Dependent Reflector Terminology and Analysis

[Scorbie]

This is a separate point but I think the current definition in the wiki cannot describe the dependent version of Silver's reflector which requires the next signal to appear in some time range but not requiring the stream to be periodic (I got that right, right?)

[confocaloid]

This is a separate point but I think the current definition in the wiki cannot describe the dependent version of Silver's reflector which requires the next signal to appear in some time range but not requiring the stream to be periodic (I got that right, right?)

I believe that depends on how you advertise the reflector.
For example, suppose somewhere in an unfinished/incomplete pattern you leave the part inside the red rectangle unspecified (empty), and say only that it will contain a p249 dependent reflector with this input glider stream and these output glider streams (without committing to any specific choice of the p249 dependent reflector):

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x = 121, y = 155, rule = LifeHistory
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Later, when choosing what to put inside the red rectangle, you might choose the "dependent" version of Silver's reflector -- or you might choose another p249 dependent reflector with same input/output(s) -- or you might decide to use an independent reflector that fits in the same box.
(You might block unneeded outputs by fishhooks placed inside the red rectangle, reducing the number of requirements on what can be used.)

[Scorbie]

I believe that depends on how you advertise the reflector.

I meant the current dependent reflector terminology cannot describe, for example, p249-251 dependent reflectors. Which I'm almost certain everyone thinks is a dependent reflector.

[confocaloid]

I believe that depends on how you advertise the reflector.

I meant the current dependent reflector terminology cannot describe, for example, p249-251 dependent reflectors.

IMO that's correct. A dependent reflector would be a reflector that works [is guaranteed to work] at a specific period N -- and is not guaranteed to behave in any specific way when the input stream is not a correctly timed uninterrupted period-N stream.
If you describe overclocked Silver's reflector occurring somewhere in circuitry as "p249 dependent reflector", you would imply that that part of circuitry always redirects uninterrupted period-249 glider streams (and consequently there are no signals/information passing through the reflector).
If you vary timing of individual gliders to transmit some information without breaking the overclocked reflector, then it is incorrect to describe it as "dependent reflector".

The page dependent reflector shows many examples of what I would alternatively describe as "glider gun engines supported by glider streams" -- they emit gliders at period N as long as input period-N glider stream comes in. Every unique engine of this kind is interesting to me.

"Engineered dependent reflectors" are interesting/useful in their own way, but they're a different kind of thing. There may be ways to use them beyond the advertisement "period-N dependent reflector" (but such uses would make devices that should not be described as dependent reflectors anymore).

Edit:

Which I'm almost certain everyone thinks is a dependent reflector.

No, I think those are overclocked reflectors. A dependent reflector is always "period N" for some specific N.

[Scorbie]

A dependent reflector would be a reflector that works [is guaranteed to work] at a specific period N -- and is not guaranteed to behave in any specific way when the input stream is not a correctly timed uninterrupted period-N stream.

I strongly disagree. I think dependent reflector should mean a reflector that reflects "dvgrn-signal" that depends on the next "dvgrn-signal" to be present. (Dvgrn signal used as a placeholder for whatever term it settles to)

Edit for context: I'm strongly disagreeing afaik this had been the original usage of the term.

[confocaloid]

A dependent reflector would be a reflector that works [is guaranteed to work] at a specific period N -- and is not guaranteed to behave in any specific way when the input stream is not a correctly timed uninterrupted period-N stream.

I strongly disagree. I think dependent reflector should mean a reflector that reflects "dvgrn-signal" that depends on the next "dvgrn-signal" to be present. (Dvgrn signal used as a placeholder for whatever term it settles to)

Well, I think the current definition of "dependent reflector" does not cover such devices, at least.
Personally, I think it shouldn't cover them -- they are different devices.

Without at least some restrictions / clarifications, it would become rather strange -- suppose the next input glider is required to come at some finite time later, but is not required to come before any specific time. It might arrive 100 ticks later or 10^9 ticks later or 10^10^9 ticks later, but it must arrive at some finite time. Would that make sense?
Would it make sense to say "dependent reflector" to describe a device that requires consecutive input gliders to be separated by the number of ticks divisible by 10, but does not place any further constraints? Etc.

Further, reflectors are only defined for spaceships (most commonly gliders). There are no "Herschel reflectors".

[Scorbie]

Well, I think the current definition of "dependent reflector" does not cover such devices, at least.
Personally, I think it shouldn't cover them -- they are different devices.

Whoops, I didn't expect you to reply so fast. Let me point out what I edited in in my last post:

Edit for context: I'm strongly disagreeing afaik this had been the original usage of the term.

Afair this was the lifewiki entry before the edit, right? Whether confusing or not I don't think you should alter the meaning of past or current usage of the terms. Assuming this is how this term has been used, I recommend leaving this as historical baggage and promote a new well-defined term?

[confocaloid]

As a matter of fact, I did not "alter the meaning" of terms.

Edit for context: I'm strongly disagreeing afaik this had been the original usage of the term.

In this edit, I copied the definition of "dependent reflector" from the page Reflector. I use that definition; it is not something invented by me. By that definition, a dependent reflector always has some specific period, and requires an input stream of the same period.

Edit: here is a copy of the definition:

A periodic reflector is described as dependent if it requires that the incoming stream repeat with the same period as the reflector, or independent otherwise.

[Scorbie]

As a matter of fact, I did not "alter the meaning" of terms.

A periodic reflector is described as dependent if it requires that the incoming stream repeat with the same period as the reflector, or independent otherwise.

My bad, I think I remembered false memories of seeing my suggested definition on the wiki. I have always thought dependent reflectors as the definition I suggested. This is because I'm used to the term "dependent conduit", and in my brain the concept of the adjective "dependent" carried over to the term "dependent reflector". I still think it's pretty possible that the author meant something similar to my suggestion but limited its usage to periodic reflectors. Because this is so surprising to me, what do you think of asking the community whether the quicksilver reflector is a dependent reflector or not?

[confocaloid]

As a matter of fact, I did not "alter the meaning" of terms.

A periodic reflector is described as dependent if it requires that the incoming stream repeat with the same period as the reflector, or independent otherwise.

My bad, I think I remembered false memories of seeing my suggested definition on the wiki. I have always thought dependent reflectors as the definition I suggested. This is because I'm used to the term "dependent conduit", and the concept of the adjective "dependent" carried over to the term "dependent reflector". I still think it's pretty possible that the author meant something similar to my suggestion but limited its usage to periodic reflectors. Because this is so surprising to me, what do you think of asking the community whether the quicksilver reflector is a dependent reflector or not?

In my opinion, asking the community is one of best ways to potentially resolve this -- as long as it does not boil down to an argument between few active members. The small set of members active at a given time cannot represent the community.

In this case, I believe even better would be to leave the current definition as it is. The current definition is written by someone who (I believe) has good knowledge of stable technology and reflectors in particular, and importantly the current definition is older than the attempted redefinition of "dependent reflector".

Given that this thread appears to me to be a misguided attempt to discuss multiple different issues at once, my suggestion would be to leave existing older definitions unchanged. That includes "dependent reflector" and "signal".

Edit: corrected/added a link.

[Scorbie]

The current definition is written by someone who (I believe) has good knowledge of stable technology and reflectors in particular, and importantly the current definition is older than the attempted redefinition of "dependent reflector".

(I think this made me think that the term is on the wiki) I found usage by another person who does have good knowledge of stable technology and reflectors, which coincides with my interpretation:

To me, 'dependent reflector loop' accurately describes this particular type of oscillator. The word 'signal' doesn't feature in 'dependent reflector loop', so even though I agree with confocaloid's point that these* dependent reflectors cannot reusably transmit information, I don't see why that should disqualify these oscillators from being called 'loops'.

*the overclocked Silver reflector, on the other hand, can transmit information, because there's freedom in the relative timings of gliders.

I also want to point out I'm not nitpicking to suggest my artificial argument, this term had a semantic meaning I have taken for granted for years, so I really want to make this clear. Also considering that the meaning of this term is the very topic of this thread, I think it's worth carrying out.

[confocaloid]

...
I also want to point out I'm not nitpicking to suggest my artificial argument, this term had a semantic meaning I have taken for granted for years, so I really want to make this clear. Also considering that the meaning of this term is the very topic of this thread, I think it's worth carrying out.

Well, I do agree that it would be nice to have this settled in a reasonable way. ("Reasonable" would imply that the issue would be somehow resolved, and not just hidden.) It's just that I, personally, don't believe / don't expect that it will be resolved now in this thread. I might be wrong on this.

Also, there's my opinion, and there are opinions by other members expressed here on the forum. And then there are current definitions, and sometimes versions of definitions, and multiple different interlinked issues.
When it is unclear what to do, my preference would be to keep the old definitions.

I don't expect these issues to be resolved in a satisfactory way now, or in near future. (I would be very happy to be wrong on this particular point.)

Edit:

(I think this made me think that the term is on the wiki)

The term is on the wiki, copied unmodified to the Dependent reflector article from the Reflector article.

[Scorbie]

...
I also want to point out I'm not nitpicking to suggest my artificial argument, this term had a semantic meaning I have taken for granted for years, so I really want to make this clear. Also considering that the meaning of this term is the very topic of this thread, I think it's worth carrying out.

Well, I do agree that it would be nice to have this settled in a reasonable way. ("Reasonable" would imply that the issue would be somehow resolved, and not just hidden.) It's just that I, personally, don't believe / don't expect that it will be resolved now in this thread. I might be wrong on this.

Also, there's my opinion, and there are opinions by other members expressed here on the forum. And then there are current definitions, and sometimes versions of definitions, and multiple different interlinked issues.

I don't expect these issues to be resolved in a satisfactory way now, or in near future. (I would be very happy to be wrong on this particular point.)

Since you pointed out that QuickSilver reflector is not a dependent reflector according to the current definition I cannot just move on ignoring things and keeping them ambiguous and I really would like to make this clear. That sentence can be made into a well defined proposition, so I think it's pretty easy to verify the community's opinions on this proposition. What do you think?

[confocaloid]

Since you pointed out that QuickSilver reflector is not a dependent reflector I cannot just move on ignoring things and I really would like to make this clear. That sentence can be made into a well defined proposition, so I think it's pretty easy to verify the community's opinions on this proposition. What do you think?

I think I already expressed my opinion above.
Assuming I did explain myself sufficiently clearly, of course feel free to do whatever you believe to be reasonable.

[Pavgran]

I would say that QuickSilver is not a dependent periodic reflector (it's obviously not periodic), but is a dependent stable reflector (it's locally-stable circuitry that puts constraint on what the input signals might be to allow it to continue functioning as a reflector). Maybe it's a good idea to reserve 'dependent reflector' only for periodic dependent reflectors, and use something like 'constrained reflector' for QuickSilver, but I'm fine either way, with slight preference to extending terminology instead of introducing new one in this case.

[confocaloid]

- In other words, if we define X as a reflector that requires the next active object to arrive at a..b generations, X and "dependent reflector" are different terms. viewtopic.php?p=165398#p165398

Maybe one should clarify whether "a..b generations" means relative to the timing of the previous input glider, or relative to how the glider would be timed in a period-N input stream.
The second option would allow e.g. periodic reflectors where each individual glider can be either aligned correctly or delayed by one tick.

[Scorbie]

Maybe one should clarify whether "a..b generations" means relative to the timing of the previous input glider, or relative to how the glider would be timed in a period-N input stream.
The second option would allow e.g. periodic reflectors where each individual glider can be either aligned correctly or delayed by one tick.

Since both options are a breaking change to the existing definition (edit: and both options follow the semantics of what I suggested above), I'll keep the poll as is and link to your comment about this ambiguity.

[Scorbie]

Writing a post on the poll thread made me think of an alternate wording. Since there is much debate of what it's reflecting, how about we make the term generic to sidestep this debate?

"A dependent X reflector is an X reflector that ..."
"A dependent reflector is any dependent X reflector for any X"

The wording is just what I came up with, but I hope you get the idea.

[confocaloid]

Writing a post on the poll thread made me think of an alternate wording. Since there is much debate of what it's reflecting, how about we make the term generic to sidestep this debate?

"A dependent X reflector is an X reflector that ..."
"A dependent reflector is any dependent X reflector for any X"

The wording is just what I came up with, but I hope you get the idea.

I don't think there is much debate on what reflectors are reflecting. By definition, reflectors reflect spaceships.

I don't see any need to redefine 'reflector', 'dependent reflector', 'signal'. Those are already defined in the correct way.

[confocaloid]

... I guess I shared a weird pattern for some thought, ...

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x = 143, y = 128, rule = LifeHistory
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19.4B2.11B.B$44.4B6.3A16.4B.14B2A$45.4B8.A8.26B2A$46.4B6.2A7.4BD23B$
47.4B5.5B.B2.4B3D21B$48.4B6.6B.4BDBD17B$49.4B4.14BD15B2A$50.25B2.2B2.
6B2AB.B$51.21B11.8B2A$50.20B15.4B.B2A$49.20B17.2B3.B$48.2A19B16.2B$
48.2A11B2.8B13.B2AB$49.11B5.B3.2A14.2A$51.11B7.A$51.4B5.2A8.3A$60.A
11.A$61.3A$63.A!

Here is a period-104 version of the oscillator:

Code: Select all

x = 131, y = 112, rule = LifeHistory
75.A$75.3A$66.A11.A$66.3A8.2A5.4B$69.A7.11B$52.2A14.2A3.B5.11B$51.B2A
B13.8B2.11B2A$52.2B16.19B2A$47.A3.2B17.20B$46.A2B.A3B15.20B$46.A7BAB
11.21B$47.A.A3BABA2B2.2B2.BA23B$50.5A10B2AC14B4.4B$50.B3A11B2ACBD4B.
6B6.4B$46.4B3A3B2A6BA2BDCD4B2.B.5B5.4B$46.3B2A5B2A6B4ABD4B7.2A6.4B$
45.2A2B2A13BAB2A5B8.A8.4B$45.2A14B.B.2B16.3A6.4B$46.B.11B5.3B17.A7.2B
AB$48.10B7.A2B.2A22.2B2A$49.12B3.A.A2B.A23.2A2B$48.14B2.2AB2.A25.4B$
49.13B6.A27.4B$49.13B2.5A.A26.4B$51.2B.4B3DB2.A4.A.A26.4B$55.4BD2B4.A
2.A.A27.4B$55.2B3D2B3.2A3.A29.4B$56.6B39.4B$56.7B39.4B$56.8B39.4B$57.
8B39.4B13.A$57.8B40.4B10.3A$56.6B2.B2A39.4B8.A$56.7B.BA.A23.2A14.4B7.
2A$57.6B4.A4.2A.A.2A11.B2AB14.4B3.5B$57.6B4.2A2.A2.2A.A2.A.2A.A4.3B
16.4B2.3B$57.6B7.A.A4.A.2A.A.2A5.B.B16.8BA7.2A$56.8B7.A.5A2.B8.5B17.
6B2A8.A$55.8B10.A4.AB2A6.6B18.2B4AB2AB3.B.A.2A$24.2A29.9B8.A2.BA.A.2A
4.8B18.2B2A2B2A2BA.4A2.A$24.A.A28.9B7.A.2BA.A2.13B19.B2ABA2B2A5B2.2A$
26.A4.2A21.10B7.2A.2BA5.13B17.2BA2BABA2BA2B3A$22.4A.2A2.A2.A19.10B11.
3B3.15B14.2AB.A4B2A3.2B.A$22.A2.A.A.A.A.2A18.5BA5B12.2B3.15B13.A.AB.
7B2.B3A$24.BABABA.A21.4BAB2A3B11.4B.17B12.A5.3BA4.A$25.B2ABA.A16.2A.A
5BABCA3B4.29B11.2A5.A2BA5.5A$26.2B.BA17.A.2A2.4B2CDB5.4BC11B2A13B16.B
ABA10.A$25.3B27.2B2D2BD3B2.4B3C9B2A14B2.2A10.4B9.A$16.2A6.4B28.10B.4B
CBC20B3.B2A2.A9.4B10.2A$17.A6.B2A3B26.17BC19B4.A.B2A9.4B$17.A.AB3.B2A
3B25.22B2.2B2.B3.6B5.A11.4B$18.2AB.10B23.19B14.4B2A5.3A7.4B$20.13B18.
2B.20B12.5B2A2B7.A5.4B$20.14B16.2C24B10.2A4.BA2B5.2A4.4B$20.15B15.2C
25B10.A5.4B4.9B$22.8B2.4B10.A4.27B6.3A7.4B5.6B$22.6B5.4B7.3A6.27B4.A
10.4B2.8B$21.9B4.4B5.A10.25B2C15.15B$20.4B4.2A5.2BAB4.2A10.24B2C16.
14B$19.4B5.A7.2B2A5B12.20B.2B18.13B$18.4B7.3A5.2A4B14.19B23.10B.B2A$
17.4B11.A5.6B3.B2.2B2.22B25.3B2AB3.BA.A$16.4B9.2AB.A4.19BC17B26.3B2AB
6.A$3.2A10.4B9.A2.2AB3.20BCBC4B.10B28.4B6.2A$4.A9.4B10.2A2.14B2A9B3C
4B2.3BD2B2D2B27.3B$2.A10.ABAB16.13B2A11BC4B5.BD2C4B2.2A.A17.AB.2B$2.
5A5.A2BA5.2A11.29B4.3BACBA5BA.2A16.A.AB2AB$7.A4.A3B5.A12.17B.4B11.3B
2ABA4B21.A.ABABAB$4.3AB2.7B.BA.A13.15B3.2B12.5BA5B18.2A.A.A.A.A2.A$3.
A.2B3.2A4BA.B2A14.15B3.3B11.10B19.A2.A2.2A.4A$3.3A2BA2BABA2BA2B17.13B
5.A2B.2A7.10B21.2A4.A$.2A2.5B2A2BAB2AB19.13B2.A.A2B.A7.9B28.A.A$A2.4A
.A2B2A2B2A2B18.8B4.2A.A.AB2.A8.9B29.2A$2A.A.B3.B2AB4A2B18.6B6.2ABA4.A
10.8B$3.A8.2A6B17.5B8.B2.5A.A7.8B$3.2A7.A8B16.B.B5.2A.A.2A.A4.A.A7.6B
$13.3B2.4B16.3B4.A.2A.A2.A.2A2.A2.2A4.6B$11.5B3.4B14.B2AB11.2A.A.2A4.
A4.6B$11.2A7.4B14.2A23.A.AB.7B$12.A8.4B39.2AB2.6B$9.3A10.4B40.8B$9.A
13.4B39.8B$24.4B39.8B$25.4B39.7B$26.4B39.6B$27.4B29.A3.2A3.2B3D2B$28.
4B27.A.A2.A4.2BD4B$29.4B26.A.A4.A2.B3D4B.2B$30.4B26.A.5A2.13B$31.4B
27.A6.13B$32.4B25.A2.B2A2.14B$33.2B2A23.A.2BA.A3.12B$34.2A2B22.2A.2BA
7.10B$35.BA2B7.A17.3B5.11B.B$36.4B6.3A16.2B.B.14B2A$37.4B8.A8.5B2ABA
13B2A2B2A$38.4B6.2A7.4BDB4A6B2A5B2A3B$39.4B5.5B.B2.4BDCD2BA6B2A3B3A4B
$40.4B6.6B.4BDBC2A11B3AB$41.4B4.14BC2A10B5A$42.23BAB2.2B2.2BABA3BA.A$
43.21B11.BA7BA$42.20B15.3BA.2BA$41.20B17.2B3.A$40.2A19B16.2B$40.2A11B
2.8B13.B2AB$41.11B5.B3.2A14.2A$43.11B7.A$43.4B5.2A8.3A$52.A11.A$53.3A
$55.A!

[wirehead]

Okay, so from what I understand, a dependent reflector is a glider reflector that explodes if it isn't fed a constant stream of input gliders.

In that state they really can only transmit information once: they signal the end of the input stream by exploding.

However, I thought: is there a dependent reflector that can accept gliders at multiple slightly offset input timings (i.e. if the period is p, it successfully accepts gliders at times t = p*n and t = p*n + k where 0 < k << p), and each input timing affects the output glider timing in the same way.

So you would actually be able to transmit a continuous stream of bits this way, by shifting the glider timings, even though if you omit any one glider the whole thing explodes (i.e. it's dependent).

Does something like this exist?

[confocaloid]

Okay, so from what I understand, a dependent reflector is a glider reflector that explodes if it isn't fed a constant stream of input gliders.

In that state they really can only transmit information once: they signal the end of the input stream by exploding.

However, I thought: is there a dependent reflector that can accept gliders at multiple slightly offset input timings (i.e. if the period is p, it successfully accepts gliders at times t = p*n and t = p*n + k where 0 < k << p), and each input timing affects the output glider timing in the same way.

So you would actually be able to transmit a continuous stream of bits this way, by shifting the glider timings, even though if you omit any one glider the whole thing explodes (i.e. it's dependent).

Does something like this exist?

AFAIK the word 'dependent' is usually used only for periodic dependent reflector reactions (emitting output gliders at a fixed schedule and supported by an input glider stream with the same period), like those shown on the page Dependent reflector.

There are engineered reflectors (e.g. an overclocked Silver's reflector) that can work when the separations between consecutive input gliders are restricted to a set of values. This is described as overclocking.

See also the posts by several people in the forum thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6099

[dvgrn]

AFAIK the word 'dependent' is usually used only for periodic dependent reflector reactions (emitting output gliders at a fixed schedule and supported by an input glider stream with the same period), like those shown on the page Dependent reflector.

This doesn't seem quite accurate. "Dependent reflector" has quite regularly been used as a description of overclocked Silver reflectors.

The poll results in the thread confocaloid linked to seem to indicate that, at best, there is no broad agreement that 'dependent' is usually used only for strictly periodic dependent reflectors. (There's some more discussion of this starting from the linked post.)

[confocaloid]

"Dependent reflector" has quite regularly been used as a description of overclocked Silver reflectors.

This is inaccurate. I cannot find prior uses of the phrase 'dependent reflector' in that way, before/outside this forum thread and the recent terminology-related discussion.
In the prior uses I can find, 'dependent reflector' refers to a periodic (period-N) elementary reaction that emits a period-N glider stream and is supported by a period-N glider stream.

[dvgrn]

"Dependent reflector" has quite regularly been used as a description of overclocked Silver reflectors.

This is inaccurate. I cannot find prior uses of the phrase 'dependent reflector' in that way, before/outside this forum thread and the recent terminology-related discussion.

That's true -- I'm not finding a lot of support for my "quite regularly" characterization, so I'll withdraw those two words. In describing the reasons for the poll, Scorbie pointed to an example of that usage --

- There is prior usage of quicksilver reflector included as dependent reflectorsviewtopic.php?p=163340#p163340. The current definition only allows quicksilver reflectors as dependent reflectors if it's used in a constant period stream.

This poll was made to check the community's opinion of the term "dependent reflector" coincides with this aspect of the LifeWiki definition.

-- and you quoted Pavgran's use of "dependent stable reflector" in the context of the QuickSilver Demonoid mechanism. But those were both from earlier this thread.

For the last decade or so I've certainly considered a Silver reflector to be a (somewhat specialized) edge-case example of a dependent reflector. It sounds like Pavgran and calcyman were thinking along similar lines. But that terminology apparently wasn't particularly useful in practice, in the course of building the QuickSilver Demonoid (or any other time)!