization. The term is used all over the place, we all know what we mean by it, but I have not come across a well-thought-out definition.

In my words: to stabilize a pattern P is to interact it with one or more patterns, stabilization/stabilizer S, so that after converging to a <s>periodic</s> predictable pattern P' a specific trait T1 is preserved and another trait T2 that defies T1 is removed...

That's one meaning of stabilize -- the "engineering" meaning, applied to moving or oscillating patterns.

There's also the very common "stabilizes at time T", which usually means "settles into stationary ash plus optional spaceships escaping to infinity on non-interacting paths" ... but occasionally means "evolves to a configuration where all future stages of the pattern can be predicted accurately without evolving the pattern any further."

These words have multiple different commonly used meanings, as already explained by other people.

• The "settles into stationary ash plus optional spaceships escaping to infinity on non-interacting paths" meaning is discussed in CGoLM&C 1.6 Methuselahs and Stability. In particular, there is a footnote there, saying

We will see shortly that properly defining what it means for a pattern to "stabilize" is very troublesome, but for now it just means that the pattern has broken down into non-interacting still lifes, oscillators, and spaceships.

and later there is a discussion of some troubles with trying to define "stabilized" regorously.

• The "evolves to a configuration where all future stages of the pattern can be predicted accurately without evolving the pattern any further." meaning is also discussed in CGoLM&C 1.6 later, with the example of block-laying switch engine.
• For the different meaning of "stabilize" as applied to unstable patterns stabilized by other patterns, you can find examples in the book. For one example, CGOLM&C 1.3 The Queen Bee has examples of use of words "stabilized"/"stabilize"/"stabilizing" with this meaning, starting from text "The queen bee can also be stabilized by some objects other than blocks..."
• Yet another meaning of "stable" appears in "stable reflector", "stable conduit", "stable pattern", meaning that the thing in question is composed of still lifes, i.e. it is p1.

Please reconsider
Some notes about what I consider important. If you want to write a single wiki page that covers all meanings, then I think that page cannot be an article discussing a single specific "thing"; the only way to cover all meanings in a single page is to make it a glossary page disambiguating between different meanings and providing explanations and examples for each meaning.

Also, based on this and this, you seem to think that "stable" used as a synonym for "still life" is somehow obsolete or can be superseded. Quoting from your draft:

All italicized text is comment and would be removed from a published article. Bold text denotes a relevant terms defined in context and would be redirects to this page.

Stability is the state of a pattern in which all future generations can be predicted accurately without evolving the pattern any further, and the pattern does not die. This includes patterns which evolve to stationary ash and optional spaceships escaping to infinity on non-interacting paths. Such a pattern is said to be stable. This supersedes the notion that stable=still life.

I think that is not the case, and "stable" used to mean "is a still life or composed of still lifes" is commonly used and cannot be "superseded". I would like to state that I oppose redirecting "stable" to "stability" if the latter is made into an article. Even though "This supersedes the notion that stable=still life." in your draft is italicized (and would not be a part of the article), it is still your assumption, and I think that assumption is incorrect. Please reconsider your attempts to redefine "stable".

[dl-rs]

Is there any real usages of cellar automata? My mom wants to write something to a magazine to like add some glory.

[w33z8kqrqk8zzzw33]

Is there any real usages of cellar automata? My mom wants to write something to a magazine to like add some glory.

Ilkka To(with two dots)rma and Ville Salo once gave (on Discord) an exhibition of some of the math-y applications of cellular automata. In particular, under a certain sense, cellular automata are precisely the maps which are “continuous” (in a topological sense) (see also Cellular automaton); and the set of reversible cellular automata is called the automorphism group of the underlying space.

Outside of that, CA are primarily used for simulation, modeling and such (e.g. sand piles, traffic). They can also generate some fractals (such as the dot replicator in B1e/S04e). You may want to go along the lines of that.

[toroidalet]

Many mathematical models (for example, the spread of diseases) often use a regular grid or graph with discrete cells and states as a simplifying assumption, though there are some differences, such as randomness and the use of numbers rather than states (though some do use states or states and numbers). There are not many with purely discrete states, however.
It also is possible to create art using certain rules, but this isn't done too often (see this thread). On the other hand, it does seem as though most CA art could easily be done without it.