CGOL patterns as NFTs

For general discussion about Conway's Game of Life.
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pcallahan
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by pcallahan » October 7th, 2021, 5:10 pm

This whole discussion has left me oddly emboldened to think that CGoL tchotchkes and jewelry might be a viable Etsy business. Most of the laser cuts I've been doing are prohibitively expensive (and labor intensive, just in terms of peeling protective paper off the acrylic pieces). (shameless plug: this thread) On the other hand when I look at these laser cut walnut hardwood earrings what I see is the potential for glider earrings in place of that design. Or for this example on acrylic why not a charm bracelet composed of small still life patterns? How about a set of the three pulsar phases done as drink coasters?

If I sound facetious, I'm not. I'd work on this in a heartbeat if I thought I could find enough buyers to break even or close. I'm tempted to make some Inkscape files just to price them if not order them. There may even be a "nerd chic" market out there, and I could design really high-quality pieces (or at least with a little help from a graphic artist) that I'd be proud of.

This makes sense to me though I suspect many would say I've gone off the deep-end. But NFTs do not make sense to me at all.

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dvgrn
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by dvgrn » October 7th, 2021, 5:33 pm

pcallahan wrote:
October 7th, 2021, 5:10 pm
If I sound facetious, I'm not. I'd work on this in a heartbeat if I thought I could find enough buyers to break even or close. I'm tempted to make some Inkscape files just to price them if not order them. There may even be a "nerd chic" market out there, and I could design really high-quality pieces (or at least with a little help from a graphic artist) that I'd be proud of.
It'd never work -- gliders are never polyominoes like that, and polyplets will fall apart. (I am being facetious.)

The connected phase of *WSSes, though -- a three-pair set in different colors, maybe -- would be a great way to find other Lifenthusiasts in a crowd, if nothing else. "Wait, is that an MWSS?" would be an interesting way to find somebody to talk to at a cocktail party.. But I suppose you might have to be prepared to wait years for the first glimmer of recognition, unless you go to a lot more cocktail parties than I do.

I've thought about putting up an Etsy page for custom-made Life patterns for $5 or $11.03 or something, like a glider synthesis for "Happy Graduation, Tony Honcho Jarnow!" or whatever anyone wanted spelled out in whatever font. I've already written scripts to avoid all the hard synchronization work for that kind of thing. But I've never been sure that I wanted to spend time on that, even if against all odds it was somewhat successful... so I haven't gotten around to it yet.

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pcallahan
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by pcallahan » October 7th, 2021, 5:43 pm

dvgrn wrote:
October 7th, 2021, 5:33 pm
It'd never work -- gliders are never polyominoes like that, and polyplets will fall apart. (I am being facetious.)
Thoughts about disconnected cells had entered my mind now that you mention it. Those walnut hardwood earrings give me some ideas, like instead of simple cells use squares with thick boundaries and a hole in the middle. For other patterns, the Life cells could be holes in a more solid construction. Lots of ideas (customers though?).

Update: And I almost forgot, but the only pop culture icon I can think of who appreciates CGoL is Brian Eno. He gave an extended interview about it at least once. His star power isn't quite up there with Katy Perry (which is unfair) but he's well-respected and influential. Maybe if we could produce a collaboration with him on some new generative music (and convince him to share the profits) we could fund our activities that way.

Unlike the earrings idea, I am at least half facetious here, but it would certainly be cool if it happened.

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Moosey
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by Moosey » October 7th, 2021, 11:15 pm

Making patterns the intellectual property of specific people would slow down progress and sink the community in a quagmire of bureaucracy, I have no clue why that would possibly be desirable.
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dani
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Re: CGOL patterns as Copyrightable Work

Post by dani » October 8th, 2021, 1:11 am

Since this thread has derailed severely, are we even sure that CGoL patterns reasonably could be copyrighted? I think this might be impossible, for the following reasons.

I am assuming that predecessors of objects you have created would be licensed under copyright. This would prevent someone from, say, flipping a bit in a block and saying it's an entirely new pattern, defeating the purpose of the license.

Thus, here I have "constructed" a pattern that only creates a Simkin glider gun if a Fermat prime exists greater than 65537. You can prove this to be true yourself by erasing all of the tubs on the bottom left:

Code: Select all

#C This pattern is a combination of those built by Jason Summers (Fermat prime calculator) and Extrementhusiast (SGG seed).
#C Michael Simkin has only contributed to this pattern if someone manages to prove the conjecture listed above.
#C The only trivial parts that are my doing are a block, a snake, and the composition of these patterns.
x = 838, y = 736, rule = B3/S23
46b3o12b3o$46bo2bo10bo2bo$46bo16bo$46bo3bo8bo3bo$46bo6b4o6bo$47bobobo
2b2o2bobobo$51bo6bo$51bo6bo$50bob2o2b2obo$50bo3b2o3bo$51bo6bo$51b2o4b
2o$54b2o$49bo3bo2bo3bo$53bo2bo$50b4o2b4o$52b2o2b2o$53b4o$52bo4bo2$52bo
b2obo$51bo6bo$51bo6bo$53b4o$49b2obob2obob2o$48bo2b2ob2ob2o2bo$47b2o2b
8o2b2o$47bo3bo2b2o2bo3bo$46b2o5bo2bo5b2o$46b2o3b3o2b3o3b2o$47bo2b2obo
2bob2o2bo$48b2obob4obob2o$53bo2bo$48bo12bo82b3o15b3o$48bo4bo2bo4bo81bo
3bo13bo3bo$50b2o6b2o82b2o4bo11bo4b2o$44bo5b3o4b3o81bobob2ob2o3b3o3b2ob
2obobo$43b3o8b2o84b2obo4bob2ob3ob2obo4bob2o$43bob2o4bobo2bobo75bo4bo4b
o3bo4bobo4bo3bo4bo$44b3o2bob2o4b2obo69b2ob3o15bo5bo$39b3o2b3o2bo10bo
67b2obo3b2o2b2o7b2o9b2o7b2o$38bo2bo4bo77b5o4bo2b2o$41bo9bo6bo61b2ob2ob
obobo5bo2bo$41bo4b3o4b4o7b3o15b3o33b2obo3bo3bo8bo$38bobo4b3o15bo3bo13b
o3bo28b5o4bo$45b3o14b2o4bo11bo4b2o23b2ob2obobobo3bo$48bo5b2o5bobob2ob
2o3b3o3b2ob2obobo20b2obo3bo3bo$48b2o3bo2bo3b2obo4bob2ob3ob2obo4bob2o
15b5o4bo$45bo2bo5b2o3bo4bo3bo4bobo4bo3bo4bo4bo5b2ob2obobobo3bo$48bo22b
o5bo15b3o2b2obo3bo3bo$44bo3bo5b2o3b2o7b2o9b2o7b2o2b3ob3o4bo$44bo3bo4bo
2bo34b2o5bobo3bo$48bo5b2o33bo2bo6bo$45bobo42bo$54b2o52bo13bo$53bo2bo
50b3o11b3o$54b2o51bob2o4bo5bob2o14bo13bo$108b3o3b3o5b3o13b3o11b3o$54b
2o52b2o3b2o2bo4b2o13b2obo5bo4b2obo$53bo2bo58b3o19b3o5b3o3b3o$54b2o82b
2o4bo2b2o3b2o$144b3o$54b2o$53bo2bo64b3o$54b2o64bo2bo$123bo14b3o$54b2o
67bo14bo2bo$53bo2bo63bobo15bo$54b2o56b2o24bo$112b2o25bobo$54b2o92b2o$
53bo2bo49bo41b2o$54b2o49b3o7bo$104b2obo5b2ob2o37bo$54b2o48b3o6b2ob2o
28bo7b3o$53bo2bo48b2o6b2ob2o26b2ob2o5bob2o$54b2o59b2o4bo5bo16b2ob2o6b
3o$120b3o3b3o15b2ob2o6b2o$54b2o63b2obo3bob2o4bo5bo4b2o$53bo2bo62b3o5b
3o3b3o3b3o$54b2o64b2o5b2o3b2obo3bob2o$132b3o5b3o$54b2o57b2o9bo8b2o5b2o
$53bo2bo57b2o7b3o$54b2o57bo8bo3bo10bo9b2o$122bo3bo9b3o7b2o$54b2o33b3o
11b3o29bo3bo8bo$53bo2bo31bo2bo10bo2bo12b2o2bo3bo8bo3bo$54b2o35bo4b3o6b
o13b2obo3bo29b3o11b3o$91bo4bo2bo5bo12bo3b2ob2o8bo3bo2b2o12bo2bo10bo2bo
$54b2o32bobo4bo3bo2bobo18bobo9bo3bob2o13bo6b3o4bo$53bo2bo38bobob2o23bo
10b2ob2o3bo12bo5bo2bo4bo$54b2o40b2ob2o35bobo18bobo2bo3bo4bobo$97b3o37b
o23b2obobo$54b2o34bo70b2ob2o$53bo2bo32b3o70b3o$54b2o32b2obo6bo72bo$88b
3o6b2o26bo44b3o$54b2o33b2o7bo24b2ob2o35bo6bob2o$53bo2bo38bo27b2ob2o8bo
26b2o6b3o$54b2o37b4obo18bo6b3o7b2ob2o24bo7b2o$94bo2bo18b3o15b2ob2o27bo
$54b2o39b3o18bob2o15b3o6bo18bob4o$53bo2bo60b3o23b3o18bo2bo$54b2o49b3o
9b3o22b2obo18b3o$70bo13bo19bo2bo9b2o23b3o$54b2o13b3o11b3o21bo34b3o9b3o
$53bo2bo11b2obo5bo4b2obo21bo35b2o9bo2bo$54b2o12b3o5b3o3b3o19bobo47bo$
69b2o5bob2o3b2o69bo$54b2o99bobo18b3o11b3o$53bo2bo45bo7b3o3b3o56bo2bo
10bo2bo$54b2o47b2o5bo2bobo2bo59bo4b3o6bo$79bo22b2o6bo7bo24b3o3b3o7bo
18bo4bo2bo5bo$54b2o21b2o4b3o24bo7bo24bo2bobo2bo5b2o16bobo4bo3bo2bobo$
53bo2bo26bo2bo24bobobobo25bo7bo6b2o22bobob2o$54b2o24bo2bo59bo7bo31b2ob
2o$75bo7bo30bo29bobobobo33b3o$54b2o18bo3b2o4bobo26b3o8b2o51bo$53bo2bo
17bo37b2ob2o7bobo20bo28b3o$54b2o19bo36b2ob2o8b2o9b2o8b3o26b2obo6bo$85b
3o3b3o19bobo19bobo7b2ob2o25b3o6b2o$54b2o12bo9bo5bo2bo3bo2bo19bo20b2o8b
2ob2o26b2o7bo$53bo2bo10b3o6b3o8bo3bo54bobo33bo$54b2o11bob2o5bo10bo3bo
55bo32b4obo$68b3o5bobo5bobo5bobo17b2ob2o7b2o43bo5bo5bo2bo$54b2o12b2o7b
2o28bo3bo5bo5bo2bo41b3o3b3o5b3o$53bo2bo31b3o17b2o2bo3bo7b2o10b2o7b2ob
2o17b2obo3bob2o14b3o$54b2o32b3o16b2o4b3o19bo2bo5bo5bo3bo12b3o5b3o14bo
2bo$88bobo22bobo20b2o7bo3bo2b2o14b2o5b2o15bo$54b2o33bo24bo31b3o4b2o37b
o$53bo2bo32bo24bo31bobo23bo20bobo$54b2o19bo71bo23b3o$75b2o20bo49bo22bo
3bo$54b2o18bobo10bo3bo4b3o71bo3bo$53bo2bo30b2ob2o4bob2o64bo$54b2o32bob
o6b3o63b3o4bo3bo11b3o$80bo16b2o63b2obo4bo3bo11bo$54b2o24b2o7bo72b3o5b
2ob2o12bo$53bo2bo22bobo7bo73b2o6bobo$54b2o33bo82bo$112bo68b3o$54b2o29b
o27b2o66bo$53bo2bo28b2o25b2o35bo32bo$54b2o28bobo60b2o$148b2o$54b2o26bo
93b3o$53bo2bo24b3o6bo85bo$54b2o25bob2o5b2o32b2o51bo$82b3o4bobo22b2o8bo
bo$54b2o26b3o29b2o9b2o9b2o48b3o11b3o$53bo2bo25b2o51bobo8b2o23b3o11bo2b
o10bo2bo$54b2o79b2o9b2o23bo16bo4b3o6bo$172bo15bo4bo2bo5bo$54b2o129bobo
4bo6bobo$53bo2bo57bobo7b2o71bo$54b2o58bobo6bo2bo64bo4bo$113bo10b2o10b
2o7bobo43bo$54b2o57b3o19bo2bo6bobo39bo5bo$53bo2bo52b2o3b3obo17b2o10bo
37b3o3b3o$54b2o53b2o6b2o27b3o36b2obo3b3o$117b2o24bob3o3b2o20b2o10b3o4b
2o$54b2o49bo37b2o6b2o20b2o11b2o5b5o$53bo2bo48b2o36b2o34bo15b3o$54b2o
48bobo71b3o$177b2obo4bo6bo$54b2o100b3o18b3o4b3o5bo$53bo2bo99bo20b3o4bo
b2o6bo7b3o$54b2o101bo19b3o5b3o6b2o6bo2bo$178b2o5b2o6b2o7bo$54b2o137bo
8bo$53bo2bo125bo20bobo$54b2o125b3o$180bo3bo$54b2o$53bo2bo$54b2o104bo
13bo5b2ob2o$113b2o5bo38b3o11b3o6bo12b3o$54b2o57b2o5b2o2b2o33bob2o4bo5b
ob2o18bo$53bo2bo62bobo2bobo20b2o11b3o3b3o5b3o19bo$54b2o69b2o9b2o9b2o
11b2o3b2o2bo4b2o4bo3bo$135bobo3b3o23b3o9bobobobo$54b2o79b2o4bo38b5o5b
3o$53bo2bo85bo37b2ob2o5bo$54b2o125bobo7bo$173b3o5b3o$54b2o116bo2bo$53b
o2bo118bo9b3o$54b2o119bo9bo$172bobo11bo$54b2o108b2o$53bo2bo107b2o23bo$
54b2o132b3o$158bo24b2o3bob2o$54b2o101b3o7bo15b3o3b3o$53bo2bo99b2obo5b
2ob2o19b3o$54b2o100b3o6b2ob2o19b2o$157b2o6b2ob2o$54b2o111b2o$53bo2bo$
54b2o2$54b2o80b2o32b3o$53bo2bo80b2o31bo$54b2o80bo28b2o4bo4bo$125b2o39b
2o7b3o$54b2o68bo3bo36bo9bob2o$53bo2bo56b2o8bo5bo7bo38b3o$54b2o57b2o8bo
3bob2o4bobo38b2o$123bo5bo3b2o12b2o21b2o$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o22b2o$53b
o2bo68b2o6b2o35bo$54b2o79bobo$137bo$54b2o$53bo2bo$54b2o$151b2o$54b2o
96b2o$53bo2bo94bo$54b2o2$54b2o$53bo2bo$54b2o88bo$144b2o$54b2o87bobo$
53bo2bo$54b2o$170b2o$54b2o114bo$53bo2bo111bobo$54b2o80b2o30b2o$137b2o$
54b2o80bo$53bo2bo68b2o$54b2o68bo3bo$113b2o8bo5bo7bo$54b2o57b2o8bo3bob
2o4bobo$53bo2bo66bo5bo3b2o12b2o10bo$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o10b2o$125b2o
6b2o23bobo$54b2o79bobo$53bo2bo80bo$54b2o2$54b2o$53bo2bo94b2o$54b2o96b
2o$151bo$54b2o$53bo2bo$54b2o2$54b2o88bo$53bo2bo87b2o$54b2o87bobo2$54b
2o$53bo2bo113b2o$54b2o114bo$168bobo$54b2o80b2o30b2o$53bo2bo80b2o$54b2o
80bo$125b2o$54b2o68bo3bo$53bo2bo56b2o8bo5bo7bo$54b2o57b2o8bo3bob2o4bob
o$123bo5bo3b2o12b2o10bo$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o10b2o$53bo2bo68b2o6b2o23b
obo$54b2o79bobo$137bo$54b2o$53bo2bo$54b2o$151b2o$54b2o96b2o$53bo2bo94b
o$54b2o2$54b2o$53bo2bo$54b2o88bo$144b2o$54b2o87bobo$53bo2bo$54b2o$170b
2o$54b2o114bo$53bo2bo111bobo$54b2o80b2o30b2o$137b2o$54b2o80bo$53bo2bo
68b2o$54b2o68bo3bo$113b2o8bo5bo7bo$54b2o57b2o8bo3bob2o4bobo$53bo2bo66b
o5bo3b2o12b2o10bo$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o10b2o$125b2o6b2o23bobo$54b2o79b
obo$53bo2bo80bo$54b2o2$54b2o$53bo2bo94b2o$54b2o96b2o$151bo$54b2o$53bo
2bo$54b2o2$54b2o88bo$53bo2bo87b2o$54b2o87bobo2$54b2o$53bo2bo113b2o$54b
2o114bo$168bobo$54b2o80b2o30b2o$53bo2bo80b2o$54b2o80bo$125b2o$54b2o68b
o3bo$53bo2bo56b2o8bo5bo7bo$54b2o57b2o8bo3bob2o4bobo$123bo5bo3b2o12b2o
10bo$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o10b2o$53bo2bo68b2o6b2o23bobo$54b2o79bobo$
137bo$54b2o$53bo2bo$54b2o$151b2o$54b2o96b2o$53bo2bo94bo$54b2o2$54b2o$
53bo2bo$54b2o88bo$144b2o$54b2o87bobo$53bo2bo$54b2o$170b2o$54b2o114bo$
53bo2bo111bobo$54b2o80b2o30b2o$137b2o$54b2o80bo$53bo2bo68b2o$54b2o68bo
3bo$113b2o8bo5bo7bo28bo$54b2o57b2o8bo3bob2o4bobo26bobo$53bo2bo66bo5bo
3b2o12b2o10bo5b2o$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o10b2o$125b2o6b2o23bobo$54b2o79b
obo$53bo2bo80bo$54b2o2$54b2o$53bo2bo94b2o$54b2o96b2o$151bo$54b2o$53bo
2bo151b2o$54b2o152bobo$208bo$54b2o88bo$53bo2bo87b2o$54b2o87bobo2$54b2o
$53bo2bo113b2o$54b2o114bo$168bobo$54b2o80b2o30b2o$53bo2bo80b2o$54b2o
80bo$125b2o$54b2o68bo3bo124b2o$53bo2bo56b2o8bo5bo7bo115bobo$54b2o57b2o
8bo3bob2o4bobo115bo$123bo5bo3b2o12b2o10bo$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o10b2o$
53bo2bo68b2o6b2o23bobo$54b2o79bobo$137bo$54b2o$53bo2bo$54b2o$151b2o$
54b2o96b2o$53bo2bo94bo$54b2o$298b2o$54b2o242bobo$53bo2bo241bo$54b2o88b
o$144b2o$54b2o87bobo$53bo2bo$54b2o$170b2o$54b2o114bo$53bo2bo111bobo$
54b2o80b2o30b2o$137b2o$54b2o80bo$53bo2bo68b2o662bo2bo$54b2o68bo3bo214b
2o448bo$113b2o8bo5bo7bo205bobo443bo3bo$54b2o57b2o8bo3bob2o4bobo205bo
446b4o13b4o$53bo2bo66bo5bo3b2o12b2o10bo646bo3bo$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o
10b2o649bo$125b2o6b2o23bobo645bo2bo$54b2o79bobo646bo$53bo2bo80bo644bob
o19b2o$54b2o727b2o18b5o$796bob3o2bo4bo21bo$54b2o738b2o3bo3b3o2bo21b4o$
53bo2bo94b2o626bo14bobo7bo2b2o23b2o$54b2o96b2o623bobo14bob2o7b2o28bo$
151bo613b3o10b2o15b2o35b4o$54b2o708b5o27bo39bo$53bo2bo331b2o374b3ob2o
62bo2b3o$54b2o155bo176bobo376b2o5bo25b2o5b4o23b3o$209bobo176bo383bobo
17b2o4b2ob2o3bo3bo24bo$54b2o88bo65b2o561b2o16b4o3b4o8bo19bob3o$53bo2bo
87b2o635bo9b2ob2o3b2o5bo2bo20b2o2bo$54b2o87bobo622b2o11bo11b2o36b3o$
768b2o7bo2b2o4bobo42bo$54b2o721bo7bo2b2o43bo$53bo2bo113b2o605bo2b2o4bo
bo19b2o5b4o12bobo$54b2o114bo610bo11b2o11b2ob2o3bo3bo15bo$168bobo610bo
9b2ob2o10b4o8bo12bobo$54b2o80b2o30b2o621b4o12b2o5bo2bo15bo$53bo2bo80b
2o653b2o37bo$54b2o80bo665b2o9bo17b3o$125b2o673b5o8b3o14b2o2bo$54b2o68b
o3bo304b2o365b2o4bo5bo3bo13bob3o$53bo2bo56b2o8bo5bo7bo295bobo323bo40b
2o5b5o4bo18bo$54b2o57b2o8bo3bob2o4bobo295bo323bobo42b2o4b4obob2o17b3o$
123bo5bo3b2o12b2o10bo598b2o45b3ob2o3bo17bo2b3o$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o
10b2o650bobo22bo$53bo2bo68b2o6b2o23bobo671b4o$54b2o79bobo653bo43bo$
137bo651b2o24b4o13b2o$54b2o734b2o22bo3bo9bob4o$53bo2bo740b4o17bo9bobo$
54b2o740bo3bo13bo2bo9b2o$151b2o623bo23bo27b2o$54b2o96b2o620b2o20bo2bo
27bo2bo$53bo2bo94bo623b2o11bo2bo39bo$54b2o736bo38bo$478b2o300bo7bo3bo
36b3o$54b2o422bobo263bo33b3o3bo4b4o37bo$53bo2bo421bo263bobo33b2o5b2o
42b2o$54b2o88bo598b2o32bo6b3o41bobo$144b2o632b2o5b2o39bo2b2o$54b2o87bo
bo632b3o3bo4b4o34bobo$53bo2bo723bo7bo3bo$54b2o736bo35b2o$788bo2bo34bo
2bo$54b2o769bo2bo$53bo2bo721b2o46b3o$54b2o80b2o593bo44b2ob2o46bo$137b
2o590b2o45b4o46b2o$54b2o80bo593b2o22b2o5b4o12b2o46bobo$53bo2bo68b2o
625b2ob2o3bo3bo58bo2b2o$54b2o68bo3bo394b2o41b4o182b4o8bo59bobo$113b2o
8bo5bo7bo385bobo39bo3bo159bo23b2o5bo2bo$40b2o12b2o57b2o8bo3bob2o4bobo
385bo45bo157bobo95b2o$40b2o11bo2bo66bo5bo3b2o12b2o416bo2bo159b2o18b2o
9bo63bo2bo$54b2o68bo3bo4b2o12b2o430b2o165b5o8b3o60bo2bo$125b2o6b2o443b
4o164b2o4bo5bo3bo60b3o$37b2o15b2o79bobo428bo11b2ob2o163b2o5b5o4bo61bo$
37b2o8b2o4bo2bo80bo426b2obo3bo2bo5b2o166b2o4b4obob2o60b2o$47bo6b2o506b
5o4bo3bo175b3ob2o3bo61bobo$40b2o6bo513bo2bo4bo4b2o180bobo60bo2b2o$40b
2o5b2o5b2o506b5o4bo3bo245bobo$53bo2bo507b2obo3bo2bo5b2o104bo50bo$54b2o
510bo11b2ob2o101b2o49b2o24b4o57b2o$31b2o545b4o103b2o49b2o22bo3bo17b2o
5b4o27bo2bo$31b2o21b2o523b2o162b4o17bo15b2ob2o3bo3bo26bo2bo$53bo2bo
151b2o358b2o17b2o153bo3bo13bo2bo16b4o8bo27b3o$54b2o152bobo357bobo15b4o
124bo7bo23bo34b2o5bo2bo29bo$27bo180bo359bo17b2ob2o14b2o105bobo5b2o20bo
2bo74b2o$26bobo25b2o532b2o14b4o105b2o6b2o11bo2bo41bo39bobo$26bobo24bo
2bo547b2ob2o129bo39b2o8b2o27bo2b2o$27bo26b2o527b2o21b2o109b2o15bo3bo
38bo9bo2bo27bobo$582b2o133b3o4b2o9b4o39b5o4bo2bo$54b2o663bo3b2o5b3o46b
4o3b2ob2o28b2o$53bo2bo524b2o136b3o6b2ob2o49bo4b2o28bo2bo$54b2o547b2o
114bo3b2o5b3o83bo2bo$597b3o3bobo111b3o4b2o9b4o26bobo49b3o$29b2o23b2o
538b3o6bob2o34bo50bo23bo2b2o13bo3bo27b3o49bo$29b2o22bo2bo537bo9b2o33b
2o49b2o24bo3bo17bo27b3o20b4o24b2o$54b2o538b3o7bo35b2o49b2o24bo16bo2bo
50bo3bo23bobo$32b2o683b3o51b4o17bo21bo2b2o$32b2o20b2o668b2o27bo16bo3bo
13bo2bo23bobo$53bo2bo199bo348b2o92bo22b2ob2o24b2o21bo$54b2o198bobo339b
4o4b4o89bobo22b4o26b2o16bo2bo42b2o$29b2o224b2o338bo3bo4b2ob2o89b2o23b
2o37bo2bo48bo2bo$29b2o23b2o543bo6b2o158bo46bo2bo$53bo2bo538bo2bo139bo
23bo3bo47b3o$54b2o680b2o14b2o9b4o48bo$737b2o12b2o5b3o53b2o$54b2o691b3o
6b2ob2o52bobo$53bo2bo590b2o102b2o5b3o50bo2b2o$54b2o199bo29bo29bo29bo
29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo30bobo103b2o9b4o8b2o35bobo$255b3o
27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o8bo18b3o28bob2o
112bo3bo6bo4bo$54b2o202bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo
5b2o22bo28b3o116bo12bo33b2o$54bobo200b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o
28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o6b2o20b2o28b2obo79b4o28bo2bo7bo5bo31bo2bo$55b
obo590b2o79b6o39b6o30bo2bo$56b2o671b4ob2o16b2o57b3o$50b2o207b3o27b3o
27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o122bo48b2o15b2ob2o57bo$
50b2o207b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o120bobo
65b4o29b4o24b2o$258bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo
3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo120b2o66b2o29bo3bo23bobo$778bo7bo21bo2b2o$257b
2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o
23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o129bo79b7o2bo2bo23bobo$590b2o28b2o28b2o28b
2o9b2o17b2o22b3o3b3o3b3o3b3o3b3o3b3o5bo2b3ob2o$590bobo27bobo27bobo27bo
bo9b2o16bobo60b7o2bo2bo24b2o$591b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o65bo7bo21bo2bo$
782bo3bo20bo2bo$261b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b
3o219b4o21b3o$258b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o
202bo2bo43bo$258b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o
206bo41b2o$257b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o
178b2o10b2o11bo3bo7b6o27bobo$258bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bo
bo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo177b2o11bo11b4o6bo5bo25bo2b2o$259b2o28b2o28b
2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o143b4o29bo8bo7b2o2b3o18bo26b
obo$693bo9bo3bo37bo8b2o2b3o12bo4bo$590b2o28b2o22bo5b2o22bo19b2o11bo38b
o7b2o2b3o14b2o30b2o$259b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b
2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o24bobo27bobo20bobo
4bobo21bo4bo11b3o5b2o2bo2bo35b2o7bo11b4o38bo2bo$259b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b
2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o
23b2o3b2o25b2o28b2o20bobo5b2o21bo3bobo10b2o6b3o41b2o4b2o11bo3bo2bo2bo
31bo2bo$253bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo120bo33bo2bo9b3o5b2o
2bo2bo12b2o5b4o12bo23bo6bo6b2o23b3o$251b2o8b3o17b2o8b3o17b2o8b3o17b2o
8b3o17b2o8b3o17b2o8b3o17b2o8b3o17b2o8b3o17b2o8b3o17b2o8b3o27b3o114bo2b
o10b2o13bo9b2ob2o3bo3bo7b3o22bo2bo3bo3bo4b2ob2o23bo$252b2o7b3o18b2o7b
3o18b2o7b3o18b2o7b3o18b2o7b3o18b2o7b3o18b2o7b3o18b2o7b3o18b2o7b3o18b2o
7b3o27b3o115b2o11b2o9bo3bo9b4o8bo6b5o29b4o4b4o23b2o$262bo29bo29bo29bo
29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo130b2o9b4o10b2o5bo2bo7b3ob2o5b2o30b2o23bob
o$694bo44b2o7b2o52bo2b2o$671b2o6b5o40bo22bo55bobo$647bo8bo12b2ob2o4bo
4bo35bo3bo2bo33bobo12b4o$646b3o7bo8bo3b4o10bo14b3o17b2o7bo30b3ob2o11bo
2b2o24b2o$244bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bob
o68b2o53b3obo3b4o8b2o2bobo3b2o6bo3bo17bo18b2o6bo24b2o4b3ob3o11bo2b2o
21bo2bo$244b2o16b2o10b2o16b2o10b2o16b2o10b2o16b2o10b2o16b2o10b2o16b2o
10b2o16b2o10b2o16b2o10b2o16b2o10b2o16b2o28b2o20bobo5b2o28b2o19b4o2b4o
6bo2b2o3bo12bo18bo20b2o4b2o25b2o4b2ob2o12bo2bo21bo2bo$245bo16b2o11bo
16b2o11bo16b2o11bo16b2o11bo16b2o11bo16b2o11bo16b2o11bo16b2o11bo16b2o
11bo16b2o28b2o22bo5b2o28b2o16bo2bo4b4o8b2o2bobo3b2o32bobo18bo26bo7b3o
3b2o9b2o23b3o$641bob2ob3o7bo8bo3b4o31bo2bo14b2o37bo4b2o35bo$641b3obo
10bo12b2ob2o128b2o$640bo2bo6b3o18b2o32b3o93bobo$486b4o4b4o142b2o2b2o4b
o75b4o50b2o17bo2b2o$238bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo36bo3bo3bo3bo4bo
2bo136b4o5bo56bo2bo13bo3bo32b2o14b2ob2o17bobo$236b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b
2o28b2o28b2o28b2o41bo7bo8bo137bo33b2o32bo16bo31b4o13b4o$237b2o28b2o28b
2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o36bo2bo4bo2bo5bo3bo134bo34b2ob2o27bo3bo12bo
2bo32b2ob2o13b2o20b2o$503b4o133bobo22b3o8b4o16b2o11b4o50b2o34bo2bo$
572b2o65b2o3bo20bo11b2o15b2ob2o99bo2bo$563b4o4b4o50b2o13bo3b2o20bo27b
4o101b3o$484b3o3b2o70bo3bo4b2ob2o48b4o17bo49b2o103bo$477bo5bo3bo2b2o9b
2o63bo6b2o39bo9b2ob2o12bo3bo153b2o$229bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bo
bo27bobo27bobo36bo3bo5bo11bo2b2o57bo2bo34b2o12bo11b2o14bobo38b2o113bob
o$229b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o35b3o9bo10b3o2bo94bobo8bo2b
2o4bobo55b3o3b2o9bo101bo2b2o$230bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo41bo5bo
10bo4bo96bo8bo7bo2b2o24b4o26b3o14b2o101bobo$484bob2o11b5o19bo2bo36b2o
45bo2b2o4bobo24bo3bo25bo3bo12bob2o$472bo27b2o25bo35bo7b2o41bo11b2o22bo
25b4o13bobo102b2o$463b2o8bo49bo3bo35bo2bo5b2o31b2o7bo9b2ob2o3b2o5bo2bo
3bo2bo27b3o13b2o101bo2bo$460b3ob2o5b3o21b2o5bo2bo18b4o36b3o4b2o31bobo
17b4o3b4o8bo151bo2bo$223bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo56b5o29b4o8bo43bo15b
2o3bo34bo18b2o4b2ob2o3bo3bo152b3o$221b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o
58b3o30b2ob2o3bo3bo43bo49b2o31b2o5b4o41bo2bo108bo$222b2o28b2o28b2o28b
2o28b2o28b2o28b2o63bo21b2o5b2o5b4o43bobo44b3ob2o86bo6b2o98b2o$468bo9bo
8b2ob2o59bo20b2o23b5o8b2o73bo3bo4b2ob2o96bobo$466b3o7bobo4bo3b4o60bo
19b4o23b3o8bobo24b2o48b4o4b4o95bo2b2o$475bo2bo5bo3b2o64b2o15b2ob2o35bo
15b2o3b3o4bo55b2o97bobo$475bo6bo2bo51bo15b4o16b2o11b4o33b2o6b5o4b2o$
475bo2bo5bo3b2o46bo16b2ob2o27bo3bo12bo2bo18b3o4bob2o6bo153b2o$214bobo
27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo79bobo4bo3b4o45b3o16b2o32bo16bo8b
2o8bo4b2o9bo151bo2bo$214b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o82bo8b2ob2o
93bo2bo13bo3bo7bobo13b2o5bo2bo151bo2bo$215bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo
93b2o12b2o98b4o9bo13b2o6bo154b3o$503bo4bo13bo25b2o244bo$509bo11bo15bo
8b2ob2o28bo59bo2bo150b2o$509bo11b3o11bobo4bo3b4o30bo18bobo41bo148bobo$
185b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o14bo32bo2bo5bo
3b2o29b3o12b3ob2o3bo36bo3bo146bo2b2o$184bo2bo26bo2bo20bo5bo2bo20bo5bo
2bo20bo5bo2bo20bo5bo2bo20bo5bo2bo26bo2bo26bo2bo27b2o28b2o15bo2bobobo3b
2o19bo6bo2bo12bo32b2o4b4obob2o18b4o13b4o147bobo$184bo29bo21b2o6bo21b2o
6bo21b2o6bo21b2o6bo21b2o6bo29bo29bo77bo2b3obo3b2o19bo2bo5bo3b2o6bo3bo
28b2o5b5o4bo17bo3bo$184bo29bo22b2o5bo22b2o5bo22b2o5bo22b2o5bo22b2o5bo
29bo29bo27bo50bobo2bo26bobo4bo3b4o10bo13bo13b2o4bo5bo3bo21bo165b2o$
184bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo26bo49b2o32bo8b
2ob2o4bo4bo14bo12b5o8b3o18bo2bo164bo2bo$184bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bob
o27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo24b3o94b2o6b5o12b3o14b2o9bo187bo2bo$185bo29bo
29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo364b3o$581b4o10b2o5bo2bo185bo$580bo3bo9b4o
8bo183b2o$182b2o3b2o10bobo10b2o3b2o10bobo10b2o3b2o10bobo10b2o3b2o10bob
o10b2o3b2o10bobo10b2o3b2o10bobo10b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o146b2o7bo9b
2ob2o3bo3bo182bobo$182bo5bo10b2o11bo5bo10b2o11bo5bo10b2o11bo5bo10b2o
11bo5bo10b2o11bo5bo10b2o11bo5bo23bo5bo23bo5bo78bo29bo36b4o2bo2bo12b2o
5b4o180bo2b2o$200bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo103b2o28b2o20bobo5b2o20bobo5b2o
27bo3b2o209bobo$183bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo
3bo25bo3bo25bobo27bobo20bobo4bobo20bobo4bobo18b3o7b4o2bo2bo$184b3o27b
3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o26b2o28b2o22bo5b2o22bo5b2o17b2ob
2o8b2o7bo204b2o$559bo20bo3bo202bo2bo$581b4o201bo2bo$193bo29bo29bo29bo
29bo473b3o$191b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o475bo$88b2o102b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o
28b2o473b2o$89bo696bobo$89bobo5b2o89bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo
150b4o201bo2b2o$90b2o5bo2bo85bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo
27bobo27bobo128bo20bo3bo202bobo$81b2o18bo9bobo73b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b
2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o22b2o28b2o22bo5b2o22bo5b2o17b2ob2o8b2o7bo$81b2o
18bo7bo3bo337bobo27bobo20bobo4bobo20bobo4bobo18b3o7b4o2bo2bo204b2o$67b
o10b2o21bo7bo73bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo28b2o28b2o20bobo5b2o
20bobo5b2o27bo3b2o207bo2bo$67bobo7b3o17bo2bo7bo4bo8b2o58b3o27b3o27b3o
27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o80bo29bo36b4o2bo2bo12b2o5b4o178bo2bo$70b
2o6b2o17b2o10bo12b2o57b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o147b
2o7bo9b2ob2o3bo3bo179b3o$56b2o12b2o9b2o5b2o19bo3bo48bo17b2o3b2o23b2o3b
2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o23b2o3b2o8bo14b2o3b2o8bo14b2o3b2o8bo14b2o
3b2o151bo3bo9b4o8bo180bo$56b2o12b2o9b2o5bobo9bobo8bobo46b3o18b5o25b5o
25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o10bo14b5o10bo14b5o10bo14b5o153b4o10b2o5bo2bo180b2o
$67bobo20bo9b2o57bo21bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo25bo3bo8b3o14bo
3bo8b3o14bo3bo8b3o14bo3bo357bobo$67bo11bo10b2o9bo57b2o21bobo27bobo27bo
bo27bobo27bobo27bobo14b2o11bobo27bobo27bobo121b2o6b5o12b3o14b2o9bo181b
o2b2o$77bobo67bo35bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo15b2o12bo29bo29bo24b2o51b2o32b
o8b2ob2o4bo4bo14bo12b5o8b3o180bobo$78b2o66bobob2ob2o294b2o50bobo2bo26b
obo4bo3b4o10bo13bo13b2o4bo5bo3bo$147bo3bobobobo290bo51bo2b3obo3b2o19bo
2bo5bo3b2o6bo3bo28b2o5b5o4bo180b2o$151bo4b2o25b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o
28b2o28b2o17bo10b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o15bo2bobobo3b2o19bo6bo2bo12bo32b2o4b
4obob2o178bo2bo$152bo30b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o16bobo9b2o18bo
9b2o28b2o28b2o14bo32bo2bo5bo3b2o29b3o12b3ob2o3bo179bo2bo$106bo46bo227b
o29bobo93bo11b3o11bobo4bo3b4o30bo18bobo181b3o$105b2o45b2o227b2o29b2o
93bo11bo15bo8b2ob2o28bo204bo$105bobo308bo65bo2bo15bo4bo13bo25b2o233b2o
$414bo3bo67bo14b2o98b4o175bobo$95b2o21b2o264b2o33bo49b2o11bo3bo96bo2bo
13bo3bo173bo2b2o$96bo21bobo28b2o229b4ob2o27bo4bo51bo11b4o47b3o16b2o32b
o16bo174bobo$96bobo9bo4b2o6bo7b2o17bo2bo4b2o222b6o29b5o46bo7b2o2b3o53b
o16b2ob2o27bo3bo12bo2bo$97b2o8bobo2bo2bo2bo2bo7b2o17bo2bo4bobo222b4o
80bo8b2o2b3o54bo15b4o16b2o11b4o192b2o$107b2obob3o6bo27b2o8bo297bo8bo7b
2o2b3o71b2o15b2ob2o204bo2bo$107b2ob2o6bobo39bo295bo14bo11b4o62bo19b4o
204bo2bo$107b2obo7b2o41bo295bo5b2o4b2o11bo3bo2bo2bo56bo20b2o206b3o$
107bobo35bo16bo301b2o20bo6bo6b2o46bobo228bo$108bo35bobo16bo293b3o3bo
18bo2bo3bo3bo4b2ob2o45bo229b2o$145bo14b3o293b5o29b4o4b4o46bo15b2o3bo
207bobo$159bo296b3ob2o37b2o21b4o36b3o4b2o81b3o120bo2b2o$141bo18bo298b
2o7b2o51bo3bo35bo2bo5b2o79b5o120bobo$140bobo18bo307b2o20bo33bo35bo7b2o
80b3ob2o28b2o$141bo20bo305bo20bo4bo3bo22bo2bo36b2o91b2o20b4o4b4o89b2o$
163bo317b2ob2o3bo3bo4b2o175bo3bo4b2ob2o86bo2bo$137bo26bo316bo2bo8bo5b
2o178bo6b2o86bo2bo$136bobo26bo307b2o7b3o13b2o60bo2bo102b2o2bo4bo2bo96b
3o$137bo28bo307b2o11bo2bo73bo6b2o91b2o5bo104bo$167bo305bo14b2o70bo3bo
4b2ob2o89bo3bo3b2o9bo92b2o$133bo34bo392b4o4b4o90bob2o14b4o89bobo$132bo
bo34bo400b2o91b2ob2obo6b8obo86bo2b2o$133bo36bo329b2o164bo8bo9b2o86bobo
$165b2o4bo310b2o14b2ob2o168bo3b2o4bob3o$165bobobobo3bo305b4o13b4o165bo
3bo10b3o89b2o$168b2ob2obobo304b2ob2o13b2o168bo9bo92bo2bo$175bo307b2o
156bo33bo95bo2bo$640bo32bo3bo7b2o85b3o$116bo523b3o35bo5b4o85bo$117bo
555bo4bo5b2ob2o83b2o$115b3o9bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo
36bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo36bo2bo37bo2bo22b5o7b2o83bob
o$126bo39bo39bo39bo39bo39bo39bo39bo39bo39bo39bo39bo39bo23b3o19bo116bo
2b2o$126bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo
35bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo19bobo15bo3bo13bo2bo100bobo$126b4o36b4o36b
4o36b4o36b4o36b4o36b4o36b4o36b4o36b4o36b4o36b4o36b4o20b3o16b4o17bo$94b
2o570bo3bo100b2o$93bobo534b2o12b3o20b4o98bo2bo$93bo536b2o12b3o121bo2bo
$92b2o27bobobo115bobobo117bo150b4o111bo13bobo123b3o$513bo3bo12bo2bo96b
2o138bo$121bo123bo115bo3bo151bo16bo104bo20bo4b2o102b2o$22b2o489bo2bo
13bo3bo104b2o16b4o3b2ob2o99bobo$22b2o97bobo119bo119bobo165b4o94b5o4bob
o15b5o4bo2bo97bo2b2o$508bo119bo4bo21bo9bo2bo98bobo$125bo115bo123bo143b
o123bo22b2o8b2o$507b3o118bo3bo11bo12bo110b2o$121bobo117bo120bobo159bo
4b2o99bo13b2o120bo2bo$521b4o3b2ob2o110bobo13b2o5bo2bo95bo2bo$35bob2o
94b2o368bo16b5o4bo2bo125b4o8bo95b3o$14b2o14bo2bobob2o94bo89b2o28b2o28b
2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o28b2o9bo14bo9bo2bo125b2ob2o3bo3bo12b2o
82bo$14b2o13bo3bo2bo97b3o86bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo8b3o
15b2o8b2o117bo10b2o5b4o3b4o4b4o80b2o$30bo6bobo96bo87b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o
27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o24bo127b2o22bo3bo4b2ob2o78bobo$31bo5bo
188bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo29bo151bobo26bo6b2o77bo2b2o$29bo
493b2o5bo2bo139bo2bo87bobo$29bo12bo479b4o8bo$44b2o456bo2bo16b2ob2o3bo
3bo119bo16b2o92b2o$41b2ob2o460bo17b2o5b4o119b2o15b2o8b2o84bo$6b2o35bo
458bo3bo146bobo14bo3bo5bo2bo83bo$6b2o36b2o457b4o8bo155bo3bo4bo2b2o82bo
$515b2o25b4o125bo4bo2bo2b2o79bo2bo$43b2o469bobo14bo9bo3bo113bo13bobo3b
4o81b2o$532b2o11bo113b2o102b2o$41bo487b3o5b2o2bo2bo113bobo103bobo$42bo
bo475bo7b3o6b3o143b2o79bob4o$39b2o2bo477bo7b3o5b2o2bo2bo137b4o82b2o$
520bo11b2o11bo136b2ob2o84bo$531bo9bo3bo12b2o107b2o15b2o82b4o$542b4o3b
4o4b4o104b2ob2o102bo$b3o521bo22bo3bo4b2ob2o103b4o99bo2b3o$3bo16b2o496b
2o5b2o25bo6b2o105b2o102b3o$bo19b2o492b3ob2o3bobo21bo2bo219bo$3bo16bo
494b5o246bob3o$b3o512b3o247b2o2bo$b2o527bo18b2o216b3o$2bo58bob2o465b2o
17bo7b2o208bo$b3o52bo2bobob2o464bobo17bo2bo5b2o209bo$o3b3o48bo3bo2bo
487b3o4b2o208bobo$5b2o49bo6bobo470bo15b2o3bo212bo$5b2o50bo5bo472bo230b
obo$2bo21bobo28bo12b2o466bobo230bo$2bo22bob2o3b2o21bo12b2o467bo20b2o
207bo$2bo18b2o3b2ob5o503b2o18b4o206b3o$21b2o3bobob2obo523b2ob2o204b2o
2bo$20bo2b2obo4b3o10bo497b2o15b2o205bob3o$21bobobo7bo9bobo494b2ob2o
226bo$21bobo18bo3bo493b4o226b3o$42bo2bo495b2o225bo2b3o39bo$42bo2bo14b
2o710bo38bo3bo$42bobo15b2o706b4o44bo$13b3o755bo13bo2b3o20bo4bo$13b3o
752b2o12b2o2bob2obo20b5o$15bo750b4o8bob4o3b3ob2o13b2o$16bo2b2ob2o742bo
10b5obo2bobob4o6b2o2b5obo$10b3o3b4o3bo751bo4bo4b4obo3bo5b4o7bo$16bob2o
bobo3b3o216b2o528bo6bo4bo2bo2b2o4bo10bo$15bo13bo15bo6b2o192bobo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo2bo3b5o3bo2bob3ob2o7b3o$
27bo16b3o5b2o193bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo2bo2bo6bo5b2o9b
3o2bo3bo$29bo14bo2bo200b2obobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo2bo2bo6bo
5b2o9b3o2bo3bo$27b3o16bo205bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3b
o3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo
3bo3bo2bo3b5o3bo2bob3ob2o7b3o$27b2o15b3o729bo6bo4bo2bo2b2o4bo10bo$28bo
15b3o728bo4bo4b4obo3bo5b4o7bo$27b3o15bo719bo11b5obo2bobob4o6b2o2b5obo$
26bo3b3o11b2o717bo6bo7bob4o3b3ob2o13b2o$31b2o12b2o723bo11b2o2bob2obo
20b5o$31b2o730bo6bo2b3o9bo2b3o20bo4bo$28bo735b6o3b3o40bo$28bo744b2o3b
2o31bo3bo$28bo747b2ob2o32bo$774b6o$772bo3b3o$776bo$772bo3bo$773b4o!
The only way to prove whether this pattern contains some of your intellectual property would be to prove the existence of other Fermat primes. Otherwise, it doesn't. (EDIT: In case this was unclear, the conjecture of whether other Fermat primes exist has remained unsolved for over 200 years.)

Is this a ridiculous hypothetical? Sure. But considering how much of Life revolves around constructing strange growths, I think it's a worthwhile question. If someone didn't want to pay the license for a pattern they could just figure out how to slow-synthesize it and attach a seed coming out of the Fermat prime calculator.

...Actually, since we're dealing with syntheses and "encoding" patterns as something else, does this pattern contain a pattern found by Michael Simkin?:

Code: Select all

#C By Extrementhusiast.
x = 33, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
2o5b2o$2o5b2o2$4b2o$4b2o4$27b2o$11b2o14b2o$11b2o$24b2o5b2o$24b2o5b2o$
16b2o$15bo2bo$16b2o!
It is just a bunch of still lifes, but by adding a single glider, it turns into the Simkin glider gun. However, this glider is not supplied, or even suggested. It is up to the user to decide where they want the glider to go. In all but one of these choices (SPOILER: the orientation in the ConwayLife.com logo, flipped horizontally, with its left corner placed at (17, 8 ).), it creates a bunch of junk. Who's to say which placement is right?

Finally, do any of these patterns contain a Simkin glider gun?:

Code: Select all

#C By me.
x = 41, y = 108, rule = B3/S23
b2o5b2o$b2o5b2o2$5b2o$5b2o4$13bo14b2o$15bo12b2o$13bobo$13b3o9b2o5b2o$
13bo11b2o5b2o18$b2o5b2o$b2o5b2o2$5b2o$5b2o4$28b2o$14b2o12b2o$13bobo$
13b3o9b2o5b2o$13bo11b2o5b2o17$b2o5b2o$o2bo3bo2bo$o2bo3bo2bo$b2o2b2ob2o
$4bo2bo$4bo2bo$5b2o2$28b2o$27bo2bo$15bo11bo2bo$13bobo9b2ob2o2b2o$13b3o
8bo2bo3bo2bo$13bo10bo2bo3bo2bo$25b2o5b2o15$19b6o$17b2o5b2o$b2o5b2o7bo
7bo$b2o5b2o6b2o7bo$16bo9bo$5b2o7b2o10bo$5b2o5b3o11bo$10b3o13bo$8b3o15b
o$5b3o18bo$3b3o19b2ob2o$b2o12bo7b3o2b2o9b2o$13bobo6b2o15bo$13b3o3b4o2b
2o5b2o4b2o$13bo3b3o5b2o5b2o3b2o$17bo19bo$17b2o16b2o$18b2o14b2o$20b4o7b
3o$24b7o!
As annoying as it would be, if the bleak day ever came where we had copyrighted CGoL patterns, I think the examples from the pattern above would turn from me half-trolling to prove a point, to a real way people would "encode" their patterns to avoid paying fees. They're entirely different patterns. You could even make a script that replaces them.

If you're suggesting that there be a way to stop people from running your patterns unless they pay, thus making the above arguments not work, good luck proving to everybody that it does what you say it does. You mentioned "teaser videos", which I think would be an avenue for ripping people off by making fake patterns. That being said, I have in my possession a c/3 diagonal spaceship, 51590x28951 cells, the first of its kind, long thought impossible:
pnSuPGn.png
pnSuPGn.png (65.72 KiB) Viewed 558 times
Pay me 50$ to see it unobscured. (If imgur is blocked in the reader's country, imagine a 256x256 50% density soup, blurred in paint.net, with my name written on it.)

Feel free to correct me on any of these hypotheticals. I just think that it's useless to try and enforce copyright on something as complex as Life patterns, something people seem to think is impossible anyway due to it falling under mathematics.
Last edited by dani on October 8th, 2021, 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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simsim314
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by simsim314 » October 8th, 2021, 2:48 am

dani wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 1:11 am
Finally, do any of these patterns contain a Simkin glider gun?:
Copyrights are well established in courts over the years. Some people took parts of code and renamed the variables, some people took parts of the music and changed several notes, this all has been done before. My guess is that you will need to reduce the complexity of the pattern very much to the point no one will be able to even use it or see what you are trying to do before a copyright law will not be applied. Even a suggestion of Simkin's gun with 6 blocks placed like in the gun would be enough for court case.

@dvgrn - I pointed out few reasons why I think monetization will benefit the community.

1. People are not staying here for long, partially because they see no money in their effort. You can disagree of course - my claim is that you simply ignore the problem instead of dealing with it, blinded by your own value system. And yes you stayed here for long, but this is not a community of one person. We can't all be expected such level of dedication to the field as yours, all done for free. Many people would come, many more would stay if some monetization would be available in this field.

2. Monetization of effort is basic for any artists or person who is making some effort. As I see it - it's not about the community but basic human dignity. Anyone can open source and give his work for free, and I respect this choice. I don't respect not giving any monetization path as a community to anyone who is participating.

3. Yes I was expecting the community to realize the effort put here should be monetized. As I see it now - people are just not thinking anyone should monetize anything done here. As I said before - this is way worse than what I've expected to be the situation in this community.

4. I personally strongly feel that with this attitude - I will start to close source my new research. Not to benefit the community, but myself. I strongly feel such precedent should be done. In my opinion this will benefit the creators community in the long run, just like closing several piratic sites in Russia that were posting books for free benefited the creative writers, who could sell their books - and their intellectual property right start of being respected.

@pcallhan

I'm not searching for ways to profit from some patterns on Etsy. I have many good income sources. My problem is basic respect to effort put into the research of new patterns express in a common language of many other creative communities - money. This seems to be missing from the lexicon of this community as a rule.

I don't believe money is intrinsic reflection of interest in the field - I think money is a way to conduct yourself and demand respect to your work, that also creates new interest. Dave seems to miss this point completely. I might be wrong, and Dave deed a lot more for this community than I am. But no one can demand from me open my patterns - and give them for free. I don't think you leave me any choice. I hope I've explained myself pretty clearly.

mniemiec
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by mniemiec » October 8th, 2021, 3:00 am

simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 2:48 am
4. I personally strongly feel that with this attitude - I will start to close source my new research. Not to benefit the community, but myself. I strongly feel such precedent should be done. In my opinion this will benefit the creators community in the long run, just like closing several piratic sites in Russia that were posting books for free benefited the creative writers, who could sell their books - and their intellectual property right start of being respected.

...

I don't believe money is intrinsic reflection of interest in the field - I think money is a way to conduct yourself and demand respect to your work, that also creates new interest. Dave seems to miss this point completely. I might be wrong, and Dave deed a lot more for this community than I am. But no one can demand from me open my patterns - and give them for free. I don't think you leave me any choice. I hope I've explained myself pretty clearly.
Yet look at your discoveries. They aren't built in a vacuum; they are built upon the work of others, which you ARE using for free. If others had had the attitude that you are expressing here now, none of us would even be here to be having this discussion.

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by Sokwe » October 8th, 2021, 3:39 am

simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 2:48 am
Even a suggestion of Simkin's gun with 6 blocks placed like in the gun would be enough for court case.
I'm not a lawyer, but I can still say with complete confidence that such a lawsuit would fail in virtually every jurisdiction in the world. Most interesting Game of Life pattens are standardized expressions of mathematical fact, similar to formulas and equations, which are exempt from most (probably nearly all) intellectual property law.
-Matthias Merzenich

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by mniemiec » October 8th, 2021, 3:51 am

Sokwe wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 3:39 am
I'm not a lawyer, but I can still say with complete confidence that such a lawsuit would fail in virtually every jurisdiction in the world. Most interesting Game of Life pattens are standardized expressions of mathematical fact, similar to formulas and equations, which are exempt from most (probably nearly all) intellectual property law.
That is true in theory, but unfortunately, not always in practice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by Sokwe » October 8th, 2021, 4:10 am

mniemiec wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 3:51 am
Sokwe wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 3:39 am
I'm not a lawyer, but I can still say with complete confidence that such a lawsuit would fail in virtually every jurisdiction in the world. Most interesting Game of Life pattens are standardized expressions of mathematical fact, similar to formulas and equations, which are exempt from most (probably nearly all) intellectual property law.
That is true in theory, but unfortunately, not always in practice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime
If someone manages to contrive an interesting pattern by encoding their intellectual property as a soup that is the first known pattern with a great great grandparent, but no great great great grandparent, then I might be concerned. Until then, I'm not going to worry about intellectual property law when it comes to Game of Life patterns
-Matthias Merzenich

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Scorbie
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by Scorbie » October 8th, 2021, 4:33 am

3. Yes I was expecting the community to realize the effort put here should be monetized. As I see it now - people are just not thinking anyone should monetize anything done here. As I said before - this is way worse than what I've expected to be the situation in this community.
AFAICT the community (including myself) is against prohibiting the use of mathematical facts, rather than monetizing as a whole.

What I'm not sure is, is simsim's idea of an NFT of a pattern

1. Something like a digital tradable card with a pattern drawn on it (which I think is okay)
so that anyone can use the pattern regardless of who owns the card (and more uses should increase the value of the card)

2. Or some sort of proprietary ownership to use a pattern (which I think is not okay, and doesn't really work with mathematical facts)

And I'm not sure why simsim implied 1 in their original post and then switched back to 2

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calcyman
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by calcyman » October 8th, 2021, 8:13 am

Scorbie wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 4:33 am
What I'm not sure is, is simsim's idea of an NFT of a pattern

1. Something like a digital tradable card with a pattern drawn on it (which I think is okay)
so that anyone can use the pattern regardless of who owns the card (and more uses should increase the value of the card)

2. Or some sort of proprietary ownership to use a pattern (which I think is not okay, and doesn't really work with mathematical facts)
I agree with both of these opinions: I think that 1 is okay and 2 is not okay (in the sense that it would likely be detrimental to the GoL community).
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

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simsim314
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by simsim314 » October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am

@scorbie I was never intending to talk about Proprietarianism until mniemic was completely fine with intellectual property of 3d models but not with NFTs. To this I tried to reply that it's not OK to have intellectual property instead of NFTs, and this ignorant approach respecting only forceful laws and not NFTs is just harming everyone and creating bad vibes. But no one cared - so I made a deal out of it. My main intention is and always was Cryptopia.

About mathematical facts - I already replied several times that CGOL is somewhere between Art and Software. It's not mathematics in the sense that any software is not mathematics. Unlike formulas in mathematics, in CGOL you run a simulation, this shows it's not a formula but an execution of idea inside a simulated environment, like any 3d CG art creation, and unlike formulas written in a book. Also Simon already published CGOL single arm recipes with GPL license, so it's not my idea that CGOL has copyrights restrictions. I very very doubt CGOL will convince anyone it's mathematics and not computer science or art. What would you say about the pattern: 99 bottles of beer on the wall, would you call it pure mathematics? If so show me something you will not call pure mathematics.
calcyman wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 8:13 am
in the sense that it would likely be detrimental to the GoL community
I agree, and therefor the reasonable and most viable path for monetization in CGOL community is NFT. I got really mad by mniemic's idea that it's completely fine to close your source and demand money, but not open your source and sell NFTs. I would say most of the people here having hard time to grasp the concept of NFT, and not attributing to it some random attributes that have very little to do with this technology, and a lot to do of bad implementation of it in some communities, that doesn't imply anything to our community or to this technology in general.

I regard NFTs as completely viable modern option to sponsor creators, and we are lucky to have it instead of commercial licensing and other, way less favorable and not open source friendly monetization options.

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by hotdogPi » October 8th, 2021, 11:46 am

Have you considered publishing research papers?

You could also make a smartphone puzzle app: "place three cells to create a period-14 oscillator", "place two gliders to create a queen bee shuttle", "swap two rows or two columns to create a 2c/5 spaceship", "rotate a 4×4 square to create a block-laying switch engine". Don't just make a clone of Golly, though.

There could also be a Steam game similar to lifecompetes but 1 vs 1, where you get patterns of rare objects in your inventory provided the object is natural and you win the round, and those can be traded and sold on the Steam market.
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries

Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576

S: SKOP
G: gun

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by mniemiec » October 8th, 2021, 12:05 pm

hotdogPi wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 11:46 am
Have you considered publishing research papers?
I actually did this, three times.

The first time was in (I think) 1976, when several people were invited to write Life-related articles for Byte magazine, for which we were paid industry-standard rates for writers.

The second time was for CA98, for which I received no direct compensation, but for which participants DID get an expense-paid trip to the conference, which I thought was more than fair.

The third time, I was invited to contribute an article to a book on CA, which is published by Springer-Verlag, for which I received no compensation, and not even a copy of the book (I had to spend my own money to order it from Amazon, so I could have my own copy of my own work). They own the copyright, but "graciously" gave authors the right to publish their own articles, as long as it isn't in their typogaphic style. I get how some circles pay people in "exposure", but from my exposure, I didn't get any job offers; just offers to contribute more articles for more exposure, which I politely decline and/or ignore.

I have no problem putting in effort for nothing, to benefit the community. I do have problems putting in effort for nothing, that somebody else (like a publisher) can monetize for their own profit.

(I'm not saying that this necessarily has anything to do with how NFTs would work, but it's a part of the equation that I have a lot of problems with.)

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pcallahan
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by pcallahan » October 8th, 2021, 12:09 pm

simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 2:48 am
1. People are not staying here for long, partially because they see no money in their effort.
...

3. Yes I was expecting the community to realize the effort put here should be monetized. As I see it now - people are just not thinking anyone should monetize anything done here. As I said before - this is way worse than what I've expected to be the situation in this community.
I disagree with your reasoning. The limited intrinsic interest (niche appeal) is what fails to draw people in the first place, and the lack of retention is due to the fact that most people (outside our group) see little value other than watching some Life or other CA patterns run, which they may do a few times and don't need to join to do. Anyone who tries to read a thread will either be intrigued and put in the effort to learn what people are discussing and stay, or in other cases simply decide that this isn't the place for them. (A comparably advanced chess forum may do better because there is over a thousand years of tradition and many people around the world grow up learning to play.)

You pose a hypothetical case of someone who could contribute to this forum at the level that's expected, but is held back by the prospect that their work will be available for free. I think this is a small intersection of sets. You might be in it. Those of us replying to you are not. I don't think there is a flood of people out there who agree with you but aren't here because of the lack of monetization. It would be interesting to hear otherwise (are there lurkers on this thread? Speak up!)

I also disagree that monetization is a natural expectation. Most social media posts are offered for free (or worse, somebody monetizes it, just not the content creator). Individual blogs may or may not attempt to monetize with ads. People expect to be able to monetize their YouTube videos, but not everyone who tries can make much. Actually my daughter was able to make several thousand dollars with a how-to video on using your phone to make animation, and much less for some animations she's made that were a lot more work to complete. It's pretty random, and she would not have made anything without several years of promoting her channel and picking up followers. It's hard work.

A lot of software with clear practical applications is hard to monetize because of competition. In this case, there is no clear practical application. It's basic research. I think it's important research, particularly when it demonstrates advances in computer search or results in self-replicating systems that are way ahead of dreams of molecular self-assembly (nanotech) but might at least illustrate design principles (though it's unclear how much any of it would translate).

I realize you explained that you're not just looking for a way to draw income but a way to be compensated specifically for this work. I don't think there is a way that works. If this work found a home in academia (which seems more appropriate to me than a market), you could publish papers and claim official firsts, but it's doubtful you'd make much money that way.

You can already try to make money on derived works (as I know I said already). I know you (Michael) have done some YouTube videos. Are any of those monetized? Do they bring in much? A CGoL pattern of sufficient interest could be introduced with a video, or how-tos on search and engineered patterns. If the narration is engaging enough, people will watch and that will be monetized. I don't object to that. Does anyone? However, I think it is still not going to bring in much.

By contrast, I think NFTs and proprietary patterns are non-starters. Suppose you announce a result that exists but require payment to see it. Nobody here is going to pay (at least I doubt it). Few other people would be interested at all. Experts are more likely to attempt to reverse engineer your claim than pay to see it (that makes it a puzzle). If you simply work in private and don't let on what you're doing, that will have an even worse effect. In short, I don't see how a monetization model helps what we do here and I can see many ways it hurts.
Last edited by pcallahan on October 8th, 2021, 1:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by pcallahan » October 8th, 2021, 12:19 pm

mniemiec wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 12:05 pm
hotdogPi wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 11:46 am
Have you considered publishing research papers?
I actually did this, three times.
Me too. I am second author on a paper by Nick Gotts since I did some work finding small infinite growth patterns and ruling them out for 9 cells or less. I also published a paper with David Buckingham. I'm very proud of these, but I was not paid for any of it. I cannot say there was ever a time I would have refused to be paid for work on CGoL. I just don't expect anyone to offer.
mniemiec wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 12:05 pm
I get how some circles pay people in "exposure", but from my exposure, I didn't get any job offers; just offers to contribute more articles for more exposure, which I politely decline and/or ignore.
In a similar vein, I was asked to contribute this article to math.com over 20 years ago explaining Life at a level kids could understand. To be honest, I was a little reluctant, because I was pretty busy with paid work, but it seemed nice to get a little exposure (back then, it was common for people to casually come across my old web site). I would not have had the time to pursue unpaid "exposure" even if offered. (Some of my writing was edited and cutesified if that's a word. I still thought it was a great outlet to introduce the topic to a new audience.)

That page is monetized with ads now (of course) and sadly the animation no longer works, so it is not really the work I contributed.

Update: I don't want to hog the thread with a triple post, but I had another comment about CGoL vs. chess. I can go into a public library and may find an entire shelf of books on chess, beginner and advanced, old and new. If I want to find out about Game of Life or cellular automata, I may be very lucky to stumble upon a copy of The Recursive Universe or Winning Ways (the latter I have only seen in university libraries, and I'm not sure I've seen the former anywhere; a friend had a copy in the 80s and Dover has reissued). Maybe a big library has Byte and SciAm going back to the 70s, but you wouldn't know it if you weren't looking.

So it is really not reasonable to compare any level of monetization of chess with CGoL. Chess is highly promoted in culture and in popular publications. It even gets media attention (Bobby Fischer, "One Night in Bangkok"). For all that, I still think it's a tough road to make any money at chess.

Monetizing CGoL is frankly putting the cart before the horse. You need to publicize first. Then you can monetize. This ties into the old "broader audience" thread. I am not that interested in drawing a trickle of funds from a small, reluctant group of people annoyed at me for asking. I would very much like to see more people aware of it and I wonder how to do that. (NFTs might work but only as a publicity stunt, and most of the press would be negative.)

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by dvgrn » October 8th, 2021, 1:23 pm

simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am
About mathematical facts - I already replied several times that CGOL is somewhere between Art and Software.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable position. I certainly won't disagree with that.

With software the trickiest intellectual-property problem is not copyrights, but patents. If a programmer writes some code and wants to sell it, it's perfectly reasonable to expect that someone else won't come along and copy-and-paste the code and try to sell the plagiarized copy... and so we have copyrights. Things get a lot murkier, though, when someone else writes different code from the ground up to perform the exact same task -- or even, in extreme cases where there's really only one way to do something, writes exactly the same code, but without referring to or copying to the previous code.

In cases like these, especially where there's a software patent and a lot of money is involved, people very quickly get into enormous acrimonious arguments about things that aren't actually worth arguing about -- because there isn't really a clear right or wrong answer, it's just whatever the lawyers decide.

In the CGoL field, where the amount of actual money at stake is reassuringly close to zero, I'm really hoping to be able to continue to avoid wasting any of my time on that kind of endless legalistic wrangling.

Paul just mentioned reverse-engineering a pattern rather than paying for it, and posting the solution -- basically, doing the same work as the original creator, but then making it available for free. This is the same kind of thing that happens with open-source versions of software all the time -- OpenOffice or LibreOffice as replacements for Microsoft Office, and so on. So --

Question 1: How Would Rediscoveries Work?
@simsim314, in your view, if a pattern is copyrighted by Proprietarian Lifenthusiast, but then is later rediscovered by Enthusian Lifenthusiast without E.L. even knowing about the copyrighted version, then is it now okay for everyone to use that pattern, or are they still in danger of being targeted by lawsuits? Does the answer change if E.L. did know about the existence of P.L.'s pattern, but nothing more than that?

Knowing that something is possible is a very big hint in this business -- it's a lot easier to rediscover a loafer or a copperhead than to discover it in the first place -- but Proprietarian pattern ownership or licensing would be a somewhat less unpleasant system if any Enthusian rediscovery could make a copyright permanently irrelevant, without a lot of bickering or threatening court cases.
simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am
What would you say about the pattern: 99 bottles of beer on the wall, would you call it pure mathematics? If so show me something you will not call pure mathematics.
The pattern itself is one of many possible representations of an abstract program that you wrote. According to the current conventions for these things, you could have added a copyright notice to your "99bottles.apg" code. That would mean that nobody should publish it somewhere like a forum post or a CGoL textbook without your permission. You could perfectly well try to sell the rights to publish "99bottles.apg", though I'm not sure where a buyer could be found or what they would do with it.

However, the actual CGoL pattern is, again by common convention, an uncopyrightable mathematical object. If someone has access to the pattern in any form, then they can put those ON and OFF cells in their Life simulator and do whatever they want with them. It sounds like you're trying to change the common convention here, but the fact remains that this is the common convention, and has been for the last fifty years.

Question 2: Where Exactly Is The Line?
Now, I could quite easily write my own APGsembly code to print out the "99 Bottles of Beer on a Wall" song, and it would be different code and therefore a different pattern, but it would print out the same lyrics... maybe in a different font, since that's an easy adjustment also. There's no end of small or large changes that could be made.

I don't believe that any of the possible variations should be treated any differently from any of the other variations, but that's mostly because I don't think it's possible to copyright an actual Life pattern in the first place -- and luckily (from my point of view) it doesn't seem like that would ever be a worthwhile thing to do, even if it were actually possible. If there is a line that can be drawn here between "derivative" works and new patterns, where in Conway's name is it -- and will any two Lifenthusiasts ever be able to agree on that point?
simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am
calcyman wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 8:13 am
in the sense that it would likely be detrimental to the GoL community
I agree, and therefor the reasonable and most viable path for monetization in CGOL community is NFT.
Your "therefore" does not in any way follow from the antecedent. It's perfectly possible that neither commercial licensing nor NFTs are a viable path for monetization of CGoL patterns. This seems to be a very common opinion among people who have responded to this thread so far.

Question 3: How Can You Be So Sure?
simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am
I regard NFTs as completely viable modern option to sponsor creators.
I don't understand why you keep saying this without giving any new evidence. How do you know that NFTs will work to sponsor creators of CGoL patterns specifically, and how do you know that the addition of NFTs won't do significant damage to the conwaylife.com community? Why should your strong opinion on these two points carry any more weight than everyone else's equally strong opinions?

Question 4: What's the Next Step?
When you introduced NFTs, you specifically said that they "obviously" can't work without community approval and engagement. It is increasingly obvious that community approval and engagement are simply not there for NFTs. Given that fact, what would be a reasonable next step for you to take?

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by calcyman » October 8th, 2021, 1:42 pm

simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am
@scorbie I was never intending to talk about Proprietarianism until mniemic was completely fine with intellectual property of 3d models but not with NFTs. To this I tried to reply that it's not OK to have intellectual property instead of NFTs, and this ignorant approach respecting only forceful laws and not NFTs is just harming everyone and creating bad vibes. But no one cared - so I made a deal out of it. My main intention is and always was Cryptopia.
Ah, good. I suspected that was the case (that the Proprietaria suggestion was merely playing Devil's Advocate).

I don't think that I've seen anyone in this thread actively opposed to allowing Cryptopia to happen. In particular:
  • There have certainly been lots of people saying that they personally wouldn't want to deal with NFTs. In a similar vein, I dislike the taste and texture of rice, so I wouldn't eat it myself, but I'm not going to object to other people eating rice.
  • Scorbie's clarification is important here: there are objections to the rights to a pattern being sold as an NFT. But that's not what's happening here; the thing that's being transferred is a 'digital trading card' of the pattern.
  • Most of the pushback has been against your Devil's Advocate position of Proprietaria, but it sounds like that was never the original intention anyway.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by pcallahan » October 8th, 2021, 4:16 pm

calcyman wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 1:42 pm
I don't think that I've seen anyone in this thread actively opposed to allowing Cryptopia to happen. In particular:
I had to double check to be sure but:
Cryptopia: essentially following the same template as Enthusia, where all patterns are still MIT-licenced, but the discoverers of patterns (if they choose to) can occasionally mint NFTs of their discoveries which they can sell on OpenSea to earn money. Ownership of an NFT in this world is a status symbol and/or speculative asset, but does not have any relationship with the ability to use the corresponding pattern (because the pattern can be freely used anyway without restriction, as in Enthusia). The hope is that Cryptopia will behave pretty much identical to Enthusia, except Lifenthusiasts can gain compensation from cryptoasset speculators.
Yes, I'm totally fine with this. My only caveat is that I would be very surprised if anyone makes money this way. I believe that any kind of derivative creative product (including art or instructional videos) would only be successful if it provides tangible value to the purchaser, unlike NFTs.

This is a far cry from saying nobody should try. Since Michael has also said he likes Cryptopia, is there anything blocking him from trying it out? I am not a purist and if it really works, I might try it myself.

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by wwei47 » October 8th, 2021, 4:56 pm

I have just one reservation about Cryptopia.
wwei47 wrote:
October 4th, 2021, 12:43 pm
This. People will hide their partial patterns so they can mint their completed ones.
But maybe there's a way to address it.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by dvgrn » October 8th, 2021, 5:07 pm

calcyman wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 1:42 pm
I don't think that I've seen anyone in this thread actively opposed to allowing Cryptopia to happen. In particular:
  • There have certainly been lots of people saying that they personally wouldn't want to deal with NFTs. In a similar vein, I dislike the taste and texture of rice, so I wouldn't eat it myself, but I'm not going to object to other people eating rice...
That's about right. I think I've posted some of the strongest objections, but I'm just an anti-Proprietarian for the most part, not an anti-Cryptopian -- as long as I don't personally have to wade through too many annoying NFT sales pitches.

I might possibly be a little grumpy about very busy active NFT discussions on the conwaylife.com forums, especially the interesting kind of flamewar discussions that make people report other people's posts a lot, and thereby distract the moderators from the usual spammer-squashing patrol. NFTs aren't cellular automata, so they're not really on topic for the forums. So I hope that NFT trading will mostly all happen on a new Discord server somewhere that I don't have to moderate.

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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by praosylen » October 8th, 2021, 5:37 pm

dvgrn wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 1:23 pm
simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am
About mathematical facts - I already replied several times that CGOL is somewhere between Art and Software.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable position. I certainly won't disagree with that.
If you won't disagree here, I will. To me the clearest evidence is the nature of our community itself. The software community is mixed in general — there's plenty of proprietary software and plenty of open-source too — but by default software is treated as proprietary unless otherwise stated. Artists generally take some ownership over their art — they'll sometimes allow derivative art, and of course there's fair use, but in the artistic community ownership is the default, and it's not just illegal but, importantly, also extremely bad form to copy someone's work for use in your own without their express permission.

This is not how this community works, or has ever worked. We freely share patterns, and have for 51 years. If we claim any "ownership" of them, it's only to keep track of who discovered them when, and to decide who gets to name them. The 2-engine Cordership isn't something I would ever think of suggesting I owned — it's simply the smallest-known switch-engine-based spaceship (and, quite likely, the smallest possible), which to me makes it a mathematical fact. It is not "art" or "software" — I couldn't even comprehend why I would claim copyright on it, or what doing so would even mean. I am in fact delighted to have seen it reused in so many other places and patterns, and would never expect even to be notified of it happening, let alone paid for it — that idea had literally never even come to my mind until I started writing this post.

While large constructed patterns are somewhat different, the technologies used in them are invariably shared freely and usually enthusiastically with the community (if not, it's typically a question of someone being so tired of working on them by the end that they can't be bothered to go back through and explain them) — and I expect this sentiment is shared by most of our community, especially among the large subset who care about optimizing problems to within an inch of their life. If most of the community sees Life this way, chances are, it's because it is this way, and one rogue community member can't suddenly change that by insisting their patterns are special somehow and are actually art, unless they're actually designing patterns almost entirely based on personal criteria of artistic merit instead of based on the traditional standards of optimality, innovativeness, reusability, and What The Community Thinks Would Be Cool. (The only person I can think of who regularly fits this bill would be Otismo, and their art is perfectly worthy of being treated as art — it's just that what they're doing is something completely different from what, say, a small P120 glider gun is, or even something like a caterloopillar, especially since it answered an open question in the community. I'll grant you that Remini probably counts as art in some sense, though...)

That's not saying the legal system would necessarily see it that way, of course. But the point I'm trying to make is that, in almost all cases, treating patterns as art or even software (and thus as being copyrightable) is wrong — hopefully also illegal, but more importantly absurd, counterfactual, and anathema to everything this community has been for over half a century.
dvgrn wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 1:23 pm
With software the trickiest intellectual-property problem is not copyrights, but patents. If a programmer writes some code and wants to sell it, it's perfectly reasonable to expect that someone else won't come along and copy-and-paste the code and try to sell the plagiarized copy... and so we have copyrights. Things get a lot murkier, though, when someone else writes different code from the ground up to perform the exact same task -- or even, in extreme cases where there's really only one way to do something, writes exactly the same code, but without referring to or copying to the previous code.

In cases like these, especially where there's a software patent and a lot of money is involved, people very quickly get into enormous acrimonious arguments about things that aren't actually worth arguing about -- because there isn't really a clear right or wrong answer, it's just whatever the lawyers decide.

In the CGoL field, where the amount of actual money at stake is reassuringly close to zero, I'm really hoping to be able to continue to avoid wasting any of my time on that kind of endless legalistic wrangling.
Decent points, although my personal hope is that neither copyrights or patents would hold — there's never a guarantee that the legal system comes to the right conclusion, of course. The idea of legalistic wrangling in this community is really an absurd one, it's true.

I think the point a lot of us are missing here (I think you touched on it a bit, which I appreciate, but I want to expand on) is that even if it ended up being legal to copyright or patent patterns, that wouldn't make it right. I have the suspicion that simsim314 is generally in, or at least close to, both the "might makes right" camp and the "legality = morality" camp, but in this specific context, this is unambiguously a very dangerous idea. The legal system is absolutely falliable, especially about a topic like CGoL lawyers and judges would have very little capacity to understand. Since policymakers are people, and the legal system is made of people, here's nothing "magical" about something being Written Into Law (or into precedent) as being legal — or the absence of it being illegal — that somehow forgives its immorality; for a very random example, just because you're legally allowed to show up at someone's wedding (provided you were invited) and publicly insult the couple in your speech doesn't make you any less of a jerk for doing it, or mean anyone has to forgive you for it.

Similarly, if a court were to decide to uphold a copyright (or patent) on a highly useful pattern, that doesn't change just how shockingly wrong it would be to deliberately, singlehandedly ruin the longstanding collaborative atmosphere of this community, something that, as it's been made very clear in prior posts on this thread, is likely to essentially destroy the community, as even (and perhaps especially) long-time, experienced contributors will most likely lose interest in making new patterns if what they would normally want to make is suddenly paywalled. Maybe there would be still be some sustained interest, but if proprietary patterns catch on, enforced obsolescence seems more likely just to kill the community altogether, since even if people switch over and start buying patterns they won't be able to share their discoveries/constructions with others.

To simsim314: the fact that you would even threaten to bring this about in a community you've seemed to care about is almost incomprehensible to me. I used to respect what you've done for this community — but I, and many others, would most likely never forgive it if you carried through with this threat and never went back on it. I don't think you want to be remembered as the person who brought down a thriving half-century-old community, whose symbol is the symbol of hacker culture, by forcibly introducing proprietary licensing into it. Honestly, I could see this getting into fairly major news publications if you went through with it, just because of the symbolism of it, as long as someone in their circles caught wind of it and brought it to their attention — and the coverage would not be positive. I also suspect the mathematics community would not appreciate it — both for the legal precedent it could set, and for what kinds of things it suggests you might be willing to do in their community in the future.

(I realized as I wrote this that the above kind of sounds like a counter-threat — that's very much not the way I meant it, and I certainly don't have any plans to go around bad-mouthing you; that would be petty and wouldn't solve anything. In any case I don't know who would listen to me if I tried that. Instead, I mean it as an honest warning — I don't think you've fully considered the personal or interpersonal consequences of carrying through with your threat.)

I'm sorry to have worded this so strongly. I don't normally use this kind of language or rhetoric over simple internet drama — but to me this isn't just simple internet drama; it's a question of whether this academic community (yes, I would call this an academic community, in some meaningful sense of the term), with its longstanding tradition of openness and collaboration, can survive in its current form, and you're the one with the most power right now over whether this community lives or dies. (Even if it's still a hypothetical whether pattern copyrights hold or not, it's not unlikely enough that I'm unwilling to put things in these terms.) I really hope, for the sake of everyone on here, that you're willing to drop the threat.

Also, if you want to develop a NFT-based monetization system for your own discoveries, none of us have any reason to stop you, for what it's worth.
dvgrn wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 1:23 pm
simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am
I agree, and therefor the reasonable and most viable path for monetization in CGOL community is NFT.
Your "therefore" does not in any way follow from the antecedent. It's perfectly possible that neither commercial licensing nor NFTs are a viable path for monetization of CGoL patterns. This seems to be a very common opinion among people who have responded to this thread so far.

Question 3: How Can You Be So Sure?
simsim314 wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 9:43 am
I regard NFTs as completely viable modern option to sponsor creators.
I don't understand why you keep saying this without giving any new evidence. How do you know that NFTs will work to sponsor creators of CGoL patterns specifically, and how do you know that the addition of NFTs won't do significant damage to the conwaylife.com community? Why should your strong opinion on these two points carry any more weight than everyone else's equally strong opinions?

Question 4: What's the Next Step?
When you introduced NFTs, you specifically said that they "obviously" can't work without community approval and engagement. It is increasingly obvious that community approval and engagement are simply not there for NFTs. Given that fact, what would be a reasonable next step for you to take?
Very true. The whole idea of NFT-based monetization on a community-wide scale is essentially a big handwave at this point. It is very clear that people are at least sometimes willing to pay a lot of money for NFTs — the issue is, what is an NFT really supposed to mean? Simply minting an NFT does not confer ownership of anything (other than the NFT itself); that requires some source of authority to back it up, whether that's a government or some sort of community consensus. Neither of those exist yet for this community.

So what does it even mean to own a NFT of a pattern? Is ownership simply the right to sell that NFT? If so, that seems tautological. I do see a (highly speculative) use case for NFTs in pattern attribution, which might be able to tie in with ownership in some sense: patterns could be minted as NFTs by their discoverers as a means to ensure that there was an unalterable record of their discovery in the blockchain — and theoretically these NFTs could be used to assign some sort of extrinsic value to discoveries. But in my view, NFT ownership should not imply any sort of control over how the pattern is used, for the same reasons that proprietary patterns should not exist (even though in this system it would be technically possible to confer some degree of control over future discoveries using them, through the magic of cryptographic hashes — provided the future discoverers cared about getting their discoveries in the blockchain, of course).

The problem is, what intrinsic or extrinsic value do pattern NFTs have then? Whether or not they're useful for attribution, essentially they can't be anything but meaningless collectibles, as long as the community remains opposed to giving people control over "their" patterns and how they're used and distributed (which will not change — and, as above, even if it did change and NFTs gave people control, it would only be over other NFTs, so they're still only valuable if people agree they are). There's nothing intrinsically wrong with meaningless collectibles in my opinion — in a highly reductionist sense, that's all that money is — but I don't think it's guaranteed that there's a sustainable market for them.

However, if it does turn out there are enough people out there willing to buy NFTs of patterns, I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea. I would imagine NFTs minted/sold by discoverers would be much more valuable than those minted by random people seeking to capitalize on others' work, at least if we marketed them right. Huge discoveries, the types that make it to small news sites, might end up being able to be sold for a fair bit, I don't know — I doubt it would ever be enough to make a living off of Life, but it might be enough to make certain discoverers feel rewarded for their efforts (although I expect that most of the community will still just be satisfied with community acknowledgement, and regard NFT cash as anywhere from a nice bonus to an unnecessary distraction).

(The main problem I see with this is that discoverers who don't want to deal with anything NFT-related will still have to deal with other people making NFTs of their patterns, which would be more valuable than normal in the absence of an "official copy". I don't see a good solution for this problem, and it's likely to be a sizable sticking point for the community. That said, and as much as I hate to say it, pattern licensing could potentially solve this issue, if it turns out people do legally have copyright over their discoveries, which I doubt but is certainly possible — discoverers could explicitly release their work for any use other than NFTs — but pattern licensing is essentially the can of worms we're trying to avoid here.)

(Of course, this leaves aside the moral question of whether it's right to sell people essentially-worthless things. I suppose if people get enough enjoyment and satisfaction out of their hobby of collecting CA NFTs, then there really isn't anything wrong, since they're not truly worthless anymore — but part of me still feels like it would all just be a scam, I do wonder if most people will just be regretting their purchases after a while, and I would feel pretty weird about having it be an official, community-sponsored enterprise.)

(The last problem I foresee is about the amount of effort it would take, as a community, to market these. You mentioned in your latest post, after the one I quoted, that trading NFTs on a Discord server might be the best approach — to me, that sounds like a highly ineffective way to reach the would-be market of NFT buyers, and I would expect it would need to either be on an existing NFT-dedicated website, or, probably more effective, a combination of that and our own site. But the amount of time and effort it would take to set this up, get a website up and running, and create effective branding and marketing would likely be prohibitive. Existing NFT trading platforms aren't something I don't know very much about, but I do know very well that selling products online effectively is highly difficult, and takes a lot of active effort, and familiarity with web marketing, SEO, etc., to pull off. I don't know that enough of this community would have the time and the inclination to do this, especially right as many of the most prominent, dedicated members are in the midst of trying to get a textbook edited and published. )
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The only decision I made was made
of flowers, to jump universes to one of springtime in
a land of former winter, where no invisible walls stood,
or could stand for more than a few hours at most...

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pcallahan
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by pcallahan » October 8th, 2021, 5:55 pm

A for awesome wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 5:37 pm
Honestly, I could see this getting into fairly major news publications if you went through with it, just because of the symbolism of it, as long as someone in their circles caught wind of it and brought it to their attention — and the coverage would not be positive.
Careful. You're close to persuading me on the grounds that "any publicity is good publicity." :wink: I'm going to say this scenario is also unlikely. It could be the death of a community without any mitigating factors at all, including the thrill of being covered in broadcast news.

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dvgrn
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by dvgrn » October 8th, 2021, 6:38 pm

A for awesome wrote:
October 8th, 2021, 5:37 pm
You mentioned in your latest post, after the one I quoted, that trading NFTs on a Discord server might be the best approach — to me, that sounds like a highly ineffective way to reach the would-be market of NFT buyers, and I would expect it would need to either be on an existing NFT-dedicated website, or, probably more effective, a combination of that and our own site.
Right -- I definitely was not trying to suggest a complete and viable model of CGoL NFT-trading communications.

I'm just saying that the hypothetical complete and viable model of CGoL NFT-trading should please not include lots of discussion on the conwaylife.com forums ... because the purpose of the conwaylife.com forums is to collect occasional posts about cellular automata, not to host constant sales pitches or other "hype" about, well, NFTs.

For anyone who hasn't seen the last CGoL NFT thing -- there was some nervousness and worry about this on the ConwayLife Lounge, back in May-June or so -- here's a good starting point for exploring "NFTKey" and their attempt at monetization, or at least at "hype", for CGoL NFTs:

https://nftkey.app/collections/life/start/

There are links on the right to Twitter and Discord discussion areas. They still seem to be trying to market the 17x17 "BIO" Life forms on Twitter as of September, but the related "Automations" Discord server hasn't seen much activity for a while.

Theoretically once people buy and mint 10,000 17x17 patterns (that's it, no more ever, yay artificial scarcity) then apparently the folks in charge want to put them all in a big 100x100 array and optimize this "Superorganism" so it lasts longer ... or something like that. The buyers get to set up their own patterns. People have only bought a few hundred in the last six months or so.

It all seems kind of depressing to try to sift through, since... um... that's not exactly the best way to make a maximally long-lasting 1700x1700 Life pattern, let alone a maximally interesting one.

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