- What catalyst are you trying to use?
- A fishhook:
- Does the fishhook look like one of these?
Code: Select all
x = 15, y = 5, rule = B3/S23 bo10bo2$obo7b2obo$2bo10bo$2b2o9b2o!- Yes.
Try switching the position of the tail.- The tail is now in the wrong position for another catalysis.
Try replacing the fishhook with an eater 2.
- The tail is now in the wrong position for another catalysis.
- No.
Does the fishhook turn into a ghost fishhook?- Yes.
Why did the fishhook become a ghost fishhook?- The cell two cells in front of the fishhook (from the fishhook's perspective) was on.
Try moving the fishhook one cell down (from the fishhook's perspective) or replacing it with this.Code: Select all
x = 13, y = 11, rule = B3/S23 b2o$bobo$3bo$3b3o$b2o3bo$o2b4o$2obo$3bob2o$3bobo$2b2obobo$6b2o - A domino spark blocked the fishhook from recovering properly.
Try replacing the fishhook with one of these.Code: Select all
x = 13, y = 43, rule = B3/S23 11$7b2o$7bobo$9bo$8b2ob2o$9bobo$6b3o2bo$5bo3b2o$5b4o$8bo$5b2obobo$6bo2b2o$4bobo$4b2o12$5b2o$5bobo$7bo$6b2ob2obo$2b2o2bo2bob2o$bobo3b2o$bo$2o!
- The cell two cells in front of the fishhook (from the fishhook's perspective) was on.
- No.
Does the fishhook fail because it interacts with a spark while it's still recovering or because it recovers too quickly and interacts with a spark before the spark had time to clear?- Yes
Does the fishhook fail because it interacts with a domino spark like this?Code: Select all
x = 7, y = 5, rule = B3/S23 o$o3bo$2b2obo$5bo$5b2o!- Yes.
Try replacing the fishhook with a BTS (bookend-table-snake) catalyst. - No.
Try replacing the fishhook with an eater 2.
- Yes.
- No.
Is the preblock replaced with a boat because the bottom end (from the fishhook's perspective) of the part of the chaos that interacts with the fishhook is insufficiently supported, and there is a line of cells extending far enough upwards (from the fishhook's perspective) that it forms a dot or domino spark that turns a hook with tail into a boat with tail?- Yes.
Is the spark a dot spark or a domino spark?- a dot spark
Try replacing the fishhook with a claw with tail or a dock on fishhook. - a domino spark
Try replacing the fishhook with a claw with tail.
- a dot spark
- No.
Does the fishhook look like one of these?Code: Select all
x = 15, y = 5, rule = B3/S23 11bo$2o9b2o$obo8bobo$obo10bo$2b2o9b2o!- Yes.
Try replacing the fishhook with a bookend next to a fishhook where the bookeend is inducted (induced?) and has the cell at the corner of its tail further stabilized.Code: Select all
x = 6, y = 9, rule = B3/S23 2o$obob2o$2bobo$b2o2bo$3b2o$b2o$2bo$2bobo$3b2o!
- Yes.
- Yes.
- Yes
- Yes.
- Yes.
- Does the fishhook look like one of these?
- An eater 2:
Does the eater 2 fail because it interacts with a spark white it's still recovering?- Yes
Does the eater 2 fail because it interacts with a domino spark like this?Code: Select all
x = 10, y = 8, rule = B3/S23 o$o3bobo$2bobob3o$9bo$3b2ob3o$4bobo$4bobo$5bo!- Yes.
Try replacing the eater 2 with a BTS (bookend-table-snake) catalyst. - No.
Try replacing the eater 2 with a fishhook if you haven't tried a fishhook already.
- Yes.
- No.
Does the eater 2 fail because a cell was born on the outside next to the block and one of the hats (like pictured)?Code: Select all
x = 8, y = 7, rule = B3/S23 b2obo$b2ob3o$o6bo$b2ob3o$2bobo$2bobo$3bo!- Yes.
Does replacing the eater 2 with a fishhook work?- Yes.
Use a fishhook. - No.
Place another catalyst near the eater 2 on the side of the eater 2 where the extra cell was born.
- Yes.
- Yes.
- Yes
- An eater 3:
Does the loaf look like this and then disappear?Code: Select all
x = 5, y = 4, rule = B3/S23 3bo$4bo$2obo$2bo!- Yes.
Place another catalyst on the side of the eater 3 that gets an extra cell so that it will interact with the active object a few generations earlier. If the same problem still happens, move the catalyst so that it interacts with the active object earlier.
- Yes.
- Block
Was the line of cells on one side too long so that the block turned into a second cousin of the century, a blinker (or longer line of cells) formed then killed the block (similarly to an overweight spaceship), or the block died similarly to a phi spark?- Yes.
Does the row/column just behind the leading edge of the chaos that is about to interact with the block have two cells with one directly behind the sole cell on the leading edge so that those two cells are in the same two columns/rows as the block, like pictured?Code: Select all
x = 3, y = 6, rule = B3/S23 3o$2o$o2$2o$2o!- Yes.
Try moving the block by one cell, like pictured.Code: Select all
x = 4, y = 6, rule = B3/S23 b3o$b2o$bo2$2o$2o! - No.
Try placing a fishhook to kill some of those cells during the block's catalysis.
- Yes.
- Yes.
- A fishhook:
MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
-
MathAndCode
- Posts: 5166
- Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm
MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
These are all of the catalysts that I understand well enough to give troubleshooting advice on. If a particular path ends, that does not mean that the problem will necessarily have been fixed. It merely means that I have insufficient knowledge of catalysts to offer further suggestions if the catalyst still doesn't work. I'm sure that someone with more knowledge could make a better troubleshooting guide, but I don't think that anyone else has (although I could be wrong).
Last edited by MathAndCode on November 8th, 2020, 12:57 am, edited 4 times in total.
I am tentatively considering myself back.
- EvinZL
- Posts: 895
- Joined: November 8th, 2018, 4:15 pm
- Location: A tungsten pool travelling towards the sun
- Contact:
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Fishhook
Does the fishhook become this?
Then replace it with this:
Does the fishhook become this?
Code: Select all
x = 4, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
2.A$.A.A$.A$2A!
Code: Select all
x = 8, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
.2A$.A.A$3.A$3.3A$.2A3.A$A2.4A$2A.A$3.A.2A$3.A.A$2.2A.A.A$6.2A!
Code: Select all
x = 8, y = 11, rule = LifeHistory
.2C$.C.C$3.C$3.3C$.2C3.D$C2.4C$2C.C$3.C.2C$3.C.C$2.2C.C.C$6.2C!
-
wwei23
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Some unusual Eater 2 catalyses, if they're of any use to anyone.
Code: Select all
x = 14, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
9bo$8bobo$8bobo$7b2ob3o$13bo$7b2ob3o$o6b2obo$b2o$2o2b3o$6bo$5bo!
[[ T 6 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 7 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 8 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 9 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 10 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 11 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 12 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 13 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 14 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 15 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 16 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 17 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 18 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 19 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 20 PAUSE 0.2 ]]Code: Select all
x = 15, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
4bo$3bobo$3bobo$b3ob2o$o$b3ob2o$3bob2o$13bo$12bobo$11bo2bo$11bobo$11b
2o5$11b2o$11b2o!
[[ T 23 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 24 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 25 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 26 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 27 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 28 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 29 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 30 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 31 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
[[ T 32 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
-
MathAndCode
- Posts: 5166
- Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Thank you. I have added it to the original post.EvinZL wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 2:27 pmFishhook
Does the fishhook become this?Then replace it with this:Code: Select all
x = 4, y = 4, rule = B3/S23 2.A$.A.A$.A$2A!Code: Select all
x = 8, y = 11, rule = B3/S23 .2A$.A.A$3.A$3.3A$.2A3.A$A2.4A$2A.A$3.A.2A$3.A.A$2.2A.A.A$6.2A!Code: Select all
x = 8, y = 11, rule = LifeHistory .2C$.C.C$3.C$3.3C$.2C3.D$C2.4C$2C.C$3.C.2C$3.C.C$2.2C.C.C$6.2C!
'
wwei23 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 2:44 pmSome unusual Eater 2 catalyses, if they're of any use to anyone.Code: Select all
x = 14, y = 11, rule = B3/S23 9bo$8bobo$8bobo$7b2ob3o$13bo$7b2ob3o$o6b2obo$b2o$2o2b3o$6bo$5bo! [[ T 6 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 7 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 8 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 9 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 10 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 11 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 12 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 13 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 14 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 15 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 16 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 17 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 18 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 19 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 20 PAUSE 0.2 ]]Code: Select all
x = 15, y = 18, rule = B3/S23 4bo$3bobo$3bobo$b3ob2o$o$b3ob2o$3bob2o$13bo$12bobo$11bo2bo$11bobo$11b 2o5$11b2o$11b2o! [[ T 23 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 24 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 25 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 26 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 27 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 28 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 29 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 30 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 31 PAUSE 0.2 ]] [[ T 32 PAUSE 0.2 ]]
MathAndCode wrote: ↑November 4th, 2020, 10:56 pmThe eater 2 is overclocked to repeat time 4.Code: Select all
x = 14, y = 9, rule = B3/S23 4bo$3bobo$3bobo$b3ob2o$o$b3ob2o4b2o$3bob2o3bo2bo$9bo2bo$9b3o!
I am tentatively considering myself back.
- Entity Valkyrie 2
- Posts: 1837
- Joined: February 26th, 2019, 7:13 pm
- Contact:
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Catalysts to use where the fishhook fails:
Code: Select all
x = 975, y = 63, rule = EV2QuadColor
99.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.
3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.3F.3F61.3F.
3F.3F$27.3F.3F.3F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F
3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F
61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.F3.F.F$27.F3.F3.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.
2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.
F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F61.F3.2F2.F.F
61.F3.2F2.F.F$27.F3.2F2.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.
F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.
F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F61.F.F.F3.F.F$27.F.F.F3.
F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.
3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F61.
3F.3F.F.F61.3F.3F.F.F$27.3F.3F.F.F$103.3F69.3F69.3F69.3F69.3F69.3F69.
F.F69.3F69.3F69.3F69.F.F69.F.F69.F.F$31.3F71.F71.F71.F69.F73.F71.F69.
F.F71.F69.F73.F69.F.F69.F.F69.F.F$33.F69.3F69.3F71.F69.3F69.3F69.3F
69.3F69.3F69.3F69.3F69.3F69.3F69.3F$31.3F69.F71.F73.F71.F71.F71.F71.F
69.F73.F69.F73.F71.F71.F$31.F71.3F69.3F71.F69.3F69.3F69.3F71.F69.3F
69.3F69.3F71.F71.F71.F$31.3F2$864.2D$D504.D.D26.A112.D73.D142.3D$.3D
70.D70.D68.D5.D67.D146.D71.D25.A2.A41.D69.D70.D.D71.2D70.D.2D$3.D16.H
54.D16.H51.D.D17.H48.2D2.4D15.H51.3D17.H71.H54.D16.H10.A40.D2.D16.H9.
3A41.D17.H51.D19.H51.D.D17.H54.D16.H51.2D.2D15.H49.D21.H$3.D16.2H10.A
42.D16.2H50.D.2D16.2H47.D2.D2.D16.2H50.4D16.2H53.D16.2H51.D.D16.2H8.
2A42.2D16.2H9.A43.D16.2H51.D.D16.2H9.A42.2D16.2H53.D16.2H48.D4.D16.2H
9.A38.D3.2D16.2H8.A$3.D12.7H50.3D12.7H6.A45.D12.7H50.3D12.7H48.2D2.D
12.7H9.A37.2D3.D12.7H51.2D12.7H51.2D12.7H51.2D12.7H50.3D12.7H7.A42.D.
D12.7H7.A42.D.D12.7H49.D2.D12.7H48.D3.D12.7H8.A$5.2E9.8H7.AFE43.2E9.
8H5.A2.FE40.D2.2E9.8H6.A.FE43.2E9.8H8.2E39.2D2.2E9.8H8.2E38.3D2.2E9.
8H8.FE43.2E9.8H8.2E43.2E9.8H8.2E39.2D2.2E9.8H8.2E43.2E9.8H6.A.FE43.2E
9.8H6.A.FE43.2E9.8H8.FE38.3D2.2E9.8H8.2E38.3D2.2E9.8H8.2E$5.E.E8.7H8.
AE.E42.E.E8.7H8.AE.E42.E.E8.7H8.AE.E42.E.E8.7H9.E.E42.E.E8.7H9.E.E42.
E.E8.7H9.E.E42.E.E8.7H9.E.E42.E.E8.7H9.E.E42.E.E8.7H9.E.E42.E.E8.7H8.
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.E$7.E12.2H12.E44.E12.2H12.E44.E12.2H12.E44.E12.2H10.A.E44.E12.2H12.E
44.E12.2H12.E44.E12.2H12.E44.E12.2H12.E38.D5.E12.2H12.E44.E12.2H12.E
44.E12.2H12.E44.E12.2H9.A2.E34.2D8.E12.2H12.E44.E12.2H12.E$7.2E11.H
13.2E43.2E11.H13.2E43.2E11.H13.2E43.2E11.H13.2E43.2E11.H13.2E43.2E11.
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11.H13.2E43.2E11.H13.2E34.D8.2E11.H13.2E43.2E11.H13.2E9$367.2E25.2E
468.2D$D366.E.E24.E.E108.D.D139.D73.D142.3D$.3D70.D70.D68.D5.D67.D80.
E26.E38.D71.D70.D69.D70.D.D71.2D4.2E25.2E37.D.2D$3.D16.J54.D16.J51.D.
D17.J48.2D2.4D15.J51.3D17.J59.2E.2E7.J14.2E.2E35.D16.H10.A40.D2.D16.J
53.D17.H51.D19.H51.D.D17.H54.D4.E11.J14.E36.2D.2D65.D21.H$3.D16.2J10.
A42.D16.2J50.D.2D16.2J47.D2.D2.D16.2J50.4D16.2J53.D5.E.E8.2J14.E.E34.
D.D16.2H8.2A42.2D3.E12.2J12.E40.D16.2H51.D.D16.2H52.2D16.2H53.D4.E.2E
8.2J13.E.2E31.D4.D27.A38.D3.2D16.2H8.A$3.D12.7J50.3D3.2E7.7J6.A4.2E
39.D12.7J50.3D12.7J48.2D2.D12.7J9.A37.2D3.D2.3E2.E4.7J10.F2E2.E35.2D
12.7H51.2D2.E.E7.7J10.E.E38.2D3.2E7.7H9.A.2E37.3D3.2E7.7H11.2E37.D.D
12.7H7.A42.D.D2.3E2.E4.7J10.EFE2.E33.D2.D4.2E25.2E34.D3.D12.7H8.A$5.
2E9.8J7.AFE43.E2.E7.8J5.A2.F2.E38.D2.2E.E7.8J6.A.FE.E41.2E9.8J8.FE39.
2D2.2E9.8J8.FE38.3D2.E3.2E5.8J8.F3.2E39.2E.E7.8H8.EF.E41.E2.E7.8J8.F.
AE37.2D2.E2.E7.8H8.F2.E41.E2.E7.8H7.AF2.E41.2E.E7.8H6.A.FE.E41.E3.2E
5.8J8.F3.2E34.3D2.2E2.E22.2E2.E35.3D2.2E.E7.8H8.2F.E$5.E2.E7.7J8.AF2.
E41.3E8.7J8.4E42.2E.3E5.7J8.AFE.3E39.E.E.2E5.7J9.E.E.2E39.E.E.2E5.7J
9.F.E.2E39.4E7.7J9.4E41.2E.3E5.7H9.EF.3E39.2E.E.2E4.7J9.2E.E.2E38.3E
8.7H9.3E42.3E8.7H7.2AF2E42.2E.3E5.7H8.AFE.3E39.4E7.7J9.F3E41.E.2E23.F
.2E41.2E.3E5.7H7.A.2EA3E$6.2E.E10.2J11.2E.E55.2J61.E8.2J16.E40.E.E10.
2J9.2A.E.E42.E.E10.2J9.2A.E.E43.E11.2J9.A3.E47.E8.2H11.A4.E39.E.E2.E
8.2J11.E.E2.E34.D18.2H70.2H9.A51.E8.2H16.E41.E11.2J13.E33.2D8.E22.A.A
.E48.E8.2H9.A.A4.E$9.E10.J15.E40.2E.E.2E8.J11.2E.E.2E38.2E.3E9.J11.2E
.3E40.2E2.E9.J11.AFE2.E40.2E2.E9.J12.2E2.E39.2E.E.E9.J11.2E.E.E39.2E.
3E9.H11.2E.3E38.E.E.2E10.J10.E.E.2E40.2E.E.2E8.H11.2E.E.2E38.2E.E.2E
8.H11.2E.E.2E38.2E.3E9.H11.2E.3E39.2E.E.E9.J11.2E.E.E32.D6.E.E24.F.E
42.2E.3E9.H11.2E.3E$9.2E25.2E40.E.2E.E21.E.2E.E39.E.E24.E.E44.2E22.A
2.2E43.2E25.2E41.E2.2E22.E2.2E40.E.E24.E.E40.2E25.2E45.E.2E.E21.E.2E.
E39.E.2E.E21.E.2E.E39.E.E24.E.E42.E2.2E22.E2.2E39.2E25.2E44.E.E24.E.E
$78.E26.E44.E.E24.E.E42.2E25.2E43.2E25.2E41.E.E24.E.E44.E.E24.E.E114.
E26.E44.E26.E44.E.E24.E.E40.E.E24.E.E116.E.E24.E.E$77.2E25.2E45.E26.E
44.E26.E44.E26.E41.2E25.2E46.E26.E114.2E25.2E43.2E25.2E45.E26.E41.2E
25.2E118.E26.E$223.E.E24.E.E42.E.E24.E.E$224.2E25.2E43.2E25.2E5$D646.
D73.D$.3D431.D142.D4.2E25.2E36.D70.D.D$3.D16.J359.J54.D5.E10.J15.E
109.D5.E11.J14.E36.D19.J51.D.D17.J193.D21.J$3.D16.2J341.D16.2J51.D.D
3.3E10.2J12.3E110.D4.E.2E8.2J13.E.2E34.D.D16.2J52.2D16.2J192.D3.2D16.
2J8.A$3.D2.2E8.7J10.2E323.2D3.D12.7J51.2D2.E9.7J10.E112.2D2.3E2.E4.7J
10.3E2.E34.3D3.2E7.7J11.2E37.D.D2.2E8.7J7.A2.2E180.D3.D12.7J8.A$5.E.E
8.8J7.AF.E325.3D2.2E9.8J8.FE43.E.E8.8J8.E.E110.2D2.E3.2E5.8J8.F3.2E
39.E2.E7.8J8.E2.E41.E.E8.8J6.A.F.E181.3D2.2E.E7.8J8.2F.E$5.E10.7J9.E
332.E.E8.7J9.E.E42.E.E8.7J9.E.E114.4E7.7J9.4E41.3E8.7J9.3E42.2E9.7J8.
A2E187.2E.3E5.7J9.2EA3E$3.E.E14.2J8.E.E334.E12.2J10.A.E39.E3.E13.2J7.
E3.E111.D6.E11.2J13.E38.E17.2J7.E51.2E9.2J14.2E189.E8.2J11.A4.E$.3E.E
.E12.J7.3E.E.E331.2E.2E.E7.J12.2E.2E.E34.4E14.J8.4E116.2E.E.E9.J11.2E
.E.E36.4E14.J8.4E41.2E5.E.E8.J8.2E5.E.E180.4E.3E9.J9.4E.3E$E5.2E19.E
5.2E327.2E2.E2.E.2E16.2E2.E2.E.2E182.E2.2E22.E2.2E39.E26.E42.E7.E18.E
7.E180.E3.2E21.E3.2E$2E25.2E332.E.E3.2E19.E.E3.2E38.2E25.2E117.E.E24.
E.E42.E26.E40.3E8.2E14.3E8.2E180.2E25.2E$361.E26.E45.2E25.2E117.2E25.
2E43.2E25.2E39.E26.E194.2E.E23.2E.E$360.2E25.2E553.E.2E23.E.2E!
Last edited by Entity Valkyrie 2 on November 7th, 2020, 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MathAndCode
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Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Wow. I haven't even seen half of those replacement catalysts before (which demonstrates that someone with more experience than me should have made this guide, but no one likes a new user who won't pull his/her own weight, so I didn't ask anyone). Examples two and three are already included, but the rest aren't, so I'll add them.
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- Entity Valkyrie 2
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Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
I am not very experienced with catalysts, not to mention that I don't know how to run any search programs, and thus I do everything by hand. I always start from Thessalonic hand search (Thessalonic is a word that means blocks and eater 1s).
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wwei23
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
But there's way too much stuff for one to possibly know all of it that quickly. It's fine to ask around.MathAndCode wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 8:10 pmno one likes a new user who won't pull his/her own weight, so I didn't ask anyone
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MathAndCode
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Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Yes, but it is hard for me to shake the emotional impact of some post by dvgrn (and I'm sure other users as well).
I am tentatively considering myself back.
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Those of us who use search programs extensively might actually be less suitable to making catalyst guides, because the program is doing all of the how-does-it-work thinking. But here are some more substitutions I've observed--places where it looks like one catalyst should work, but where you really need another:
The third one is likely not that important. Spotting those reactions in which tubs 'open' and then 'close' are more of an art than a science, currently.
There are also some limits to the catalyst search programs. We are well past the point where CatForce can handle the load of all known catalysts, even if you remove the ones that can do one specific thing to one specific mess and will obviously never work anywhere else.
Code: Select all
x = 30, y = 58, rule = LifeHistory
2.A.A17.A.A$3.A19.A$2A.2A15.2A.2A$.A.A17.A.A$.A.A17.A.A$2.A19.A2$.2C
17.2C.2C$.2C18.C.C$19.C.C.C.C$19.2C3.2C13$3.2A19.2A2$3.A20.A$2.A2.A
17.A2.A$2.A.A18.A.A$3.A20.A2$.2C19.2C$C.C18.C2.C.C$2C19.2C.C.3C$24.C
4.C$3.2C13.2C4.C.3C$3.C15.C5.2C$4.3C9.3C$6.C9.C12$3.A.A17.A.A2$3.3A
17.3A2$5.C19.C$4.C.C13.2C2.C.C$5.C13.C.C3.2C$19.C$18.2C!There are also some limits to the catalyst search programs. We are well past the point where CatForce can handle the load of all known catalysts, even if you remove the ones that can do one specific thing to one specific mess and will obviously never work anywhere else.
Tanner Jacobi
Coldlander, a novel, available in paperback and as an ebook. Now on Amazon.
Coldlander, a novel, available in paperback and as an ebook. Now on Amazon.
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MathAndCode
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Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Do you mean that CatForce cannot store all of them or that CatForce cannot try all of them? (I assume the latter, but I want to make sure.)Kazyan wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 9:00 pmThere are also some limits to the catalyst search programs. We are well past the point where CatForce can handle the load of all known catalysts, even if you remove the ones that can do one specific thing to one specific mess and will obviously never work anywhere else.
If the latter, then couldn't CatForce just try the basic catalysts, look up how they fail in a dictionary, then try appropriate replacements?
The human equivalent is the reason why someone should make a troubleshooting guide.
I am tentatively considering myself back.
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wwei23
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Quick question: Can't we just use a beehive-with-tail for the third one?
Code: Select all
x = 48, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory
A.A17.A.A17.A.A2$3A17.3A17.3A$44.C$2.C19.C20.C.C$.C.C13.2C2.C.C19.C.C
$2.C13.C.C3.2C20.C$16.C28.3C$15.2C30.C!
Code: Select all
x = 9, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory
A.A2$3A$4.C$3.C.C$3.C.C$4.C.2C$5.C2.C$6.2C!
Code: Select all
x = 4, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory
.2A2$.A$A2.A$A.A$.A2$2C$2C!
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Looking up how a placed catalyst fails, then trying a library of alternatives, is a good idea for the next evolution of catalyst search programs. It's not really within the scope of what CatForce is equipped to do, though.MathAndCode wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 9:05 pmDo you mean that CatForce cannot store all of them or that CatForce cannot try all of them? (I assume the latter, but I want to make sure.)
If the latter, then couldn't CatForce just try the basic catalysts, look up how they fail in a dictionary, then try appropriate replacements?
The human equivalent is the reason why someone should make a troubleshooting guide.
The former description is more accurate. For every search, you have to list out the catalysts you want CatForce to try, as RLEs. If the list is too long, CatForce starts to ignore the 'forbidden' keyword (which is a thing you can use to tell CatForce to ignore the 11,000 boat-bit reactions whenever there's an escaping glider), and when it's a little longer than that, the program just segfaults and won't run at all.
You definitely can!wwei23 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 9:31 pmQuick question: Can't we just use a beehive-with-tail for the third one?
Code: Select all
x = 48, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory A.A17.A.A17.A.A2$3A17.3A17.3A$44.C$2.C19.C20.C.C$.C.C13.2C2.C.C19.C.C $2.C13.C.C3.2C20.C$16.C28.3C$15.2C30.C!
Tanner Jacobi
Coldlander, a novel, available in paperback and as an ebook. Now on Amazon.
Coldlander, a novel, available in paperback and as an ebook. Now on Amazon.
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MathAndCode
- Posts: 5166
- Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
How did Kazyan miss that?wwei23 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 9:31 pmA plain block works for the second one.
Code: Select all
x = 4, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory .2A2$.A$A2.A$A.A$.A2$2C$2C!
In case this is ever implemented (which I think that it should be), I recommend starting with a block. It's symmetric, and the two most common types of catalyses are the standard block catalysis and using a fishhook, eater 2, or something else as a multi-use block.Kazyan wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 10:28 pmLooking up how a placed catalyst fails, then trying a library of alternatives, is a good idea for the next evolution of catalyst search programs. It's not really within the scope of what CatForce is equipped to do, though.
The former description is more accurate. For every search, you have to list out the catalysts you want CatForce to try, as RLEs. If the list is too long, CatForce starts to ignore the 'forbidden' keyword (which is a thing you can use to tell CatForce to ignore the 11,000 boat-bit reactions whenever there's an escaping glider), and when it's a little longer than that, the program just segfaults and won't run at all.
I am tentatively considering myself back.
- praosylen
- Posts: 2449
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- Contact:
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
These patterns are mostly just for demonstration purposes, showing the general functions of these catalysts and the types of active patterns the catalysts in question can operate on — but anyone who works with any of these catalysts can tell you that if they existed only to eat one ridiculously-specific contrived example pattern like this, you would never see them in conduits or anywhere. If you were to encounter the exact pattern above in a conduit, it would certainly be best to use a block and not have to worry about anything else... but consider examples like these:MathAndCode wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 10:33 pmHow did Kazyan miss that?wwei23 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 9:31 pmA plain block works for the second one.
Code: Select all
x = 4, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory .2A2$.A$A2.A$A.A$.A2$2C$2C!
Code: Select all
x = 35, y = 78, rule = LifeHistory
2$6.A9.A$7.A9.A$4.A.A7.A.A$5.A9.A2$4.2C7.2C$4.2C6.C.C$12.2C2$15.2C$15.
C$16.3C$18.C7$5.3A7.3A$5.A9.A2$4.2C7.2C$4.2C6.C.C$12.2C2$15.2C$15.C$16.
3C$18.C4$7.A9.A13.A$5.2A8.2A12.2A2$4.A.A7.A.A11.A.A$5.A9.A13.A2$4.2C7.
2C12.2C$4.2C6.C.C11.C2.C.C$12.2C12.2C.C.3C$29.C4.C$15.2C6.2C4.C.3C$15.
C8.C5.2C$16.3C2.3C$18.C2.C6$2.3A7.3A11.3A$3.3A7.3A11.3A$5.A9.A13.A2$4.
2C7.2C12.2C$4.2C6.C.C11.C2.C.C$12.2C12.2C.C.3C$29.C4.C$15.2C6.2C4.C.3C
$15.C8.C5.2C$16.3C2.3C$18.C2.C8$14.C2$14.C2$14.C!former username: A for Awesome
praosylen#5847 (Discord)
The only decision I made was made
of flowers, to jump universes to one of springtime in
a land of former winter, where no invisible walls stood,
or could stand for more than a few hours at most...
praosylen#5847 (Discord)
The only decision I made was made
of flowers, to jump universes to one of springtime in
a land of former winter, where no invisible walls stood,
or could stand for more than a few hours at most...
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Heh, well, keep practicing, and hopefully you'll get better at shaking off things like that!MathAndCode wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 8:57 pmYes, but it is hard for me to shake the emotional impact of some post by dvgrn (and I'm sure other users as well).
As far as posts by me specifically, I don't really know much of anything compared to some of the modern catalyst experts. Haven't really gotten serious about finding new stuff, like spending weeks of late nights running catalyst searches, since hunting for the boojum reflector back in 2001. So I definitely haven't learned all the tricks for CatForce or Bellman or CollisionsSearch, and I don't have much experience with a lot of the catalysts listed here.
Probably you should just think of me as a grumpy old conservative in this context. Most of the time you should just keep on investigating whatever interests you, and once you get familiar enough with the subject you'll start finding really new and interesting stuff. At least that's the way it works a lot of the time -- "beginner's luck" seems to be a very strong force in Conway's Life research.
Now, maybe sometimes I'll have some useful perspective about what has been tried and found to work and not work in the past. That's the source, for example, of my recommendation that you always start a search with a previously known and commonly used conduit. We've had to sort through an awful lot of hopeful posts over the years, that amount to "if a pi heptomino" (or whatever) "magically appears in this hopelessly inaccessible location, then here's a conduit to produce X."
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MathAndCode
- Posts: 5166
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Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
In my defense, I thought that connectivity with other conduits was a requirement for being added to the elementary conduit collection. However, it is indeed possible to get a ∏ there using a nonmagical (as you like to describe it when submitting an instance to Catagolue) method.dvgrn wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 11:02 pmNow, maybe sometimes I'll have some useful perspective about what has been tried and found to work and not work in the past. That's the source, for example, of my recommendation that you always start a search with a previously known and commonly used conduit. We've had to sort through an awful lot of hopeful posts over the years, that amount to "if a pi heptomino" (or whatever) "magically appears in this hopelessly inaccessible location, then here's a conduit to produce X."
Code: Select all
x = 34, y = 56, rule = B3/S23
19bo$17b3o$16bo$16b2o2$12bo$11bo$10b2o$11bob3o$15bo$13bobo$14bo4$15bo$14bobo$14bo$14b3obo$18b2o$18bo$17bo2$12b2o$13bo$10b3o$bo8bo$2bo$3o3$12bo$12b3o$15bo$14bo$14b2o4$25b2o$25b2o8$16bo$15bobo$15b2o3$31b2o$31bobo$31bo!
Code: Select all
x = 22, y = 51, rule = B3/S23
14bo$12b3o$11bo$11b2o3$8b2o$7bob2o$7bo4bo$8b2o4bo$9bo3bo3$6b2o4b2o3$6bo3bo$5bo4b2o$7bo4bo$9b2obo$10b2o3$7b2o$8bo$5b3o$5bo5$7bo$7b3o$10bo$9bo$9b2o4$20b2o$9bo10b2o$6bo2bo$6bobo$6b2o2$2b2o$bobo$bo$2o9bo$10bobo$10b2o!I am tentatively considering myself back.
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
I think you're not wrong, it's definitely a requirement ( ECC ==> connectivity )MathAndCode wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 11:47 pmIn my defense, I thought that connectivity with other conduits was a requirement for being added to the elementary conduit collection.
and it's almost a sufficient condition ( ECC = connectivity - few-exceptions )
I'm pretty sure PF*39C is that exception and not sure why it's in there the first place. Is there a conduit that can put the Pi in there?
Nobody's thinking you're doing useless work, though (you have good intuition), it's just that ECC is kind of hard to get your submission through, I guess. Perhaps cause everybody gets to see it as a reference? (Hmm, that sounds like a textbook)
Anyway, I don't think "this-doesn't-fit-to-the-ECC" necessarily means "I-hate-you-and-your-work-is-useless" kind of thing.
(TBH I'm more of a conservative one, and personally would prefer if the ECC doesn't explode with conduits (that I have to check) with limited versatility. Perhaps having a separate "hopeful conduits collection" looks good to me (TM) if anybody's willing to do so.)
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
I think it may be possible by tampering with an XWSS.MathAndCode wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 11:47 pmIn my defense, I thought that connectivity with other conduits was a requirement for being added to the elementary conduit collection. However, it is indeed possible to get a ∏ there using a nonmagical (as you like to describe it when submitting an instance to Catagolue) method.dvgrn wrote: ↑November 7th, 2020, 11:02 pmNow, maybe sometimes I'll have some useful perspective about what has been tried and found to work and not work in the past. That's the source, for example, of my recommendation that you always start a search with a previously known and commonly used conduit. We've had to sort through an awful lot of hopeful posts over the years, that amount to "if a pi heptomino" (or whatever) "magically appears in this hopelessly inaccessible location, then here's a conduit to produce X."Also, this works (although it partially merely passes the buck).Code: Select all
x = 34, y = 56, rule = B3/S23 19bo$17b3o$16bo$16b2o2$12bo$11bo$10b2o$11bob3o$15bo$13bobo$14bo4$15bo$14bobo$14bo$14b3obo$18b2o$18bo$17bo2$12b2o$13bo$10b3o$bo8bo$2bo$3o3$12bo$12b3o$15bo$14bo$14b2o4$25b2o$25b2o8$16bo$15bobo$15b2o3$31b2o$31bobo$31bo!Code: Select all
x = 22, y = 51, rule = B3/S23 14bo$12b3o$11bo$11b2o3$8b2o$7bob2o$7bo4bo$8b2o4bo$9bo3bo3$6b2o4b2o3$6bo3bo$5bo4b2o$7bo4bo$9b2obo$10b2o3$7b2o$8bo$5b3o$5bo5$7bo$7b3o$10bo$9bo$9b2o4$20b2o$9bo10b2o$6bo2bo$6bobo$6b2o2$2b2o$bobo$bo$2o9bo$10bobo$10b2o!
Each day is a hidden opportunity, a frozen waterfall that's waiting to be realised, and one that I'll probably be ignoring
anythingsonata wrote:July 2nd, 2020, 8:33 pmconwaylife signatures are amazing[citation needed]
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MathAndCode
- Posts: 5166
- Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
That's a good idea, but it would probably have to be a LWSS, as even a MWSS's sparks with interact with the hook with tail.
I am tentatively considering myself back.
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
I was thinking some mutated XWSS which would enter from the left and have its head separate and evolve into a pi while the back fades away.MathAndCode wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 2:06 pmThat's a good idea, but it would probably have to be a LWSS, as even a MWSS's sparks with interact with the hook with tail.
Each day is a hidden opportunity, a frozen waterfall that's waiting to be realised, and one that I'll probably be ignoring
anythingsonata wrote:July 2nd, 2020, 8:33 pmconwaylife signatures are amazing[citation needed]
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MathAndCode
- Posts: 5166
- Joined: August 31st, 2020, 5:58 pm
Re: MathAndCode's catalyst troubleshooting guide
Yes, that's certainly possible. A B-heptomino five-generation and six-generation Herschel predecessors somewhat resemble generations one and two of a ∏-heptomino, but simply using a B-heptomino would interfere with the hook with tail.
Edit: This is an encouraging sign, although it needs one more cell of clearance in order to work itself.
Code: Select all
x = 36, y = 20, rule = B3/S23
21bo$21b3o$24bo$12b2o9bo$12b2o9b2o2$2bo$o3bo$5bo28b2o$o4bo28b2o$b5o7$25bo$24bobo$24b2o!I am tentatively considering myself back.