ConwayLife.com

Posted: **September 20th, 2015, 8:03 am**

Scorbie wrote:Simsim got state 3 and state 4 the other way around.

Woops...thx! Fixed now...

Posted: **September 20th, 2015, 8:33 am**

simsim314 wrote:
rowett wrote:If you think this is an important feature to surface on the UI I'll see if I can squeeze it in.
I think that move back is as natural as move forward. I would also suggest to ask other forum members - in my opinion the button controls is very natural place for the play-back.

I'd agree -- it would be nice to have a step-back button just to the left of the step-forward button. Half of the reason to have it would be to advertise the new functionality. Otherwise it might not be not at all obvious to a new user.

Come to think of it, it''s almost worth having "H=help" text show up somewhere sometimes, to help people unlock all the hidden functions. Maybe at the bottom of non-executable viewers, where the controls would ordinarily be? It would be nice to give users feedback as to exactly why there are no viewer controls, also -- i.e., is it a VIEWONLY script tag or an unsupported rule?

simsim314 wrote:Generally LifeHistory has two more states other than what is the viewer. In the viewer we have
0 - empty (black).
1 - active (green).
2 - something was there a while ago (blue).

State 2 in the viewer is even cooler as it has coloring for history as well (how long ago something was in that cell).

LifeHistory adds only 2 more states (for 99% of the relevant usage)...

There's one more very common usage detail involving state 2, that can also be handled by a round of pre-processing at T=0 for LifeHistory patterns.

Have a look at this post by simeks, for example. At T=0, the state 2 cells give a nice clear picture of the conduit's "reaction envelope" -- something that only shows up in the viewer after you run the pattern. In particular, the path of the new output glider, freed up by simeks' new discovery, is clearly visible in the subpattern in the upper right:

Code: Select all

x = 156, y = 80, rule = LifeHistory

18.A4.2A8.A110.4B$17.A.A2.A.A6.3A109.4B$16.A2.4A7.A101.2A8.4B$16.A.A

4.A6.2A96.A.A2.A7.4B3.A$15.2A.2A2.2A4.4B94.3A.2A8.4B3.A.A$13.A4.B3.4B

.3B95.A4.B8.4B4.A.A$10.A2.4AB2AB3.6B92.A2.4AB2AB5.4B4.2A.2A$10.3A3.A.

2AB.7B.B91.3A3.A.2AB.2B.4B6.B$13.A4.14B93.A4.10B6.2AB2A3.2A$12.2AB4.

12B3.2B88.2AB4.9B6.2A.A.A.A.A$12.5B.20B86.5B.12B3.4B2.A.A$14.25B87.

23B.2A.2A$12.28B84.25B$12.28B84.25B$11.28B84.27B$11.28B84.27B$12.26BD

B84.25B$11.25B3DB83.21B.4B.2B2.2A$9.20B2.5BDBD82.20B5.3B2ABA2.A$7.19B

5.5BD82.19B10.ABAB3A$7.2BE16B5.5B83.2BC16B10.A.A$6.3BEBE4B.9B6.3B83.

3BCBC4B.9B8.3A.5A$7.2B3E4B2.7B94.2B3C4B2.7B8.A3.A4.A$6.5BE4B3.5B94.5B

C4B3.5B9.2A2.A.A$5.10B5.4B93.10B5.3B15.2A$4.4B10.4B.B2A90.4B10.7B$4.

3B11.2A3.BA.A88.4B11.2A.B.2A$2.4B13.A6.A104.A3.A$2.2A12.3A7.2A100.3A

5.3A$3.A12.A111.A9.A$3A$A19$19.2A$16.2A2.A$14.3A.2A8.2B$13.A4.B8.3B$

10.A2.4AB2AB5.5B$10.3A3.A.2AB.2B.6B$13.A4.14B$12.2AB4.14B7.2A$12.5B.

15B7.A$14.22B.BA.A$12.24B.B2A$12.26B$11.27B$11.27B$12.20BD2B2D$11.20B

2.3D$9.20B5.D$7.19B$7.2BE16B$6.3BEBE4B.9B$7.2B3E4B2.7B$6.5BE4B3.5B$5.

10B5.3B$4.4B10.7B$4.3B11.2A.B.2A$2.4B13.A3.A$2.2A12.3A5.3A$3.A12.A9.A

$3A$A!

#C [[ VIEWONLY THUMBNAIL HEIGHT 360 ZOOM 4 ]]

Currently if there's a VIEWONLY tag, as above, then the reaction envelope and marked cells are displayed very nicely, but nobody gets to run the pattern, which is really no fun at all... Without the VIEWONLY tag, the output Herschel location isn't visible, and you only see the reaction envelope after you run the pattern for the right length of time (which is sometimes a very long time, e.g., for high-period oscillators or guns.)

Is it possible for state 2 cells to be shown right away at T=0 in the viewer, as faded reaction-envelope cells?

-------------------------------------

I'd agree that it's not at all important to have state 6 work as it does in LifeHistory. State 6 was intended to allow long-running glider-emitting patterns to be safely placed next to each other in stamp collections, so that you could watch the evolution of something in one "pane" of a stamp collection without having a glider from some related pattern next door crash into it and make a mess, just when things were getting interesting.

Almost nobody has ever used state 6 for that purpose, and grey cells can have various adverse effects -- messing up Golly's random fills, and generally making LifeHistory not behave like regular Life when they're present. Probably it wasn't a very good idea to include state 6 in the rule definition, but that's water under the bridge at this point.

Based on current usage, the viewer could simply convert State 6 to a second marked-OFF state -- handle it exactly the same as state 4 but give it a different color. A highly visible color might be good, to put users on notice that there are state-6 cells here and the pattern might work a little differently in Golly.

Really the only actual patterns that will work really differently, especially for the first hundred ticks or so, can be found in this thread. I think there's absolutely no point in contaminating the viewer with the code required to support those few special-purpose patterns -- except in a "Molly" version that supports arbitrary multistate rules, of course.

99+% of LifeHistory patterns don't have state 6 cells at all, so those are definitely the patterns to concentrate on having good support for.

Posted: **September 20th, 2015, 9:03 am**

dvgrn wrote:At T=0, the state 2 cells give a nice clear picture of the conduit's "reaction envelope"

I agree - but i think the viewer has already state2 and the option not to alter the blue brightness. Just saying that the viewer is already not just "2 state viewer", it has pretty advanced and smart coloring system built in already. All you need for LifeHistory is to add just a bit of extra functionality (I even could write it I guess - If I would be given the source code).

Posted: **September 20th, 2015, 11:17 am**

Scorbie wrote:When I run a pattern, reset, and press space, gen 1 becomes the gen when I clicked reset. And it starts running from that gen. On windows 10 IE 11 and android (touch instead of space)

This has been fixed and will be in the next released build.

Posted: **September 20th, 2015, 11:27 am**

simsim314 wrote:
dvgrn wrote:At T=0, the state 2 cells give a nice clear picture of the conduit's "reaction envelope"
I agree - but i think the viewer has already state2 and the option not to alter the blue brightness.

The viewer doesn't currently have the option to show arbitrary patterns in state 2 at T=0. You can fake the most common usage with a script that runs a gun or oscillator quickly through one cycle, and then pauses, but that doesn't work so well for things like Herschel conduits, or for really high-period objects like complex signal circuitry, where it's particularly useful to be able to show all the signal tracks -- but also retain the ability to run the pattern.

It seems as if the state 2 display capability is certainly there, and it wouldn't be too horribly difficult to add it as a special case thing to do for LifeHistory. It just doesn't do that for LifeHistory right now, so I'm hoping it can be added along with the other suggested changes to support states 3 through 5.

Posted: **September 20th, 2015, 1:52 pm**

rowett wrote:
Scorbie wrote:When I run a pattern, reset, and press space, gen 1 becomes the gen when I clicked reset. And it starts running from that gen. On windows 10 IE 11 and android (touch instead of space)
This has been fixed and will be in the next released build.

As always, thanks a lot!

Posted: **September 20th, 2015, 3:52 pm**

dvgrn wrote:It seems as if the state 2 display capability is certainly there, and it wouldn't be too horribly difficult to add it as a special case thing to do for LifeHistory. It just doesn't do that for LifeHistory right now, so I'm hoping it can be added along with the other suggested changes to support states 3 through 5.

Yes it's coming. I have a working prototype with all states at T=0 and then 3 and 4 overlayed during execution. I've also created a new Theme for LifeHistory patterns so the execution uses the LifeHistory colours (albeit with some fade, because it's cool).

Posted: **September 20th, 2015, 4:00 pm**

dvgrn wrote:
simsim314 wrote:
rowett wrote:If you think this is an important feature to surface on the UI I'll see if I can squeeze it in.
I think that move back is as natural as move forward. I would also suggest to ask other forum members - in my opinion the button controls is very natural place for the play-back.
I'd agree -- it would be nice to have a step-back button just to the left of the step-forward button. Half of the reason to have it would be to advertise the new functionality. Otherwise it might not be not at all obvious to a new user.

dvgrn wrote:Come to think of it, it''s almost worth having "H=help" text show up somewhere sometimes, to help people unlock all the hidden functions. Maybe at the bottom of non-executable viewers, where the controls would ordinarily be? It would be nice to give users feedback as to exactly why there are no viewer controls, also -- i.e., is it a VIEWONLY script tag or an unsupported rule?

Good idea. I'm also debating having the navigation menu (bottom right, which displays the Zoom, Angle, Depth and Layer controls) display an extra row of controls at the top of the screen perhaps with things like: Grid on/off, Help, Loop on/off, Fit Zoom, Autofit etc. Thoughts and comments welcome.

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 4:14 am**

rowett wrote:Yes it's coming. I have a working prototype with all states at T=0 and then 3 and 4 overlayed during execution. I've also created a new Theme for LifeHistory patterns so the execution uses the LifeHistory colours (albeit with some fade, because it's cool).

Great, thx!

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 5:18 am**

The LifeHistory prototype is here. Please let me know if it's working as expected.

Note this is still work in progress:

the Fit Zoom function doesn't yet take into account anything other than states 0 and 1
the LifeHistory Theme (Theme 10) isn't yet automatically defaulted
the extra states are only drawn at Zoom levels of 1x or higher

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 9:29 am**

rowett wrote:The LifeHistory prototype is here. Please let me know if it's working as expected.

Yes, it looks really good.

If it's not too difficult to make the change, it probably makes more sense to color any state-2 cells present at T=0 with the oldest, most faded background color. That way, for example, a gun or high-period oscillator can be set up to look almost the same for its first cycle as for subsequent cycles -- still some subtle shading differences, but very close. The old-background color is a better match for the standard uses of LifeHistory state-2 cells.

Will it be possible for a script to apply other themes besides #10 to a LifeHistory pattern, with states 3 through 6 defaulting to the standard white, yellow, red, and blue-gray colors, but changeable with COLOR n script commands?

Looks like state-6 gray cells are displayed at T=0, but then disappear in later generations. Could gray be set up as an alternate "marked" color, so that it's handled the same way as red state-3 cells? Definitely not a high-priority item... In a way it might be just as good to leave things as they are. Two working types of markable OFF cells might set up the temptation for people to build patterns that only work "properly" in the viewer, and break horribly when pasted into Golly because of the impolite non-standard-Life behavior of real gray cells.

-- I got some slightly strange behavior out of the viewer by putting in state-7 cells in a LifeHistory pattern. State-7 cells are treated as state 1, but are not displayed by the prototype viewer until T=1:

Code: Select all

x = 140, y = 83, rule = LifeHistory
45.2G3.2G41.2G3.2G$44.G2.G.G2.G39.G2.G.G2.G$46.G2.G2.G35.3G3.G2.G2.G$
45.G3.G2.G40.G3.G2.G$44.4G2.2G40.4G2.2G2$40.G3.2G53.G3.2G$39.2G2.G2.G
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9G$.2G2.G2.G3.G27.G2.G2.G10.A2BA19.A2BA15.G2.G2.G22.2G2.G2.G3.G$.2G2.
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A2BA6.4B15.4B6.A2BA15.G2.G2.G$27.3G2.2G7.3A6.4B6.A2BA13.A2BA6.4B6.3A
6.3G2.2G$41.A3B6.A2BA6.4B11.4B6.A2BA6.3BA$21.2G3.2G14.A2BA6.4B6.AB13.
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7.4G2.2G$37.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA19.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA$38.4B6.A2BA6.4B17.4B6.A2B
A6.4B$39.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA15.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA$40.4B6.A2BA6.4B13.4B6.A2BA6.
4B$41.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA11.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA$42.4B6.AB8.4B9.4B8.BA6.4B$43.A
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46.4B41.4B$47.AB43.BA$69.3G20.B$70.CG$69.3G$47.AB43.BA$46.4B41.4B$45.
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42.4B6.AB8.4B9.4B8.BA6.4B$41.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA11.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA$40.4B6.A
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6.4B17.4B6.A2BA6.4B$37.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA19.A2BA6.4B6.A2BA$21.2G3.2G8.A3B
6.A2BA6.4B21.4B6.A2BA6.3BA8.2G3.2G$20.G2.G.G2.G7.3A6.4B6.A2BA23.A2BA
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21.G3.G2.G14.4B6.A2BA27.A2BA6.4B15.G3.G2.G$20.4G2.2G14.A2BA6.4B6.AB
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3A6.4B6.A2BA13.A2BA6.4B6.3A7.G3.2G$27.2G2.G2.G14.A2BA6.4B15.4B6.A2BA
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4B6.A2BA14.2G$2.4G.3G.3G23.G2.G12.4B6.A2BA7.A2BA6.4B12.G2.G25.4G.6G$.
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G.G27.G3.2G12.4B17.4B16.G3.2G27.G2.G$.G3.G2.G.G.G26.2G2.G2.G10.A2BA
19.A2BA14.2G2.G2.G22.G3.G2.G3.G$.4G4.G.G28.G2.G2.G9.A3B21.3BA9.3G2.G
2.G2.G22.4G2.6G$40.G2.G2.G9.3A23.3A14.G2.G2.G$39.3G2.2G52.3G2.2G2$45.
2G3.2G41.2G3.2G$44.G2.G.G2.G39.G2.G.G2.G$46.G2.G2.G35.3G3.G2.G2.G$45.
G3.G2.G40.G3.G2.G$44.4G2.2G40.4G2.2G!

I don't think it matters much what happens in this case as long as the viewer doesn't crash. As far as I know, the above is the only LifeHistory pattern ever made with state-7 cells.

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 11:07 am**

rowett wrote: Please let me know if it's working as expected.

Wow this is great! I would suggest to use this theme to "Show in viewer" for LifeHistory patterns automatically - and this by itself is cool release.

I saw that for some reason the green has also "fade out" effect like the blue - this is a bit strange for me. Not sure that it's bad - just be aware of it.

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 11:23 am**

dvgrn wrote:If it's not too difficult to make the change, it probably makes more sense to color any state-2 cells present at T=0 with the oldest, most faded background color.

Done.

dvgrn wrote:Will it be possible for a script to apply other themes besides #10 to a LifeHistory pattern, with states 3 through 6 defaulting to the standard white, yellow, red, and blue-gray colors, but changeable with COLOR n script commands?

Yes, it's on the backlog. It half works now (after T=0).

dvgrn wrote:Looks like state-6 gray cells are displayed at T=0, but then disappear in later generations. Could gray be set up as an alternate "marked" color, so that it's handled the same way as red state-3 cells? Definitely not a high-priority item... In a way it might be just as good to leave things as they are. Two working types of markable OFF cells might set up the temptation for people to build patterns that only work "properly" in the viewer, and break horribly when pasted into Golly because of the impolite non-standard-Life behavior of real gray cells.

All states are displayed at T=0. After that it just displays a supported subset. Based on your comments I'm leaving it as it is

dvgrn wrote:I got some slightly strange behavior out of the viewer by putting in state-7 cells in a LifeHistory pattern. State-7 cells are treated as state 1, but are not displayed by the prototype viewer until T=1

That's because LifeViewer thinks LifeHistory doesn't have a state 7 (there wasn't a colour for it in the colour table). It's probably being drawn in black (on the black background) for T=0 and then collapsed down to a live state for execution. It certainly won't crash.
Also, I tried to open that pattern in Golly and Molly and they both complained.

The updated prototype can be tried here. This version has the state-2 cells with the oldest faded colour and defaults LifeHistory patterns to Theme 10.

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 12:02 pm**

rowett wrote:The updated prototype can be tried here. This version has the state-2 cells with the oldest faded colour and defaults LifeHistory patterns to Theme 10.

I haven't found any problems with this build yet, other than the work-in-progress items on your list a few messages back. Everything seems to work as expected even with multiple layers and different depth settings.

Yes, having the unsupported gray cells disappear after T=0 seems like a fairly elegant solution, all things considered.

rowett wrote:LifeViewer thinks LifeHistory doesn't have a state 7 (there wasn't a colour for it in the colour table)

Right, it doesn't -- I just like trying to break things.

Thanks again for all the good work on LifeViewer recently!

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 2:06 pm**

simsim314 wrote:Hey many thanks for the go back option - I would suggest to add it to the buttons controls (if this is not too complex).

The updated prototype with the "step back" button can be tried here.

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 2:18 pm**

rowett wrote:The updated prototype with the "step back" button can be tried here.

Generally works good - my intuition says that pause should be to the left of play and to the right of step back, but probably we should ask other users as well (or is it something technical that can't be switched around?).

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 2:51 pm**

simsim314 wrote:
rowett wrote:The updated prototype with the "step back" button can be tried here.
Generally works good - my intuition says that pause should be to the left of play and to the right of step back, but probably we should ask other users as well (or is it something technical that can't be switched around?).

It's simple to change so whatever people prefer.

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 3:36 pm**

simsim314 wrote:...my intuition says that pause should be to the left of play and to the right of step back, but probably we should ask other users as well...

I'd definitely agree. If I use the toolbar to hunt for just the right generation, I'd like to be able to go back and forth between step-forward and step-back without having to cross the Play button every time.

I also very much like the idea of changing the Pause button face to a Step Forward icon when the viewer is paused.

Is the mouse event handling system flexible enough to allow a long mouse click to repeatedly trigger a button? I.e., if you hold down the left mouse button on the Step Forward or Step Back buttons, could it step forward or back multiple times (after an appropriate starting delay)? Or will that require multiple clicks? Sometimes you want to advance or reverse a fair number of generations, but the Play button is sure to overshoot.

-- And there isn't a symmetrical Reverse Play button, of course, but with a way to hold down the Step Back button you wouldn't need that.

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 4:15 pm**

dvgrn wrote:s the mouse event handling system flexible enough to allow a long mouse click to repeatedly trigger a button?

There is a neat trick being used in some systems: if you hold and drug the mouse to the right the generations evolve, and when you drug to the left the generation go back - nice thing to have, I would not suggest to hold back a release for this feature. I think that if I would want some nice mouse control I would prefer left-right drug over long button down (usually the evolution then comes too quick and you go back to use multi-click/multi-space instead of long mouse down).

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 4:22 pm**

dvgrn wrote:
simsim314 wrote:...my intuition says that pause should be to the left of play and to the right of step back, but probably we should ask other users as well...
I'd definitely agree. If I use the toolbar to hunt for just the right generation, I'd like to be able to go back and forth between step-forward and step-back without having to cross the Play button every time.

I also very much like the idea of changing the Pause button face to a Step Forward icon when the viewer is paused.

The updated prototype with the reordered playback controls and the Pause button face changing to a Step Forward when paused is here. The step back hotkey "b" will also now pause during playback.

dvgrn wrote:Is the mouse event handling system flexible enough to allow a long mouse click to repeatedly trigger a button? I.e., if you hold down the left mouse button on the Step Forward or Step Back buttons, could it step forward or back multiple times (after an appropriate starting delay)? Or will that require multiple clicks?

Not at the moment but given I built the UI library anything is possible...

Posted: **September 21st, 2015, 4:58 pm**

@dvgrn - did you notice the bleak green (evolve the first pattern for 300-400 generations). It's maybe just me, but it somehow bothers me a bit, what do you think? Maybe rowett can make it just a bit more greenish...

@rowett Other than that - just perfect.

EDIT I think the green after few generations becomes a bit too white (which is state 3), and this confuses a bit. I'm sure we get used to it pretty fast, but making it more clearly green would be more natural looking.

Posted: **September 22nd, 2015, 3:34 am**

simsim314 wrote:I think the green after few generations becomes a bit too white (which is state 3), and this confuses a bit. I'm sure we get used to it pretty fast, but making it more clearly green would be more natural looking.

Try this one:

It should be greener
Fit Zoom is improved
There's a new help button top right

Posted: **September 22nd, 2015, 6:22 am**

rowett wrote:Try this one:

For some reason - the white doesn't leave red trace now (only the yellow).

Other than this small bug - I think it's perfect. The controls are great, coloring, help - everything looks very good.

Posted: **September 22nd, 2015, 10:33 am**

simsim314 wrote:Other than this small bug - I think it's perfect. The controls are great, coloring, help - everything looks very good.

There might still be a case for displaying the extra colors at scales lower than 1x. The second pattern in this post makes a good test case for low scales, and maybe also for gray state-6 cells and the Fit Zoom function. The labels are designed to be big enough to be readable at Fit Zoom scales, but they only pop into existence after you zoom in several times.

I looked through all the LifeHistory and standard Life patterns on the above forum page, with the newest prototype substituted in, and didn't see any other problems besides the one that simsim314 has described.

Posted: **September 22nd, 2015, 12:21 pm**

dvgrn wrote:There might still be a case for displaying the extra colors at scales lower than 1x.

I would argue that if golly doesn't has this feature - javasrcipt viewer can definitely get away with it.

Another argument is that those features are so much desirable for the users - that releasing a version of a viewer with them, is more important than adding extra more features (which could be added later).

As I mentioned the only thing that "missing" (we just can't see it in that test mode) - is that patterns with LifeHistory rule will automatically load with this theme in the external viewer (as after the show in viewer option was added we all started to be much lazier with the viewer in the messages themselves).

ConwayLife.com

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