Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
This is a separate point but I think the current definition in the wiki cannot describe the dependent version of Silver's reflector which requires the next signal to appear in some time range but not requiring the stream to be periodic (I got that right, right?)
- confocaloid
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
I believe that depends on how you advertise the reflector.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 2:19 amThis is a separate point but I think the current definition in the wiki cannot describe the dependent version of Silver's reflector which requires the next signal to appear in some time range but not requiring the stream to be periodic (I got that right, right?)
For example, suppose somewhere in an unfinished/incomplete pattern you leave the part inside the red rectangle unspecified (empty), and say only that it will contain a p249 dependent reflector with this input glider stream and these output glider streams (without committing to any specific choice of the p249 dependent reflector):
Code: Select all
x = 121, y = 155, rule = LifeHistory
65.4B$66.4B$67.4B$68.4B$69.4B$70.4B$71.4B$46.75D$46.D26.4B43.D$46.D
27.4B42.D$46.D28.4B41.D$46.D29.4B40.D$46.D30.4B39.D$46.D31.4B38.D$46.
D32.4B20.2A15.D$46.D33.4B17.2B2AB14.D$46.D34.4B16.4B15.D$46.D24.A10.
4B15.6B13.D$46.D22.3A11.4B15.5B13.D$46.D6.A14.A15.4B14.6B12.D$46.D6.
3A12.2A15.4B13.7B11.D$46.D9.A7.2B.3B3.7B.B4.4B12.6B12.D$46.D8.2A6.5B
5.13B.4B10.7B12.D$46.D8.5B2.11B3A4B2A16B4.6B12.D$46.D10.22B2AB2A15B2.
7B12.D$46.D9.2A16BA8BA15B2.7B12.D$46.D9.2A16BABABA4BA15B.9B11.D$46.D
10.B.14BA8BA26B11.D$46.D12.14BA4B3AB3.2B2.20B4.B6.D$46.D13.9B2.BA4BAB
AB11.19B.B2A5.D$46.D14.8B3.A3BAB16.19B2A5.D$46.D15.7B4.2BA19.17B.B6.D
$46.D12.11B3.B20.17B9.D$46.D11.12B2.2A20.17B9.D$46.D11.12B2.A19.2AB.
15B9.D$46.D11.11B5.A16.A.AB4.12B9.D$46.D11.8B.4B2.2A16.A9.11B8.D$46.D
11.7B4.2A19.2A8.13B7.D$46.D11.7B4.A30.12B8.D$46.D11.6B6.3A28.10B9.D$
46.D10.7B8.A29.9B9.D$46.D9.8B38.9B9.D$46.D8.8B39.9B9.D$46.D7.9B40.5B
12.D$46.D6.4B.6B39.4B13.D$46.D5.4B.7B39.4B13.D$46.D4.4B2.6B15.2A22.4B
14.D$46.D3.4B3.8B4.B8.A22.4B15.D$46.D2.4B5.B2A6B.4B3.BA.A21.4B16.D$
46.D.4B5.2B2A13B.B2A21.4B17.D$46.D4B7.18B22.4B18.D$46.D3B9.17B21.4B
19.D$45.BD2B13.13B21.4B20.D$44.2BDB13.12B22.4B21.D$43.3BD14.10B23.4B
22.D$42.4BD13.11B22.4B23.D$41.4B.D13.7B.2B22.4B24.D$40.4B2.D12.11B21.
4B25.D$40.3B3.D13.11B19.4B26.D$40.2B4.D13.11B18.4B27.D$40.B5.D13.11B
17.4B28.D$46.D11.2AB2.8B16.4B29.D$46.D10.A.AB3.7B15.4B30.D$46.D10.A6.
7B14.4B31.D$46.D9.2A7.6B13.4B32.D$46.D18.7B11.4B33.D$46.D18.8B9.4B34.
D$46.D19.8B7.4B35.D$46.D19.9B5.4B36.D$46.D18.6B.4B3.4B37.D$46.D18.7B.
4B.4B38.D$46.D19.6B2.7B39.D$46.D19.6B3.5B40.D$46.D19.2B2AB4.5B40.D$
46.D18.3B2A2B2.7B39.D$46.D18.7B.4B.4B38.D$46.D19.5B.4B3.4B37.D$46.D
19.9B5.4B36.D$46.D19.8B7.4B35.D$46.D19.7B9.4B34.D$46.D10.2A7.6B11.4B
33.D$46.D11.A7.BA5B5.2A4.4B32.D$46.D11.A.AB3.BA5B6.A6.4B31.D$46.D12.
2AB.3B3A5B.BA.A7.4B30.D$46.D14.2B2A6BA2B.B2A9.4B29.D$46.D13.2BA2BA4BA
BA3B12.4B28.D$46.D14.2B2A5BABA3B13.4B27.D$46.D12.2AB.8BA2B16.4B26.D$
46.D11.A.AB2.8B19.4B25.D$46.D11.A4.4B2.3B20.4B24.D$46.D10.2A3.3AB3.5B
19.4B23.D$46.D14.3BA6.B2A20.4B22.D$46.D13.3BA8.A22.4B21.D$46.D12.4B
10.3A20.4B20.D$46.D11.4B13.A21.4B19.D$46.D10.4B37.4B18.D$46.D9.4B39.
4B17.D$46.D8.4B41.BABA16.D$46.D7.4B43.B2AB15.D$46.D6.4B45.A3B14.D$46.
D5.4B47.4B13.D$46.D4.4B49.4B12.D$46.75D$49.4B53.4B$48.4B55.4B$47.4B
57.4B$46.4B59.4B$45.4B61.4B$44.4B63.4B$43.4B65.4B$42.4B67.4B$41.4B69.
4B$40.4B71.4B$39.4B73.4B$38.4B$37.4B$36.4B$35.4B$34.4B$33.4B$32.4B$
31.4B$30.4B$29.4B$28.4B$27.4B$26.4B$25.4B$24.4B$23.4B$22.4B$21.4B$20.
4B$19.4B$18.4B$17.4B$16.4B$15.4B$14.4B$13.4B$12.4B$11.4B$10.4B$9.4B$
8.4B$7.4B$6.4B$5.4B$4.4B$3.4B$2.4B$.4B$2A2B$B2A$AB!
(You might block unneeded outputs by fishhooks placed inside the red rectangle, reducing the number of requirements on what can be used.)
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
I meant the current dependent reflector terminology cannot describe, for example, p249-251 dependent reflectors. Which I'm almost certain everyone thinks is a dependent reflector.confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 2:30 amI believe that depends on how you advertise the reflector.
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
IMO that's correct. A dependent reflector would be a reflector that works [is guaranteed to work] at a specific period N -- and is not guaranteed to behave in any specific way when the input stream is not a correctly timed uninterrupted period-N stream.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:01 amI meant the current dependent reflector terminology cannot describe, for example, p249-251 dependent reflectors.confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 2:30 amI believe that depends on how you advertise the reflector.
If you describe overclocked Silver's reflector occurring somewhere in circuitry as "p249 dependent reflector", you would imply that that part of circuitry always redirects uninterrupted period-249 glider streams (and consequently there are no signals/information passing through the reflector).
If you vary timing of individual gliders to transmit some information without breaking the overclocked reflector, then it is incorrect to describe it as "dependent reflector".
The page dependent reflector shows many examples of what I would alternatively describe as "glider gun engines supported by glider streams" -- they emit gliders at period N as long as input period-N glider stream comes in. Every unique engine of this kind is interesting to me.
"Engineered dependent reflectors" are interesting/useful in their own way, but they're a different kind of thing. There may be ways to use them beyond the advertisement "period-N dependent reflector" (but such uses would make devices that should not be described as dependent reflectors anymore).
Edit:
No, I think those are overclocked reflectors. A dependent reflector is always "period N" for some specific N.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
I strongly disagree. I think dependent reflector should mean a reflector that reflects "dvgrn-signal" that depends on the next "dvgrn-signal" to be present. (Dvgrn signal used as a placeholder for whatever term it settles to)confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:12 amA dependent reflector would be a reflector that works [is guaranteed to work] at a specific period N -- and is not guaranteed to behave in any specific way when the input stream is not a correctly timed uninterrupted period-N stream.
Edit for context: I'm strongly disagreeing afaik this had been the original usage of the term.
Last edited by Scorbie on August 19th, 2023, 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
- confocaloid
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Well, I think the current definition of "dependent reflector" does not cover such devices, at least.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:35 amI strongly disagree. I think dependent reflector should mean a reflector that reflects "dvgrn-signal" that depends on the next "dvgrn-signal" to be present. (Dvgrn signal used as a placeholder for whatever term it settles to)confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:12 amA dependent reflector would be a reflector that works [is guaranteed to work] at a specific period N -- and is not guaranteed to behave in any specific way when the input stream is not a correctly timed uninterrupted period-N stream.
Personally, I think it shouldn't cover them -- they are different devices.
Without at least some restrictions / clarifications, it would become rather strange -- suppose the next input glider is required to come at some finite time later, but is not required to come before any specific time. It might arrive 100 ticks later or 10^9 ticks later or 10^10^9 ticks later, but it must arrive at some finite time. Would that make sense?
Would it make sense to say "dependent reflector" to describe a device that requires consecutive input gliders to be separated by the number of ticks divisible by 10, but does not place any further constraints? Etc.
Further, reflectors are only defined for spaceships (most commonly gliders). There are no "Herschel reflectors".
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Whoops, I didn't expect you to reply so fast. Let me point out what I edited in in my last post:confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:44 amWell, I think the current definition of "dependent reflector" does not cover such devices, at least.
Personally, I think it shouldn't cover them -- they are different devices.
Afair this was the lifewiki entry before the edit, right? Whether confusing or not I don't think you should alter the meaning of past or current usage of the terms. Assuming this is how this term has been used, I recommend leaving this as historical baggage and promote a new well-defined term?
- confocaloid
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
As a matter of fact, I did not "alter the meaning" of terms.
Edit: here is a copy of the definition:
In this edit, I copied the definition of "dependent reflector" from the page Reflector. I use that definition; it is not something invented by me. By that definition, a dependent reflector always has some specific period, and requires an input stream of the same period.
Edit: here is a copy of the definition:
LifeWiki/Reflector wrote:A periodic reflector is described as dependent if it requires that the incoming stream repeat with the same period as the reflector, or independent otherwise.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:55 amAs a matter of fact, I did not "alter the meaning" of terms.
My bad, I think I remembered false memories of seeing my suggested definition on the wiki. I have always thought dependent reflectors as the definition I suggested. This is because I'm used to the term "dependent conduit", and in my brain the concept of the adjective "dependent" carried over to the term "dependent reflector". I still think it's pretty possible that the author meant something similar to my suggestion but limited its usage to periodic reflectors. Because this is so surprising to me, what do you think of asking the community whether the quicksilver reflector is a dependent reflector or not?confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:55 amA periodic reflector is described as dependent if it requires that the incoming stream repeat with the same period as the reflector, or independent otherwise.
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
In my opinion, asking the community is one of best ways to potentially resolve this -- as long as it does not boil down to an argument between few active members. The small set of members active at a given time cannot represent the community.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 4:26 amconfocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:55 amAs a matter of fact, I did not "alter the meaning" of terms.My bad, I think I remembered false memories of seeing my suggested definition on the wiki. I have always thought dependent reflectors as the definition I suggested. This is because I'm used to the term "dependent conduit", and the concept of the adjective "dependent" carried over to the term "dependent reflector". I still think it's pretty possible that the author meant something similar to my suggestion but limited its usage to periodic reflectors. Because this is so surprising to me, what do you think of asking the community whether the quicksilver reflector is a dependent reflector or not?confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 3:55 amA periodic reflector is described as dependent if it requires that the incoming stream repeat with the same period as the reflector, or independent otherwise.
In this case, I believe even better would be to leave the current definition as it is. The current definition is written by someone who (I believe) has good knowledge of stable technology and reflectors in particular, and importantly the current definition is older than the attempted redefinition of "dependent reflector".
Given that this thread appears to me to be a misguided attempt to discuss multiple different issues at once, my suggestion would be to leave existing older definitions unchanged. That includes "dependent reflector" and "signal".
Edit: corrected/added a link.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
(I think this made me think that the term is on the wiki) I found usage by another person who does have good knowledge of stable technology and reflectors, which coincides with my interpretation:confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 4:35 amThe current definition is written by someone who (I believe) has good knowledge of stable technology and reflectors in particular, and importantly the current definition is older than the attempted redefinition of "dependent reflector".
I also want to point out I'm not nitpicking to suggest my artificial argument, this term had a semantic meaning I have taken for granted for years, so I really want to make this clear. Also considering that the meaning of this term is the very topic of this thread, I think it's worth carrying out.calcyman wrote: ↑July 5th, 2023, 6:00 pmTo me, 'dependent reflector loop' accurately describes this particular type of oscillator. The word 'signal' doesn't feature in 'dependent reflector loop', so even though I agree with confocaloid's point that these* dependent reflectors cannot reusably transmit information, I don't see why that should disqualify these oscillators from being called 'loops'.
*the overclocked Silver reflector, on the other hand, can transmit information, because there's freedom in the relative timings of gliders.
Last edited by Scorbie on August 19th, 2023, 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
- confocaloid
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Well, I do agree that it would be nice to have this settled in a reasonable way. ("Reasonable" would imply that the issue would be somehow resolved, and not just hidden.) It's just that I, personally, don't believe / don't expect that it will be resolved now in this thread. I might be wrong on this.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 4:45 am...
I also want to point out I'm not nitpicking to suggest my artificial argument, this term had a semantic meaning I have taken for granted for years, so I really want to make this clear. Also considering that the meaning of this term is the very topic of this thread, I think it's worth carrying out.
Also, there's my opinion, and there are opinions by other members expressed here on the forum. And then there are current definitions, and sometimes versions of definitions, and multiple different interlinked issues.
When it is unclear what to do, my preference would be to keep the old definitions.
I don't expect these issues to be resolved in a satisfactory way now, or in near future. (I would be very happy to be wrong on this particular point.)
Edit:
The term is on the wiki, copied unmodified to the Dependent reflector article from the Reflector article.
Last edited by confocaloid on August 19th, 2023, 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Since you pointed out that QuickSilver reflector is not a dependent reflector according to the current definition I cannot just move on ignoring things and keeping them ambiguous and I really would like to make this clear. That sentence can be made into a well defined proposition, so I think it's pretty easy to verify the community's opinions on this proposition. What do you think?confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 4:52 amWell, I do agree that it would be nice to have this settled in a reasonable way. ("Reasonable" would imply that the issue would be somehow resolved, and not just hidden.) It's just that I, personally, don't believe / don't expect that it will be resolved now in this thread. I might be wrong on this.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 4:45 am...
I also want to point out I'm not nitpicking to suggest my artificial argument, this term had a semantic meaning I have taken for granted for years, so I really want to make this clear. Also considering that the meaning of this term is the very topic of this thread, I think it's worth carrying out.
Also, there's my opinion, and there are opinions by other members expressed here on the forum. And then there are current definitions, and sometimes versions of definitions, and multiple different interlinked issues.
I don't expect these issues to be resolved in a satisfactory way now, or in near future. (I would be very happy to be wrong on this particular point.)
- confocaloid
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
I think I already expressed my opinion above.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 4:55 amSince you pointed out that QuickSilver reflector is not a dependent reflector I cannot just move on ignoring things and I really would like to make this clear. That sentence can be made into a well defined proposition, so I think it's pretty easy to verify the community's opinions on this proposition. What do you think?
Assuming I did explain myself sufficiently clearly, of course feel free to do whatever you believe to be reasonable.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
I would say that QuickSilver is not a dependent periodic reflector (it's obviously not periodic), but is a dependent stable reflector (it's locally-stable circuitry that puts constraint on what the input signals might be to allow it to continue functioning as a reflector). Maybe it's a good idea to reserve 'dependent reflector' only for periodic dependent reflectors, and use something like 'constrained reflector' for QuickSilver, but I'm fine either way, with slight preference to extending terminology instead of introducing new one in this case.
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Maybe one should clarify whether "a..b generations" means relative to the timing of the previous input glider, or relative to how the glider would be timed in a period-N input stream.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 5:26 am- In other words, if we define X as a reflector that requires the next active object to arrive at a..b generations, X and "dependent reflector" are different terms. viewtopic.php?p=165398#p165398
The second option would allow e.g. periodic reflectors where each individual glider can be either aligned correctly or delayed by one tick.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Since both options are a breaking change to the existing definition (edit: and both options follow the semantics of what I suggested above), I'll keep the poll as is and link to your comment about this ambiguity.confocaloid wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 6:25 amMaybe one should clarify whether "a..b generations" means relative to the timing of the previous input glider, or relative to how the glider would be timed in a period-N input stream.
The second option would allow e.g. periodic reflectors where each individual glider can be either aligned correctly or delayed by one tick.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Writing a post on the poll thread made me think of an alternate wording. Since there is much debate of what it's reflecting, how about we make the term generic to sidestep this debate?
"A dependent X reflector is an X reflector that ..."
"A dependent reflector is any dependent X reflector for any X"
The wording is just what I came up with, but I hope you get the idea.
"A dependent X reflector is an X reflector that ..."
"A dependent reflector is any dependent X reflector for any X"
The wording is just what I came up with, but I hope you get the idea.
- confocaloid
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
I don't think there is much debate on what reflectors are reflecting. By definition, reflectors reflect spaceships.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 11:07 pmWriting a post on the poll thread made me think of an alternate wording. Since there is much debate of what it's reflecting, how about we make the term generic to sidestep this debate?
"A dependent X reflector is an X reflector that ..."
"A dependent reflector is any dependent X reflector for any X"
The wording is just what I came up with, but I hope you get the idea.
I don't see any need to redefine 'reflector', 'dependent reflector', 'signal'. Those are already defined in the correct way.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
- confocaloid
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Here is a period-104 version of the oscillator:Jormungant wrote: ↑August 18th, 2023, 7:02 pm... I guess I shared a weird pattern for some thought, ...
Code: Select all
x = 143, y = 128, rule = LifeHistory 8$83.A$83.3A$74.A11.A$74.3A8.2A5.4B$77.A7.11B$60.2A14.2A3.B5.11B$59.B 2AB13.8B2.11B2A$60.2B16.19B2A$55.B3.2B17.20B$54.2AB.4B15.20B$54.2A8B 11.21B$55.B.B2A6B2.2B2.25B$58.2A15BD14B4.4B$58.17BDBD4B.6B6.4B$54.21B 3D4B2.B.5B5.4B$54.23BD4B7.2A6.4B$53.2A26B8.A8.4B$53.2A14B.4B16.3A6.4B $54.B.11B2.4B19.A7.4B$56.10B2.4B29.4B$57.14B31.4B$56.14B33.4B$57.13B 34.4B$57.13B35.4B$59.2B.4B3DB36.4B$62.5BD2B37.4B$61.4B3D2B38.4B$61.9B 39.4B$59.2CB2.7B39.4B$58.C.CB2.8B39.4B$58.C6.8B39.4B13.A$57.2C6.8B40. 4B10.3A$64.6B2.B2A39.4B8.A$64.7B.BA.A23.2A14.4B7.2A$65.6B4.A4.2A.A.2A 11.B2AB14.4B3.5B$65.6B4.2A2.A2.2A.A2.A.2A.A4.3B16.4B2.3B$65.6B7.A.A4. A.2A.A.2A5.B.B16.9B7.2A$64.8B7.A.5A2.B8.5B17.8B8.A$63.8B10.A4.AB2A6. 6B18.10B3.B.A.2A$32.2A29.9B8.A2.BA.A.2A4.8B18.4BD2B2A2B.B3A2.A$32.A.A 28.9B7.A.2BA.A2.13B19.2BDBD2B2A3BAB2.2A$34.A4.2A21.10B7.2A.2BA5.13B 17.3B2D7B4A$30.4A.2A2.A2.A19.3B2A5B11.3B3.15B14.2AB.7B3.2B.A$30.A2.A. A.A.A.2A18.4B2A5B12.4B.15B13.A.AB.7B2.B3A$32.BABABA.A21.11B11.4B.17B 12.A5.4B4.A$33.B2ABA.A16.2A.A7BD4B4.29B11.2A5.4B5.5A$34.2B.BA17.A.2A 2.4B3DB5.4BC11B2A2BD10B16.4B10.A$33.3B27.2B2D2BD3B2.4B3C9B2A2BD11B2. 2A10.4B9.A$24.2A6.4B28.10B.4BCBC13BD6B3.B2A2.A9.4B10.2A$25.A6.B2A3B 26.17BC19B4.A.B2A9.4B$25.A.AB3.B2A3B25.22B2.2B2.B3.6B5.A11.4B$26.2AB. 10B23.19B14.6B5.3A7.4B$28.13B18.2B.20B12.9B7.A5.4B$28.5B3D6B16.2C24B 10.2A4.4B5.2A4.4B$28.7BD7B15.2C25B10.A5.4B4.9B$30.8B2.4B10.A4.27B6.3A 7.4B5.6B$30.6B5.4B7.3A6.27B4.A10.4B2.8B$29.9B4.4B5.A10.25B2C15.7BD7B$ 28.4B4.2A5.4B4.2A10.24B2C16.6B3D5B$27.4B5.A7.9B12.20B.2B18.13B$26.4B 7.3A5.6B14.19B23.10B.B2A$25.4B11.A5.6B3.B2.2B2.22B25.3B2AB3.BA.A$24. 4B9.2AB.A4.19BC17B26.3B2AB6.A$11.2A10.4B9.A2.2AB3.6BD13BCBC4B.10B28. 4B6.2A$12.A9.4B10.2A2.11BD2B2A9B3C4B2.3BD2B2D2B27.3B$10.A10.4B16.10BD 2B2A11BC4B5.B3D4B2.2A.A17.AB.2B$10.5A5.4B5.2A11.29B4.4BD7BA.2A16.A.AB 2AB$15.A4.4B5.A12.17B.4B11.11B21.A.ABABAB$12.3AB2.7B.BA.A13.15B.4B12. 5B2A4B18.2A.A.A.A.A2.A$11.A.2B3.7B.B2A14.15B3.3B11.5B2A3B19.A2.A2.2A. 4A$11.4A7B2D3B17.13B5.A2B.2A7.10B21.2A4.A$9.2A2.BA3B2A2BDBD2B19.13B2. A.A2B.A7.9B28.A.A$8.A2.3AB.2B2A2BD4B18.8B4.2A.A.AB2.A8.9B29.2A$8.2A.A .B3.10B18.6B6.2ABA4.A10.8B$11.A8.8B17.5B8.B2.5A.A7.8B$11.2A7.9B16.B.B 5.2A.A.2A.A4.A.A7.6B$21.3B2.4B16.3B4.A.2A.A2.A.2A2.A2.2A4.6B$19.5B3. 4B14.B2AB11.2A.A.2A4.A4.6B$19.2A7.4B14.2A23.A.AB.7B$20.A8.4B39.2AB2. 6B$17.3A10.4B40.8B6.2C$17.A13.4B39.8B6.C$32.4B39.8B2.BC.C$33.4B39.7B 2.B2C$34.4B39.9B$35.4B38.2B3D4B$36.4B37.2BD5B$37.4B36.B3D4B.2B$38.4B 35.13B$39.4B34.13B$40.4B33.14B$41.4B31.14B$42.4B29.4B2.10B$43.4B7.A 19.4B2.11B.B$44.4B6.3A16.4B.14B2A$45.4B8.A8.26B2A$46.4B6.2A7.4BD23B$ 47.4B5.5B.B2.4B3D21B$48.4B6.6B.4BDBD17B$49.4B4.14BD15B2A$50.25B2.2B2. 6B2AB.B$51.21B11.8B2A$50.20B15.4B.B2A$49.20B17.2B3.B$48.2A19B16.2B$ 48.2A11B2.8B13.B2AB$49.11B5.B3.2A14.2A$51.11B7.A$51.4B5.2A8.3A$60.A 11.A$61.3A$63.A!
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x = 131, y = 112, rule = LifeHistory
75.A$75.3A$66.A11.A$66.3A8.2A5.4B$69.A7.11B$52.2A14.2A3.B5.11B$51.B2A
B13.8B2.11B2A$52.2B16.19B2A$47.A3.2B17.20B$46.A2B.A3B15.20B$46.A7BAB
11.21B$47.A.A3BABA2B2.2B2.BA23B$50.5A10B2AC14B4.4B$50.B3A11B2ACBD4B.
6B6.4B$46.4B3A3B2A6BA2BDCD4B2.B.5B5.4B$46.3B2A5B2A6B4ABD4B7.2A6.4B$
45.2A2B2A13BAB2A5B8.A8.4B$45.2A14B.B.2B16.3A6.4B$46.B.11B5.3B17.A7.2B
AB$48.10B7.A2B.2A22.2B2A$49.12B3.A.A2B.A23.2A2B$48.14B2.2AB2.A25.4B$
49.13B6.A27.4B$49.13B2.5A.A26.4B$51.2B.4B3DB2.A4.A.A26.4B$55.4BD2B4.A
2.A.A27.4B$55.2B3D2B3.2A3.A29.4B$56.6B39.4B$56.7B39.4B$56.8B39.4B$57.
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6B2A8.A$55.8B10.A4.AB2A6.6B18.2B4AB2AB3.B.A.2A$24.2A29.9B8.A2.BA.A.2A
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5BABCA3B4.29B11.2A5.A2BA5.5A$26.2B.BA17.A.2A2.4B2CDB5.4BC11B2A13B16.B
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3B25.22B2.2B2.B3.6B5.A11.4B$18.2AB.10B23.19B14.4B2A5.3A7.4B$20.13B18.
2B.20B12.5B2A2B7.A5.4B$20.14B16.2C24B10.2A4.BA2B5.2A4.4B$20.15B15.2C
25B10.A5.4B4.9B$22.8B2.4B10.A4.27B6.3A7.4B5.6B$22.6B5.4B7.3A6.27B4.A
10.4B2.8B$21.9B4.4B5.A10.25B2C15.15B$20.4B4.2A5.2BAB4.2A10.24B2C16.
14B$19.4B5.A7.2B2A5B12.20B.2B18.13B$18.4B7.3A5.2A4B14.19B23.10B.B2A$
17.4B11.A5.6B3.B2.2B2.22B25.3B2AB3.BA.A$16.4B9.2AB.A4.19BC17B26.3B2AB
6.A$3.2A10.4B9.A2.2AB3.20BCBC4B.10B28.4B6.2A$4.A9.4B10.2A2.14B2A9B3C
4B2.3BD2B2D2B27.3B$2.A10.ABAB16.13B2A11BC4B5.BD2C4B2.2A.A17.AB.2B$2.
5A5.A2BA5.2A11.29B4.3BACBA5BA.2A16.A.AB2AB$7.A4.A3B5.A12.17B.4B11.3B
2ABA4B21.A.ABABAB$4.3AB2.7B.BA.A13.15B3.2B12.5BA5B18.2A.A.A.A.A2.A$3.
A.2B3.2A4BA.B2A14.15B3.3B11.10B19.A2.A2.2A.4A$3.3A2BA2BABA2BA2B17.13B
5.A2B.2A7.10B21.2A4.A$.2A2.5B2A2BAB2AB19.13B2.A.A2B.A7.9B28.A.A$A2.4A
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10.8B$3.A8.2A6B17.5B8.B2.5A.A7.8B$3.2A7.A8B16.B.B5.2A.A.2A.A4.A.A7.6B
$13.3B2.4B16.3B4.A.2A.A2.A.2A2.A2.2A4.6B$11.5B3.4B14.B2AB11.2A.A.2A4.
A4.6B$11.2A7.4B14.2A23.A.AB.7B$12.A8.4B39.2AB2.6B$9.3A10.4B40.8B$9.A
13.4B39.8B$24.4B39.8B$25.4B39.7B$26.4B39.6B$27.4B29.A3.2A3.2B3D2B$28.
4B27.A.A2.A4.2BD4B$29.4B26.A.A4.A2.B3D4B.2B$30.4B26.A.5A2.13B$31.4B
27.A6.13B$32.4B25.A2.B2A2.14B$33.2B2A23.A.2BA.A3.12B$34.2A2B22.2A.2BA
7.10B$35.BA2B7.A17.3B5.11B.B$36.4B6.3A16.2B.B.14B2A$37.4B8.A8.5B2ABA
13B2A2B2A$38.4B6.2A7.4BDB4A6B2A5B2A3B$39.4B5.5B.B2.4BDCD2BA6B2A3B3A4B
$40.4B6.6B.4BDBC2A11B3AB$41.4B4.14BC2A10B5A$42.23BAB2.2B2.2BABA3BA.A$
43.21B11.BA7BA$42.20B15.3BA.2BA$41.20B17.2B3.A$40.2A19B16.2B$40.2A11B
2.8B13.B2AB$41.11B5.B3.2A14.2A$43.11B7.A$43.4B5.2A8.3A$52.A11.A$53.3A
$55.A!
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
- wirehead
- Posts: 253
- Joined: June 18th, 2022, 2:37 pm
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Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
Okay, so from what I understand, a dependent reflector is a glider reflector that explodes if it isn't fed a constant stream of input gliders.
In that state they really can only transmit information once: they signal the end of the input stream by exploding.
However, I thought: is there a dependent reflector that can accept gliders at multiple slightly offset input timings (i.e. if the period is p, it successfully accepts gliders at times t = p*n and t = p*n + k where 0 < k << p), and each input timing affects the output glider timing in the same way.
So you would actually be able to transmit a continuous stream of bits this way, by shifting the glider timings, even though if you omit any one glider the whole thing explodes (i.e. it's dependent).
Does something like this exist?
In that state they really can only transmit information once: they signal the end of the input stream by exploding.
However, I thought: is there a dependent reflector that can accept gliders at multiple slightly offset input timings (i.e. if the period is p, it successfully accepts gliders at times t = p*n and t = p*n + k where 0 < k << p), and each input timing affects the output glider timing in the same way.
So you would actually be able to transmit a continuous stream of bits this way, by shifting the glider timings, even though if you omit any one glider the whole thing explodes (i.e. it's dependent).
Does something like this exist?
- confocaloid
- Posts: 3063
- Joined: February 8th, 2022, 3:15 pm
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
AFAIK the word 'dependent' is usually used only for periodic dependent reflector reactions (emitting output gliders at a fixed schedule and supported by an input glider stream with the same period), like those shown on the page Dependent reflector.wirehead wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 6:43 pmOkay, so from what I understand, a dependent reflector is a glider reflector that explodes if it isn't fed a constant stream of input gliders.
In that state they really can only transmit information once: they signal the end of the input stream by exploding.
However, I thought: is there a dependent reflector that can accept gliders at multiple slightly offset input timings (i.e. if the period is p, it successfully accepts gliders at times t = p*n and t = p*n + k where 0 < k << p), and each input timing affects the output glider timing in the same way.
So you would actually be able to transmit a continuous stream of bits this way, by shifting the glider timings, even though if you omit any one glider the whole thing explodes (i.e. it's dependent).
Does something like this exist?
There are engineered reflectors (e.g. an overclocked Silver's reflector) that can work when the separations between consecutive input gliders are restricted to a set of values. This is described as overclocking.
See also the posts by several people in the forum thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6099
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
This doesn't seem quite accurate. "Dependent reflector" has quite regularly been used as a description of overclocked Silver reflectors.confocaloid wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 7:18 pmAFAIK the word 'dependent' is usually used only for periodic dependent reflector reactions (emitting output gliders at a fixed schedule and supported by an input glider stream with the same period), like those shown on the page Dependent reflector.
The poll results in the thread confocaloid linked to seem to indicate that, at best, there is no broad agreement that 'dependent' is usually used only for strictly periodic dependent reflectors. (There's some more discussion of this starting from the linked post.)
- confocaloid
- Posts: 3063
- Joined: February 8th, 2022, 3:15 pm
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
This is inaccurate. I cannot find prior uses of the phrase 'dependent reflector' in that way, before/outside this forum thread and the recent terminology-related discussion.
In the prior uses I can find, 'dependent reflector' refers to a periodic (period-N) elementary reaction that emits a period-N glider stream and is supported by a period-N glider stream.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis
That's true -- I'm not finding a lot of support for my "quite regularly" characterization, so I'll withdraw those two words. In describing the reasons for the poll, Scorbie pointed to an example of that usage --confocaloid wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 11:07 pmThis is inaccurate. I cannot find prior uses of the phrase 'dependent reflector' in that way, before/outside this forum thread and the recent terminology-related discussion.
-- and you quoted Pavgran's use of "dependent stable reflector" in the context of the QuickSilver Demonoid mechanism. But those were both from earlier this thread.Scorbie wrote: ↑August 19th, 2023, 5:26 am- There is prior usage of quicksilver reflector included as dependent reflectorsviewtopic.php?p=163340#p163340. The current definition only allows quicksilver reflectors as dependent reflectors if it's used in a constant period stream.
This poll was made to check the community's opinion of the term "dependent reflector" coincides with this aspect of the LifeWiki definition.
For the last decade or so I've certainly considered a Silver reflector to be a (somewhat specialized) edge-case example of a dependent reflector. It sounds like Pavgran and calcyman were thinking along similar lines. But that terminology apparently wasn't particularly useful in practice, in the course of building the QuickSilver Demonoid (or any other time)!