Tags? - Pros and Cons

[Mr. T]

Just a thought

I always wondered, why this website has such strict demarcations between topics, between seriousness and nonsense, between forum and wiki. I am very well aware, that an academical standard is to uphold in some respect. But when you get patterns presented with a certain rule, you have to do it with the Game of Live no matter if its highly mathematical, trivial or a simple play around.

And here tags are coming into play. Every article could have multiple tags. For example my prinTer could posses the following tags: c/10, c/7, function of the pattern, authors, synthesis, size of the pattern, weight of the pattern in Byte, timestamp and perhaps an evaluation of seriousness. You could differentiate between tags by the owner, tags by the conwaylife folk and tags by the administrators. You could use specific "Troll"-tags, tags with a time-component. With time-dependent tags the search for POTY would be simple.

Tag filter would offer the possibility of structured and detailed searching both in forum and in wiki.

So, what You think about tags? Good idea or bad idea? I would be pleased about serious responses.

Best regards

Mr. Trivial

[confocaloid]

And here tags are coming into play. Every article could have multiple tags. For example my prinTer could posses the following tags: c/10, c/7, function of the pattern, authors, synthesis, size of the pattern, weight of the pattern in Byte, timestamp and perhaps an evaluation of seriousness. You could differentiate between tags by the owner, tags by the conwaylife folk and tags by the administrators. You could use specific "Troll"-tags, tags with a time-component. With time-dependent tags the search for POTY would be simple.

Tag filter would offer the possibility of structured and detailed searching both in forum and in wiki.

So, what You think about tags? Good idea or bad idea? I would be pleased about serious responses.

On LifeWiki, the existing system of categories does accomplish (I think) more or less the same thing as tags -- that is, you can add multiple categories to a page to differentiate by pattern type, discoverer, discovery date, ... Even though the existing set of categories is imperfect, that can be improved over time. (See Help:Categories for an overview.)

However, the forum does not have any tagging system. Earlier there was a brief discussion/proposal of tags for the forums (see quote below), but I'm not aware of any continuation.

I support the tags idea. If implemented, forum tags could help to organize things (that is, without attempting crazy things like mirroring all forum developments on the wiki or creating lots of organizational threads).

And I forget to ask, who has/have the right to add/edit/remove tags for a topic? Moderators, the topic creator, or every forums user?

The topic creator and moderators would be able to add/edit/remove tags from a topic. When creating a topic, the author would be able to type in new tags from scratch, or select from a list of tags already in use. Moderators (behind the scenes) would be able to do things like merge different tags into one (so that if people made an "oscillator" tag, and then an "oscillators" tag, for example, they could be merged).

[Haycat2009]

And here tags are coming into play. Every article could have multiple tags. For example my prinTer could posses the following tags: c/10, c/7, function of the pattern, authors, synthesis, size of the pattern, weight of the pattern in Byte, timestamp and perhaps an evaluation of seriousness. You could differentiate between tags by the owner, tags by the conwaylife folk and tags by the administrators. You could use specific "Troll"-tags, tags with a time-component. With time-dependent tags the search for POTY would be simple.

Tag filter would offer the possibility of structured and detailed searching both in forum and in wiki.

So, what You think about tags? Good idea or bad idea? I would be pleased about serious responses.

On LifeWiki, the existing system of categories does accomplish (I think) more or less the same thing as tags -- that is, you can add multiple categories to a page to differentiate by pattern type, discoverer, discovery date, ... Even though the existing set of categories is imperfect, that can be improved over time. (See Help:Categories for an overview.)

However, the forum does not have any tagging system. Earlier there was a brief discussion/proposal of tags for the forums (see quote below), but I'm not aware of any continuation.

I support the tags idea. If implemented, forum tags could help to organize things (that is, without attempting crazy things like mirroring all forum developments on the wiki or creating lots of organizational threads).

And I forget to ask, who has/have the right to add/edit/remove tags for a topic? Moderators, the topic creator, or every forums user?

The topic creator and moderators would be able to add/edit/remove tags from a topic. When creating a topic, the author would be able to type in new tags from scratch, or select from a list of tags already in use. Moderators (behind the scenes) would be able to do things like merge different tags into one (so that if people made an "oscillator" tag, and then an "oscillators" tag, for example, they could be merged).

Agreed. We need an easier way to search for these things.

[haaaaaands]

yes, they'd REALLY be useful, because, a funny but useful post, you might have trouble finding it, because is it in the sandbox or in the on-topic forums? (patterns, general discussion, etc)

at the same time, if someone makes a tag containing racial slurs or something like that, it's as anti-forum rules as saying the same thing on the post itself.

[confocaloid]

yes, they'd REALLY be useful, because, a funny but useful post, you might have trouble finding it, because is it in the sandbox or in the on-topic forums? (patterns, general discussion, etc)

One thing you can do for your own posts, is to add some consistent string of characters somewhere at the end. It should be forum-searchable (e.g. no delimiters), but otherwise it works. E.g. see search.php?keywords=3TFL

[Mr. T]

yes, they'd REALLY be useful, because, a funny but useful post, you might have trouble finding it, because is it in the sandbox or in the on-topic forums? (patterns, general discussion, etc)

One thing you can do for your own posts, is to add some consistent string of characters somewhere at the end. It should be forum-searchable (e.g. no delimiters), but otherwise it works. E.g. see search.php?keywords=3TFL

Tags are so powerful, because with different filters you can find very precise the values of your pattern. With text-search alone it becomes very tortuous very fast.

When it comes to permission for tags, I would allow authors and administrators to unblock some tags to the community.

[Mr. T]

g9-to-g+g ...

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x = 65, y = 60, rule = LifeHistory
5$4.A8.A$5.A7.BA$3.3A6.3A6$45.2A$45.A3.2A$41.2A4.A2.A$36.2A2.B2AB2.4A
$30.A.2A.A.A2.3B2.B$30.2A.A.A5.B.3B2A8.3B$34.2AB2.7BA.A6.4B$34.2B2.9B
2A5.4B$35.11B7.4B$34.10B8.4B$33.11B7.4B$32.12B6.4B$30.16B3.4B$31.8B2A
6B.4B$32.6BA2BA9B$19.2A12.6B2A9B$20.A6.2B5.16B$19.A6.4B5.2B.6B2.4B$
19.2A4.6B3.2B2.5B4.B.B2A$21.AB.8B.B2AB2.3BA2B4.BA.A$19.3A12B2A5.ABA4B
4.A$18.A2.B.10B.B7.A.A.2A4.2A$18.2A3.9B8.A.A.ABABA$22.7BA4B5.A.A.A4.A
$21.7BABA4B3.A2.A.A.3A$18.2B.7BABA4B2.A3.A2.2A$17.2A10BA5BA2.4A$17.2A
B.13BAB2A$18.B.13B.BA2.2A$20.4B3.5B2.2B2A2.A$15.2A2.5B3.5B3.B.B.2A$
15.A2.A.2AB5.5B2.B2A.A$17.2A.A.A6.5B.BAB.A$18.A2.2A5.5B4.2A$16.A.A8.
8B$16.2A8.4B3.2A$25.4B4.A$24.4B6.3A$23.4B9.A$22.4B$21.4B$20.4B$20.3B$
20.2B!

with a sneaky property...

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x = 73, y = 65, rule = LifeHistory
2$15.A$15.BA$14.3A2$8.A.A$9.2A$9.A2$47.2A$47.A3.2A$43.2A4.A2.A$38.2A2.
B2AB2.4A$32.A.2A.A.A2.3B2.B$32.2A.A.A5.B.3B2A8.3B$36.2AB2.7BA.A6.4B$36.
2B2.9B2A5.4B$37.11B7.4B$36.10B8.4B$35.11B7.4B$34.12B6.4B$32.16B3.4B$33.
8B2A6B.4B$34.6BA2BA9B$21.2A12.6B2A9B$22.A6.2B5.16B$21.A6.4B5.2B.6B2.4B
$21.2A4.6B3.2B2.5B4.B.B2A$23.AB.8B.B2AB2.3BA2B4.BA.A$21.3A12B2A5.ABA4B
4.A$20.A2.B.10B.B7.A.A.2A4.2A$20.2A3.9B8.A.A.ABABA$24.7BA4B5.A.A.A4.A
$23.7BABA4B3.A2.A.A.3A$20.2B.7BABA4B2.A3.A2.2A$19.2A10BA5BA2.4A$19.2A
B.13BAB2A$20.B.13B.BA2.2A$22.4B3.5B2.2B2A2.A$17.2A2.5B3.5B3.B.B.2A$17.
A2.A.2AB5.5B2.B2A.A$19.2A.A.A6.5B.BAB.A$20.A2.2A5.5B4.2A$18.A.A8.8B$18.
2A8.4B3.2A$27.4B4.A$26.4B6.3A$25.4B9.A$24.4B$23.4B$22.4B$22.3B$22.2B!

g9-to-g+g ...

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see above

with a sneaky property...

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see above too :)

Why posting in Unsure thread ?
I think it's a nice splitter :

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x = 77, y = 68, rule = LifeHistory
23.4B$24.4B$25.4B$26.4B$27.5B7.2A$27.6B5.A.A$27.6B.B3.A$26.10B.2A$26.
10BA$25.12B2A$25.11B2.A$24.9B4.A$14.2A8.9B5.3A$15.A9.8B7.A$15.A.AB5.
9B$16.2AB.14B$18.17B$18.17B$19.17B$18.17B.B$16.21BA$14.19B2.BA.A16.2A
$14.2BE16B3.BA17.A3.2A$13.3BEBE4B.10B17.2A4.A2.A$14.2B3E4B2.10B11.2A
2.B2AB2.4A$13.5BE4B2.11B4.A.2A.A.A2.3B2.B$12.10B4.6B.4B3.2A.A.A5.B.3B
2A8.3B$11.4B10.7B2.4B6.2AB2.7BA.A6.4B$11.3B12.6B3.4B5.2B2.9B2A5.4B$9.
4B13.7B3.4B5.11B7.4B$9.2A16.5B5.4B3.10B8.4B$10.A16.6B5.4B.11B7.4B$7.
3A15.9B5.15B6.4B$7.A17.2A.7B5.16B3.4B$26.A5.4B5.8B2A6B.4B$23.3A7.4B5.
6BA2BA9B$23.A5.2A3.4B5.6B2A9B$30.A4.4B5.16B$29.A6.4B5.2B.6B2.4B$29.2A
4.6B3.2B2.5B4.B.B2A$31.AB.8B.B2AB2.3BA2B4.BA.A$29.3A12B2A5.ABA4B4.A$
28.A2.B.10B.B7.A.A.2A4.2A$28.2A3.10B7.A.A.ABABA$32.7BA4B5.A.A.A4.A$
31.7BABA4B3.A2.A.A.3A$28.2B.7BABA4B2.A3.A2.2A$27.2A10BA5BA2.4A$27.2AB
.13BAB2A$28.B.13B.BA2.2A$30.4B3.5B2.2B2A2.A$25.2A2.5B3.5B3.B.B.2A$25.
A2.A.2AB5.5B2.B2A.A$27.2A.A.A6.5B.BAB.A$28.A2.2A5.5B4.2A$26.A.A8.8B$
26.2A8.4B3.2A$35.4B4.A$34.4B6.3A$33.4B9.A$32.4B$31.4B$30.4B$30.3B$30.
2B!

A non-optimal p557 glider gun as a demo:

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x = 97, y = 81, rule = LifeHistory
19.2A11.A$18.B2AB9.A.A$19.3B9.A.A2.2A3.A$18.B.B9.2A.2A2.A2.A.A12.A$
18.5B8.B2.A.A3.A.A10.3A$18.6B6.2ABA2.4A.A10.A$18.8B4.2A.A.A3.A12.2A$
19.13B2.A.AB2.A9.4B$17.13B5.A.A2B.A7.3B20.2A$16.15B5.A2B.2A7.4B18.B2A
2B3.2A$16.15B4.3B10.5B19.4B2.B2AB$15.17B.B.2B11.6B3.A10.B.6B3.2B$15.
29B2.8B3.3A6.10B2.2B$14.13B2A26B5.A5.11B2A2B$13.14B2A25B5.2A4.12B2A3B
.B$12.2AB3.27B.7B6.4B2.18B2A$11.A2.A4.35B7.2BA2.15B.B2A$10.A.2A5.6B3.
B2.2B2.19B7.B2A16B3.B$10.A7.6B14.17B7.ABA15B$9.2A6.9B14.15B.2B2.19B$
16.4B4.2A15.38B$3.2A10.4B5.A16.8B.20B.7B$4.A9.4B7.3A11.8B3.2B2A16B2.
6B$2.A10.4B10.A11.2A3.B5.2B2A17B.7B$2.5A5.4B5.2A17.A10.21B.6B$7.A4.4B
5.A15.3A12.B.3B.4B7.9B$4.3AB2.7B.BA.A15.A20.3B9.8B$3.A.2B3.7B.B2A35.
4B11.8B$3.4A12B37.2A14.7B8.A$.2A2.BA3B2A7B38.A15.6B6.3A$A2.3AB.2B2A7B
35.3A16.7B4.A$2A.A.B3.10B35.A18.7B4.2A$3.A8.8B53.8B.4B$3.2A7.9B52.11B
$13.3B2.4B51.12B$11.5B3.4B50.12B$11.2A7.4B50.11B$12.A8.4B38.2A12.9B$
9.3A10.4B38.A11.10B.2B$9.A13.4B37.A.AB4.B.6BA10B$24.4B37.2AB2.11BA11B
3.B$25.4B38.23BA4B2A$26.4B14.2A20.13B3A6BABA3BABA$27.4B9.2A3.A20.16BA
4BA3BA4BA$28.4B8.A2.A4.2A16.13B4A3BA3B2A4B$29.4B8.4A2.B2AB2.2A11.A11B
A3B3AB2A3BA4B$30.4B11.B2.3B2.A.A.2A.A4.A3B.B3.4BABA3BA3B3A4B$31.4B8.
2A.2B.B5.A.A.2A3.B3A5.4B2.B2A3B4.4B$32.4B6.A.A7B2.B2A6.4B5.4B3.2A3B5.
5B$33.4B5.2A.8B2.2B5.4B5.4B3.2B.B7.4B$34.4B7.11B5.4B5.4B3.BA2B9.BA$
35.4B8.10B3.4B5.4B4.A.A8.A.A.A$36.4B7.11B.4B5.4B6.A8.A.2A.3A$37.4B6.
15B5.4B16.A7.A$38.4B3.16B5.4B16.2A6.2A$39.4B.6B2A8B5.4B$40.9BA2BA6B5.
4B$41.9B2A6B5.4B3.2A$41.16B5.4B4.A$41.4B2.6B.2B5.4B6.A$39.2AB.B4.5B2.
2B3.6B4.2A$38.A.AB4.2BA3B2.B2AB.8B.BA$38.A4.4BABA5.2A12B3A$37.2A4.2A.
A.A7.B.10B.B2.A$42.ABABA.A.A8.9B3.2A$42.A4.A.A.A5.4BA7B$43.3A.A.A2.A
3.4BABA7B$45.2A2.A3.A2.4BABA7B.2B$49.4A2.A5BA10B2A$53.2ABA13B.B2A$51.
2A2.AB.13B.B$50.A2.2A2B2.5B3.4B$50.2A.B.B3.5B3.3B.B2.2A$51.A.2AB2.5B
6.2A.A2.A$51.A.BAB.5B6.A.A.2A$52.2A4.5B5.2A2.A$56.8B8.A.A$56.2A3.4B8.
2A$57.A4.4B$54.3A6.4B$54.A9.4B!
#C [[ MAXGRIDSIZE 9 ]]

guntrue_557 is smaller by the bounding box area, and neither is Spartan or neo-Spartan.

This three postings make my case for the usage of tags. With every item a new property (tag) was added. The naming "unsure" at the start was reasonable, but could have gotten the labels H to G conduit, splitter and lastly Glider-gun.

[dvgrn]

This three postings make my case for the usage of tags. With every item a new property (tag) was added. The naming "unsure" at the start was reasonable, but could have gotten the labels H to G conduit, splitter and lastly Glider-gun.

Just to connect back to a previous discussion on this: almost two years ago, Nathaniel mentioned that "This is do-able, yes...". We would get whatever functionality was available out-of-the-box for the phpBB extension(s) to allow tags to be added. I don't have any experience with those extensions, so I can't speak to the question of whether the above descriptions of the ideal functionality would actually match what we could get via those extensions.

The description of the extensions seems to imply that the tagging is at the topic level, not at the post level:

The topic creator and moderators would be able to add/edit/remove tags from a topic.

I don't know if Nathaniel will have time to get something like this implemented in the near future, but I do suspect that if any kind of coding or customization was necessary, it would be much less likely that anything would actually happen. Also, the more people speak up here in favor of tagging functionality, probably the more likely it is that something will actually happen.

Personally I'm currently thinking that I'd rather have tagging at the level of individual posts. The simplest permissions option would be that a post's creator and moderators would be able to add/edit/remove tags from a post. It would be nice if there were a system where other people could suggest tags for other people's posts, and those suggestions could be accepted or rejected by the post's creator.

Technically we have that already...!
If there isn't a convenient out-of-the-box phpBB extension that can do tagging at the post level, then ... strange to say, we could really just set up a few simple standards and we'd have pretty much the search capability at the post level that people seem to be looking for. Post creators and moderators are already able to add tags -- it's just a matter of keeping an up-to-date list of the tags currently in use, which we could probably do on a LifeWiki page if we wanted to.

I've set up an example of a tag that's searchable and editable by post creators and moderators, with no changes to the current system. Try searching for

tagweekenderdoodah

to find posts relevant to the glider-to-{weekender|doo-dah} converter. If we wanted the tags to be less visible, we could decide to standardize on making them size=1; if we wanted them to be more visible, we could standardize on a line at the top or bottom of the post that said something like:

Tags: tagphpBBextension

[haaaaaands]

I've set up an example of a tag that's searchable and editable by post creators and moderators, with no changes to the current system. Try searching for

tagweekenderdoodah

to find posts relevant to the glider-to-{weekender|doo-dah} converter. If we wanted the tags to be less visible, we could decide to standardize on making them size=1; if we wanted them to be more visible, we could standardize on a line at the top or bottom of the post that said something like:

Tags: tagphpBBextension

hey, that does actually sound quite useful
getting the plugin without plugin just by adding text at the bottom in a different color or something

i guess we might have a pretty good and cheap solution?
idk why nobody came up with this idea earlier lol

[dvgrn]

i guess we might have a pretty good and cheap solution?
idk why nobody came up with this idea earlier lol

Well, the idea is probably only going to be useful in practice, if a good number of people agree on some standards for how to do the tagging -- and then actually take the time to do it, either by going back and editing old posts that they want to be easier to find, or by remembering to take the time to add tags to new posts.

Notice the no-plugin tags have to be in kind of a weird allwordsruntogether format. As soon as you use any kind of special characters, the search system splits the words apart and searches on them individually -- so we couldn't even use "tag_oscillator" or "tag:oscillator".

Capital letters are fine, though -- could use TAGweekenderdoodah or TagWeekenderDoodah, for example. Just no special characters.

[confocaloid]

idk why nobody came up with this idea earlier lol

'Nobody' is a strong word. Both the idea of "poor man's tags" (i.e. people consistently adding searchable keywords to their posts), and the idea of tags in general, were discussed a few times, and are already in some limited use. See for example these posts:

[...]
Edit: Tag: p5 MW HW dot domino sparker

[...]
Tag: p5 dot sparker domino sparker fumarole relative

[...]
I think a bit more brainstorming needs to be done before data collection begins. We wouldn't want to collect insufficient data for each object and later realize we need to go back through the database and add more data to every entry, nor would we want to spend time adding oscillators that we later decide don't belong in the database.

One part of the database that I want in some form but am not sure how best to include is a related patterns field. So for example if a pattern has an interesting variant those two patterns can somehow be connected in the database.

I tried to make a simple mock-up using the p18 oscillator collection from jslife. My oscillators.txt file lookes like this:

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#O Jason Summers and Gabriel Nivasch
#C Discovery date: 16 Oct 2002
#C Tags: century hassler
x = 29, y = 29, rule = B3/S23
18bo$16b3o$15bo$15b2o4$13bo$12b3o$12bo2bo$14b2o11b2o$27bo$8b2o15bobo$
7b2o9b2o5b2o$8bobo7bobo$2b2o5b2o9b2o$bobo15b2o$bo$2o11b2o$13bo2bo$14b
3o$15bo4$12b2o$13bo$10b3o$10bo!

--- rest of the code block removed ---

For some reason the comments are all out of order, and obviously there's no way yet to group related patterns, but it generally looks like I would want it to.

[Mr. T]

I knew, that phpBB allows Tags,I used it in different projects. Most forums support Tags. The most important benefit is, that the focus shifts from searching to filtering. Text-searching is important and sometimes the only method that works.On the other side: Tags can very quick isolate the searched items via processing different logical functions.

Note: It is to differentiate between Tags on a pattern and Tags on a post.

[Mr. T]

I've set up an example of a tag that's searchable and editable by post creators and moderators, with no changes to the current system. Try searching for

tagweekenderdoodah

to find posts relevant to the glider-to-{weekender|doo-dah} converter. If we wanted the tags to be less visible, we could decide to standardize on making them size=1; if we wanted them to be more visible, we could standardize on a line at the top or bottom of the post that said something like:

Tags: tagphpBBextension

hey, that does actually sound quite useful
getting the plugin without plugin just by adding text at the bottom in a different color or something

i guess we might have a pretty good and cheap solution?
idk why nobody came up with this idea earlier lol

As I remarked previous - the issue is not the collection of data (Tags, Labels, Categories) but the handling of the data. Text-searching works linear, The outcome of the search is input of the next search. Of course you can use advanced search, but the search-string becomes very unclear very fast I think. PhpBB has a full functioning FLOSS-Tag-Filter-Modul.