Thread for basic questions

[ColorfulGabrielsp138]

(And incomplete, as I would prefer it contain both period and bits for oscillators, for example.)

You can try this: x3p2_7 (it just won't load sample soups and comments)

[yujh]

(And incomplete, as I would prefer it contain both period and bits for oscillators, for example.)

You can try this: x3p2_7 (it just won't load sample soups and comments)

It is just a magical example that fits the apgcode. False claim.

[bibunsekibun]

Is there an Phi Spark Synthesis?

[yujh]

Is there an Phi Spark Synthesis?

............^
............|
I don’t think there should be an n
Anyways, yes, but I don’t think there’s a clean 2g one

[Selena Silverstep]

Is it possible to run apgsearch using custom seeds?

[JP21]

Is there a Phi Spark Synthesis?

I have these lying around:

Code: Select all

x = 61, y = 50, rule = B3/S23
13b2o$6b3o4bobo$8bo4bo$7bo4$16b2o$16bobo$16bo$6b2o$7b2o$6bo$50bo$37b3o
9b2o$39bo9bobo$38bo3$31b3o$33bo$32bo$7b2o$3o4bobo$2bo4bo$bo4$10b2o$10b
obo$10bo2$58bo$57b2o$57bobo2$49b3o$51bo$21bo28bo$20b2o17bo$20bobo15b2o
18b3o$38bobo17bo$12b3o44bo$14bo15b3o$13bo18bo$31bo$20b2o19b3o$20bobo
18bo$20bo21bo!

[mniemiec]

Is there an Phi Spark Synthesis?

The easiest way to make a phi is via a glider-blinker collision. There is also a 2-glider collision that edge-shoots a phi with some junk behind it; there are many ways of suppressing that junk with a third glider, if necessary:

Code: Select all

x = 26, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
24bo$23bo$o22b3o$o20bo$o19boo$bboo16bobo$bbobo$bbo!

[MathAndCode]

The easiest way to make a phi is via a glider-blinker collision.

A boat also can serve as a one-glider seed for a phi spark.

Code: Select all

x = 5, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
3bo$2bobo$3b2o5$bo$b2o$obo!

[dvgrn]

Is it possible to run apgsearch using custom seeds?

Yes! A starting point is Catagolue as a generic pattern inventory.

It does seem as if there should be a quick LifeWiki tutorial written giving all the details of an example of how to run a set of RLEs through apgsearch and upload them to Catagolue. With enough encouragement I might try doing that for some sample database -- the current set of octohash collisions, let's say, just to see if any likely-looking expensive objects show up where a synthesis might be improved.

If you're familiar with piping the output of one executable to the input of another, then a thread like this one, plus a little experimentation, should be enough to get something working.

EDIT: Here's another thread that was helpful for figuring out some of the rules -- how to recompile apgsearch, pass in -t 0 to upload to Catagolue, etc.

[MathAndCode]

Are these the smallest known loafer predecessors?

Code: Select all

x = 109, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
5b2o18b2o18b2o18b2o18b2o18b2o$5bo19bo19bo19bo19bo19bo$o4b2o18b2o12bo5b
2o18b2o11bo6b2o18b2o$o6bo10bo8bo12bo6bo12bo6bo12bo6bo12bo6bo$o18b4o17b
2o17b3o18b2o17b3o$o6bo19bo12bo6bo14bo4bo12bo6bo19bo$bo6bo19bo19bo19bo
19bo13bo5bo$8bo19bo19bo19bo19bo19bo$8bo19bo19bo19bo19bo19bo$7bo19bo19b
o19bo19bo19bo$7bo19bo19bo19bo19bo19bo$5bo19bo19bo19bo19bo19bo!

[Selena Silverstep]

Is it possible to run apgsearch using custom seeds?

Yes! A starting point is Catagolue as a generic pattern inventory.

It does seem as if there should be a quick LifeWiki tutorial written giving all the details of an example of how to run a set of RLEs through apgsearch and upload them to Catagolue. With enough encouragement I might try doing that for some sample database -- the current set of octohash collisions, let's say, just to see if any likely-looking expensive objects show up where a synthesis might be improved.

If you're familiar with piping the output of one executable to the input of another, then a thread like this one, plus a little experimentation, should be enough to get something working.

Thank you for the reply! To clarify, as long as the symmetry is not recognized, the program will read RLEs from stdin instead of generating soups from SHA of a random seed, is that right? Does the symmetry have to end with 'stdin'?

[wwei47]

I just tell the Python apgsearch to open a file for the first soup then use a blank grid for the other soups. It's useful for sorting through JLS search results.
https://catagolue.hatsya.com/census/b3s ... 3_patterns

[bubblegum]

To clarify, as long as the symmetry is not recognized, the program will read RLEs from stdin instead of generating soups from SHA of a random seed, is that right? Does the symmetry have to end with 'stdin'?

"Unofficial" symmetries are used for apgsearch hacks, mainly. They do generate soups from SHA, but the source code is modified to interpret the result differently. Of course, this serious use of these symmetries is not the only one.

Any symmetry containing "stdin" will instead be a stdin symmetry.

[yujh]

How can I make apgsearch(python or compiled) make the 'stdin' soups? (e.g. 4g)

[JP21]

Why has this pattern been ignored for so long? (7 months)

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 29, rule = B3/S23
o$3o$3bo$2b2o3$3b2o$2bobo4bo$2bo5bobo$3bo4bobo$3o6bo$o17b2o$18bo$16bob
o$16b2o2$6b2o$5bo2bo$5bo2bo$4bo4bo$4bo4bo$5b4o$4b2o2b2o$4bo4bo$4bo4bo
3$5b4o$6b2o!

Is it that useless?

[dvgrn]

Why has this pattern been ignored for so long? (7 months)

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 29, rule = B3/S23
o$3o$3bo$2b2o3$3b2o$2bobo4bo$2bo5bobo$3bo4bobo$3o6bo$o17b2o$18bo$16bob
o$16b2o2$6b2o$5bo2bo$5bo2bo$4bo4bo$4bo4bo$5b4o$4b2o2b2o$4bo4bo$4bo4bo
3$5b4o$6b2o!

Is it that useless?

It hasn't really been ignored, has it? You put a link to the original copy of it on the Spaceship Stable Circuitry, so it can be found when it's needed. No need to re-post -- though you can certainly post links to anything I've forgotten to link to in the Stable Signal Circuitry first post. I've done that now for the above copperhead-to-G converter.

It's certainly not useless -- 149-tick recovery beats the previous copperhead-to-G that I had linked, by a nice wide margin. The old recovery time was 495 ticks. because a long boat had to be cleaned up. No cleanup beats even single-stage cleanup any day!

[MathAndCode]

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 29, rule = B3/S23
o$3o$3bo$2b2o3$3b2o$2bobo4bo$2bo5bobo$3bo4bobo$3o6bo$o17b2o$18bo$16bob
o$16b2o2$6b2o$5bo2bo$5bo2bo$4bo4bo$4bo4bo$5b4o$4b2o2b2o$4bo4bo$4bo4bo
3$5b4o$6b2o!

There's a replacement catalyst for when a block turns into a P-pentomino in that way? I was unaware. Thank you for informing me.

Code: Select all

x = 21, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
3bo13bo$3bo13bo$obo11bobo$bo13bo2$b2o12b2o$b2o8b2o2bo2bo$10bobo3b2obo
$10bo8bo$9b2o8b2o!

Edit: I have added it to the catalyses tutorial.

[dvgrn]

How can I make apgsearch(python or compiled) make the 'stdin' soups? (e.g. 4g)

To clarify, as long as the symmetry is not recognized, the program will read RLEs from stdin instead of generating soups from SHA of a random seed, is that right? Does the symmetry have to end with 'stdin'?

There's a new draft of a tutorial about stdin symmetry on LifeWiki now. If any regular users of apgluxe's stdin functionality want to look it over and clarify anything I said that was wrong, confusing, or downright silly, that would be a Good Thing.

The tutorial doesn't entirely answer the question about re-creating the 4g soups. I think there's a brief walkthrough of that -- piping the output of a program into apgluxe, rather than piping the contents of a text file into it -- at this link that I gave before.

However, the tutorial does document the steps I had to go through to make my own custom "stdin" symmetry to census all 455,380 collisions in the octohash database. It seemed very straightforward, so I hope I've successfully explained how to do this kind of thing for similar census projects.

(As far as the octohash database census results go, I don't think anything particularly exciting showed up; I only checked the biggest 19-bit and 20-bit still lifes that appeared, and they certainly aren't going to set any records for a synthesis of those objects. The sample results are all posted at the bottom of the tutorial if anyone wants to look through them.)

[Ian07]

(As far as the octohash database census results go, I don't think anything particularly exciting showed up; I only checked the biggest 19-bit and 20-bit still lifes that appeared, and they certainly aren't going to set any records for a synthesis of those objects. The sample results are all posted at the bottom of the tutorial if anyone wants to look through them.)

Yep, can confirm there aren't any improvements in there.

[MathAndCode]

Does this count as a shuttle, or is the hassled region only allowed to make 180° turns?

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x = 18, y = 18, rule = B2ci3aik4c5ry6a7e/S1e2aei3-cnry4eiyz5aeir6ei8
10bo$10bo$12bo$11b2o2$2b2o$3bo$2o3$8bo2bo4b2o$8bo2bo2bo$8bo2bo2b2o2$5b
2o$5bo$7bo$7bo!

Edit: What about this p84 oscillator? Is it a shuttle, or are the pseudo-catalysts, not the snowflake, considered to be hassled?

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 5, rule = B2ci3aik4c5ry6a7e/S1e2aei3-cnry4eiyz5aeir6ei8
2o16b2o$3bo$2b2o3b3o6b2o$16bo$2o16b2o!

[dvgrn]

Does this count as a shuttle, or is the hassled region only allowed to make 180° turns?

Code: Select all

x = 18, y = 18, rule = B2ci3aik4c5ry6a7e/S1e2aei3-cnry4eiyz5aeir6ei8
10bo$10bo$12bo$11b2o2$2b2o$3bo$2o3$8bo2bo4b2o$8bo2bo2bo$8bo2bo2b2o2$5b
2o$5bo$7bo$7bo!

Since the definition of a shuttle includes the idea of "back and forth", not "round and round", I'd say that this oscillator is a hassler but not a shuttle.

Edit: What about this p84 oscillator? Is it a shuttle, or are the pseudo-catalysts, not the snowflake, considered to be hassled?

Guess I'd still call that a shuttle, or maybe a "shuttle with pseudo-catalysts", and the pseudo-catalysts do get hassled by the snowflake. It doesn't seem like it has to be an either/or choice.

[pcallahan]

Since the definition of a shuttle includes the idea of "back and forth", not "round and round", I'd say that this oscillator is a hassler but not a shuttle.

I agree that a shuttle has to go back and forth. I am not sure what to call a "round and round." Even the transportation metaphor doesn't yield anything better than "loop."

The question gave me a flashback to 49P88, which I have never thought of as a shuttle, despite taking a 180° turn. I still would not call it a shuttle. The classic shuttles are p30 and p46, which are both symmetric (ignoring catalysts) and can be thought of as flips as well as 180° turns. Maybe that is too strict as a definition, but I think it's my intuition when looking at something and deciding if it's a shuttle.

The p84 above looks like a shuttle and is flip-symmetric for at least part of its trajectory.

[MathAndCode]

The question gave me a flashback to 49P88, which I have never thought of as a shuttle, despite taking a 180° turn. I still would not call it a shuttle. The classic shuttles are p30 and p46, which are both symmetric (ignoring catalysts) and can be thought of as flips as well as 180° turns. Maybe that is too strict as a definition, but I think it's my intuition when looking at something and deciding if it's a shuttle.

I would arguable that 49P88 is more of a shuttle than the p29 pre-pulsar hassler, which is commonly called a shuttle, because in 49P88, the hassled region goes both directions in the same way, which is impossible for any odd-period oscillator.

[wwei47]

I would arguable that 49P88 is more of a shuttle than the p29 pre-pulsar hassler, which is commonly called a shuttle, because in 49P88, the hassled region goes both directions in the same way, which is impossible for any odd-period oscillator.

I thought the lifewiki shuttle page implies that the P29 is valid as a shuttle.

[mniemiec]

The question gave me a flashback to 49P88, which I have never thought of as a shuttle, despite taking a 180° turn. I still would not call it a shuttle. The classic shuttles are p30 and p46, which are both symmetric (ignoring catalysts) and can be thought of as flips as well as 180° turns. Maybe that is too strict as a definition, but I think it's my intuition when looking at something and deciding if it's a shuttle.

I would arguable that 49P88 is more of a shuttle than the p29 pre-pulsar hassler, which is commonly called a shuttle, because in 49P88, the hassled region goes both directions in the same way, which is impossible for any odd-period oscillator.

The LifeWiki definition is close, but I don't think it's exactly correct, at least from my memory of how the term was initially used back in the Scientific American and Lifeline days. They key feature of shuttles (as distinguished from other pulsators) is that their active regions move a substantial distance. While it's true that all of Life's common natural shuttles (e.g. queen bee and twin bees) share two additional properties (i.e. bilateral glide symmetry, and the fact that their mechanisms must be assisted by additional non-moving components), these are not necessary properties, and there are common shuttles in other rules that don't share them, e.g. ones that operate without any outside assistance, or ones with C4 rotational symmetry, or ones with no glide symmetry, that move forwards and backwards using different mechanisms (so are capable of having odd periods).

E.g. in B3/S2ae3aeijr4-ckqy there is a natural P280 suttle with C4 glide symmetry; it moves a substantial distance every 70 generations, leaving huge clean plumes, and rotating 90°. It moves sufficiently far that two copies of it can co-exist in the same area. Placing two exactly 140 generations out of phase creates a true P140 oscillator, as the plumes interact trivially, but advancing one of the shuttles a bit (e.g. 8 generations here) allows the two copies to rotate totally independent of each other, resulting in two totally separate and independent shuttle oscillators that occupy the same space.

Code: Select all

x = 81, y = 68, rule = B3/S2ae3aeijr4-ckqy
76boo$3o57b3o14bobo$obo57bobo14b3o$bboo58boo58$60b3o$60bobo13boo$62boo
12boo$77bo$76booboo$77b3o$78bo!

49P88 would qualify as a shuttle, even under the narrower Lifewiki definition, because if you look at a 3D map of its active cells, at areas occupied at opposite ends of its travels (e.g. the pi heptomino evolutions) do not overlap.