One Glider Seeds

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.
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dvgrn
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 1st, 2020, 10:08 am

I think the new 44P5H2V0 synthesis means it would be the cheapest 2c/5 that we could build a 1G seed for, to allow for an orthogonal target-push trick using a slower spaceship followed by a faster spaceship. A c/3 dart would be quite a bit cheaper, but would also require waiting around a proportionally longer before sending a following *WSS, to get a target at any given distance.

The 44P5H2V0 allows for both standard options -- placing an object with or without destruction of the spaceship:

Code: Select all

x = 19, y = 43, rule = B3/S23
7bo5bo$6bobo3bobo$5b2ob2ob2ob2o$5bo2bo3bo2bo$3b2ob2o5b2ob2o$4b2o9b2o$
5b2o7b2o$6bo7bo$3b2o11b2o$4b3o7b3o$7bobobobo15$3o$o2bo$o$o3bo$o$bobo7$
16b3o$15bo2bo$18bo$14bo3bo$18bo$15bobo!
But I think that recent experience with the c/4 diagonal wickstretcher might have moved us past this kind of spaceship-chasing-spaceship design. The fastest possible Orthogonoid would be one using a blinker puffer to do its target-object push.

Besides the blinker-puffer seed, I guess there's also a bit of work to do to complete a toolkit for a 35-degree slow^2 elbow. For maximum speed, the construction recipe will have to be made of *WSSes that don't overlap the blinker puffer or its burning fuse; analogous to the c/4 diagonal wickstretcher, the blinker-puffer seed will be built and triggered first, then the construction recipe will be sent, and finally the fuse will be lit at the right time to stop the blinker puffer at the target location.

However, I think it's not necessary to build a whole new slmake-ish database to construct arbitrary objects by splitting and moving a target block directly with *WSSes. Instead we can find a minimal set of *WSS recipes that produce a universal set of block moves and glider outputs. This will be the slow^2 elbow, and it will produce a standard glider slow salvo that will do the actual construction.

This will be inefficient, but not terribly so. For sufficiently fast Speed Orthogonoids the cost of the construction recipe won't make a significant difference, because we'll send the recipe and then wait around a long time to light the fuse anyway.

A good starting point would be a standard 13-glider construction for the fuse-stoppable version of a blinker puffer 1, which looks like this:

Code: Select all

x = 39, y = 53, rule = B3/S23
35bobo$35b2o$36bo5$19bo$2bo17b2o$obo16b2o$b2o$36bo$35bo$35b3o$10b2o2b
2o$11b2obobo$10bo3bo14$17b2o$18b2o$17bo6$34b3o$34bo2bo$34bo$34bo3bo$
34bo$35bobo3$33b3o$33bo2bo$33bo$33bo3bo$33bo3bo$33bo$34bobo!
Looks like this can be reduced as usual to a constellation plus some number of synchronized gliders, eventually reducible to 1G. There are a couple of HWSSes in there, though, and there aren't a lot of known edge-shooting HWSS seeds -- the 2-object 12x12 collision enumeration didn't turn up any clean HWSSes at all.

Anyone want to contribute a move in the Optimization Game here, with a reasonable single-digit number of synchronized gliders?

EDIT: There's actually a very nice two-object edgy seed for an HWSS in Mark Niemiec's database, but it doesn't seem to be quite compatible with the recipe that adds the central unstable xWSS, so something will have to get reworked somewhere:

Code: Select all

x = 46, y = 17, rule = B3/S23
2o18bo$o19b3o15b2o$3bo19bo14b2o2b2o$2b2o18b2o18b2o8$2bo19bo19bo$3bo19b
o19bo$b3o17b3o17b3o$5bo19bo19bo$5bo19bo19bo$5bo19bo19bo!
This is really the same seed as the one used in the Centipede and Silverfish (the half-blockade version shown at right above) -- so we'll have to get an edgy HWSS from somewhere else. There are certainly recipes that work, but they seem a bit too expensive in terms of synchronized gliders:

Code: Select all

x = 34, y = 41, rule = B3/S23
9bo$10b2o$9b2o4$4bobo$5b2o$5bo$20bobo$21b2o$21bo2$18b2o8bo$17bo2bo7bob
o$17bo2bo7b2o$18b2o6$19bo$19b2o$bo16bobo$b2o$obo3b3o22b3o$8bo21bo2bo$
7bo25bo$29bo3bo$33bo$30bobo3$30b3o$29bo2bo$32bo$28bo3bo$28bo3bo$32bo$
29bobo!

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Goldtiger997
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by Goldtiger997 » September 1st, 2020, 11:16 am

dvgrn wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 10:08 am
Anyone want to contribute a move in the Optimization Game here, with a reasonable single-digit number of synchronized gliders?
Here's 6 synchronized gliders which is reasonably good:

Code: Select all

x = 82, y = 78, rule = B3/S23
70bobo$70b2o$71bo5$81bo$79b2o$80b2o25$26b2o$26b2o2$35b2o6b2o$34bobo5bo
bo$33bobo6b2o$34bo$50bo$41b2o7bo$40bobo7bo$41bo5$29bo$30bo5b2o$28b3o5b
2o2b2o$40b2o11$43bo$43bo$43bo$bo$b2o$obo5$80b2o$79b2o$11b3o67bo$13bo$
12bo!

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dvgrn
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 1st, 2020, 12:10 pm

Goldtiger997 wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 11:16 am
Here's 6 synchronized gliders which is reasonably good...
For only half of their usual fee of $0, the Discord CGonsuLting Group produced a 5-synched-G solution based on this:

Code: Select all

x = 65, y = 56, rule = B3/S23
48bobo$48b2o$49bo11$62bo$62bobo$62b2o8$15b2o$15b2o2$24b2o6b2o$23bobo5b
obo$22bobo6b2o5b2o3b2o$23bo14bobo2b2o$39b2o$30b2o$29bobo12bo$30bo11b3o
$41bo$41b2o3$50b2o$46b2o2b2o$46b2o4$bo$b2o$obo2$47bo$47bobo$47b2o$44bo
$44bo$11b3o30bo$13bo$12bo!
EDIT: 4-synched-G, again from the Discord CGonsuLting Group:

Code: Select all

x = 54, y = 44, rule = B3/S23
4bo$2bobo$3b2o$51bo$51bobo$51b2o12$2b2o$2b2o2b2o19b2o3b2o$6b2o19bobo2b
2o$28b2o2$21b2o10bo$22bo8b3o$3bo16bo9bo$4bo15b2o8b2o$2b3o2$39b2o$35b2o
2b2o$9bo25b2o$9bo$9bo6$36bo$36bobo$36b2o$33bo$33bo$33bo![/b]

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Kazyan
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by Kazyan » September 1st, 2020, 1:33 pm

4 synchronized gliders wired up into a functioning seed:

Code: Select all

x = 71, y = 86, rule = B3/S23
14bo$13bobo$13bo2bo$14b2o$9b2o$8bobo$9bo3$57b2o$56bobo$56b2o3$52b2o$7b
2o42bobo$b2o3bobo4b2o36b2o$obo3b2o5b2o2b2o19b2o3b2o$bo15b2o19bobo2b2o$
39b2o2$32b2o10bo$33bo8b3o$31bo9bo$31b2o8b2o2$69bo$50b2o16bobo$46b2o2b
2o17bo$20bo25b2o$20bo$20bo3$67b2o$66bo2bo$66bobo$67bo3$44bo$44bo$44bo
6$44b2o$44bobo$45bobo$46bo3$42bo$41bobo$42bo7$48b2o$47bo2bo$47bobo$48b
o3$49b2o$48bo2bo$49bobo$50bo11$36b2o$35bobo$37bo!
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dvgrn
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 1st, 2020, 4:50 pm

Kazyan wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 1:33 pm
4 synchronized gliders wired up into a functioning seed:

Code: Select all

x = 71, y = 86, rule = B3/S23 ...
Nice work! I fiddled around with it just a little bit, and it ended up smaller but a few objects more expensive:

Code: Select all

x = 71, y = 69, rule = B3/S23
14bo$13bobo$13bo2bo$14b2o$9b2o$8bobo$9bo3$57b2o$56bobo$56b2o3$52b2o$7b
2o42bobo$b2o3bobo4b2o36b2o$obo3b2o5b2o2b2o19b2o3b2o$bo15b2o19bobo2b2o$
39b2o2$32b2o10bo$33bo8b3o$31bo9bo$31b2o8b2o2$69bo$50b2o16bobo$46b2o2b
2o17bo$20bo25b2o$20bo$20bo3$67b2o$66bo2bo$66bobo$67bo3$44bo$44bo$44bo$
22b2o$21bo2bo4bo$22bobo3bobo$17b2o4bo3bo2bo$13b2o2b2o9b2o13bo$13b2o27b
obo$43bobo$44b2o$38bo$37bobo$38bo6$29bo4b2o$28bobo3b2o$29b2o2$13b3o$
13bo2bo$13bo$13bo3bo$13bo$14bobo!
Years ago knightlife showed that MWSSes could be turned into gliders and back with just a few blocks, so that conversion is included above... in case it turns out to be a good idea for some reason.

That MWSS can't really be the first one in a single-channel stream of MWSSes, unless the seed is expanded to build a lot more upward *WSSes to build an MWSS-to-G and associated elbow out of the leftovers from the fuse burning out. That doesn't seem very reasonable, compared to building *WSSes on different lanes using a regular glider-based single-channel elbow back at the blinker puffer seed location.

The universal helix has four additional *WSSes to do the cleanup, but maybe we can get away with less than that?

Code: Select all

x = 59, y = 133, rule = LifeHistory
43.A$36.3A3.3A$30.A5.A2BA.BAB2A$29.3A3.BA3B.2B3A$28.BAB2A2.BA3BA2B3A$
28.2B3A.3BA2B.2B2A2B$27.3B3A2.3BA7B$27.3B3AB.5B.6B$27.3B2A2B.7BA3B$
27.8B3A2B.3A3B$27.7B.6BAB2AB$27.7B.7B3A2B$27.7B.7B3AB$27.8B3A4B3A2B$
27.7B.7B2A2B$27.7B.12B$27.7B.11B$27.8B3A9B$27.7B.11B$27.7B.12B$27.7B.
11B$27.8B3A9B$27.7B.11B$27.7B.12B$27.7B.11B$27.8B3A9B$27.7B.11B$27.7B
.12B$27.7B.11B$27.8B3A9B$27.7B.11B$27.7B.12B$27.7B.BA9B$27.7B2AB2A8B$
27.7B2AB2A7B$27.7B.12B$27.7B2AB2A7B$27.6BABABABA7B$27.19B$27.7B2AB2A
8B$27.7B2AB2A7B$27.20B$27.19B$27.7B2AB2A8B$27.19B$27.20B$27.19B$27.
20B$27.19B$27.20B$27.19B$27.20B$27.19B$27.20B$27.19B$27.20B$27.19BA$
27.18B3A$27.18BAB2A$27.19B3A$27.19B3A$27.19B3AB$27.19B2A2B$27.23B$27.
23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$
27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B
$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B$27.23B6.A$27.23B5.
3A$27.23B4.BAB2A$27.23B4.2B3A$27.23B4.2B2AB$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.
23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B
4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.
5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$
27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$27.23B4.5B$24.A2.23B4.5B$23.3A.23B4.
5B$22.BAB2A23B4.5B$22.2B3A23B4.5B$22.2B2A24B4.5B$22.28B4.5B$2.3A17.
28B4.5B$.A2BA17.28B4.5B$.3BAB16.28B4.5B$A3BAB16.28B4.5B$.3BA2B15.28B
4.5B$BABA2B16.28B4.5B!

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dvgrn
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 7th, 2020, 7:30 am

dvgrn wrote:
August 20th, 2020, 8:57 am
But maybe there's a better option. Is there a way to clean up a wickstretcher crash -- i.e., the result of burning fuse #2 -- such that the final block ends up on the same side of the wickstretcher lanes as the block made by burning fuse #1? It's easy enough to move the fuse #1 block out of the way temporarily, so that the Snark could be constructed directly the cheapest possible way, by gliders from the parent constructor arm.
Okay, a decent interval has gone by since that question. If y'all don't jump in and contribute to awesome new technology like this, it's just going to get done without you.

Here's a 21-glider salute that produces two target blocks. No doubt this is far from optimal, since it was just patched together by hand, so please feel free to improve it:

Code: Select all

x = 473, y = 478, rule = B3/S23
464b2o$463bobo$465bo$462bo$461b2o$461b2o$462b2o$459bo3b2o6b2o$458bobob
o2b2o3bobo$457bobo4b3o5bo$443b2o11bobo10bo$442bobo10bobo10b2o$444bo9bo
bo8bo$453bobo8bobo$452bobo8bobo$451bobo8bobo$450bobo8bobo$449bobo8bobo
$448bobo8bobo$447bobo8bobo$446bobo8bobo$445bobo8bobo$444bobo8bobo3b2o$
443bobo8bobo3bobo$442bobo8bobo6bo$441bobo8bobo$440bobo8bobo$439bobo8bo
bo$438bobo8bobo$437bobo8bobo$436bobo8bobo$435bobo8bobo$434bobo8bobo$
433bobo8bobo$432bobo8bobo$431bobo8bobo$430bobo8bobo$429bobo8bobo$428bo
bo8bobo$427bobo8bobo$426bobo8bobo$425bobo8bobo$424bobo8bobo$423bobo8bo
bo$422bobo8bobo$421bobo8bobo$420bobo8bobo$419bobo8bobo$418bobo8bobo$
417bobo8bobo$416bobo8bobo$415bobo8bobo$414bobo8bobo$413bobo8bobo$412bo
bo8bobo$411bobo8bobo$410bobo8bobo$409bobo8bobo$408bobo8bobo$407bobo8bo
bo$406bobo8bobo$405bobo8bobo$404bobo8bobo$403bobo8bobo$402bobo8bobo$
401bobo8bobo$400bobo8bobo$399bobo8bobo$398bobo8bobo$397bobo8bobo$396bo
bo8bobo$395bobo8bobo$394bobo8bobo$393bobo8bobo$392bobo8bobo$391bobo8bo
bo$390bobo8bobo$389bobo8bobo$388bobo8bobo$387bobo8bobo$386bobo8bobo$
385bobo8bobo$384bobo8bobo$383bobo8bobo$382bobo8bobo$381bobo8bobo$380bo
bo8bobo$379bobo8bobo$378bobo8bobo$377bobo8bobo$376bobo8bobo$375bobo8bo
bo$374bobo8bobo$373bobo8bobo$372bobo8bobo$371bobo8bobo$370bobo8bobo$
369bobo8bobo$368bobo8bobo$367bobo8bobo$366bobo8bobo$365bobo8bobo$364bo
bo8bobo$363bobo8bobo$362bobo8bobo$361bobo8bobo$360bobo8bobo$359bobo8bo
bo$358bobo8bobo$357bobo8bobo$356bobo8bobo$355bobo8bobo$354bobo8bobo$
353bobo8bobo$352bobo8bobo$351bobo8bobo$350bobo8bobo$340b2o7bobo8bobo$
339bobo6bobo8bobo$341bo5bobo8bobo$346bobo8bobo$345bobo8bobo$344bobo8bo
bo$343bobo8bobo$342bobo8bobo$341bobo8bobo$340bobo8bobo$339bobo8bobo$
338bobo8bobo$301b2o34bobo8bobo$300bobo33bobo8bobo$302bo32bobo8bobo$
334bobo8bobo$322b2o9bobo8bobo$321bobo8bobo8bobo$323bo7bobo8bobo$330bob
o8bobo$329bobo8bobo$328bobo8bobo$327bobo8bobo$326bobo8bobo$325bobo8bob
o$324bobo8bobo$323bobo8bobo$322bobo8bobo$321bobo8bobo$320bobo8bobo$
319bobo8bobo$318bobo8bobo$317bobo8bobo$316bobo8bobo$290b2o23bobo8bobo$
289bobo22bobo8bobo$291bo21bobo8bobo$312bobo8bobo$311bobo8bobo$310bobo
8bobo$309bobo8bobo$308bobo8bobo$307bobo8bobo$306bobo8bobo$305bobo8bobo
$304bobo8bobo$303bobo8bobo$302bobo8bobo$301bobo8bobo$300bobo8bobo$299b
obo8bobo$298bobo8bobo$297bobo8bobo$296bobo8bobo$295bobo8bobo$294bobo8b
obo$293bobo8bobo$260b2o30bobo8bobo$259bobo29bobo8bobo$261bo28bobo8bobo
$289bobo8bobo$288bobo8bobo$287bobo8bobo$286bobo8bobo$285bobo8bobo$284b
obo8bobo$283bobo8bobo$282bobo8bobo$281bobo8bobo$280bobo8bobo$279bobo8b
obo$278bobo8bobo$277bobo8bobo$276bobo8bobo$275bobo8bobo$274bobo8bobo$
273bobo8bobo$272bobo8bobo$271bobo8bobo$270bobo8bobo$269bobo8bobo$268bo
bo8bobo$248b2o17bobo8bobo$247bobo16bobo8bobo$249bo15bobo8bobo$264bobo
8bobo$263bobo8bobo$262bobo8bobo$261bobo8bobo$260bobo8bobo$259bobo8bobo
$258bobo8bobo$257bobo8bobo$256bobo8bobo$255bobo8bobo$254bobo8bobo$253b
obo8bobo$252bobo8bobo$242b2o7bobo8bobo$241bobo6bobo8bobo$243bo5bobo8bo
bo$248bobo8bobo$247bobo8bobo$246bobo8bobo$245bobo8bobo$244bobo8bobo$
243bobo8bobo$242bobo8bobo$241bobo8bobo$227b2o11bobo8bobo$226bobo10bobo
8bobo$228bo9bobo8bobo$237bobo8bobo$236bobo8bobo$235bobo8bobo$234bobo8b
obo$233bobo8bobo$232bobo8bobo$231bobo8bobo$230bobo8bobo$229bobo8bobo$
228bobo8bobo$201b2o24bobo8bobo$200bobo23bobo8bobo$202bo22bobo8bobo$
224bobo8bobo$223bobo8bobo$222bobo8bobo$221bobo8bobo$220bobo8bobo$219bo
bo8bobo$218bobo8bobo$217bobo8bobo$216bobo8bobo$215bobo8bobo$214bobo8bo
bo$213bobo8bobo$212bobo8bobo$211bobo8bobo$185b2o23bobo8bobo$184bobo22b
obo8bobo$186bo21bobo8bobo$207bobo8bobo$206bobo8bobo$205bobo8bobo$204bo
bo8bobo$203bobo8bobo$202bobo8bobo$201bobo8bobo$200bobo8bobo$199bobo8bo
bo$198bobo8bobo$197bobo8bobo$196bobo8bobo$195bobo8bobo$194bobo8bobo$
193bobo8bobo$192bobo8bobo$174b2o15bobo8bobo$173bobo14bobo8bobo$175bo
13bobo8bobo$188bobo8bobo$187bobo8bobo$186bobo8bobo$185bobo8bobo$184bob
o8bobo$183bobo8bobo$182bobo8bobo$155b2o24bobo8bobo$154bobo23bobo8bobo$
156bo22bobo8bobo$178bobo8bobo$177bobo8bobo$176bobo8bobo$175bobo8bobo$
174bobo8bobo$173bobo8bobo$172bobo8bobo$171bobo8bobo$170bobo8bobo$169bo
bo8bobo$168bobo8bobo$167bobo8bobo$166bobo8bobo$144b2o19bobo8bobo$143bo
bo18bobo8bobo$145bo17bobo8bobo$162bobo8bobo$161bobo8bobo$160bobo8bobo$
159bobo8bobo$158bobo8bobo$157bobo8bobo$156bobo8bobo$155bobo8bobo$154bo
bo8bobo$153bobo8bobo$126b2o24bobo8bobo$125bobo23bobo8bobo$127bo22bobo
8bobo$149bobo8bobo$148bobo8bobo$147bobo8bobo$146bobo8bobo$145bobo8bobo
$144bobo8bobo$143bobo8bobo$142bobo8bobo$141bobo8bobo$140bobo8bobo$139b
obo8bobo$102b2o34bobo8bobo$101bobo33bobo8bobo$103bo32bobo8bobo$135bobo
8bobo$134bobo8bobo$133bobo8bobo$132bobo8bobo$131bobo8bobo$130bobo8bobo
$129bobo8bobo$128bobo8bobo$127bobo8bobo$126bobo8bobo$125bobo8bobo$124b
obo8bobo$123bobo8bobo$122bobo8bobo$121bobo8bobo$120bobo8bobo$119bobo8b
obo$118bobo8bobo$117bobo8bobo$116bobo8bobo$115bobo8bobo$114bobo8bobo$
88b2o23bobo8bobo$87bobo22bobo8bobo$89bo21bobo8bobo$110bobo8bobo$109bob
o8bobo$108bobo8bobo$107bobo8bobo$106bobo8bobo$105bobo8bobo$104bobo8bob
o$103bobo8bobo$102bobo8bobo$101bobo8bobo$62b2o36bobo8bobo$61bobo35bobo
8bobo$63bo34bobo8bobo$97bobo8bobo$96bobo8bobo$95bobo8bobo$94bobo8bobo$
93bobo8bobo$92bobo8bobo$91bobo8bobo$90bobo8bobo$89bobo8bobo$88bobo8bob
o$87bobo8bobo$86bobo8bobo$85bobo8bobo$84bobo8bobo$83bobo8bobo$82bobo8b
obo$52b2o27bobo8bobo$51bobo26bobo8bobo$53bo25bobo8bobo$78bobo8bobo$77b
obo8bobo$76bobo8bobo$75bobo8bobo$74bobo8bobo$73bobo8bobo$72bobo8bobo$
71bobo8bobo$70bobo8bobo$69bobo8bobo$68bobo8bobo$67bobo8bobo$66bobo8bob
o$65bobo8bobo$42b2o20bobo8bobo$41bobo19bobo8bobo$43bo18bobo8bobo$61bob
o8bobo$60bobo8bobo$59bobo8bobo$58bobo8bobo$57bobo8bobo$56bobo8bobo$55b
obo8bobo$54bobo8bobo$53bobo8bobo$52bobo8bobo$20b2o29bobo8bobo$19bobo
28bobo8bobo$21bo27bobo8bobo$48bobo8bobo$47bobo8bobo$46bobo8bobo$45bobo
8bobo$44bobo8bobo$43bobo8bobo$42bobo8bobo$41bobo8bobo$40bobo8bobo$39bo
bo8bobo$38bobo8bobo$37bobo8bobo$36bobo8bobo$35bobo8bobo$10b2o22bobo8bo
bo$9bobo21bobo8bobo$11bo20bobo8bobo$31bobo8bobo$30bobo8bobo$29bobo8bob
o$28bobo8bobo$27bobo8bobo$26bobo8bobo$25bobo8bobo$24bobo8bobo$23bobo8b
obo$22bobo8bobo$21bobo8bobo$20bobo8bobo$19bobo8bobo$18bobo8bobo$17bobo
8bobo$16bobo8bobo$15bobo8bobo$14bobo8bobo$13bobo8bobo$12bobo8bobo$11bo
bo8bobo$9bo2bo8bobo$9bobo8bobo$19bobo$10bo7bobo$8b2o7bobo$16bobo$15bob
o$14bobo$13bobo$12bobo$11bobo$10bobo$9bobo$8bobo$7bobo$6bobo$5bobo$4bo
bo$3bobo$bo$o2b2o$o!
#C [[ TRACK 1/4 -1/4 STEP 5 Z 1 STOP 7240 ]]
The two blocks happen to be lined up right behind each other, so they could be used by a single-channel salvo aimed at the correct lane. That's not actually a requirement; it would probably be cheaper to send a regular slow salvo that moves the closer block off to the side, uses the farther block to build a Snark, and then uses the closer block to build a Scorbie Splitter. In a Speed Demonoid, the Snark recipe would just keep traveling northeast until the second wick finishes burning down, so the Scorbie Splitter would end up getting completed long before the Snark.

It should be possible to send the entire Snark and Scorbie Splitter recipes to travel alongside the wick, following right behind these 21 gliders. I think the splitter and reflector mechanisms will become available pretty much as soon as the wicks were burned far enough to be out of the way (just plus a small constant, no waiting around proportional to the length of the wick or anything like that.) Can someone review and confirm this?

The next mission, should someone choose to accept it, is to ask slsparse to produce two boat-plus-something constellations out of the leftover blocks from the double wickstretcher seed, that can be hit by one glider each to separately light each of the two wicks.

Pavgran
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Joined: June 12th, 2019, 12:14 pm

Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by Pavgran » September 7th, 2020, 9:32 am

dvgrn wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 7:30 am
The next mission, should someone choose to accept it, is to ask slsparse to produce two boat-plus-something constellations out of the leftover blocks from the double wickstretcher seed, that can be hit by one glider each to separately light each of the two wicks.
Here is a good candidate on what that "something" could be.

Code: Select all

x = 51, y = 56, rule = LifeSuper
41.3M$43.M$42.M$39.2M$39.M2$37.M3.2M$36.M.M2.2M5.3M$35.M.M3.M.M6.M$
34.M.M6.2M4.M$20.3M10.M.M6.M.4M$22.M9.M.M10.2M$21.M9.M.M8.M$30.M.M8.M
.M$29.M.M8.M.M$6.2A20.M.M8.M.M$5.B2AB18.M.M8.M.M$4.6B16.M.M8.M.M$3.8B
14.M.M8.M.M$3.8B12.HG.M8.M.M$3.9B7.B3.B2G8.M.M$3.22BH7.M.M$2.23B6.HG.
M3.3M$2.22B6.2L2G6.M$.22B6.4LH5.M$9BA10B8.4L$4B3ABABA10B7.4L$2.4BA2B
2A9B6.L.4L$5.A12B3.L3.8L$6.9B5.13L$9.7B2.15L$9.7B.17L$10.5B.17L$11.3B
.19L$13.22L$12.22L$12.22L$12.4L2K7L2K6L$13.3L2K7LKLK5L$16.4L3.3LK7L$
23.12L$23.11L$24.9L$23.9L$22.9L$21.10L$20.4L2.3L$19.4L3.2L$18.4L$17.
4L$16.4L$15.4L$14.4L$13.2K2L$12.KLKL$13.LK!
Reaction envelopes touch, but do not overlap, and they can be fired independently.

MathAndCode
Posts: 159
Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm

Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by MathAndCode » September 7th, 2020, 11:09 am

I think that a better way to design a self-constructing diagonal spaceship with speed approaching c/4 might be to have two halves that are time-separated glide-reflections of each other along a parallel line so that they are actually orthogonally separated. One half will send out gliders, the other half will send out XWSSes, and the two will collide and construct a new half. This new half will send out XWSSes, and the half that originally sent out XWSSes will send out gliders, constructing another new half. Meanwhile, the old halves will eventually get deleted. I suspect that making a XWSS will be much easier than making a wickstretching crab and that construction of each new half will be easier because one will be able to send construction spaceships from two different directions.
Marine has a non-centered Moore neighborhood and at least one gun with a very high period (11,843).
I'm in the process of reducing the glider cost of universal construction.

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dvgrn
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm

MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 11:09 am
I think that a better way to design a self-constructing diagonal spaceship with speed approaching c/4 might be to have two halves that are time-separated glide-reflections of each other along a parallel line so that they are actually orthogonally separated. One half will send out gliders, the other half will send out XWSSes, and the two will collide and construct a new half. This new half will send out XWSSes, and the half that originally sent out XWSSes will send out gliders, constructing another new half.
This is an interesting design idea, and I would love to see someone actually build one. The original Gemini spaceship was the first and only self-constructing structure that built things by colliding streams from two different directions, and it was way more efficient to encode recipes that way. There are already recipes available to send *WSSes in any direction, directly from a single-channel construction elbow, so that part wouldn’t be hard.

However, unidirectional “construct a Snark and Scottie Splitter” recipes are already available in slsparse’s database, whereas someone would have to build all new recipes for this G+*WSS design. There are also some non-trivial timing issues with getting the Gs and *WSSes to line up, since they travel at different speeds.

The most difficult detail is that when the signals that store the recipe arrive at a new half, a copy of them has to get sent onward immediately. So they have to have been delayed at the previous turn, otherwise they’ll get there before the new half is constructed. Any delay mechanism that I can think of will add a delay proportional to the length of the recipe, and that implies that the top speed will be something less than c/2. (We already have loopships, by the way, which do this kind of delay trick but travel orthogonally.)

There might also have to be twice as much circuitry, so that the *WSS part of the recipe is kept separate from the glider part. This adds up to quite a lot of new research. I hope someone does that research, for sure, but meanwhile we already have all the pieces of a Speed Demonoid, just waiting to be put together.

MathAndCode
Posts: 159
Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm

Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by MathAndCode » September 7th, 2020, 2:16 pm

dvgrn wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm
MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 11:09 am
I think that a better way to design a self-constructing diagonal spaceship with speed approaching c/4 might be to have two halves that are time-separated glide-reflections of each other along a parallel line so that they are actually orthogonally separated. One half will send out gliders, the other half will send out XWSSes, and the two will collide and construct a new half. This new half will send out XWSSes, and the half that originally sent out XWSSes will send out gliders, constructing another new half.
This is an interesting design idea, and I would love to see someone actually build one. The original Gemini spaceship was the first and only self-constructing structure that built things by colliding streams from two different directions, and it was way more efficient to encode recipes that way. There are already recipes available to send *WSSes in any direction, directly from a single-channel construction elbow, so that part wouldn’t be hard.

However, unidirectional “construct a Snark and Scottie Splitter” recipes are already available in slsparse’s database, whereas someone would have to build all new recipes for this G+*WSS design. There are also some non-trivial timing issues with getting the Gs and *WSSes to line up, since they travel at different speeds.

The most difficult detail is that when the signals that store the recipe arrive at a new half, a copy of them has to get sent onward immediately. So they have to have been delayed at the previous turn, otherwise they’ll get there before the new half is constructed. Any delay mechanism that I can think of will add a delay proportional to the length of the recipe, and that implies that the top speed will be something less than c/2. (We already have loopships, by the way, which do this kind of delay trick but travel orthogonally.)

There might also have to be twice as much circuitry, so that the *WSS part of the recipe is kept separate from the glider part. This adds up to quite a lot of new research. I hope someone does that research, for sure, but meanwhile we already have all the pieces of a Speed Demonoid, just waiting to be put together.
Even if only one XWSS is sent out in order to collide with a glider and create a target, it will still probably be simpler than making a one-glider crab wickstretcher seed then figuring out how to activate it. There might be a few other ways in which a XWSS would be useful, most likely either near the beginning of a construction phase or for making another target, but most of the construction spaceships will likely be gliders, meaning that one could use the unidirectional recipes that are already known. If that's the case, then it might be better to simply make a seed for each XWSS instead of making a converter, and this method would allow XWSSes of different types or on different lanes. This method would also reducing the timing difficulties. Proper XWSS and glider construction is an interesting idea, but it would likely be of limited utility. Glider construction with XWSS-glider collisions for creating targets, on the other hand, can probably be used in any case where one large pattern needs to construct another large pattern, such as a self-constructing spaceship or the 0E0P metacell.
I don't think that necessary construction delays will create very much of a problem. First, consider such a spaceship that doesn't bother destroying halves once it's done using them (so it would actually be a puffer, and they technically wouldn't be halves). This provides a source of circuitry that is already present once the two halves actively involved in construction (one of them more actively involved than the other). One add a stable splitter to one of the constructing halves (as well as a few other modifications) then use one copy of the tape to construct and feeds the other stream through the already-constructed circuity, which directs the saved copy of the tape to the constructing halves once they're finished constructing in order to be split again. If an actual spaceship is desired, then one can add a destruction tape sufficiently far back to not interfere with construction (and possibly make some relatively slight modifications during construction in order to make destruction easier), which can then use the same stable splitter to copy the destruction tape, allowing one copy to be used for destruction and the other copy to be saved so that later halves can also be destroyed. While much of the circuitry can probably be reused, some changes will have to be made, which raises the question of how it's possible to do glider construction or destruction by shooting a single-lane glider stream at a pattern that reflects all of the gliders coming from that lane. I'm sure that there's a way to do this because there are already other self-constructing spaceships that destroy their past halves once they are no longer needed, but an interesting idea that I had (although one that might be difficult to put into place) is to have one reflector with a longer repeat time than everything else in the circuitry then create a target by sending two gliders that are too close together. Another idea that would likely be easier to put into action is to use an oscillator that only reflects gliders with certain timings then to create a target in order to initiate destruction by sending a glider with the wrong timing.
About the spaceship not being able to reach c/4, isn't that true of any self-constructing spaceship? This particular one is preventing from reaching c/4 because the XWSS-glider collision that creates a target for glider construction will not send out the next XWSS and glider right away, but I believe that it could get arbitrarily close by moving the halves farther apart (although this would require multiple copies of the construction recipe to be circulating in order to prevent too long of a gap between the construction of sequential halves). Or is there some other problem?
Also, it's theoretically possible that if an XWSS collides with a volley of gliders, the resulting reaction will emit the same time of XWSS and a volley of gliders with the same timing and spacing so that it allows a self-constructing puffer (Expecting each half to just happen to emit the right deletion gliders and not create any escaping gliders would be unrealistic.) without universal constructing technology, which would probably be the simplest self-constructing pattern in Conway's Game of Life. This could either travel diagonally, as already described, or orthogonally, where each half sends the XWSS in the same absolute direction as its glide-reflection but sends gliders in a different absolute direction. In an ideal case, finding such a pattern probably wouldn't require too much computing effort. The problem is that the part being constructed might send spaceships back, which could crash into the parts doing the constructing, altering which spaceships they send to the part being constructed. This seems as likely to make a self-constructing puffer as break one, but it will make a search more difficult. Any search would probably be further complicated by the possibility of two spaceships with different directions colliding in mid-air.
Marine has a non-centered Moore neighborhood and at least one gun with a very high period (11,843).
I'm in the process of reducing the glider cost of universal construction.

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calcyman
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by calcyman » September 7th, 2020, 5:56 pm

Pavgran wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 9:32 am
Here is a good candidate on what that "something" could be.

Code: Select all

x = 51, y = 56, rule = LifeSuper
41.3M$43.M$42.M$39.2M$39.M2$37.M3.2M$36.M.M2.2M5.3M$35.M.M3.M.M6.M$
34.M.M6.2M4.M$20.3M10.M.M6.M.4M$22.M9.M.M10.2M$21.M9.M.M8.M$30.M.M8.M
.M$29.M.M8.M.M$6.2A20.M.M8.M.M$5.B2AB18.M.M8.M.M$4.6B16.M.M8.M.M$3.8B
14.M.M8.M.M$3.8B12.HG.M8.M.M$3.9B7.B3.B2G8.M.M$3.22BH7.M.M$2.23B6.HG.
M3.3M$2.22B6.2L2G6.M$.22B6.4LH5.M$9BA10B8.4L$4B3ABABA10B7.4L$2.4BA2B
2A9B6.L.4L$5.A12B3.L3.8L$6.9B5.13L$9.7B2.15L$9.7B.17L$10.5B.17L$11.3B
.19L$13.22L$12.22L$12.22L$12.4L2K7L2K6L$13.3L2K7LKLK5L$16.4L3.3LK7L$
23.12L$23.11L$24.9L$23.9L$22.9L$21.10L$20.4L2.3L$19.4L3.2L$18.4L$17.
4L$16.4L$15.4L$14.4L$13.2K2L$12.KLKL$13.LK!
Reaction envelopes touch, but do not overlap, and they can be fired independently.
Great!

Why can't we just replace the green side with a reflected copy of the blue side? That way, the reaction envelopes will be completely disjoint.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

MathAndCode
Posts: 159
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by MathAndCode » September 7th, 2020, 8:08 pm

calcyman wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 5:56 pm
Why can't we just replace the green side with a reflected copy of the blue side? That way, the reaction envelopes will be completely disjoint.
Why does there even need to be a wick on both sides?
Marine has a non-centered Moore neighborhood and at least one gun with a very high period (11,843).
I'm in the process of reducing the glider cost of universal construction.

User avatar
dvgrn
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 7th, 2020, 9:54 pm

MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 8:08 pm
calcyman wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 5:56 pm
Why can't we just replace the green side with a reflected copy of the blue side? That way, the reaction envelopes will be completely disjoint.
Why does there even need to be a wick on both sides?
It doesn't cost much extra, and it solves a significant problem specific to Speed Demonoids. There has to be a Scorbie Splitter built at a distance away from the construction arm equal to the Demonoid's displacement, and also a Snark built at a distance of 1.5 times the displacement.

Until Pavgran suggested the idea of burning two wicks, it was simple enough to build and burn two separate wickstretchers. But two wicks on one stretcher is much more elegant, to the point of being pretty much irresistible!
MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 2:16 pm
Even if only one XWSS is sent out in order to collide with a glider and create a target, it will still probably be simpler than making a one-glider crab wickstretcher seed then figuring out how to activate it.
Again, the alternating-sides XWSS+Gs trick seems perfectly reasonable and I hope somebody figures out the details.

On the other hand, the one-glider crab wickstretcher seed is already 100% complete, and the remaining problems are very simple and don't require designing any new circuitry to speak of -- just some self-destruct seeds for a Scorbie Splitter and a Snark, which are fairly trivial as these things go.
MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 2:16 pm
About the spaceship not being able to reach c/4, isn't that true of any self-constructing spaceship? This particular one is preventing from reaching c/4 because the XWSS-glider collision that creates a target for glider construction will not send out the next XWSS and glider right away, but I believe that it could get arbitrarily close by moving the halves farther apart (although this would require multiple copies of the construction recipe to be circulating in order to prevent too long of a gap between the construction of sequential halves). Or is there some other problem?
I think there's another problem, but I could definitely be wrong. At least as I'm visualizing this, when you move the halves farther apart, you lengthen the amount of time that it takes for the recipe to finish building a copy of the reflector/construction-arm circuitry. This basically means that the time to completion of that construction isn't a constant -- it's some proportion of the total time that it takes for a glider to cross the width of the Demonoid.

That implies that the time needed for circuitry construction can't be made to be a vanishingly small percentage of the total period of the Demonoid... which means that the unreachable upper limit on speed will end up being some speed strictly less than c/4. With the wickstretcher method, there's no such limitation -- you can hit any rational speed less than c/4, with no exceptions, just by making the period long enough.

MathAndCode
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by MathAndCode » September 7th, 2020, 10:18 pm

dvgrn wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 9:54 pm
MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 8:08 pm
Why does there even need to be a wick on both sides?
It doesn't cost much extra, and it solves a significant problem specific to Speed Demonoids. There has to be a Scorbie Splitter built at a distance away from the construction arm equal to the Demonoid's displacement, and also a Snark built at a distance of 1.5 times the displacement.

Until Pavgran suggested the idea of burning two wicks, it was simple enough to build and burn two separate wickstretchers. But two wicks on one stretcher is much more elegant, to the point of being pretty much irresistible!
Ah; so one needs two targets.
dvgrn wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 9:54 pm
MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 2:16 pm
About the spaceship not being able to reach c/4, isn't that true of any self-constructing spaceship? This particular one is preventing from reaching c/4 because the XWSS-glider collision that creates a target for glider construction will not send out the next XWSS and glider right away, but I believe that it could get arbitrarily close by moving the halves farther apart (although this would require multiple copies of the construction recipe to be circulating in order to prevent too long of a gap between the construction of sequential halves). Or is there some other problem?
I think there's another problem, but I could definitely be wrong. At least as I'm visualizing this, when you move the halves farther apart, you lengthen the amount of time that it takes for the recipe to finish building a copy of the reflector/construction-arm circuitry. This basically means that the time to completion of that construction isn't a constant -- it's some proportion of the total time that it takes for a glider to cross the width of the Demonoid.

That implies that the time needed for circuitry construction can't be made to be a vanishingly small percentage of the total period of the Demonoid... which means that the unreachable upper limit on speed will end up being some speed strictly less than c/4. With the wickstretcher method, there's no such limitation -- you can hit any rational speed less than c/4, with no exceptions, just by making the period long enough.
I still think that this could be solved by having multiple copies of the construction recipe and splitting the construction recipe into glider and XWSS parts. I don't think that lengthening the amount of time before construction is actually completed will be a problem because one will be able to send the tape to the newly-constructed circuitry before the circuitry is actually completed as long as it will be completed by the time that the tape arrives, i.e. all of the construction gliders have already been sent.
Marine has a non-centered Moore neighborhood and at least one gun with a very high period (11,843).
I'm in the process of reducing the glider cost of universal construction.

Pavgran
Posts: 61
Joined: June 12th, 2019, 12:14 pm

Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by Pavgran » September 8th, 2020, 4:00 am

calcyman wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 5:56 pm
Pavgran wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 9:32 am
Here is a good candidate on what that "something" could be.

Code: Select all

x = 51, y = 56, rule = LifeSuper
41.3M$43.M$42.M$39.2M$39.M2$37.M3.2M$36.M.M2.2M5.3M$35.M.M3.M.M6.M$
34.M.M6.2M4.M$20.3M10.M.M6.M.4M$22.M9.M.M10.2M$21.M9.M.M8.M$30.M.M8.M
.M$29.M.M8.M.M$6.2A20.M.M8.M.M$5.B2AB18.M.M8.M.M$4.6B16.M.M8.M.M$3.8B
14.M.M8.M.M$3.8B12.HG.M8.M.M$3.9B7.B3.B2G8.M.M$3.22BH7.M.M$2.23B6.HG.
M3.3M$2.22B6.2L2G6.M$.22B6.4LH5.M$9BA10B8.4L$4B3ABABA10B7.4L$2.4BA2B
2A9B6.L.4L$5.A12B3.L3.8L$6.9B5.13L$9.7B2.15L$9.7B.17L$10.5B.17L$11.3B
.19L$13.22L$12.22L$12.22L$12.4L2K7L2K6L$13.3L2K7LKLK5L$16.4L3.3LK7L$
23.12L$23.11L$24.9L$23.9L$22.9L$21.10L$20.4L2.3L$19.4L3.2L$18.4L$17.
4L$16.4L$15.4L$14.4L$13.2K2L$12.KLKL$13.LK!
Reaction envelopes touch, but do not overlap, and they can be fired independently.
Great!

Why can't we just replace the green side with a reflected copy of the blue side? That way, the reaction envelopes will be completely disjoint.
We can. But that variant has smaller bounding box and is therefore probably cheaper to construct. It also has better clearance for gliders traveling along the wick, though I think these gliders will be sent before building this seed.

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dvgrn
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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 8th, 2020, 7:25 am

MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 10:18 pm
I still think that this could be solved by having multiple copies of the construction recipe and splitting the construction recipe into glider and XWSS parts. I don't think that lengthening the amount of time before construction is actually completed will be a problem because one will be able to send the tape to the newly-constructed circuitry before the circuitry is actually completed as long as it will be completed by the time that the tape arrives, i.e. all of the construction gliders have already been sent.
Sounds plausible. There might be some synchronization problems with multiple copies of the recipe, though. The first copy of the recipe has to arrive at each construction site when it's empty, to do the construction; the second copy can't start to arrive until the first copy has completed its work.

So there are various options. You could use a delay loop that's the full length of the construction recipe, and the construction recipe will now have to be expanded to build the delay-loop circuitry. If the leading copy of the recipe is used up doing the construction, then the delay loop will also have to include switching circuitry to allow an extra copy of the recipe to be made each cycle -- but only one extra copy: after that the whole circuit has to be able to shut down and self-destruct.

The loopship does all that stuff, and it adds up to quite a bit of complexity.

Maybe there's a clever way to make a copy of the leading recipe, so that it becomes the trailing recipe in the next cycle without using up too much space. The best way to find out if this will all work is probably to build one, or at least to put together a detailed blueprint showing all the stages of the self-construction and destruction cycle. Feel free to make a new thread and start posting illustrations!

The new structure probably shouldn't be called a "Speed Demonoid", though. There's already a perfectly good design for a Speed Demonoid, much simpler than what's described above. Its permanent circuitry in each half consists of just one Scorbie Splitter and one Snark. The rest is temporary one-time junk to do the crabstretcher building, fuse lighting and self-destructing.

Maybe you could call your design a "Speed Loopship"? Or something else, if you can figure out how to avoid building a memory storage loop to take care of the trailing recipe delay problem. Anyway I think the idea deserves a separate thread, especially since it might not need to make much use of one-glider seeds.

MathAndCode
Posts: 159
Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm

Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by MathAndCode » September 8th, 2020, 11:13 am

dvgrn wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
MathAndCode wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 10:18 pm
I still think that this could be solved by having multiple copies of the construction recipe and splitting the construction recipe into glider and XWSS parts. I don't think that lengthening the amount of time before construction is actually completed will be a problem because one will be able to send the tape to the newly-constructed circuitry before the circuitry is actually completed as long as it will be completed by the time that the tape arrives, i.e. all of the construction gliders have already been sent.
Sounds plausible. There might be some synchronization problems with multiple copies of the recipe, though. The first copy of the recipe has to arrive at each construction site when it's empty, to do the construction; the second copy can't start to arrive until the first copy has completed its work.
This is a limitation of all self-constructing spaceships, though, and the Caterloopillar can have any speed lower than c/4. As long as the time spent on construction grows indefinitely small compared to the time for which the spaceships are traveling to their next destination, it should be able to have any speed approaching c/4 diagonal.
dvgrn wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
So there are various options. You could use a delay loop that's the full length of the construction recipe, and the construction recipe will now have to be expanded to build the delay-loop circuitry. If the leading copy of the recipe is used up doing the construction, then the delay loop will also have to include switching circuitry to allow an extra copy of the recipe to be made each cycle -- but only one extra copy: after that the whole circuit has to be able to shut down and self-destruct.
One thing that I think might happen is that there will be certain separations that will allow optimal speed, one for each number of construction tapes circulating. For each of these separations, increasing the separation will cause unnecessary gaps to form, and decreasing the separation will cause adjacent recipes to start interfering with each other or lead to some other difficulty.
dvgrn wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
The loopship does all that stuff, and it adds up to quite a bit of complexity.
Thank you for the link. I've already started looking at it and think that I get the basic idea. I'll keep looking at it in order to get a better idea of what has already been done, among other reasons.
dvgrn wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
Maybe there's a clever way to make a copy of the leading recipe, so that it becomes the trailing recipe in the next cycle without using up too much space. The best way to find out if this will all work is probably to build one, or at least to put together a detailed blueprint showing all the stages of the self-construction and destruction cycle. Feel free to make a new thread and start posting illustrations!
I probably will after posting this, although I don't expect to do much work on it until I'm more familiar with Conway's Game of Life. For now, I'll stick with trying to reduce the glider cost of the RCT-based universal constructor, which I believe is closer to my current level (although I expect to gradually improve).
dvgrn wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
The new structure probably shouldn't be called a "Speed Demonoid", though. There's already a perfectly good design for a Speed Demonoid, much simpler than what's described above. Its permanent circuitry in each half consists of just one Scorbie Splitter and one Snark. The rest is temporary one-time junk to do the crabstretcher building, fuse lighting and self-destructing.

Maybe you could call your design a "Speed Loopship"? Or something else, if you can figure out how to avoid building a memory storage loop to take care of the trailing recipe delay problem. Anyway I think the idea deserves a separate thread, especially since it might not need to make much use of one-glider seeds.
I might call it a flipping loopship or reflecting loopship because it will probably be glide-reflected halfway through its period.



Edit: I have created a separate topic.
Marine has a non-centered Moore neighborhood and at least one gun with a very high period (11,843).
I'm in the process of reducing the glider cost of universal construction.

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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 8th, 2020, 11:59 am

MathAndCode wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 11:13 am
I might call it a flipping loopship or reflecting loopship because it will probably be glide-reflected halfway through its period.
The existing loopship also does that, but across an orthogonal line of symmetry instead of a diagonal one. So those names aren't technically very specific. A "diagonal loopship" would definitely be something new, though.

Dealing with multiple simultaneous copies of a construction recipe still sounds like an unnecessary hassle to me. On the other hand, self-constructing circuitry has taken a big detour for ten years after the Gemini spaceship came out, and honestly that's probably mostly my fault. The Gemini constructed itself with nice efficient "slow glider pairs" colliding at 90 degrees. Everything after that has been basically unidirectional, either slow salvos or single-channel streams.

So I might be badly biased about what is "simple" and what is not, just based on what I'm used to.

EDIT:
MathAndCode wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 11:13 am
Edit: I have created a separate topic.
Looks good!

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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 8th, 2020, 12:41 pm

Pavgran wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 4:00 am
... that variant has smaller bounding box and is therefore probably cheaper to construct. It also has better clearance for gliders traveling along the wick, though I think these gliders will be sent before building this seed.
I was going to agree with this, but now I think it would be good to build the fuse-lighting seed constellations immediately, before the construction gliders are sent out along the wick. This is because I think it will be much easier to send single-channel recipes out along the wick, than to send conventional slow-salvo gliders to build the new Scorbie Splitter and Snark mechanisms.

The Original Probably-Bad Idea
My previous idea was to delete the leftover block on the northwest side after the crab wickstretcher seed was ignited, send the whole slow-salvo recipe for building self-destruct-seeded versions of the Scorbie Splitter and the Snark, and then use the remaining block to build the ignition constellations for the two wicks. That works, as long as we can shoot slow-salvo gliders directly from the currently active construction arm.

But can we do that?

Houston, We Have A Problem
I was thinking at first that we could get away without any Snarkmaker recipes. But unfortunately if we're just using regular slow-salvo recipes fired from the active Scorbie Splitter ... well, we can't do that, because the Scorbie Splitter construction arm can't reach that far back, and anyway the currently active Snark would get in the way.

Even adding two Snarkmakers to double over the construction arm won't help, because we'll still have to build the new Scorbie Splitter and new Snark directly behind the currently active Snark.

We could do something complicated, like build an extra Snark and elbow block just past each Snark reflector, so that the construction arm could bend around and get past the active Snark. The active construction arm would do a Snarkmaker recipe to connect up to that extra pre-constructed Snark. But that means adding two bends to the construction arm.

Snarkmaker, Snarkmaker, Make Me A Snark
Now I'm thinking that one Snarkmaker will be enough. After setting up the two wickstretcher triggers, the construction arm will build itself a lossless elbow (a Snark) pointing at the two blocks produced by the "21-glider salute". First a single-channel recipe will be sent through that lossless elbow, using the first block as an elbow to build a new Scorbie Splitter. Then we send an elbow-destroy recipe for that first block. Immediately after that we can send the single-channel recipe for the new Snark, followed by one more elbow-destroy recipe.

The Single-Channel Stream Doesn't Have To Do Everything
We can't conveniently do the usual Snarkbreaker recipe at the end of all this, because the construction site will be awkwardly far away from the Snark to be destroyed -- it would make the whole recipe twice as long or some such. But we don't need to use a Snarkbreaker to get rid of that Snark, because all the construction will be done at that point. Instead of using the single-channel stream, we can do any later fuse-lighting and self-destruct work using the design that I suggested before, with two separate signals following along behind all this standard recipe stuff.

The first following signal, TRIGGER1, would trigger the first non-destructive wick and produce a precisely-timed new TRIGGER1 glider headed for the opposite half. TRIGGER2 would do the same for the crab-stopping wick, but along with making a new TRIGGER2, it would also send self-destruct signals to the most recently active Scorbie Splitter and Snark.

I'm not used to wickstretcher math yet, though. We really can send both the Snark and the Scorbie Splitter recipes immediately after triggering the wickstretcher -- right? When TRIGGER1 makes the first wick catch up with the crab, the crab will be at the correct location to build the Scorbie Splitter. So that will get built. Right after that, a following single-channel stream will knock out that elbow and fly past that location, aimed at the place where eventually there will be another elbow block that can be used to build the new Snark. (The actual block won't show up until the second fuse burns past all these gliders, blows up the crab, and makes some targets for the rest of the 21-glider salvo to work with.)

Can anyone see a way to redesign this to get something simpler?

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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by MathAndCode » September 8th, 2020, 12:56 pm

dvgrn wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 11:59 am
MathAndCode wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 11:13 am
I might call it a flipping loopship or reflecting loopship because it will probably be glide-reflected halfway through its period.
The existing loopship also does that, but across an orthogonal line of symmetry instead of a diagonal one. So those names aren't technically very specific. A "diagonal loopship" would definitely be something new, though.



EDIT:
MathAndCode wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 11:13 am
Edit: I have created a separate topic.
Looks good!
Thank you. I have updated the name of the thread accordingly. I will respond to the rest of your reply in that thread.
Marine has a non-centered Moore neighborhood and at least one gun with a very high period (11,843).
I'm in the process of reducing the glider cost of universal construction.

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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 8th, 2020, 2:58 pm

Pavgran wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 4:00 am
calcyman wrote:Why can't we just replace the green side with a reflected copy of the blue side? That way, the reaction envelopes will be completely disjoint.
We can. But that variant has smaller bounding box and is therefore probably cheaper to construct. It also has better clearance for gliders traveling along the wick, though I think these gliders will be sent before building this seed.
Hang on -- once we have to add another object to the boat anyway, to suppress that awkward glider, we really might as well just use a completely different pair of objects to do the ignition. This is just from one possible octohash search of many:

Code: Select all

x = 44, y = 53, rule = LifeSuper
34.3M$36.M$35.M$32.2M$32.M2$30.M3.2M$29.M.M2.2M5.3M$28.M.M3.M.M6.M$
27.M.M6.2M4.M$13.3M10.M.M6.M.4M$15.M9.M.M10.2M$14.M9.M.M8.M$23.M.M8.M
.M$22.M.M8.M.M$21.M.M8.M.M$20.M.M8.M.M$19.M.M8.M.M$18.M.M8.M.M$16.HG.
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5.4L$4.4L$3.4L$2.4L$.2K2L$KLKL$.LK!
If we're really lucky, maybe we can find two constellations that both fit on the same side of the wickstretcher somehow, leaving the NW side completely clear for sending gliders along the wick.

(On the other hand, if my previous post is mostly correct, we don't really need that. The single-channel lane that's implied by the 21-glider salvo is far enough away from the wick that it wouldn't be a problem to shoot past any of these ignition mechanisms.)

EDIT: Does anyone want to try running simeks' GoL-destroy against a Scorbie Splitter, to see if we can get a version that's 1G-destructable?

1G-destructable Snarks are easy, because one LWSS can clean up a Snark. Here's a possible Scorbie Splitter blueprint that could be run through GoL-destroy:

Code: Select all

x = 1904, y = 1752, rule = LifeHistory
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48.A141.4B18.4B$58.A.A190.4B18.4B$57.A.A190.4B18.4B$56.A.A190.4B18.4B
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46.A.A131.4B5.4B46.4B18.4B$45.A.A142.4B44.4B18.4B$44.A.A131.4B9.4B42.
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3A118.4B36.4B18.4B$40.A.A32.A98.4B17.4B34.4B18.4B$39.A.A32.A121.4B32.
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4B$33.A.A166.4B20.4B18.4B$32.A.A131.4B33.4B18.4B18.4B$31.A.A170.4B3.
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3BD8.4B$12.A.A156.4B42.3DB6.4B$11.A.A158.4B42.4B4.4B$10.A.A160.4B42.
4B2.4B$9.A.A31.3A128.4B42.8B$8.A.A34.A129.4B42.6B$7.A.A34.A131.4B42.
4B$6.A.A168.4B40.6B$5.A.A170.4B38.8B$4.A.A172.4B36.4B2.4B$3.A.A174.4B
34.4B4.4B$.A2.A176.4B32.4B6.4B$.A.A178.4B30.4B8.4B$183.4B28.4B10.4B$
2.A181.4B21.B4.4B12.3B.A11.2A$2A183.4B19.3B2.4B14.2BA.A9.B2AB$186.4B
10.2A5.9B16.BA.A9.3B$187.4B10.A4.9B12.2A2.3A.2A9.B.B$188.4B9.A.AB.8B
13.A2.A4.B8.5B$189.4B9.2AB.9B3.4B2.BA.A3.3AB2A6.6B$190.4B10.11B2.5B2.
B2A6.A.2A4.8B$191.4B9.11B2.8B10.13B$192.4B8.21B12.13B$193.4B8.19B12.
15B$194.4B6.19B2.B10.15B$195.4B3.26B5.B.17B$196.4B.51B$197.4B.21B2A
13B2A13B$198.25B2A13B2A14B$199.50B3.B2A$200.48B4.A2.A$199.33B2.2B2.B
3.6B5.2A.A$199.16B2.7B2.4B13.6B7.A$199.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A$200.14B5.3B
19.2A4.4B$203.9B.3B4.B21.A5.4B$203.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B$204.4B6.A24.A10.4B
$206.4B5.3A33.4B$208.2A7.A34.4B$208.A44.4B$209.3A42.4B$211.A43.4B$
256.4B$257.4B$258.4B$259.4B$260.4B$261.4B!
#C [[ X -721 Y 834 Z 4 ]]
Basically you feed in the red glider and the blue regions to GoL-destroy -- except maybe you'd widen the blue region by one cell diagonally to be safe, if I remember right (which I might not). The non-blue area is where GoL-destroy can safely drop in small "bait" still lifes that help the Scorbie Splitter self-destruct completely cleanly. It should only take four or five bait objects, half a dozen at most.

Zoom out on the above pattern to see a trial blueprint showing roughly how all this might work. It's not really to scale. The wickstretcher and the 21 slow gliders would actually have been built by the southwestmost Scorbie Splitter that we're looking at.

The white glider would be produced at the very end of the cycle, by a TRIGGER2 signal following along behind the Scorbie Splitter and Snark single-channel recipes (which are not shown at all). TRIGGER2 would also have lit the trailing fuse. The leading fuse would have been lit a long time earlier by a separate TRIGGER1 signal (also not shown).

Notice that the burning fuses and 21-glider salvo eventually produce two widely separated target blocks, one near each of the red-marked areas showing where the next Scorbie Splitter and Snark will have to be constructed.

MathAndCode
Posts: 159
Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm

Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by MathAndCode » September 13th, 2020, 6:38 pm

dvgrn wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm
However, unidirectional “construct a Snark and Scottie Splitter” recipes are already available in slsparse’s database, whereas someone would have to build all new recipes for this G+*WSS design. There are also some non-trivial timing issues with getting the Gs and *WSSes to line up, since they travel at different speeds.
I was thinking about the possibility of leading an effort to develop XWSS-based construction for my idea of a flipping loopship, and then I remembered this post:
dvgrn wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 4:50 pm
That MWSS can't really be the first one in a single-channel stream of MWSSes, unless the seed is expanded to build a lot more upward *WSSes to build an MWSS-to-G and associated elbow out of the leftovers from the fuse burning out. That doesn't seem very reasonable, compared to building *WSSes on different lanes using a regular glider-based single-channel elbow back at the blinker puffer seed location.
If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has already been developed, why do you need a MWSS-to-G converter? If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has not been developed, then how can you construct a MWSS-to-G converter?
If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has already been developed, then the flipping loopship can simply use a 45° collision to create one or more targets then construct one half of the new circuitry with gliders and the other half with XWSSes. If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has not been developed, then task of building the self-constructing orthogonal spaceship that you mentioned will make a project to develop unidirectional XWSS-based construction more likely to gain enough support.
Marine has a non-centered Moore neighborhood and at least one gun with a very high period (11,843).
I'm in the process of reducing the glider cost of universal construction.

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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by dvgrn » September 13th, 2020, 6:55 pm

MathAndCode wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:38 pm
If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has already been developed, why do you need a MWSS-to-G converter? If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has not been developed, then how can you construct a MWSS-to-G converter?
For the second question, you can easily build an MWSS-to-G converter by compiling it with slsparse, to get the slow glider salvo you need to build it starting from a block.

Then you put together the simplest possible universal toolkit for slow *WSSes -- a recipe to split one block into two blocks, a recipe to produce a glider+block starting from a block, and recipes to move a block (1,0), (0,1), (-1,0), and (0,-1) -- or any other set of four moves that can collectively move a block any distance in any direction.

This is enough to allow for shooting *WSSes a very long distance, and convert them to gliders at the last moment to build a standard slow glider-salvo recipe. In a sense it's still "unidirectional XWSS-based construction", but it's not the same as hitting a target directly with *WSSes to build things directly. There's a 45-degree "slow^2 elbow" between the *WSSes and the target, which is much less efficient but much more convenient than inventing a whole new slsparse with a direct *WSS construction library.

MathAndCode
Posts: 159
Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm

Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by MathAndCode » September 13th, 2020, 10:01 pm

dvgrn wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:55 pm
MathAndCode wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:38 pm
If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has already been developed, why do you need a MWSS-to-G converter? If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has not been developed, then how can you construct a MWSS-to-G converter?
For the second question, you can easily build an MWSS-to-G converter by compiling it with slsparse, to get the slow glider salvo you need to build it starting from a block.

Then you put together the simplest possible universal toolkit for slow *WSSes -- a recipe to split one block into two blocks, a recipe to produce a glider+block starting from a block, and recipes to move a block (1,0), (0,1), (-1,0), and (0,-1) -- or any other set of four moves that can collectively move a block any distance in any direction.

This is enough to allow for shooting *WSSes a very long distance, and convert them to gliders at the last moment to build a standard slow glider-salvo recipe. In a sense it's still "unidirectional XWSS-based construction", but it's not the same as hitting a target directly with *WSSes to build things directly. There's a 45-degree "slow^2 elbow" between the *WSSes and the target, which is much less efficient but much more convenient than inventing a whole new slsparse with a direct *WSS construction library.
I find it somewhat surprising that with all of the advancements that have been made in glider construction, culminating in universal construction with only one lane or with two lanes with fixed parity, we still don't have a better way to do universal construction with XWSSes. I suppose that now that glider construction has become so advanced, Life enthusiasts will eventually start running out of room for improvement and start developing XWSS construction instead. Should I start a thread for this now? I'll probably start one at latest when I finish working on universal construction (possible with only nineteen gliders)—unless I will have had another idea for how to contribute to Conway's Game of Life that I think would be better beforehand.
I've started looking into two-XWSS collisions. Specifically, I've looked at all of the 180° LWSS-LWSS collisions where the two LWSSes have the same parity. Here's a way to collide two LWSSes to make xs14_64lb8ozw11:

Code: Select all

x = 14, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
b4o$o3bo$4bo5bo2bo$o2bo5bo$9bo3bo$9b4o!
The Catalogue page already has a six-glider synthesis of it, but I would argue that mine is better because it allows for two more degrees of freedom. Because I have only gone through a small fraction of all of the possible two-XWSS collisions (It's less than one-twelfth because using the same XWSS and examining 180° collisions each create redundancies due to symmetry.), it's quite possible that one of the collisions creates at least one object that was not previously known to be synthesizable with six or fewer gliders—unless someone else has already examined all of the two-XWSS collisions, in which case I'd like the link for that.
Marine has a non-centered Moore neighborhood and at least one gun with a very high period (11,843).
I'm in the process of reducing the glider cost of universal construction.

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Re: One Glider Seeds

Post by bubblegum » September 14th, 2020, 6:14 pm

MathAndCode wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 10:01 pm
dvgrn wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:55 pm
MathAndCode wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:38 pm
If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has already been developed, why do you need a MWSS-to-G converter? If unidirectional XWSS-based construction has not been developed, then how can you construct a MWSS-to-G converter?
For the second question, you can easily build an MWSS-to-G converter by compiling it with slsparse, to get the slow glider salvo you need to build it starting from a block.

Then you put together the simplest possible universal toolkit for slow *WSSes -- a recipe to split one block into two blocks, a recipe to produce a glider+block starting from a block, and recipes to move a block (1,0), (0,1), (-1,0), and (0,-1) -- or any other set of four moves that can collectively move a block any distance in any direction.

This is enough to allow for shooting *WSSes a very long distance, and convert them to gliders at the last moment to build a standard slow glider-salvo recipe. In a sense it's still "unidirectional XWSS-based construction", but it's not the same as hitting a target directly with *WSSes to build things directly. There's a 45-degree "slow^2 elbow" between the *WSSes and the target, which is much less efficient but much more convenient than inventing a whole new slsparse with a direct *WSS construction library.
I find it somewhat surprising that with all of the advancements that have been made in glider construction, culminating in universal construction with only one lane or with two lanes with fixed parity, we still don't have a better way to do universal construction with XWSSes. I suppose that now that glider construction has become so advanced, Life enthusiasts will eventually start running out of room for improvement and start developing XWSS construction instead. Should I start a thread for this now? I'll probably start one at latest when I finish working on universal construction (possible with only nineteen gliders)—unless I will have had another idea for how to contribute to Conway's Game of Life that I think would be better beforehand.
I've started looking into two-XWSS collisions. Specifically, I've looked at all of the 180° LWSS-LWSS collisions where the two LWSSes have the same parity. Here's a way to collide two LWSSes to make xs14_64lb8ozw11:

Code: Select all

x = 14, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
b4o$o3bo$4bo5bo2bo$o2bo5bo$9bo3bo$9b4o!
The Catalogue page already has a six-glider synthesis of it, but I would argue that mine is better because it allows for two more degrees of freedom. Because I have only gone through a small fraction of all of the possible two-XWSS collisions (It's less than one-twelfth because using the same XWSS and examining 180° collisions each create redundancies due to symmetry.), it's quite possible that one of the collisions creates at least one object that was not previously known to be synthesizable with six or fewer gliders—unless someone else has already examined all of the two-XWSS collisions, in which case I'd like the link for that.
They have, and the XWSS+G collisions.
download/file.php?id=2121
Each day is a hidden opportunity, a frozen waterfall that's waiting to be realised, and one that I'll probably be ignoring
bubblegum wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:33 pm
conwaylife signatures are amazing[citation needed]
part-time stator reducer

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