amling questionable searches/ideas firehose

[confocaloid]

And can you find a p3 in B2a3i/S12?

That might be a problem for Logic Life Search which can search low periods in two-state isotropic non-totalistic rules and rulespaces. Which I briefly attempted, but didn't find much. I don't think there is a p3 oscillator smaller than 16x16. Probably others already attempted that as well, if people are trying to prove that rule omniperiodic and p3 is the last period.

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x = 76, y = 16, rule = B2a3i/S12
6bobo2bo2bo19bo4bo4bo21bo3bo3bo$o4bo2bobo2bo16bo4bo4bobo2bo14bo2bobo3b
obo3bo$bobobobo2bo2bo17bo6bo5bo16bobo4bo5bo$3bo3bo4bo2bo17bo3bobobo2b
2o19b2o2bo2bobo$9bo4bo19bo6bo22bo2bo7bo$bob2obo3bobo17bo2bo5bo3b2o18bo
4bo5bo$o2bo2bobo3bob2o15bo6bo3bo23bo2bo2bo$9bo4bo19bobo6bo17bo2bo5bobo
$5bo9bo17bo6bobo2bo16bobo4bo2bobo$2bobo2b2o2bob2o19bo4bobo2bo21b2o7bo$
obo4b2obobo2bo20b2o6bo16bo2b2obo4bobo$bo2b2o25bob3obo4bo19bob2obo4bob
2o$5bo4b2o2bo15bo4bobo4bobo27b3o$2b3o3b4o2b2o19bo6b2o18bo7bo$o4bo2bobo
2bo17b4ob2obo21b4ob2obo5bo$bobo3bobo2bobo15bo2bobo4bo3bo15bobo2bobo2bo
bo!

likely offtopic here (edit: or maybe not)

[amling]

(C)an you find a p3 in B2a3i/S12? It is the last period we need to prove omniperiodicity in that rule. (P3 is low, but soup search found nothing.)

Non-photons in B2a3i/S12 would also be good.

LGOL and LLSSS's notion of CA rule is only as general as what the wiki informs me is called "outer totalistic". Much of the architecture is agnostic to this in that it just relies on tables built by the earliest stages, but even those earliest stages represent a significant amount of complicated and highly-optimized code that would have to be reworked.

Rabble rabble, I sketched isotropic rules for LLSSS (ugh, but not LGOL) and have pushed the very rough first cut of it up to codeberg as branch 20240214-iso-04. It still contains some debugging output and is very much undertested which is quite scary considering how many 8-bit neighborhoods I had to enter by hand.

So far I have verified that S23/B3 c/2 searches look right to start, that the LWSS is found at 2c/4, and that the light sanity checking the code does on its own data does not fail (the entered neighborhoods cover all 256 possibilities when rotated and flipped and none of them are duplicates). At this point I guess I might be in the market for some test cases or entry level problems.

I also did a little light searching in B2a3i/S12 for p3 and verified partials like this one appear to meet CA rules:

Code: Select all

| ...........*...... | ...........*...... | ...........*...... |
| ..........*....... | ..........*....... | ..........*....... |
| .................. | ........*......... | .................. |
| ......*.**..*..... | ......*.....*..... | ......*.....*..... |
| .....*..**.*...... | .....*.....*...... | .....*..**.*...... |
| ..............*... | ........**....*... | .........*....*... |
| ....*......*...*.. | ....*.**.*.....*.. | ....*.....*....*.. |
| ...*..**.*****.... | ...*..**.*...*.... | ...*.....**..*.... |
| .....*............ | ............**.... | ......**.....**... |
| ..****..***....... | ..**.......*...... | ..**..**..**.*.... |
| ......**.**....... | ......**...*...... | ...*......*.*..... |

I'm about to turn in for the night, but I'll leave a few best guess search lines running to 8 GB.

[confocaloid]

branch 20240214-iso-04. It still contains some debugging output and is very much undertested which is quite scary considering how many 8-bit neighborhoods I had to enter by hand.

The outer neighbourhood 1e seems to be missing:

Code: Select all

('1', 'e', 0b010_000_000),

I didn't find any other errors inside make_int_data.

[amling]

branch 20240214-iso-04. It still contains some debugging output and is very much undertested which is quite scary considering how many 8-bit neighborhoods I had to enter by hand.

The outer neighbourhood 1e seems to be missing:

Code: Select all

('1', 'e', 0b010_000_000),

I didn't find any other errors inside make_int_data.

Yes, good! The code's own sanity-checking had already caught missing 1e and I had already added it (although in a different commit) last night.

[amling]

(C)an you find a p3 in B2a3i/S12? It is the last period we need to prove omniperiodicity in that rule. (P3 is low, but soup search found nothing.)

I also did a little light searching in B2a3i/S12 for p3...

I'm about to turn in for the night, but I'll leave a few best guess search lines running to 8 GB.

The arbitrary width search did not complete in 8G. The longest partial of any of the limited searches was this:

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| ...........*...... | ...........*...... | ...........*...... |
| ..........*....... | ..........*....... | ..........*....... |
| .................. | ........*......... | .................. |
| ......*.**..*..... | ......*.....*..... | ......*.....*..... |
| .....*..**.*...... | .....*.....*...... | .....*..**.*...... |
| ..............*... | ........**....*... | .........*....*... |
| ....*......*...*.. | ....*.**.*.....*.. | ....*.....*....*.. |
| ...*..**.*****.... | ...*..**.*...*.... | ...*.....**..*.... |
| .....*............ | ............**.... | ......**.....**... |
| ..****..***....... | ..**.......*...... | ..**..**..**.*.... |
| ......**.**....... | ......**...*...... | ...*......*.*..... |
| ...*.............. |                    |                    |

I vaguely suspect there is nothing here but now this is gonna have to wait in line for real memory.

Non-photons in B2a3i/S12 would also be good.

Last night I ran a silly number of searches for different velocities which all failed instantly. Looking at the rule with fresh eyes this morning, it's obvious why: the B transitions mean that the first time the pattern leaves its initial bounding box it had a run of length at least 2 on the edge and as long as there is a run of length 2 or more on the edge it is guaranteed to propagate itself at c/1 across space forever. B2a plus B3i propagate the run itself and missing B2c means it can't be interrupted from the side no matter what happens.

[confocaloid]

At this point I guess I might be in the market for some test cases or entry level problems.

I posted several low-period oscillators in (Re: Completed searches using any software). A more complete collection of test cases TBD either by future myself or by someone else.

[amling]

Rabble rabble, I sketched isotropic rules for LLSSS (ugh, but not LGOL) and have pushed the very rough first cut of it up to codeberg as branch 20240214-iso-04. It still contains some debugging output and is very much undertested which is quite scary considering how many 8-bit neighborhoods I had to enter by hand.

So far I have verified that S23/B3 c/2 searches look right to start, that the LWSS is found at 2c/4, and that the light sanity checking the code does on its own data does not fail (the entered neighborhoods cover all 256 possibilities when rotated and flipped and none of them are duplicates). At this point I guess I might be in the market for some test cases or entry level problems.

I've fixed LGOL, added hex rules, cleaned up the debugging output, and pushed to codeberg. More details on the amling search principles thread.

[amling]

(C)an you find a p3 in B2a3i/S12? It is the last period we need to prove omniperiodicity in that rule. (P3 is low, but soup search found nothing.)

The arbitrary width search did not complete in 8G.

I vaguely suspect there is nothing here but now this is gonna have to wait in line for real memory.

Partials to 60G for limited widths cut off extremely sharply just one bit later which makes me very suspicious there are no p3 oscillators:

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| ............*....... | ............*....... | ............*....... |
| ...........*....**.. | ...........*....**.. | ...........*....**.. |
| .................... | .........*.......... | .................... |
| .........**..*..**.. | .............*..**.. | .............*..**.. |
| .......*.**.*....... | .......*....*....... | .......*.**.*....... |
| ....*.*........**... | ....*.*..**....**... | ....*.*...*....**... |
| ...*........*....*.. | ...*....*.*......*.. | ...*.......*.....*.. |
| .......**.******.... | ......***.*....*.... | ........*.**..**.... |
| ...**..*.....*...... | ...****........*.... | ...**...*.....*..... |
| ....*..*...*........ | ...........*...**... | ........**.*..*..... |
| ....*.*.*...*..**... | ...**.*.**..*..*.... | ..*.....*...*.**.... |
| ....*...*.......**.. | ...**....**......... |                      |

Sadly, even at 60G the arbitrary width searches dies right before that point. I guess I'll put it in line for my one 120G box, but it's a long line...

[Haycat2009]

(C)an you find a p3 in B2a3i/S12? It is the last period we need to prove omniperiodicity in that rule. (P3 is low, but soup search found nothing.)

Sadly, even at 60G the arbitrary width searches dies right before that point. I guess I'll put it in line for my one 120G box, but it's a long line...

That’s ok. The more important/crucial/hopeful ones can be done first.

[dbell]

Keith, I think you mentioned trying to find an animation reaction using a diagonal c/4 ship on a simple still life. But how complete was your search?

In particular, it would be great if you could find a perturbation of a loaf in the orientation shown here by a spaceship moving to the upper left. The perturbation could be on either side.

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#C A loaf that would be good to animate by a diagonal c/4
#C spaceship moving to the upper left.
x = 4, y = 4
bbo$bobo$obbo$boo!

The loaf in that orientation can be created by just one backward glider, so such a thing would make diagonal c/4 stuff so much easier.

The reaction doesn't have to be complete by itself, the perturbing spaceship only has to survive long enough for another spaceship to perturb the output to save it, like was done for the ship eater.

It also doesn't have to be a minimum diagonal distance reaction, but I guess that would improve the odds that the spaceship escapes from the perturbation.

BCNU,
-dbell

[amling]

Keith, I think you mentioned trying to find an animation reaction using a diagonal c/4 ship on a simple still life. But how complete was your search?

I think I was mostly just saying I can't really search for perturbations in a general sense and so I couldn't think of any way to find an animation reaction. LLSSS isn't really a perturbation finder, it's a spaceship (component) finder and so I have to shove the square peg of trying to find edge repair ships into the round hole of making them look like part of a fixed high period spaceship component (specifically one starting at the back of a line of repeated copies of the input object). The ultimate conclusion was I could think of no way to avoid having to specify completely the output of the perturbation reaction which makes any output other than "nothing" (i.e. object eaten) a mess of unlikely choices.

In particular, it would be great if you could find a perturbation of a loaf in the orientation shown here by a spaceship moving to the upper left.

I'll set up searches for eaters for that loaf (orientation) and maybe we get lucky and (a) they exist and (b) their reaction can be further stoked with existing ships into something useful.

[dbell]

> I'll set up searches for eaters for that loaf (orientation) and maybe we get lucky and (a) they exist and (b) their reaction can be further stoked with existing ships into something useful.

Ok, it would still be useful to have another eater reaction.

But what I was thinking is, don't you have any way to have unspecified cells in a search? Otherwise how do you find incomplete pieces to join together later?

If you 'pretend' to want a complete loaf eater reaction, but have unspecified cells a little ways away from the main reaction, then some of them might become products of the reaction and create what we want.

BCNU,
-dbell

[amling]

> I'll set up searches for eaters for that loaf (orientation) and maybe we get lucky and (a) they exist and (b) their reaction can be further stoked with existing ships into something useful.

Ok, it would still be useful to have another eater reaction.

But what I was thinking is, don't you have any way to have unspecified cells in a search? Otherwise how do you find incomplete pieces to join together later?

If you 'pretend' to want a complete loaf eater reaction, but have unspecified cells a little ways away from the main reaction, then some of them might become products of the reaction and create what we want.

Yes, generally cells are unspecified in the sense that they can be dead or alive, but for LLSSS the entire pattern must meet CA checks globally and there is a fixed velocity that everything wraps around after so if you trace forward in time from where the unspecified reaction cells are, it has to go somewhere eventually. In the case of eaters after some number of generations I let it wrap back around to the zeros I had in the starting generation.

One vague possibility is it could be allowed to fall off the edge of the search window via some weird boundary condition but at a speed as slow as 1/4 this takes quite a few generations (even ignoring the issue of having to guess where to truncate the light cone of wildcards on its front side), it's unclear how to constrain it to fall off without being too big or messy when it does, and any such weird boundary condition (presumably what LLSSS calls an "edge") is going to presumably take a mess of custom code.

I know this probably isn't exactly clear, but it's very, very complicated, both in terms of how LLSSS works in general and how I am tricking it into finding edge repair spaceships. I would urge you to read the giant constraint files I've posted a couple times earlier to try to understand how this was done and what the implicit limitations on LLSSS's model of searches are.

[amling]

...for LLSSS the entire pattern must meet CA checks globally...

...the implicit limitations on LLSSS's model of searches...

I think this assumption, namely that the pattern must meet CA checks globally, is likely the key point here.

But wait! Why does that have to be true? Originally it was just that, an assumption: I was searching for spaceships, I was gonna specify a velocity, and of course spaceship cells must satisfy CA checks. After writing this last post I was thinking that it's very difficult to weaken this assumption because the table precompilation is very sophisticated and in the hot, hot inner loop where it is run it doesn't have easy access to much of any notion of its position in the wider pattern. If we could weaken this assumption in a very strong sense, say by specifying a mask of what parts of the pattern meet CA checks we could just forget the perturbed part of the pattern in the last generation and only require the edge repair ship part to wrap around correctly.

As I thought about the ugly details of how to get the information into the tight inner loop, especially in a way that might not perform atrociously and would not make the common case of global CA checks any slower, I realized we don't really have to weaken the assumption so strongly. Something as simple as ignoring all CA checks from the last generation wrapping back around to the first will do. A combination of PD wildcards and forced on/off cells can implicitly make the CA checks we would care about true. And it's easy enough to ignore CA checks per-generation since we already build separate CA check tables for each position within a tile and, as long as U and W are "spacelike", the generation is determined completely by the position within the tile.

More on this later when I have sketched such a hack, or a constraint file that I would use with it, or both.

EDIT:

Here is a sample constraint file for trying to find a perturbing ship for that loaf with perfect clearance and 5 generations of interaction:

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|                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   | LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   | LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   | LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   | LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   |
|                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |  LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  |  LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  |  LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  |  LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  | ...............................   | ...............................   | ...............................   | ...............................   |
|   LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |   LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |   LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |   LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |  ...............................  |  ...............................  |  ...............................  |  ...............................  | ...............................   | ...............................   | ...............................   | ...............................   |
|   ............................... |   ............................... |   ............................... |   ............................... |  ...............................  |  ...............................  |  ...............................  |  ...............................  | ...............................   | ...............................   | ...............................   | ...............................   |
|   ............................... |   ............................... |   ............................... |   ............................... |  ...............................  |  ...............................  |  ...............................  |  ...............................  | 333............................   | 333............................   | 333............................   | 333............................   |
|   ............................... |   ............................... |   ............................... |   ............................... |  333............................  |  333............................  |  333............................  |  333............................  | 3333...........................   | 3333...........................   | 3333...........................   | 3333...........................   |
|   333............................ |   333............................ |   333............................ |   333............................ |  3333...........................  |  3333...........................  |  3333...........................  |  3333...........................  | 33333..........................   | 33333..........................   | 33333..........................   | 33333..........................   |
|   3333........................... |   3333........................... |   3333........................... |   3333........................... |  33333..........................  |  33333..........................  |  33333..........................  |  33333..........................  | 333333.........................   | 333333.........................   | 333333.........................   | 333333.........................   |
|   33333.......................... |   33333.......................... |   33333.......................... |   33333.......................... |  333333.........................  |  333333.........................  |  333333.........................  |  333333.........................  | 3333333........................   | 3333333........................   | 3333333........................   | 3333333........................   |
|   333333......................... |   333333......................... |   333333......................... |   333333......................... |  3333333........................  |  3333333........................  |  3333333........................  |  3333333........................  | 33333333.......................   | 33333333.......................   | 33333333.......................   | 33333333.......................   |
|   3333333........................ |   3333333........................ |   3333333........................ |   3333333........................ |  33333333.......................  |  33333333.......................  |  33333333.......................  |  33333333.......................  | 333333333......................   | 333333333......................   | 333333333......................   | 333333333......................   |
|   33333333....................... |   33333333....................... |   33333333....................... |   33333333....................... |  333333333......................  |  333333333......................  |  333333333......................  |  333333333......................  | 3333333333.....................   | 3333333333.....................   | 3333333333.....................   | 3333333333........W............   |
|   333333333.......*.............. |   333333333.......*.............. |   333333333.......*.............. |   333333333.......*.............. |  3333333333.......*.............  |  3333333333.......*.............  |  3333333333.......*.............  |  3333333333.......*.............  | 33333333333.......*............   | 33333333333.......*............   | 33333333333......WWW...........   | 33333333333...WWWWWWW..........   |
|   3333333333.....*.*............. |   3333333333.....*.*............. |   3333333333.....*.*............. |   3333333333.....*.*............. |  33333333333.....*.*............  |  33333333333.....*.*............  |  33333333333.....*.*............  |  33333333333.....*.*............  | 333333333333.....*.*...........   | 333333333333....WWWW...........   | 333333333333WWWWWWWWW..........   | 333333333333...WWWWWW..........   |
|   33333333333...*..*............. |   33333333333...*..*............. |   33333333333...*..*............. |   33333333333...*..*............. |  333333333333...*..*............  |  333333333333...*..*............  |  333333333333...*..*............  |  333333333333...*..*............  | 3333333333333...WWWW...........   | 3333333333333WWWWWWWW..........   | 333333333333WWWWWWWWW..........   | 3333333333333....WWWWW.........   |
|   333333333333...**.............. |   333333333333...**.............. |   333333333333...**.............. |   333333333333...**.............. |  3333333333333...**.............  |  3333333333333...**.............  |  3333333333333...**.............  |  3333333333333..WWW.............  | 33333333333333WWWWWW...........   | 3333333333333WWWWWWW...........   | 333333333333WWWWWWWWW..........   | 33333333333333....WWWW.........   |
|   3333333333333.................. |   3333333333333.................. |   3333333333333.................. |   3333333333333.................. |  33333333333333.................  |  33333333333333.................  |  33333333333333.WW..............  |  33333333333333WWWW.............  | 33333333333333WWWWW............   | 3333333333333WWWWWWW...........   | 333333333333WWWWWWWWW..........   | 3333333333333333...WWW.........   |
|   33333333333333................. |   33333333333333................. |   33333333333333................. |   33333333333333................. |  333333333333333................  |  3333333333333333...............  |  3333333333333333...............  |  33333333333333WWW..............  | 33333333333333WWWWW............   | 3333333333333WWWWWWW...........   | 333333333333WWWWWWWWW..........   | 33333333333333333...WW.........   |
|   333333333333333................ |   3333333333333333............... |   3333333333333333............... |   3333333333333333............... |  33333333333333333..............  |  33333333333333333..............  |  33333333333333333..............  |  33333333333333333..............  | 33333333333333WWWWW............   | 3333333333333WWWWWWW...........   | 333333333333WWWWWWWWW..........   | 333333333333333333...W.........   |
|   33333333333333333.............. |   33333333333333333.............. |   33333333333333333.............. |   33333333333333333.............. |  333333333333333333.............  |  333333333333333333.............  |  333333333333333333.............  |  333333333333333333.............  | 3333333333333333333............   | 3333333333333WWWWWWW...........   | 333333333333WWWWWWWWW..........   | 3333333333333333333............   |
|   333333333333333333............. |   333333333333333333............. |   333333333333333333............. |   333333333333333333............. |  3333333333333333333............  |  3333333333333333333............  |  3333333333333333333............  |  3333333333333333333............  | 33333333333333333333...........   | 33333333333333333333...........   | 333333333333WWWWWWWWW..........   | 33333333333333333333...........   |
|   3333333333333333333............ |   3333333333333333333............ |   3333333333333333333............ |   3333333333333333333............ |  33333333333333333333...........  |  33333333333333333333...........  |  33333333333333333333...........  |  33333333333333333333...........  | 333333333333333333333..........   | 333333333333333333333..........   | 333333333333333333333..........   | 333333333333333333333..........   |
|   33333333333333333333........... |   33333333333333333333........... |   33333333333333333333........... |   33333333333333333333........... |  333333333333333333333..........  |  333333333333333333333..........  |  333333333333333333333..........  |  333333333333333333333..........  | 3333333333333333333333.........   | 3333333333333333333333.........   | 3333333333333333333333.........   | 3333333333333333333333.........   |
|   333333333333333333333.......... |   333333333333333333333.......... |   333333333333333333333.......... |   333333333333333333333.......... |  3333333333333333333333.........  |  3333333333333333333333.........  |  3333333333333333333333.........  |  3333333333333333333333.........  | 33333333333333333333333........   | 33333333333333333333333........   | 33333333333333333333333........   | 33333333333333333333333........   |
|   3333333333333333333333......... |   3333333333333333333333......... |   3333333333333333333333......... |   3333333333333333333333......... |  33333333333333333333333........  |  33333333333333333333333........  |  33333333333333333333333........  |  33333333333333333333333........  | 333333333333333333333333.......   | 333333333333333333333333.......   | 333333333333333333333333.......   | 333333333333333333333333.......   |
|   33333333333333333333333........ |   33333333333333333333333........ |   33333333333333333333333........ |   33333333333333333333333........ |  333333333333333333333333.......  |  333333333333333333333333.......  |  333333333333333333333333.......  |  333333333333333333333333.......  | 3333333333333333333333333......   | 3333333333333333333333333......   | 3333333333333333333333333......   | 3333333333333333333333333......   |
|   333333333333333333333333....... |   333333333333333333333333....... |   333333333333333333333333....... |   333333333333333333333333....... |  3333333333333333333333333......  |  3333333333333333333333333......  |  3333333333333333333333333......  |  3333333333333333333333333......  | 33333333333333333333333333.....   | 33333333333333333333333333.....   | 33333333333333333333333333.....   | 33333333333333333333333333.....   |
|   3333333333333333333333333...... |   3333333333333333333333333...... |   3333333333333333333333333...... |   3333333333333333333333333...... |  33333333333333333333333333.....  |  33333333333333333333333333.....  |  33333333333333333333333333.....  |  33333333333333333333333333.....  | 333333333333333333333333333....   | 333333333333333333333333333....   | 333333333333333333333333333....   | 333333333333333333333333333....   |
|   33333333333333333333333333..... |   33333333333333333333333333..... |   33333333333333333333333333..... |   33333333333333333333333333..... |  333333333333333333333333333....  |  333333333333333333333333333....  |  333333333333333333333333333....  |  333333333333333333333333333....  | 3333333333333333333333333333...   | 3333333333333333333333333333...   | 3333333333333333333333333333...   | 3333333333333333333333333333...   |
|   333333333333333333333333333.... |   333333333333333333333333333.... |   333333333333333333333333333.... |   333333333333333333333333333.... |  3333333333333333333333333333...  |  3333333333333333333333333333...  |  3333333333333333333333333333...  |  3333333333333333333333333333...  | 3333333333333333333333333333333   | 3333333333333333333333333333333   | 3333333333333333333333333333333   | 3333333333333333333333333333333   |
|   3333333333333333333333333333... |   3333333333333333333333333333... |   3333333333333333333333333333... |   3333333333333333333333333333... |  3333333333333333333333333333333  |  3333333333333333333333333333333  |  3333333333333333333333333333333  |  3333333333333333333333333333333  |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |
|   3333333333333333333333333333333 |   3333333333333333333333333333333 |   3333333333333333333333333333333 |   3333333333333333333333333333333 |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |                                   |

It is sketched for geometry 3c12d-down. 3c/12d was the smallest multiple of c/4d that I believe will contain all the bits I needed. Here is how it breaks down:

Generations 1-6: A diagonal half-plane shape of 3's marches NW towards a single loaf. The 3's make this essentially a c/4d pattern and 6 is enough generations that the gen 4 to gen 5 (which is forced to look like gen 1) CA checks enforce that they wrap around correctly as c/4d.
Generation 7: The first uncertain cells show up when the 3's brush up against the loaf.
Generations 8-11: The W's expand outwards at approximately the speed of light (I replace any cell I could not guarantee the value of from prior generations with a W).
Generation 12: Here I have forced there to be a separation between the left half of the pattern which must have returned to the half plane of 3's and the right half of the pattern which is still wildcards. There will be no CA check from gen 12 to gen 1 but the 3's force the left part of gen 12 to look like gen 4 and so the CA check from gen 4 to gen 5 will cover the left half of this. The right half of the pattern is forgotten and its future out of scope of the search.

I will have to go write some code before I can actually run this and/or start fiddling with the choice of clearance, interaction generation count, and target object.

EDIT 2:

Oh, this might be cooking something... Here is the longest partial from the above constraint run with 11 mid_steps:

Code: Select all

x = 409, y = 23, rule = LifeHistory
F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F33.F
33.F33.F33.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B
3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B
3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.
F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F
3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F
3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.
29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.
29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.
29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.
29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B
3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B
2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F
2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.15BA
13B.F3.15BA13B.F3.15BA13B.F3.15BA13B.F2.16BA12B2.F2.16BA12B2.F2.16BA
12B2.F2.16BA12B2.F.17BA11B3.F.17BA11B3.F.17BA11B3.F.17BA11B3.F$F3.14B
ABA12B.F3.14BABA12B.F3.14BABA12B.F3.14BABA12B.F2.15BABA11B2.F2.15BABA
11B2.F2.15BABA11B2.F2.15BABA11B2.F.16BABA10B3.F.16BABA10B3.F.16BABA
10B3.F.16BAB2A9B3.F$F3.13BA2BA12B.F3.13BA2BA12B.F3.13BA2BA12B.F3.13BA
2BA12B.F2.14BA2BA11B2.F2.14BA2BA11B2.F2.14BA2BA11B2.F2.14BA2BA11B2.F.
15BA2BA10B3.F.15BA2BA10B3.F.15BA2B2A9B3.F.17B3A9B3.F$F3.14B2A13B.F3.
14B2A13B.F3.14B2A13B.F3.14B2A13B.F2.15B2A12B2.F2.15B2A12B2.F2.15B2A
12B2.F2.15B2A12B2.F.11BA3B3A11B3.F.10B2A2BA3BA10B3.F.10B2A17B3.F.9B3A
17B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.11BA17B2.F2.10B2A17B2.F2.10B2A
17B2.F2.9B3A3BA13B2.F.10B2A3B3A11B3.F.10BABA16B3.F.9B2ABABA14B3.F.9BA
3BA15B3.F$F3.11BA17B.F3.10B2A17B.F3.10B2A17B.F3.9B3A17B.F2.10B2A17B2.
F2.10BABA16B2.F2.9B2ABABA14B2.F2.9BA3BA15B2.F.10BABA3BA12B3.F.10BAB3A
2BA11B3.F.10BA3BA14B3.F.10BA3B2A13B3.F$F3.10B2A17B.F3.10BABA16B.F3.9B
2ABABA14B.F3.9BA3BA15B.F2.10BABA2BA13B2.F2.10BAB4A13B2.F2.10BA3BA14B
2.F2.10BA3B2A13B2.F.11B2AB2A13B3.F.11B2ABA14B3.F.10BABABA14B3.F.9B2AB
A16B3.F$F3.10BABA2BA13B.F3.10BAB4A13B.F3.10BA3BA14B.F3.10BA3B2A13B.F
2.11B2AB2A13B2.F2.11B2A16B2.F2.10BABABA14B2.F2.9B2ABA16B2.F.14B2ABA
11B3.F.10BA6BA11B3.F.10B3A4BA11B3.F.9B2ABA2B2A12B3.F$F3.11B2AB2A13B.F
3.11B2A16B.F3.10BABABA14B.F3.9B2ABA16B.F2.14B2ABA11B2.F2.10BA6BA11B2.
F2.10B6ABA11B2.F2.9B2ABA2B2A12B2.F.10B2ABA2B2A11B3.F.9BA3B5A11B3.F.9B
A3B3ABA11B3.F.12BABA2BA11B3.F$F3.14B2ABA11B.F3.10BA6BA11B.F3.10B6ABA
11B.F3.9B2ABA2B2A12B.F2.10B2ABA2B2A11B2.F2.9BA3B5A11B2.F2.9BA4BA2BA
11B2.F2.12BABA2BA11B2.F.9B4A16B3.F33.F33.F33.F$F3.10B2ABA2B2A11B.F3.
9BA3B5A11B.F3.9BA4BA2BA11B.F3.12BABA2BA11B.F2.9B4A16B2.F2.8BA6B2A12B
2.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F$F3.9B4A16B.F3.8BA6B2A12B.F33.F33.F33.F33.
F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F!

Gen 12 is especially interesting as it shows the left side matching e.g. gen 4 but the right side a separated, still-active region of what loaf has become. TBD how to sort out resulting active regions that we can make something of from those we probably can't...

EDIT 3:

Oooh, or here's a partial with an active region heading the right direction (east) and 4 Y rows of c/4d already:

Code: Select all

x = 409, y = 22, rule = LifeHistory
F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F33.F
33.F33.F33.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B
3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B
3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.
F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F
3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F
3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.
29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.
29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.
29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.
29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B
3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B
2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F
2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F.29B3.F$F3.15BA
13B.F3.15BA13B.F3.15BA13B.F3.15BA13B.F2.16BA12B2.F2.16BA12B2.F2.16BA
12B2.F2.16BA12B2.F.17BA11B3.F.17BA11B3.F.17BA11B3.F.17BA11B3.F$F3.14B
ABA12B.F3.14BABA12B.F3.14BABA12B.F3.14BABA12B.F2.15BABA11B2.F2.15BABA
11B2.F2.15BABA11B2.F2.15BABA11B2.F.16BABA10B3.F.16BABA10B3.F.16BABA
10B3.F.16BABA10B3.F$F3.13BA2BA12B.F3.13BA2BA12B.F3.13BA2BA12B.F3.13BA
2BA12B.F2.14BA2BA11B2.F2.14BA2BA11B2.F2.14BA2BA11B2.F2.14BA2BA11B2.F.
15BA2BA10B3.F.15BA2BA10B3.F.15BA2BA10B3.F.18B2A9B3.F$F3.14B2A13B.F3.
14B2A13B.F3.14B2A13B.F3.14B2A13B.F2.15B2A12B2.F2.15B2A12B2.F2.15B2A
12B2.F2.15B2A12B2.F.16B2A11B3.F.15B3A11B3.F.18BA10B3.F.12BA4B2A10B3.F
$F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F3.29B.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.29B2.F2.12BA16B2.F.
16BA12B3.F.12B2AB3A11B3.F.11B3A3BA11B3.F.11BA2BA14B3.F$F3.29B.F3.29B.
F3.29B.F3.12BA16B.F2.29B2.F2.12B2A15B2.F2.11B3A15B2.F2.11BA2BA14B2.F.
11B4A14B3.F.10B2A2BA14B3.F.11B4A14B3.F.8BAB2A2BA14B3.F$F3.29B.F3.12B
2A15B.F3.11B3A15B.F3.11BA2BA14B.F2.11B4A14B2.F2.10B2A2BA14B2.F2.11B4A
14B2.F2.8BAB2A2BA14B2.F.9B2AB2A15B3.F.8BA6BA13B3.F.7B3A19B3.F.7BABABA
17B3.F$F3.11B4A14B.F3.10B2A2BA14B.F3.11B4A14B.F3.8BAB2A2BA14B.F2.9B2A
B2A15B2.F2.8BA6BA13B2.F2.7B3A19B2.F2.7BABABA17B2.F.8B3AB4A13B3.F.7B2A
20B3.F.7B2A3BA16B3.F.6BA6B2A14B3.F$F3.9B2AB2A15B.F3.8BA6BA13B.F3.7B3A
19B.F3.7BABABA17B.F2.8B3AB4A13B2.F2.7B2A20B2.F2.7B2A3BA16B2.F2.6BA6B
2A14B2.F.6B2A2BA2BA15B3.F.11B3A15B3.F.7BA2BA2B3A13B3.F.5B2AB2ABA17B3.
F$F3.8B3AB4A13B.F3.7B2A20B.F3.7B2A3BA16B.F3.6BA6B2A14B.F2.6B2A2BA2BA
15B2.F2.11B3A15B2.F2.7BA2BA2B3A13B2.F2.5B2AB2ABA17B2.F33.F33.F33.F33.
F$F3.6B2A2BA2BA15B.F3.11B3A15B.F3.7BA2BA2B3A13B.F3.5B2AB2ABA17B.F33.F
33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F!

[dbell]

Those couple of loaf perturbations are a nice proof of the concept. I'm impressed that you got the new feature for finding them working so quickly.

I think I can perturb those reactions slightly with sparking spaceships. The loaf can probably be converted into another loaf, a beehive, a boat, or a traffic lights, but that's all I found.

If a slightly larger output is created then maybe that would be good enough to make a clean glider.

BCNU,
-dbell

[Sokwe]

I think this assumption, namely that the pattern must meet CA checks globally, is likely the key point here.

But wait! Why does that have to be true? Originally it was just that, an assumption: I was searching for spaceships, I was gonna specify a velocity, and of course spaceship cells must satisfy CA checks. After writing this last post I was thinking that it's very difficult to weaken this assumption because the table precompilation is very sophisticated and in the hot, hot inner loop where it is run it doesn't have easy access to much of any notion of its position in the wider pattern. If we could weaken this assumption in a very strong sense, say by specifying a mask of what parts of the pattern meet CA checks we could just forget the perturbed part of the pattern in the last generation and only require the edge repair ship part to wrap around correctly.

As I thought about the ugly details of how to get the information into the tight inner loop, especially in a way that might not perform atrociously and would not make the common case of global CA checks any slower, I realized we don't really have to weaken the assumption so strongly. Something as simple as ignoring all CA checks from the last generation wrapping back around to the first will do. A combination of PD wildcards and forced on/off cells can implicitly make the CA checks we would care about true. And it's easy enough to ignore CA checks per-generation since we already build separate CA check tables for each position within a tile and, as long as U and W are "spacelike", the generation is determined completely by the position within the tile.

Would any of this allow a modification of the 5c/15 rake search? Building off of your constraint file posted here, if I have replaced some of the cells at the left and right edges with 'X'.

Code: Select all

|     LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |     LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |     LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |    LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  |    LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  |    LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  |   LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   |   LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   |   LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   |  LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR    |  LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR    |  LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR    | LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR     | LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR     | LLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR     |
|     XXX.**..**................*......... |     XXX*.**...................**........ |     XXX....*..................**........ |    XXX.**..**.................***......  |    XXX*.**.....................**......  |    XXX....*...................*.*......  |   XXX.**..**....................**....   |   XXX*.**........................*....   |   XXX....*.....................*.*....   |  XXX.**..**......................*...    |  XXX*.**........**..............*....    |  XXX....*.......**...............*...    | XXX.**..**..........................     | XXX*.**.............................     | XXX....*............................     |
|     XXX....***................**........ |     XXX..**..................*.*........ |     XXX....*....*..............**....... |    XXX....***...................*......  |    XXX..**...*................*.*......  |    XXX....*.....................*......  |   XXX....***...................*......   |   XXX..**...*...................*.....   |   XXX....*......*.....................   |  XXX....***....***...................    |  XXX..**...*....*....................    |  XXX....*...............*............    | XXX....***.....*........**..........     | XXX..**...*....*........**..........     | XXX....*........*.......***.........     |
|     XXX...*.**.**............*.*........ |     XXX..**....***.............*........ |     XXX.*..*....*.............*......... |    XXX...*.**...**.............*.......  |    XXX..**...*..**.....................  |    XXX.*..*..*..**.....................  |   XXX...*.**....**....................   |   XXX..**...*..***.....*..............   |   XXX.*..*..*..***.....**.............   |  XXX...*.**............**............    |  XXX..**...*..****.....***...........    |  XXX.*..*..*.**.**......**...........    | XXX...*.**..WWWWWWW....*.*..........     | XXX..**...*.WWWWWWWW.....**.........     | XXX.*..*..WWWWWWWWWWW.....*.........     |
|     XXX.**...*..**...................... |     XXX.*.*..*.......................... |     XXX.*.**..*.*....................... |    XXX.**...*...**....*................  |    XXX.*.*..**.*..*...**...............  |    XXX.*.**....*..*...**...............  |   XXX.**...*..**..*...***.............   |   XXX.*.*..**.*...*....**.............   |   XXX.*.**....*.*.*...*.*.............   |  XXX.**...*..**...*.....**...........    |  XXX.*.*..**.**..........*...........    |  XXX.*.**....W..WWW....*.*...........    | XXX.**...*..WWWWWWWW.....*..........     | XXX.*.*..**WWWWWWWWWW...*...........     | XXX.*.**...WWWWWWWWWWW...*..........     |
|     XXX.**...*..**...**................. |     XXX.*.*..*.......**................. |     XXX.*.**..*.*....***................ |    XXX.**...*...**....**...............  |    XXX.*.*..**.*..*..*.*...............  |    XXX.*.**....*..*....**..............  |   XXX.**...*..**..*.....*.............   |   XXX.*.*..**.*...*...*.*.............   |   XXX.*.**....*.*.*.....*.............   |  XXX.**...*..**...*....*.............    |  XXX.*.*..**.*WWWWWW....*............    |  XXX.*.**....WWWWWWW.................    | XXX.**...*..WWWWWWWWW...............     | XXX.*.*..**WWWWWWWWWWW..............     | XXX.*.**...WWWWWWWWWWWW.............     |
|     XXX...*.**.**...*.*................. |     XXX..**....***....**................ |     XXX.*..*....*......*................ |    XXX...*.**...**...*.*...............  |    XXX..**...*..**.....*...............  |    XXX.*..*..*..**....*................  |   XXX...*.**....**.....*..............   |   XXX..**...*..***....................   |   XXX.*..*..*..***....................   |  XXX...*.**....WWWW..................    |  XXX..**...*..WWWWWW.................    |  XXX.*..*..*.WWWWWWWW................    | XXX...*.**..WWWWWWWWWW..............     | XXX..**...*WWWWWWWWWWWW.............     | XXX.*..*..WWWWWWWWWWWWWW............     |
|     XXX....***........*................. |     XXX..**..........*.................. |     XXX....*....*.....*................. |    XXX....***..........................  |    XXX..**...*.........................  |    XXX....*............................  |   XXX....***..........................   |   XXX..**...*.........................   |   XXX....*......WWW...................   |  XXX....***....WWWWW.................    |  XXX..**...*..WWWWWWW................    |  XXX....*....WWWWWWWWW...............    | XXX....***..WWWWWWWWWWW.............     | XXX..**...*WWWWWWWWWWWWW............     | XXX....*..WWWWWWWWWWWWWW............     |
|     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |  XXX55555555555WWWWW5555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX5555555555WWWWWWW555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX555555555WWWWWWWWW55555555XXXXXXX    | XXX555555555WWWWWWWWWWW555555XXXXXXX     | XXX55555555WWWWWWWWWWWWW55555XXXXXXX     | XXX5555555WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW5555XXXXXXX     |
|     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX5555555555WWWWWWW555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX555555555WWWWWWWWW55555555XXXXXXX    | XXX555555555WWWWWWWWWWW555555XXXXXXX     | XXX55555555WWWWWWWWWWWWW55555XXXXXXX     | XXX5555555WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW5555XXXXXXX     |
|     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX555555555WWWWWWWWW55555555XXXXXXX    | XXX555555555WWWWWWWWWWW555555XXXXXXX     | XXX55555555WWWWWWWWWWWWW55555XXXXXXX     | XXX5555555WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW5555XXXXXXX     |
|     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    | XXX555555555WWWWWWWWWWW555555XXXXXXX     | XXX55555555WWWWWWWWWWWWW55555XXXXXXX     | XXX5555555WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW5555XXXXXXX     |
|     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    | XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX     | XXX55555555WWWWWWWWWWWWW55555XXXXXXX     | XXX5555555WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW5555XXXXXXX     |
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|     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |     XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |    XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX  |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |   XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX   |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    |  XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX    | XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX     | XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX     | XXX55555555555555555555555555XXXXXXX     |

I was concerned in your previous search that too-strong edge conditions might be preventing the discovery of a workable partial result. If these 'X' cells aren't checked for CA consistency, or at least have weakened CA checks then it may allow alternative partial results that could be expanded to a complete solution.

[amling]

(about reducing CA checks)

Would any of this allow a modification of the 5c/15 rake search? Building off of your constraint file posted here, if I have replaced some of the cells at the left and right edges with 'X'.

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|     XXX.**...*..**...**................. |     XXX.*.*..*.......**................. |     XXX.*.**..*.*....***................ |    XXX.**...*...**....**...............  |    XXX.*.*..**.*..*..*.*...............  |    XXX.*.**....*..*....**..............  |   XXX.**...*..**..*.....*.............   |   XXX.*.*..**.*...*...*.*.............   |   XXX.*.**....*.*.*.....*.............   |  XXX.**...*..**...*....*.............    |  XXX.*.*..**.*WWWWWW....*............    |  XXX.*.**....WWWWWWW.................    | XXX.**...*..WWWWWWWWW...............     | XXX.*.*..**WWWWWWWWWWW..............     | XXX.*.**...WWWWWWWWWWWW.............     |
|     XXX...*.**.**...*.*................. |     XXX..**....***....**................ |     XXX.*..*....*......*................ |    XXX...*.**...**...*.*...............  |    XXX..**...*..**.....*...............  |    XXX.*..*..*..**....*................  |   XXX...*.**....**.....*..............   |   XXX..**...*..***....................   |   XXX.*..*..*..***....................   |  XXX...*.**....WWWW..................    |  XXX..**...*..WWWWWW.................    |  XXX.*..*..*.WWWWWWWW................    | XXX...*.**..WWWWWWWWWW..............     | XXX..**...*WWWWWWWWWWWW.............     | XXX.*..*..WWWWWWWWWWWWWW............     |
|     XXX....***........*................. |     XXX..**..........*.................. |     XXX....*....*.....*................. |    XXX....***..........................  |    XXX..**...*.........................  |    XXX....*............................  |   XXX....***..........................   |   XXX..**...*.........................   |   XXX....*......WWW...................   |  XXX....***....WWWWW.................    |  XXX..**...*..WWWWWWW................    |  XXX....*....WWWWWWWWW...............    | XXX....***..WWWWWWWWWWW.............     | XXX..**...*WWWWWWWWWWWWW............     | XXX....*..WWWWWWWWWWWWWW............     |
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I was concerned in your previous search that too-strong edge conditions might be preventing the discovery of a workable partial result. If these 'X' cells aren't checked for CA consistency, or at least have weakened CA checks then it may allow alternative partial results that could be expanded to a complete solution.

I'm not really sure reduced CA checks is what you want there, you just want to have some c/3 boundary. You can sort of already do that with 5's and `LlsssEdgeAny`. The cells would still have to be c/3 and any CA checks that are still visible on the board will have to be met, but nothing about stuff off the left edge would be checked. I have never gotten a search of this form (using "any") to not blow up memory with too many possibilities and so I haven't bothered to add it to `convert_edge` (and what is thus available without editing code).

If I were doing this sort of thing I would probably put two L columns of all zeros for the edge, and then like a hundered L columns of all 5's, demanding some sort of complete c/3 front but being rather nonspecific about its contents. This would probably require some form of `--left-closure pd:5:XX` or the like as well.

Either way I think the 5c/15 searches already done were pretty loosey goosey on the left edge and had considerable freedom to improvise c/3 bits there. In my estimation the bigger benefit from the reduced CA checks is being able to have ignored outputs of the reaction which isn't as useful here since we actually know what we're expecting/hoping for from the reaction (namely that glider in that known spot).

As an example of what I mean, here is a constraint file I'm playing with right now to try to find a perturbation of the 17c/34 puffer smoke:

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|    LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |    LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR |   LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  |   LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR  |  LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   |  LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR   | LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR    | LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuRRR    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.**........**......... |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.*..........**......... |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.*...........*........  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.*..*.........*........  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.*.*..........*.......   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.*..*.........***......   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.**.**...........*....    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.*....*..........*.....    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.**.*.....*..*........ |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..**.*........*........ |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.**.**......*.*.......  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..**.........*.*.......  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.***........**.**.....   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..*.*.......******.....   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.*.*.....*.**....*....    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..*.*.*...*.**....**...    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444....***.....**........ |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*....***..*..**........ |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444...*****...*..*.......  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*......**..**..**......  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.......**.**....*.....   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*.......***.***...*....   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444....*...*.**......*...    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*....*...*.......WW....    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444***....*.***.......... |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444***.....*..***......... |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444***.....*.**.**.......  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444****..*..*.**.**.......  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444****...**.....***.....   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*****...**...***.*.....   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*****...*.**...WW.....    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*******....*WWWWWWW....    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444......*............... |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444...*...*...*........... |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444...*...*...*..........  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444....*......***.........  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444....*.....**.**.......   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.....*......*WWW.......   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.....*......WWWWW.....    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444......*................    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444**...*................ |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444***...*................ |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444***...................  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444****...................  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444****........*WW.......   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*****.......**WWW......   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444***..*......WWWWWW....    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444***..**................    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..*.*........444444444 |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..............444444444 |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.............444444444  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..............444444444  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..*..........444444444   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444...**........WWWW444444   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444....*.......WWWWWW4444    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..............444444444    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*............444444444 |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*.............444444444 |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*............444444444  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*.............444444444  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*............444444444   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*.............444444444   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*...........WWWWWW4444    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444*.............444444444    |
|    44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.............444444444 |    4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..............444444444 |   44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.............444444444  |   4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..............444444444  |  44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.............444444444   |  4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..............444444444   | 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444.............444444444    | 4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444..............444444444    |
|    444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444 |    444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444 |   444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444  |   444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444  |  444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444   |  444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444   | 444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444    | 444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444    |
|    444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444 |    444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444 |   444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444  |   444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444  |  444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444   |  444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444   | 444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444    | 444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444    |

I am using the `--unwrap-v` hacks, but that's only relevant for the right side. The left side is a wall of 4's which lets it pick whatever c/2 it want to fill in there.

Here is a random partial from a search with this. It didn't get very far, but it demonstrates it being able to fill in quite a bit of c/2 stuff on the left:

Code: Select all

x = 305, y = 8, rule = LifeHistory
F4.2BAB2A2BA3B2A8B2A8B.F4.2BA3B3A2BA10B2A8B.F3.2BAB2A2BA3BA11BA7B2.F
3.2BA3B3A2BA2BA9BA7B2.F2.2BAB2A2BA3BABA10BA6B3.F2.2BA3B3A2BA2BA9B3A5B
3.F.2BAB2A2BA3B2AB2A11BA3B4.F.2BA3B3A2BA4BA10BA4B4.F$F4.4B2A4BAB2ABA
5BA2BA7B.F4.3BA5BA2B2ABA8BA7B.F3.4B2A4BAB2AB2A6BABA6B2.F3.3BA5BA2B2A
9BABA6B2.F2.4B2A4BAB3A8B2AB2A4B3.F2.3BA5BA2BABA7B6A4B3.F.4B2A4BABABA
5BAB2A4BA3B4.F.3BA5BA2BABABA3BAB2A4B2A2B4.F$F4.5B2A3BA4B3A5B2A7B.F4.
4B3A2B2A4B3A2BA2B2A7B.F3.5B2A3BA3B5A3BA2BA6B2.F3.4B3A2B2A6B2A2B2A2B2A
5B2.F2.5B2A3BA7B2AB2A4BA4B3.F2.4B3A2B2A7B3AB3A3BA3B3.F.5B2A3BA4BA3BAB
2A6BA2B4.F.4B3A2B2A4BA3BA8BA3B4.F$F4.10B4A4BAB3A9B.F4.10B3A5BA2B3A8B.
F3.10B4A5BAB2AB2A6B2.F3.10B4A2BA2BAB2AB2A6B2.F2.10B5A3B2A5B3A4B3.F2.
10B5A3B2A3B3ABA4B3.F.10B6A3BAB2A4BA4B4.F.10B7A4B2A9B4.F$F4.5B2A10BA
14B.F4.4B3A6BA3BA3BA10B.F3.5B2A7BA3BA3BA9B2.F3.4B3A7BA6B3A8B2.F2.5B2A
8BA5B2AB2A6B3.F2.4B3A8BA6B4A6B3.F.5B2A9BA15B4.F.4B3A9BA15B4.F$F4.4B2A
4B3A3BA15B.F4.4BA5B3A3BA15B.F3.4B2A4B4A18B2.F3.4BA5B4A18B2.F2.4B2A4B
5A8BA8B3.F2.4BA5B5A7B2A2BA5B3.F.4B2A4B4A2BA10BA4B4.F.4BA5B3A2B2A15B4.
F$F4.4BABA2BA3BABA9B2A5B.F4.4BA3B2A15BA6B.F3.4BABA2BA15B2A5B2.F3.4BA
3B2A15BA6B2.F2.4BABA2BA3BA11B2A5B3.F2.4BA3B2A3B2A8BA2BA5B3.F.4BABA2BA
5BA16B4.F.4BA3B2A15BA6B4.F$F4.2B2A4B2ABA13B4A3B.F4.2BA3BA2B2A13B2A6B.
F3.2B2A4B2ABA13B4A3B2.F3.2BA3BA2B2A13B2A6B2.F37.F37.F37.F37.F!

[dbell]

I hope the animation reaction for a loaf works out.

But meanwhile, I wonder if you need any object at all to be perturbed. Maybe the new searching capability can be used to create a frothing diagonal c/4 puffer.

This would be a spaceship with an edge which extrudes objects, much like the existing period 28 puffer. The objects could be created at the back of the spaceship as in a normal puffer, or created at the side of the spaceship like the loaf perturbations are.

Maybe the input file for a search just needs to specify a gap between the main ship and some output cell that you want created with some unspecified cells around it. (I could be wrong, though.)

Finding a working puffer might be unlikely because the low period means that the outputs would interact with each other, but you might get lucky.

BCNU,
-dbell

[amling]

I hope the animation reaction for a loaf works out.

But meanwhile, I wonder if you need any object at all to be perturbed. Maybe the new searching capability can be used to create a frothing diagonal c/4 puffer.

This would be a spaceship with an edge which extrudes objects, much like the existing period 28 puffer. The objects could be created at the back of the spaceship as in a normal puffer, or created at the side of the spaceship like the loaf perturbations are.

Maybe the input file for a search just needs to specify a gap between the main ship and some output cell that you want created with some unspecified cells around it. (I could be wrong, though.)

Finding a working puffer might be unlikely because the low period means that the outputs would interact with each other, but you might get lucky.

In principle, I would think so. You'd definitely need to have some forced-on cell in the output region or it's just gonna find some c/4d ship that extrudes nothing. Unfortunately in practice I suspect that extruding an output region per ship period (rather than an output region per incoming input region) is going to be very unlikely to survive, but I guess some line puffers get away with it.

[amling]

This 10.5 Y row c/2 partial that dropped out of those 3c/6 searches is heart-breaking:

Code: Select all

x = 49, y = 44, rule = B3/S23
b5o3b2o6b3o$obo4bo3bob2o2b3o$4bob3obo7b3o$2bo10b3o$2bobo4b3obobobobo$
6bobob2obo3bo2bo$4bo6bo7bo$7bo5b2o$6b4o2b4o8b2o$6b2ob2o4b2o3bob2o2b2ob
4o3b2o4bo$10bobo2bo3b2o8b4ob2o2b2ob3o$10bobobobo2bobobo2bob2o2bo8b4o$
9bob2obobobobo8bo4bo3bob2o2b2o$12bobobobo10bo5b2o7bo$9b2obobobobo25b2o
$10bobobobobob3o6b2o11bobob2o$9bo2bobobobobo2bo4bo2bo9b2obobobo$9b2obo
bobobobo3bo3bobo9bo3bobobo$10bobobobobobobo2bob2o17bobo$9bo2bobobobob
2o3bobobo10b2ob2o3bo$9b2obobobobobob2obobob2o17bo$10bobobobobobobo2bob
o3bo8b7o$9bo2bobobobobobo15b2obo5bo$9b2obobobobobobob2ob2ob2ob3o2bo8bo
$10bobobobobobobo12b3o2bo3bo$9bo2bobobobobobo2bo3bo3bo3bobo$9b2obobobo
bobobobo4bo5bobo5b2o$10bobobobobobobob2o7bo3b2o3bo$9bo2bobobobobobobo
9bobobo2bo2bo$9b2obobobobobobobob2o3b2obobobobo2bo$10bobobobobobobobob
2o3b2obobobobo$9bo2bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo$9b2obobobobobobobo
3bobo3bobobobob2o$10bobobobobobobobo2bo3bo2bobobobobobo$9bo2bobobobobo
bob2o7b2obobobobob2o$9b2obobobobobobobob2o3b2obobobobobobobo$10bobobob
obobobobobobobobobobobobobobob2o$9bo2bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobob
obobo$9b2obobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo$10bobobobobobobobobob
obobobobobobobobobobo$9bo2bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo$9b2ob
obobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo$10bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo
bobobobobo$9bo2bobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobobo!

I've extended the right side with some random c/2 filler just to show that can certainly be completed with good clearance. The front c/2 branch (whose full version I have is 21 W rows or 10.5 Y rows long) demonstrates how it would connect via a 3c/6 part to the still-life edge, but alas the earliest (south-most) c/2 slice for that front is unsolvable at any width (as strict c/2). I also tried solving this slice as 2c/4 but no luck so far and it's not looking good (haven't gotten any further than the 10.5 Y row). I will of course complete the full PD rotor tree pipeline to 120G for this hit if I can't otherwise solve this one possible version of it.

[Haycat2009]

Can you find a c/3 spacefiller?

[amling]

Can you find a c/3 spacefiller?

Step one on any sort of filler/clearer pattern is going to be finding the edge, which must be compatible with both velocities and compatible with the agar. I think we got exceptionally lucky with the existence of the c/2 x 2c/4 edge used in the "max" family of patterns and I know of no other spreading edge at any pair of vacuum-compatible speeds which is anything even close to approachable in terms of size. Probably the closest would be the 2c/4 x 2c/6 edge discussed up thread, starting here, but it is way beyond me to complete that.

[amling]

The c/4d loaf perturbations finished to 60 GB. Unfortunately it mostly just wants to find the same reaction we already know over and over and I'm not really sure how to reasonably convince it to find something else.

Skimming earlier partials (such a low-tech trick!) there is e.g. this:

Code: Select all

x = 545, y = 23, rule = LifeHistory
F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.
F.28B4.F$F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.
28B3.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F$F33.F33.F33.F33.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F
3.28B2.F3.28B2.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F
.28B4.F$F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F
2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F$F4.28B.F
4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F
2.28B3.F2.28B3.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F$F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.
28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F
.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F$F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F3.28B2.F3.
28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.
28B4.F.28B4.F$F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.
28B2.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F$F
4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F2.28B3.F
2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F$F4.28B.F4.28B.F
4.28B.F4.28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.
F2.28B3.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F.28B4.F$F4.14BA13B.F4.14BA13B.F4.14BA
13B.F4.14BA13B.F3.15BA12B2.F3.15BA12B2.F3.15BA12B2.F3.15BA12B2.F2.16B
A11B3.F2.16BA11B3.F2.16BA11B3.F2.16BA11B3.F.17BA10B4.F.17BA10B4.F.17B
A10B4.F.17BA10B4.F$F4.13BABA12B.F4.13BABA12B.F4.13BABA12B.F4.13BABA
12B.F3.14BABA11B2.F3.14BABA11B2.F3.14BABA11B2.F3.14BABA11B2.F2.15BABA
10B3.F2.15BABA10B3.F2.15BABA10B3.F2.15BABA10B3.F.16BABA9B4.F.16BABA9B
4.F.16BABA9B4.F.16BABA9B4.F$F4.12BA2BA12B.F4.12BA2BA12B.F4.12BA2BA12B
.F4.12BA2BA12B.F3.13BA2BA11B2.F3.13BA2BA11B2.F3.13BA2BA11B2.F3.13BA2B
A11B2.F2.14BA2BA10B3.F2.14BA2BA10B3.F2.14BA2BA10B3.F2.14BA2BA10B3.F.
15BA2BA9B4.F.15BA2BA9B4.F.16BABA9B4.F.16BAB2A8B4.F$F4.13B2A13B.F4.13B
2A13B.F4.13B2A13B.F4.13B2A13B.F3.14B2A12B2.F3.14B2A12B2.F3.14B2A12B2.
F3.14B2A12B2.F2.15B2A11B3.F2.15B2A11B3.F2.15B2A11B3.F2.15B2A11B3.F.
16B2A10B4.F.17BA10B4.F.17B2A9B4.F.17B2A9B4.F$F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.
28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F
.15B2A11B4.F.15BABA10B4.F.14BA13B4.F.9BA3B2A13B4.F$F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.
28B.F4.28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F2.28B3.F2.28B3.F2.13BA14B
3.F2.9BA3B2A13B3.F.9B2ABA2BA12B4.F.9B2AB2ABA12B4.F.8B3AB2ABA12B4.F.8B
7A13B4.F$F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F4.28B.F3.28B2.F3.28B2.F3.13BA14B2.F3.
9BA3B2A13B2.F2.9B2ABA2BA12B3.F2.9B2AB3A13B3.F2.8B3ABAB2A12B3.F2.8B7A
13B3.F.9BAB3ABA12B4.F.8B2A3B2ABA11B4.F.8BA2BA16B4.F.8BA19B4.F$F4.28B.
F4.28B.F4.13BA14B.F4.9BA3B2A13B.F3.9B2ABA2BA12B2.F3.9B2AB3A13B2.F3.8B
3ABAB2A12B2.F3.8B7A13B2.F2.9BAB3ABA12B3.F2.8B2A3B2ABA11B3.F2.8BA2BA
16B3.F2.8BA19B3.F.9BA2BA4BA10B4.F.9BA2BABA13B4.F.9B3A16B4.F.9BA3B5A
10B4.F$F4.9B2ABA2BA12B.F4.9B2AB3A13B.F4.8B3ABAB2A12B.F4.8B7A13B.F3.9B
AB3ABA12B2.F3.8B2A3B2ABA11B2.F3.8BA2BA16B2.F3.8BA19B2.F2.9BA2BA4BA10B
3.F2.9BA2BABA13B3.F2.9B4AB2A12B3.F2.9BA3B5A10B3.F.10BA3BA3BA9B4.F.7BA
3B3ABA12B4.F.7BABAB8A9B4.F.6B3A5B2ABA10B4.F$F4.9BAB3ABA12B.F4.8B2A3B
2ABA11B.F4.8BA2BA16B.F4.8BA19B.F3.9BA2BA4BA10B2.F3.9BA2BABA13B2.F3.9B
4AB2A12B2.F3.9BA3B5A10B2.F2.10BA3BA3BA9B3.F2.7BA2BABA15B3.F2.7BABABAB
A2B3A9B3.F2.6B3A5B2ABA10B3.F33.F33.F33.F33.F$F4.9BA2BA4BA10B.F4.9BA2B
ABA13B.F4.9B4AB2A12B.F4.9BA3B5A10B.F3.10BA3BA3BA9B2.F3.7BA2BABA15B2.F
3.7BABABABA2B3A9B2.F3.6B3A5B2ABA10B2.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.
F$F4.10BA3BA3BA9B.F4.7BA2BABA15B.F4.7BABABABA2B3A9B.F4.6B3A5B2ABA10B.
F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F$F4.6B5AB2A14B.F33.F
33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F33.F!

But it neither cleared 2 Y rows of strict c/4d nor seems very likely for the perturbing ship to survive based on how the active region tends to evolve.

I will put the project in the queue to run to 120 GB but really I need to think of some way to force it to avoid the known reaction or search for a different target object and hope for better luck (but e.g. block is going to have the same problem where I am sure it's gonna find the known deletion over and over).

[dbell]

> But it neither cleared 2 Y rows of strict c/4d nor seems very likely for the perturbing ship to survive based on how the active region tends to evolve.

Yes, it appears that particular one cannot work.

You could try to perturb a beehive, since we can make that from the loaf. There are two orientations to try. Maybe one of those would work.

You could also try a blinker since we can make that too. But like a block, it's probably too simple.

Can you do a search where you force a particular cell on, say adjacent to the known reaction? That way it can't find the same known thing over and over. It could be a pain, though, since you have to pick different cells to try and do a new search for each one. Or you could force one of the cells off instead.

BCNU,
-dbell

[amling]

You could try to perturb a beehive, since we can make that from the loaf. There are two orientations to try. Maybe one of those would work.

You could also try a blinker since we can make that too. But like a block, it's probably too simple.

Had we found a loaf in another orientation ("sideways")? I thought I had dreamed of seeing that done but I can't seem to find it anywhere. I guess that otherwise matches my list of likely next targets.

Maybe I'm thinking of a random partial I spotted like this:

Code: Select all

x = 433, y = 23, rule = LifeHistory
F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F.31B3.F.31B3.F.31B3.F.31B3.F$F35.F
35.F35.F35.F2.31B2.F2.31B2.F2.31B2.F2.31B2.F.31B3.F.31B3.F.31B3.F.31B
3.F$F3.31B.F3.31B.F3.31B.F3.31B.F2.31B2.F2.31B2.F2.31B2.F2.31B2.F.31B
3.F.31B3.F.3BA27B3.F.2B2A27B3.F$F3.31B.F3.31B.F3.31B.F3.31B.F2.31B2.F
2.31B2.F2.3BA27B2.F2.2B2A27B2.F.3B2A26B3.F.2B3A26B3.F.2B2A27B3.F.2BAB
A26B3.F$F3.31B.F3.31B.F3.3BA27B.F3.2B2A27B.F2.3B2A26B2.F2.2B3A26B2.F
2.2B2A27B2.F2.2BABA26B2.F.2B2A27B3.F.2BA28B3.F.2BABA26B3.F.2BA28B3.F$
F3.3B2A26B.F3.2B3A26B.F3.2B2A27B.F3.2BABA26B.F2.2B2A27B2.F2.2BA28B2.F
2.2BABA26B2.F2.2BA28B2.F.4BA26B3.F.3BA27B3.F.31B3.F.31B3.F$F3.2B2A27B
.F3.2BA28B.F3.2BABA26B.F3.2BA28B.F2.4BA26B2.F2.3BA27B2.F2.31B2.F2.31B
2.F.31B3.F.31B3.F.31B3.F.31B3.F$F3.4BA26B.F3.3BA27B.F3.31B.F3.31B.F2.
31B2.F2.31B2.F2.31B2.F2.31B2.F.7BA23B3.F.6B2A23B3.F.6B2A23B3.F.5B3A
23B3.F$F3.31B.F3.31B.F3.31B.F3.31B.F2.7BA23B2.F2.6B2A23B2.F2.6B2A23B
2.F2.5B3A23B2.F.6B2A23B3.F.6BABA22B3.F.5B2A24B3.F.5BA25B3.F$F3.7BA23B
.F3.6B2A23B.F3.6B2A23B.F3.5B3A23B.F2.6B2A23B2.F2.6BABA22B2.F2.5B2A24B
2.F2.5BA25B2.F.6BABA22B3.F.6BA24B3.F.7BA23B3.F.6BA24B3.F$F3.6B2A9BA
13B.F3.6BABA8BA13B.F3.5B2A10BA13B.F3.5BA11BA13B.F2.6BABA9BA12B2.F2.6B
A11BA12B2.F2.7BA10BA12B2.F2.6BA11BA12B2.F.11BA7BA11B3.F.10B2A7BA11B3.
F.10B2A7BA11B3.F.9B3A7BA11B3.F$F3.6BABA7BABA12B.F3.6BA9BABA12B.F3.7BA
8BABA12B.F3.6BA9BABA12B.F2.11BA5BABA11B2.F2.10B2A5BABA11B2.F2.10B2A5B
ABA11B2.F2.9B3A5BABA11B2.F.10B2A6BABA10B3.F.10BABA5BABA10B3.F.9B2A7BA
BA10B3.F.9BA8BAB2A9B3.F$F3.11BA3BA2BA12B.F3.10B2A3BA2BA12B.F3.10B2A3B
A2BA12B.F3.9B3A3BA2BA12B.F2.10B2A4BA2BA11B2.F2.10BABA3BA2BA11B2.F2.9B
2A5BA2BA11B2.F2.9BA6BA2BA11B2.F.10BABA4BA2BA10B3.F.10BA6BA2BA10B3.F.
11BA5BA2B2A9B3.F.10BA8B3A9B3.F$F3.10B2A4B2A13B.F3.10BABA3B2A13B.F3.9B
2A5B2A13B.F3.9BA6B2A13B.F2.10BABA4B2A12B2.F2.10BA6B2A12B2.F2.11BA5B2A
12B2.F2.10BA6B2A12B2.F.17B3A11B3.F.13BA2BA3BA10B3.F.13B2A16B3.F.12B2A
17B3.F$F3.10BABA18B.F3.10BA20B.F3.11BA19B.F3.10BA20B.F2.31B2.F2.13BA
17B2.F2.13B2A16B2.F2.12B2A3BA13B2.F.13B2A2B3A11B3.F.7BA5B2A16B3.F.6B
2A4BA3BA14B3.F.6B2A2BABA2BA15B3.F$F3.31B.F3.13BA17B.F3.13B2A16B.F3.
12B2A17B.F2.13B2A16B2.F2.7BA5B2A16B2.F2.6B2A4BA3BA14B2.F2.6B2A2BABA2B
A15B2.F.6B3A4B2A3BA12B3.F.6B4A2BAB3A2BA11B3.F.6BA2B4A3BA14B3.F.5B2A3B
A5B2A13B3.F$F3.13B2A16B.F3.7BA5B2A16B.F3.6B2A4BA3BA14B.F3.6B2A2BABA2B
A15B.F2.6B3A4B2A2BA13B2.F2.6B4A2BAB4A13B2.F2.6BA2B4A3BA14B2.F2.5B2A3B
A5B2A13B2.F.6BA2B2ABA3B2A13B3.F.6BAB2AB2A2B2A14B3.F.6BA4B3A3BA13B3.F.
7B2A5BA16B3.F$F3.6B3A4B2A2BA13B.F3.6B4A2BAB4A13B.F3.6BA2B4A3BA14B.F3.
5B2A3BA5B2A13B.F2.6BA2B2ABA3B2A13B2.F2.6BAB2AB2A2BA15B2.F2.6BA4B3A3BA
13B2.F2.7B2A5BA16B2.F.12BA3B2ABA11B3.F.9BA5B2A14B3.F.8B2A3B2A16B3.F.
7B5A2BA2B2A12B3.F$F3.6BA2B2ABA3B2A13B.F3.6BAB2AB2A2BA15B.F3.6BA4B3A3B
A13B.F3.7B2A5BA16B.F2.12BA3B2ABA11B2.F2.9BA5B2A14B2.F2.8B2A3B2A16B2.F
2.7B5A2BA2B2A12B2.F.7BA2B5A3BA12B3.F.11B2ABAB3A12B3.F.8BA2BA2BA2B2A
12B3.F.7BA3B2A4B4A10B3.F$F3.12BA3B2ABA11B.F3.9BA5B2A14B.F3.8B2A3B2A
16B.F3.7B5A2BA2B2A12B.F2.7BA2B5A3BA12B2.F2.11B2ABAB3A12B2.F2.8BA2BA2B
A2B2A12B2.F2.7BA3B2A4B4A10B2.F.4BA3BA5B2A5BA9B3.F.8B3A4BA3BABA9B3.F.
5BA2B3ABAB4AB3A9B3.F.2B3A5B2ABABABA2BA10B3.F$F3.7BA2B5A3BA12B.F3.11B
2ABAB3A12B.F3.8BA2BA2BA2B2A12B.F3.7BA3B2A4B4A10B.F2.4BA3BA5B2A5BA9B2.
F2.8B3A4BA3BABA9B2.F2.5BA2B3ABAB4AB3A9B2.F2.2B3A5B2ABABABA2BA10B2.F
35.F35.F35.F35.F$F3.4BA3BA5B2A5BA9B.F3.8B3A4BA3BABA9B.F3.5BA2B3ABAB4A
B3A9B.F3.2B3A5B2ABABABA2BA10B.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F$F3.4B
A4BA2BA2BA3B3A9B.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F35.F!

It's 3.5 Y rows of strict c/4d cells and so might be solvable? Here is the 3-fold pd-fold view:

Code: Select all

| ............................... | ............................... | ............................... | ............................... |
| ............................... | ............................... | ............................... | ............................... |
| ............................... | ............................... | ...*........................... | ..**........................... |
| ...**.......................... | ..***.......................... | ..**........................... | ..*.*.......................... |
| ..**........................... | ..*............................ | ..*.*.......................... | ..*............................ |
| ....*.......................... | ...*........................... | ............................... | ............................... |
| ............................... | ............................... | ............................... | ............................... |
| .......*....................... | ......**....................... | ......**....................... | .....***....................... |
| ......**.........a............. | ......*.*........a............. | .....**..........a............. | .....*...........a............. |
| ......*.*.......a.C............ | ......*.........a.C............ | .......*........a.C............ | ......*.........a.C............ |
| ...........*...a.baA........... | ..........**...a.baA........... | ..........**...a.baA........... | .........***...a.baA........... |
| ..........**....Cacbc.......... | ..........*.*...Cacbc.......... | .........**.....Cacbc.......... | .........*......Cacbcc......... |
| ..........*.*....Ab.c.......... | ..........*......Ab.c.......... | ...........*.....Ab.cc......... | ..........*......bbccc......... |
| .................ccc........... | .............*..c...c.......... | .............**................ | ............**...b............. |
| .............**..ccc........... | .......*.....**................ | ......**....*...*.............. | ......**..*.*..*............... |
| ......***....**..Cc............ | ......****..*.***C.c........... | ......*..****...*.............. | .....**...*.....**............. |
| ......*..**.*...**............. | ......*.**.**..*c.............. | ......*....***...*............. | .......**.....*................ |
| ............*...**.*........... | .........*.....**.............. | ........**...**................ | .......*****..*..**............ |
| .......*..*****...*............ | ...........**.*.***............ | ........*..*..*..**............ | .......*...**....****.......... |
| ....*...*.....**.....*......... | ........***....*...*.*......... | .....*..***.*.****.***......... | ..***.....**.*.*.*..*.......... |

Can you do a search where you force a particular cell on, say adjacent to the known reaction? That way it can't find the same known thing over and over. It could be a pain, though, since you have to pick different cells to try and do a new search for each one. Or you could force one of the cells off instead.

Yes and no. I definitely can force a specific cell in a specific generation on or off. At best I have to try searches with multiple cells to try to avoid ruling out a reaction sharing the force cell. At worst the same reaction can be found shifted backwards or forwards one generation meaning ugly whack-a-mole trying to pick collections of forces that will prevent all such shifts but hopefully allow through another hypothetical reaction.